Liz: 0:00

The trick is finding someone who will also listen and take your, you know, personal suggestion of this is what I'm finding, and this is the homework I've done and can't we just try it? And sometimes they say yes, and so you're like, but were those other times still valid like whereas I still gaslit yesterday but today you're appropriate it's it can be really such a mind game,

Brienne: 0:20

I really feel like that's how it should work with medical professionals is that it really should be a collaborative experience because they have a lot of knowledge and expertise and things they can bring to the table and they kind of hold the keys to the gate when it comes to a lot of the testing and prescriptions and a lot of these other things that you want to have access to in order to have this you know, elevated sense of wellness. It should be collaborative, because it's still my body.

Philip Pape: 0:43

Welcome to the Wits& Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Before we start the episode, a quick disclaimer this episode may contain discussions of medical trauma, sexual assault and gaslighting within the healthcare system. We'll be talking about experiences of having serious medical issues dismissed or misdiagnosed by doctors and the long term impacts this has had on the well being of our guests. If you're sensitive to these topics, or feeling vulnerable, please listen with care or feel free to skip this episode. As always, if you're struggling with your physical or mental health, please reach out for support from a trusted friend, family member or qualified professional Wits & Weights community Welcome to another very special episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we'll be tackling a surprisingly common but extremely overlooked issue related to your health and fitness, the epidemic of medical gaslighting against women. Now far too many women, many of my own life that I've heard from have had their symptoms dismissed their concerns minimized and their intuition about their own bodies disregarded by the very professionals they turn to for help. This is what we mean by gaslighting, which is basically just not believing what someone says, and maybe trying to convince them they're crazy or ignorant or uneducated or misinformed. And the consequences of this gaslighting can be profound, leading to delay diagnoses, worsening health, and a very deep erosion of trust in the medical system and doctors in general. So today, I'm very excited to have invited on two women from our community, Elizabeth and Brianne, who have first hand experience with medical gaslighting, and will share their stories. Liz is a medical professional herself, she's going to share her journey of fighting for a hypothyroidism diagnosis at a young age when doctors didn't believe it was possible for that before. And Bree will detail her decade long battle with mysterious symptoms before finally getting to the root of her hormone issues. So through these experiences, we'll examine the I'll say insidious, disturbing and unbelievable, very unbelievable often ways that gaslighting can manifest in healthcare, the systemic biases that allow it to persist, and the toll it takes on women's physical and emotional well being. But it's not all negative. We're going to talk about the incredible resilience, self advocacy of women like Liz and Bree, who fought and fought and fought for the care they deserved. So if you've ever had a doctor make you doubt your own reality, if you've ever been made to feel like your pain wasn't real, or your concerns weren't valid, this episode is for you. I am not a health care provider. But as a nutrition coach, I want everyone listening to have complete agency and advocacy over their health. And I figured inviting a couple amazing women on to do it would be a better way to put that across them than me saying it. And if you're listening and you are a health care provider, we hope this conversation will be a call to action to ensure you're listening to hearing and validating what your patients are telling you. It's time for women to be heard, believed and properly cared for the way we all want to be. Now, let's meet and hear the women of the hour. Liz and Bree, welcome to the show. Ladies.

Liz: 4:11

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Philip Pape: 4:14

So I want to start off on a light note. Let's start with you, Liz No, no particular order. I just want to know how you found our community. And you know what, why, why you're here today.

Liz: 4:23

So I love podcasts. I have a wide prep plethora of podcasts that I listened to, and I was looking for something that would help me level up my nutrition and, you know, weight training and different information. And I love the evidence based perspective. I'm sort of a dork in that region. And so I want the real rationale behind things. And so I happen upon your podcast and yeah, no looking back now.

Philip Pape: 4:50

I love it. Yeah. And I seem to attract you know, curious people like you just are trying to figure it out and cut through all the noise out there which is just there's a lot of it right? a dork that appeals to beat dork nerd geek. I'll put me in those categories.

Liz: 5:04

I'm okay with it.

Philip Pape: 5:06

And same question to you, Bree. How did you find our community?

Brienne: 5:09

I'm glad to know I'm in nerd nerd territory i That's, that's my jam. Like all good podcasts love stories, they found your podcast through a podcast, or you are a guest on Karen Martel's podcast, which is called the hormone solution. Now it used to be called something else. Yeah. And I had found her podcast through searching for answers and a myriad of health issues that I wasn't getting answers to, in the way that I had hoped. And so when looking for my own information came across hers. And she had gotten kind of down the rabbit hole on a lot of her episodes, and then came across one where she had you on. And immediately it was, it kind of clicked for me because the idea of being evidence based not evidence bound, that's 100%, my jam and where I like to live I my research and data nerd. So that was very intriguing to me. And I knew that she was going on to your podcast as well. So it kind of followed my way on over there. And very quickly found like this was like, this was a good community. This was something that I could connect to, it felt very, very welcoming to be in a space that was based off of research and data and not bound to the party line, so to speak of the fitness and health world. Awesome.

Philip Pape: 6:15

Yeah, no, it's amazing. Yeah. Karen, Karen is great, too, by the way, and I know a lot of people kind of we found each other, or people found each other through that show. So we hooked up again recently. And then you and I had a call. It was a while back was probably like early 2023. Right? Something like that.

Brienne: 6:30

Yeah, I wouldn't say it was like summer fall of 2023. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 6:35

Okay, yeah. No, I can't I can't keep track of time. Okay, cool. So now that everyone's met you, we're gonna get into a little bit of gaslighting and stuff and what it looks like because I think I'm sure people are listening. Some folks are very experienced with what this means whether it's women or men or men supporting women. Others may be like, What is this? Because when we brought up the topic, I know I had a few people say, What are you talking about? What do you mean by gaslighting? And I think it happens a lot of people even when they don't have a term for it. So let's let's again, start with Liz, your your experience, right? Can you just share an overview of this experience with hypothyroidism, maybe how the doctors didn't initially believe it could be happening at your age, and we'll go from there. Yeah, so

Liz: 7:17

I was about eight years old, when I suddenly gained 20 pounds in the span of a year, which if you don't know, pediatric, or kids, that's a lot of weight, that probably be a lot of weight, even for an adult in a year. I also had some other symptoms I had thinning hair had a lot of cold sensitivity, I had dry hands that were so dry, they would crack and bleed. And I was eating and playing the same amount as my sister, who was three years older, and she had none of the symptoms that I did. And so fortunate for me, my mom is a nurse, and she actually also has Hashimotos hypothyroid itis. And she took me to the provider, you know, I was, you know, still like playing and running and trying to sort of keep up and cope. But she could see that I was struggling to and so she had her own suspicions. While it was unusual that you would have hypothyroidism, she encouraged the doctor to administer blood tests to see, you know, could that be the answer? And they were very adamant that it was more likely that I was doing something else outside of outside of what she was telling them, you know, could I be hiding candy? Could I be you know, doing something else that would be causing these, this awakening. And she was like, There's no way I know my kid. So you know, great to have a wonderful advocate on my side. And of course the nurse helps. Lo and behold, they finally did do some blood tests. And they found my TSH was over 100, which is pretty staggering. And so you know, fortunate enough that you just keep tagging, tagging them with questions, and I need an answer and being very persistent, helped get that diagnosis at that time.

Philip Pape: 9:00

Now, when I hear stories, I guess I mean, people shake their head, I shake my head every day when I hear stuff like, what what is it that? I mean, you're eight, right? So there's a certain trajectory when you're a kid, I mean, I have kids who are now 10 and 12. And yeah, there's the charts, right, the weight gain charts and stuff like that. So first question is, were you far off on that chart in terms of like an outlier? Or was it somewhat within the range? Potentially? I

Liz: 9:23

was definitely an outlier on the growth chart, or wait, yeah. Okay. And

Philip Pape: 9:28

how did they so without your mom having advocated for you, do you recall? Did she tell you the stories about did the doctors say this was an issue or bring it up as a concern in the first place? You

Liz: 9:40

know, I think that it was sort of like oh, your daughter's overweight and move on. versus you know, is there anything else going on that could be a problem and I it's funny because I think back to about you know, my hands were cracking and bleeding and they gave me lotion for it. They prescribed lotion for it for exactly the band aid for the pro problem when, you know, I continue to say that's really not helping, it's not doing anything like what else could it be? So definitely, there was a lot of ignoring all the signs that sort of you have to bring them together to get the clinical picture of me as a patient at eighth. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 10:16

And ask questions too, because I could imagine, like, I've had clients who will, you know, say, x is x is happening. And I'm thinking, okay, the root cause could be, you know, A, B, or C, but let me ask questions, at least to get the data. Who did did the doctor ask questions? Or was it just boom? Like, check the box? Let's move on. Yeah,

Liz: 10:34

I recall a lot of box checking, you know, not really willing to get in depth on the answers. And I think, you know, that's part of a larger discussion about like, medical care in general. And I think that's why we find a lot of medical gaslighting that, do we even have the time as providers to stop and ask questions. Is that built into their day? No. So they're trying to, you know, survive. And I think that we as patients are the victims of that sometimes, you

Philip Pape: 11:02

make a great point that doctors are a product of a system, right? And, and the system may be the root cause. But if that system exists, we need to be aware of it to know what the consequences for us and maybe, maybe not rely so much on what we think their doctors can and will do, and maybe just assume it's not going to happen, sadly, right? Because that's the state we're in? What was the impact of finally getting the diagnosis, then you got the appropriate diagnosis, they finally did the blood work, which I'm curious if this kind of blood work should just be done on a regular basis. But I understand you don't want to like over test for things. What was the impact from that point, like, just tell us about that?

Liz: 11:39

Staggering. So you know, the different than, like, feeling sluggish, and tired and cold, and you know, having no appetite, even when you want to go run and play and do all of those things? You know, it was a big difference for me as a child at eight. And it has been an interesting trajectory over the last 30 something or 20, something years trying to continue to stay well, because hypothyroidism can be such a roller coaster. So I feel like it's sort of set me on a path very early to, you know, be in tune with my body and understand what feels good and what feels not good for me. And really being able to just kind of keep getting better along the way has, it's made all the difference. Awesome.

Philip Pape: 12:22

Okay, I want to own a turn a brief story, and then kind of go back and forth. And you're juggling to both of you here with the two stories, but what what will be interesting to see is the similarities. And then also, when I come back to you, Liz, we'll probably get into, you know, later on, like, how can the listener benefit specifically with understanding things like hypothyroidism, which is quite common, and maybe even Hashimotos? Since you said, your mom had that, and we get into that. So Bree, you mentioned that you had like almost a decade of gaslighting Share, share with us the symptoms you had, how the doctors responded things like that? Well,

Brienne: 12:54

for starters, I have had, she's also. So there's, there's definitely going to be a lot of overlap. And it kind of actually ends up playing into a lot of the gaslighting that I experienced, it took a long time, I come from a long genetic line of Hashimotos, but was not acknowledged as anything auto immune for a really, really long time. And then once it finally did, that actually ended up kind of being the bucket that a lot of stuff got poured into it, a lot of the medical professionals that I was interacting with was like, Oh, well, it's probably just Hashimotos, it's probably just that. And it really delayed getting help. So for context, I don't want to get into all of the details of the other side of this. I'm glad you have a disclaimer up front. But there was some trauma almost 10 years ago, that my family and I went through where we were involved in a live shooting event that I don't need to get into the details on but we were very rapidly moved out of the place that we were in, we were kind of put into a safe zone where we've lived for the last almost 10 years now. And very rapidly after that happened, the kind of trauma that experienced just flipped my health on its head. And I had already been managing Hashimotos. And I'd already at that point, I'd already been diagnosed celiac as well. So I had gone gluten free. Like I was doing a lot of the things I had been feeling a lot better for a while at that point. And then this event happens. And everything flipped upside down. And within six months, I gained 85 pounds. Yeah, and again, it could just get chalked up to it's, it's your house you use like obviously this has gotten out of out of control, and you must be depressed. And so you're probably just eating more than you realize, and you're probably not moving as much as you should be. And it really just always got shocked into that. And then very rapidly that it also became, well, if you lost weight, you'd probably feel better, which is like the non stop that I got from medical professionals over and over and over and over again. Even my thyroid specialists that I was seeing for the Hashimotos like well, you know, have you tried maybe doing a little bit more of this or a little bit more of that and

Philip Pape: 14:55

just Just Eat more, eat less move more.

Brienne: 14:57

Exactly. I mean doesn't always just come down to that like It's just that easy, of course, of course. And it really felt like I was constantly being dismissed. And when, like you were saying was, I feel like when you have some of these kinds of chronic illnesses, especially an autoimmune disorder, you get really in tune with your own body. And you kind of know, when something's off when something's wrong. And when you've had to advocate for your own health for long enough, he's paid a lot of attention to those kinds of things. And the number of times that I would sit in front of, you know, a primary care physician or my thyroid specialist, or you name it kind of medical professional, or even, like fitness trainers or whatever, and be told, Well, it's probably like, Are you tracking what you're eating? Have you paid attention to, like, maybe you need carbs a little bit more, and, you know, like, it was always those kinds of responses, and it was just chalked up to these other things. You know, maybe maybe we'll play a little bit with your medication. But, you know, this, this really is probably that you aren't doing what you should be doing. And it just was very dismissive. And it I knew something else was wrong. I knew something had snapped or broken somewhere in that process. Because you don't just gain a five pounds in six months, for no reason. No, like medical tracking reads like there's there's something there. There's something. Right?

Philip Pape: 16:14

Yeah, yeah, most people gain all their weight in the holidays, from obvious things. Yeah.

Brienne: 16:19

And the effort it would take to gain 85 pounds in the holidays like that would be remarkable. That would be like somebody should get a trophy if they were capable of that, because it's just really not something that happens that easily. So it was very dismissive for years and years and years, and I changed healthcare providers. And I changed, I even changed insurance at one point, and I felt like I was chasing, chasing, chasing. And I had learned early on with the Hashimotos experience that I really did have to advocate for my own health, but was in a not awesome headspace after all of those events have taken place. And so advocacy becomes very, very difficult when you're in that kind of a state anyway, and I had a lot of social anxiety that was going on, and a lot of other things that had kind of kicked up in that trauma situation, that made it very difficult to do the work to advocate for myself, because I didn't feel like confronting physicians or other health care professionals to try to fight for what I felt like I needed, I just knew that it wasn't, they weren't giving me what I needed. And a lot of that just you know, was kind of shut down and was like, Well, fine, I'm just going to conveniently cancel that appointment. And then I'll see if I can make one with another person and see what they get. And then it would be the same thing over and over and over and over again. And it really wasn't until not long before, long before I found your podcast. And a lot of it was related to Karen's podcast, but some of the other literature that I had come across again, data and research person, so I was the person in the pandemic, who had like the stack of medical journals on the bedside table, you know, just for funsies. So I don't mind reading through a lot of that stuff, or getting into the nitty gritty. And it just the consistency that I was coming across it like, there's something here with the adrenals. There's something here with the hormones. And when I finally got to that answer, I had already done so much. I'm not afraid of the hard work. So when it was things like well, maybe it's maybe your sleep is a problem and was like cool, I will get a sleep coach, I will retrain myself on how to sleep properly, because I wasn't getting enough sleep, and didn't have a great understanding of how much sleep I actually needed. So I did that. And that didn't fix anything. And then was like, Well, maybe it's adrenal is maybe my stress is that issue, because I got told that one a lot by doctors, you just need to stress a little left. Right, right. You know, just you know, it's like when you're really upset, and somebody says Calm down, because that always works. And don't be depressed. Just yeah, don't be anxious. Have you thought happier thoughts? Yeah, it's it was in that vein. And so I, I did some stuff that was actually very helpful with stress. And we saw the reaction with the adrenal testing that I was getting done when I had done some training and transcendental meditation. And I actually had done some hypnotherapy. I mean, like, I'm just literally willing to try anything I have long since gone past pharmaceutical options. I was like, you name it, I'm trying it. Let's just see if it works. And I did see good results with like cortisol and things like that, when I did that, but it still didn't fix the issue. So then I got medically cleared to start exercising again, which I had been a little bit restricted on. And, you know, I sit on do chronic cardio, because that's not great for my system at all, but started adding in, you know, resistance training, and I was in the pool, and I was doing reformer Pilates, and I was like I was literally like six days a week. And nothing was changing. And so I looked into gut health and it was like, Alright, then I tested positive for SIBO. So let's do treatment for that. So I did treatment for that. And we got to where I was testing negative on it. Nothing was changing. So I felt like it went round and round and round and round and round. And every time that I thought I found an answer. It wasn't an answer until it finally was like, Well, what about hormones? And I got tested for them and I had no detectable levels of estrogen or progesterone in my system. And my testosterone was at a nine c Which is pretty low. So it was like bells all went off was like, is it this is it this is finally like this has got to be it. This has this interacts with all of these same areas that I've been trying to address. And when I took it to my doctor, when those results came back, and I was like, alright, let's sit down, I've done my homework, I've done my research, I looked into this thing, I looked into this thing. Let's talk about how we're going to address this. And she stopped me mid sentence and said, I'm very upset that you went and did that. It was like that I went and did what she's like the wind and you looked at other medical information, and that you looked at other doctors recommendations on this, I'm very upset. This is my area of expertise. And I'm really upset that you did that. I was like flabbergasted because I've worked with this doctor for years, and did not see that coming at all shut down the entire conversation. And when I asked if I could retest it a month, and maybe we'll just come back to it. Then she said, I'm never testing your hormones. Again, this is not the issue. This is not a problem. We're not going to be talking about this again, and wanted to go back to talking about thyroid issues instead. And it was devastating. I

Philip Pape: 21:02

don't even know where to start. I don't even know where to start. Because Oh, I mean, women in my life might live very close to me male and female doctors, I've heard stuff similar to that where they'll say, Well, you know, you're too young, or no, it's not the hormones, it's something else. And B you actually got tested had a reasonably low numbers, obviously. And you had tried everything else. And here, here's the sanctimony the arrogance, right, this dot like that's, I'm feeling it right from the start.

Brienne: 21:31

Well, in so much of that thing you get where it's like you tell like No, no, I've done this I've done I'd been tracking everything for so long. And like, I can show it to them. But if it's like, but did you really like? No, I really, really did. I've been tracking my sleep for seven years, I've been tracking my food for four and a half, I'd like Like, I've got all of this on paper in writing, and I'm that person. So like, it's all there and to have it just utterly dismissed. And then to have it in test results. You know, I have those, I have those test results in my you know, my shirt system and all of that, like it's there. It's in black and white and have it just dismissed to be told. And then and now we're not even going to talk about this. This is a non issue. I was 38 years old at the time, and it was like, your hormones are not a problem. We're not even gonna talk about it. It's like, no, yeah.

Philip Pape: 22:17

And honestly, and maybe Liz can chime in here as medical professional, but is there like, Are there books that you know, you go through training, and it's basically root cause decision tree type books. And I asked this because one time when I was in my rheumatologist offices because I have a minor connective tissue autoimmune thing myself. I was looking, I was just snooping through their stuff. And there was a big book there. And I actually looked up, like my condition. And it's it. It was like if this do this, if this this if this do this. And I was like, Wait a minute. Is that what they're doing? Like? Liz? I'm just curious China,

Liz: 22:47

there are some sub specialty texts like that, that kind of give you guidelines as far as treatment. So yeah, it can be kind of prescriptive like that. But oftentimes, there's some anecdotal things that happen to like, what did your What did the person who taught you, you know, teach you about it? And so that's a lot of the experiential learning of healthcare, too. But yes, sometimes some of it is very simple and straightforward. And if this then do that, and so it always amazes me when providers kind of can't help take that next step, that really, we're coming to them with a have A plus B equals C, you know, I have a helped me get B and then it'll equal c, right? Sometimes that can be that simple. But

Philip Pape: 23:28

yeah, and this, this doctor of yours free to just saying that, like, how dare you get tested elsewhere? Like, I'm just I'm not sure where that comes from? Oh, no, I wonder how many doctors are like that. I mean, I've heard a lot of stories. Well,

Brienne: 23:43

in what's wild is she was actually the one who did she actually was the one who ordered the first tests when I had requested them. Yeah, and then wouldn't do him again to the aisle further testing. After that I've had to get done myself. I hadn't done it. I had him read done a month later, because of course, the gaslighting part of the kind of insidious part of it is that it really starts to make you doubt yourself. And even though that I've done this, and I've lived, I live in this body, every day, and I've had to advocate for myself. And I've had to kind of pay a lot of attention to how I'm feeling and what works and what doesn't for a very long time, and to have that reaction. And to know something is not right. But then to immediately doubt my own lived in my own body experience. And if that was real, because of this reaction from you know, a professional. That was like, I finally had to then go out of pocket to go get retested a month later, because I was like, Maybe Maybe there was something wrong with the test, maybe, like, maybe I am missing something. I'm not a doctor. So you know, maybe I'm wrong here. And they came back exactly the same a month later, you know, it was confirmed and it was but I had to go do that out of pocket because she would not talk about it ever again.

Philip Pape: 24:46

Right. And I understand a lot of hormone treatment and testing does have to be done out of pocket. I've experienced that as well. And you talked a couple times now about the friction we have against even self hack of advocacy, right? The friction like first of all, if you're not Have the right headspace. And you're trying to trust these professionals. Secondly, just the system itself and the healthcare and the financials. It goes on and on. And probably third, I mean, there's a whole long list of like, because we are not the experts, we're questioning how much should we internet Doctor ourselves, right. And I'm coming to find talking to you here and others that we should doctor the hell out of ourselves. Like, basically just assume doctors know nothing, but then collaborate and correlate, you know, against stuff, they know,

Unknown: 25:32

that most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgement, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help. And Phillip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 26:17

I know we had our chat, and then I know you found Karen, like, Where was this? Was there a spark somewhere specifically with the hormones that that got you on that track that people listening can say, okay, maybe I can try that.

Brienne: 26:29

I mean, I was noticing the correlation between some of these, because there was already deep diving on podcasts and books and a lot of different opportunities to learn more about what is it that I'm experiencing? And how does that align with like what this could potentially be? Because it wasn't, it wasn't just adrenals, it wasn't just an issue of cortisol, it was not just an issue of sleep, it wasn't just an issue of what I was eating, and how much and how much I was working out. And so in that process of diving into what could the answer be, when you start hearing things in the hormone world about a lot, frankly, a lot of symptoms that can sound a little bit more like the thyroid issues where you've got brain fog, and you've got trouble sleeping, and you've got, you know, belly fat. And I mean, everybody loves talking about meadow belly and all of that stuff, you start to see some correlations, where it's like, okay, this is, this is what I'm experiencing. So maybe let's just find out, maybe, let's test and that was, it was a very like, light intro to when I went to that doctor the first time and like, I don't know, I'm curious, and I am getting closer to 40. And there's already fertility issues when you have autoimmune thyroid disorder. And I've got two kids, and I wasn't looking to add to that number. But my sister had lost, she'd had a miscarriage and lost the baby late term. And so it was just kind of Top of Mind of like a and let's just, let's just see where things are at and an asinine gotten that testing when it came back is not detectable, it's like, okay, so this is clearly a problem. So treatment probably would make a really big difference. And to then be immediately rejected on being able to go further on treatment, it was the last time I had an appointment with that doctor. But I had to find, and I had to find other care, because I didn't have the option. It's very expensive, I didn't have the option of paying out of pocket for full hormone treatment. As it is I even through insurance, I still go through a compound pharmacy for the treatments that I use. And it's still really expensive. And I think it's really unfortunate that I think that that's probably a pretty big barrier for treatment for a lot of people. Because it has been a night and day experience once I started to get on actual treatment for all three hormones that I'm having replaced. Got

Philip Pape: 28:30

it. Yeah. And I've heard, you know, you would think there's a simple argument can be made that if it's so profound, for women, for lots of women who probably have hormone imbalances, why doesn't insurance cover it, but then I think the cynical and maybe realistic answer is that there's more money in the pharmaceuticals, perhaps for treating sickness? I don't know, or it's just the system set up that way, right. Like, I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist. But you know, let's, let's go to I'm skeptical of everything. So that's how it works. Let's go back to Liz, like, Do you have any thoughts on anything we just said first, and then before I go to another question.

Liz: 29:05

So as a medical professional, Mike, my question is always, if you're gonna run a test, it should impact what you're going to do next grade, it should have some sort of impact on the treatment options you're exploring. Otherwise, why are you doing the test if it's not going to inform the next step for the patient? So if you ever encounter that, I would say the best advice I have is run from that provider. Because, you know, why are you charging my insurance for a test that means nothing to you that you don't value? The data from? Like, that's a very big red flag to me. And I know we're probably going to talk about that. But, um, you know, incredible amount of homework that you do. And I think reading studies on a Friday night is a very exciting, right and I so, you know,

Philip Pape: 29:47

either add that to stress relief or to sleep pack, like one or the other for her

Liz: 29:51

one or the other. Right? So, I think an incredible job that Bree did just advocating for herself and, and yeah, so unfortunate. that we are all experiencing this. What?

Philip Pape: 30:02

You know, I wonder if a doctor asked. So I've heard doctors will who won't even get the tests, ordered the tests because you're 38 or whatever, like, as if that's some, there's a magic number you have to get to like 50 or whatever. That that's one thing that comes to mind. But the other is, you're right. If she had the test, was she hoping that the numbers would be good enough that she could just tell you? Okay, let's move on to the next thing, you know, just speculating if that was what it was. You mentioned red flags. Liz. So, I mean, how about you? What were some other red flags on the way? And again, I know it was, we're talking about when you were young, specifically, or was there another situation later on as well? More recently? Yeah,

Liz: 30:40

I like that. It's been the roller coaster of healthcare. And I think we've sort of touched on that with Hashimotos, especially, but I have a primary care provider that I really value. And I appreciate. And she's done a phenomenal job of, you know, letting me participate in care and really interact with me. And so recently, I went to her office and, you know, again, starting to feel some symptoms again, can we get a blood test? It's been a little bit. And those results were sort of borderline, which for someone with Hashimotos. It's like, okay, great. What does that mean? What do we do with that, but you're having symptoms, write symptoms should really drive sort of what are we going to do for you. And so she had also been having this conversation with me about, oh, you're starting to sort of edge towards overweight, your BMI is escalating, we really need to be mindful about those things. And you really need to work harder to lose weight. And I said, you know, here's some of the things I'm doing, what exactly different would you have me do? And she was like, oh, no, you're doing great. Keep on the same path. So when this came up, I said, so it's borderline and you tell me, I'm gaining weight? Why wouldn't we tweak my medication? She was like, Oh, sure, let's do that. So it was sort of this, like, it's gaslighting. And then it's also, the trick is finding someone who will also listen and take your, you know, personal suggestion of this is what I'm finding, and this is the homework I've done. And can't we just try it? And sometimes they say yes, and so you're like, but were those other times, still valid, like, whereas I still gaslit yesterday, but today, you're appropriate, it's it can be really such a mind game. And so for me and other medical experiences that I've had, and I think, you know, the OB GYN is another one for a lot of women where we get gaslighting. And belittling language, to me is a lot of what I see, I see it in peers at the hospital that I work with, or you see it, you know, in my own medical care that, is it just this or could it be, you know, this belittling language that sort of diminishes your experience? Like Bree was saying, it makes you second guess your own lived experience. That's a big one for me. And I think also, when providers act frustrated and angry, that's a big red flag to me, you know, my care, my lived experience, what I feel well is should never anger a provider. And that, to me, a huge red flag of, you know, if mean, eating something is going to interact with, you know, how you're going to interact with me, then I don't want that provider to be caring for me and giving them that that time. And that To be frank, give them my money, either.

Philip Pape: 33:16

Yeah. So, so much, so much of what you say I've seen it firsthand with people. And you're right, that it can be even worse when it almost seems like the doctors going along with you. Like you said, I think what you were saying is that your current doctor is kind of maybe better than the average, but maybe not quite where you wish they were because she waited for you to take action and mention what you wanted to do. And she's like, Yeah, okay, fine, almost almost patronizing. Lee, right. Yeah. Yeah. You literally language. Okay. And then yeah, when fighters are frustrated, angry, I mean, I don't know, as a nutrition coach, like, I just want to be a detective and figure it out? And if I don't know, let's figure it out. So I don't understand where that attitude comes from in the medical industry. Do you see it more often than not? And is it because of the training? Is it because of medical school? Like are you do what do you know where that comes from?

Liz: 34:06

I think there are a lot of providers that go out into the world and get, you know, medical training and knowledge because they want to help people and they do have them that. But I think there is a certain point where ego does come into play. And when they don't know the answer, and they can't help and they can't fix, which is all they've been know trained and taught to do, that sometimes it can be a threat to their ego. And so I think there are wonderful providers out there. And I think there are providers that are absolutely threatened by not having the answer. And unfortunately, you know, I think that can come into play.

Philip Pape: 34:39

I love your positivity. I mean, that is I like that you keep coming back to hey, there are gonna be good apples out there. I agree. It doesn't necessarily excuse that how prevalent bad actors are, when you compare it to maybe other industries or something? I'm not putting that on you at all. Oh, man. Something came to mind when you said that. And what was it? I don't know. Let's keep going here. Bri did you want to anything because I can definitely get into more specific questions as we go forward.

Brienne: 35:04

I fully agree with everything you're saying was, I think that those are a lot of the really big red flags, those that kind of being dismissed to being angry being resistant to a collaborative experience. And I really feel like that's how it should work with medical professionals is that it really should be a collaborative experience, because they have a lot of knowledge and expertise and things they can bring to the table. And they kind of hold the keys to the gate, when it comes to a lot of the testing and prescriptions and a lot of these other things that you want to have access to, in order to have this, you know, elevated sense of wellness, it should be collaborative, because it's still, it's still my body, still my life, it's still all the things that I have to live through and go through on a daily basis. And so when you don't have a collaborative healthcare professional that you're working with, that's really, that should really be a flag right there. Ego is certainly a huge flag too. I feel like when you find a physician, whatever their specialty, whatever their capacity in the medical field, when you find one that is collaborative, and you find one that is open, that encourages you to do I feel like it's more of a green flag. But when they encourage you to do a lot of your own research and provide you with resources that you can dive deeper on, they are worth their weight in gold, like you hold on to them as much as you can, because I do feel like they are unfortunately quite rare. And when you don't have that collaborative spirit, that's that's a huge red flag.

Philip Pape: 36:23

That's a really good one for listeners to take home. A couple of things come to mind, Bree and Liz was first it's it sounds ironic that doctors pretty much get paid whether they fix your issue or not. Right. And that almost seems ironic, because then well, maybe it isn't maybe it is because of that they just want to move to the next thing. Or somebody who's incentivized to do that to actually address the issue without would put more into it. But then Bri your comment about if someone is open to you doing the research, right. I have heard I've had personal experience with with this two very different gi doctors one who I had a minor issue with my voice was getting hoarse, which is a podcaster was a nightmare. My voice is getting hoarse. And I had been taking this steroid inhaler thing for esophageal, esophageal thing. And I said and I Googled it, and it said, steroid induced hoarseness that oh, okay, let me stop taking it. And it went away. And I went back on it came back and went up. So I told the doctor, I did this three times I'm going away. Anon, that's not a thing. That doesn't exist, you know, two different doctors actually a GI doctor, and what do you call your ears and throat? So it's a thing like I did it. Okay. All right. Well, that's fine. You could. And then I had to say like, Can we do a different steroid or different options? Sure. Sure. We can. It's the same thing that yeah, insane. And then there was another doctor, I wish I still had him. He was my primary in the old town I used to live in who taught students and you know, he was older. So you think a lot of times you old school doctors are kind of like stuck in their ways. And he was always I was bringing in papers and stuff. He's like, Yeah, that's great. I heard about it. It just came out last week. I think I think we should try that. Like, let's do that, you know. So for those listening, like, these are good green and red flags to look for. So thank you for bringing all those up. And then I guess, you know, if someone feels that they're experiencing gaslighting right now they're listening this insane. Okay, I recognize those signs, those flags, like what's the first bit of advice, you know, one or two things they might do to take action today and move in the right direction? Where to go first? I mean,

Brienne: 38:30

I'll jump in on it certainly my one of the most these more recent experiences with this, the hormone situation. It was when that happened when I got shut down and dismissed. And this is a full stop, we're not moving any further. That to me is like, I'm done. Okay. And I remember having like, it's funny, because you talked about the OBGYN field and how this happens too much there, too. I feel like this happens a lot to women who are pregnant and are, especially when you get closer to labor and delivery. You get a lot of this. And I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine, who was she was just passed. I mean, like a day passed the 40 week mark, and her doctor was really, really pushing on like, you were just going to have to induce because you're at my favorite phrase, you're a geriatric pregnancy. So we have to induce you, we have to induce you, and I'm having a conversation here of like, they're not going to show up to your house with an ambulance and force you in it. Like, you can just say, No, you don't have to do that. And I feel like every now and then I have to remind myself the same thing is true for my own health. And the doctors I'm working with, I don't have to stay with them. I don't have to keep working with them. I don't have to take their advice. I don't have to take the medication. It's like you're talking about going on and off to kind of test and learn on your own with this like steroid inhaler. You don't have to just do what they say they don't get to make all the decisions and own your life. You can walk away and so if you're experiencing some of this, cancel the appointment, find a new doctor. You can like you don't you don't owe an explanation. Nothing. You can just move on On, and you don't have to confront if you don't want to, if you feel like it more power to you, I'm not a terribly confrontational person that gets hot and bothered if I do that. So I prefer not to and I'm totally fine just being like, Okay, then I'm now done. And I will cancel the next appointment. And I will say thank you for your time, and I will leave and I just won't come back again. And I'll find somebody else.

Liz: 40:20

I think that's a great point spree. And I think some other things, just one other thing that I would really add to that is to sort of recap the conversation and rephrase it and send it back to them and say, like, Am I understanding this correctly? So for example, you know, you got this hormone testing done, my estrogen and my progesterone were completely now. And you're saying now that we should not treat that? Is that correct? Am I understanding that correctly? And can you help me understand why, you know, sometimes I think it definitely puts the burden on the patient, right? That's not fair that we have to then argue for healthcare and say, like, you know, go above and beyond to keep arguing for what we think is right. And we know to be right for ourselves. But I think sometimes it does sort of gut check them to say, Oh, wait, that actually doesn't make sense. Now that you've said it back. Maybe I can come up with something else. Or I think also saying, Well, this is one console that I'm doing. And I'm I'm looking for other providers who would also be experts in this field. So I'm going to take your recommendation of doing nothing, and I'll go see what another provider has to say, because I think it's very transparent to say, that's not an option for me doing nothing is not going to help me be well. And that's my goal. That's why I'm here. So you know, I think you can be transparent, you don't have to be I don't like to be confrontational, either. But I think, you know, sticking up for yourself is, is it's hard. And sometimes I just feel like we have to say, say something.

Philip Pape: 41:43

Yeah, you're a pro. You're a pro at this. I love that. I love the wording. Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying this? Is that correct? I mean, just that's it, right? Because then if they're like, Yeah, you know, what, why are you telling me if my hormones have dropped to nothing? I'm doing nothing? Is that what you're saying? We just do. And walk? Yeah, right.

Liz: 42:02

And I feel like I advocate for patients all the time in the hospital. Like, I feel like I've gotten really good at saying, Okay, this is the result, you're telling me, that's really what you want to do. And, and so sometimes it does jar them into that, oh, I should do something

Philip Pape: 42:15

about that. Right. And for the listener listening in Advanced Practice, practice, nurse. I don't know, I don't know if this is just a perception. But it seems like nurses, PAs, like anybody other than doctors, for some reason seem to care more just on average. If that's what you've experienced in the field, I

Liz: 42:32

feel like as a nurse, our worldview is a little bit more holistic, we care about the whole person, not just maybe the dataset in front of us. But what does that also mean and the grander scheme of that patient. And I feel like we being a nurse, you have to advocate for your patient, that's one of the best and hardest parts of being a nurse. So I definitely think that a lot of people get into that profession to help people. And it's a lot easier to start as a nurse or a PA than it is as a doctor to so it helps remove those barriers. And I think that's, that's part of why I like so many of those providers when I seek out care, too. Yeah,

Philip Pape: 43:06

that's true. And then that leads me to thinking, Okay, if people are looking for another provider today, we have a lot of resources, right? Even word of mouth on Facebook, like, like a, I'm looking for a doctor who works with people who train with barbells, who's a lifter himself or something, you know, like, where is that? And then people will chime in, although I did that once. And then somebody else said, Well, he's not a doctor, because he's a PA. And I'm like, Oh, I think I do want to see this guy. You know, because it's these. It's this elitism around the letter sometimes. Hey, what do you guys think about holistic and functional doctors? Because especially in the hormone world, it almost seems like that's one of the only ways to get somebody who wants to solve the problem with you. What do you guys think about that? Maybe three or less?

Brienne: 43:50

Yeah, I grew up in a home that was very respectful of the medical professional and like medical professionals in general. And that's a good thing. And a bad thing. Sometimes, I think it's part of why when, especially when I was first trying to get a lot of the treatment after after the shooting had happened. And there was a lot of other issues that it kicked up with that and I went the traditional methods, and you know, had the anti anxiety medication and had the depression medication and had all of these other things that were just like the very traditional routine and weren't working. And I think it took I had a conversation with a good friend who had kind of like, sat me down and had a real heart to heart conversation of like, look, sometimes those things work for the majority of people and sometimes you aren't the majority of people and sometimes you need to go move outside of the traditional accepted haves in find another option and maybe you'll find something that works for you. And I felt like that kind of unshackled me in a lot of ways, which is how I ended up going to other pathways and things I probably honestly never would have considered before. And then they worked to were really helpful. And it was like, oh, there's an entire other world out here. And I'm still this is part of why I was so attracted to a lot of the stuff that you say felt Like I still care about there has to be data and research. One of my absolute favorite phrases like literally gonna probably buy the t shirt that comes from a different podcaster. He constantly says it in his podcast where he says, who I'm gonna have to say this correctly. Think Critically, Google competently? Should I love that? That's like a mantra that I can like now live by to think critically and Google competently because I'm not afraid to step out of the lane. Now I've worked with functional medical medical doctors, I've worked with the advice given from medical professionals, but I'm not directly their patient aren't because they've written books or stuff, but because they aren't getting access in the mainstream spaces. And just having conversations, people who maybe have gone through it before and say, Look, I don't know, this one worked for me, why don't you try it, and allowing yourself to kind of experiment on your own self, when you're not getting the help with the traditional routes. Anyway, opening all of that up was really, really huge for me, and it's what moved the needle. And it's what eventually got me to a completely different side of health in my own life. I mean, when I finally got hormone treatment, I didn't start hormone therapy until March of last year. So we're coming up on a year. And it took a little while to kind of dial in those dosages of what I you know, get it all working and clicking on all the things that my body needed. And like, almost as soon as we got it, nailed it by June of last year, not that it was all about weight, because it was mostly about how I felt but the got 85 pound weight gain that had been stuck with me for nine years. All of that has been gone since by December, like literally like six months on six months off. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 46:28

Change any of the other lifestyle. It was already dialed in. Yeah, all

Brienne: 46:31

the other stuff was was I was already doing all the other things anyway was a good part about I guess, doing that for no reward. But getting to the other side of that where it's like, oh, wait, maybe maybe if you do go out of the lane a little bit, there's something to that, and being open to it. Still, you know, thinking critically googling competently. But you can find other options that are that will work. That will actually mean something, do something shipped something, and you don't have to be stuck to the traditional paths.

Philip Pape: 46:57

Love it. I'm glad I asked that. Because yeah, I think people are wondering about that doesn't have to be a doc, you know, a traditional doctor, definitely not. So Liz, do you want to add to that,

Liz: 47:06

I want that phrase cross stitched on something, really, I want to say, I think there's so much value in complementary and alternative medicine, I think there's, you know, it would be foolish to just think that, you know, medicine prescriptions are the only way to be healed and to be well and to be healthy. And so I think acupuncture and chiropractic medicine and vitamins and supplements and, you know, healthy lifestyles and sunshine and grounding and putting your feet in the dirt. Like there's so many different ways that wellness can be enhanced. And I think if you can use all of it, I think it can just only make you better. And often more well,

Philip Pape: 47:43

you know, what you may have made me think of here is that, like if we had a pie chart, traditional health care, it would be this tiny slice. Because even what we do even talking about lifestyle, just lifting weights and caring about your nutrition kind of puts you in a minority these days, but it is a form of health care. And in fact, you've heard the criticisms, those health care versus sick care, right. And you can almost like put traditional medicines to that sick care slice. And then all the other things are what we try to do on our own toward health care, although there's a time in place for for medication and whatnot. Cool. All right. So we're going to close here soon, what I really want to get to the root of is, why did you think it was important to share your story today, because I reached out in our community, and I brought up the topic and you guys raise your hand, you're courageous enough to come on here. And you know, everybody's nervous about going on a podcast and all that. Why was it important for you to be here, let's start with Liz. And then three,

Liz: 48:37

I think we are the number one person who can take care of us. And it's so crucially important to advocate for ourselves, and to really speak up and get the things that we need and reach out to the next resource if we're not getting it. So, you know, so many things that I've learned as both a nurse and as like a human being in the world had been from hearing someone else's experience and going, Oh, that sounds similar to mine. Let me learn something, let me do something with that information. And so I just I feel like the more we can share our stories, the more we can advocate for ourselves and be better patients and maybe not even be patient. You know, that'd be the goal. But I just thought it was important that, you know, we continue to have these conversations about gaslighting and how to advocate and, and more importantly, how to be happy and healthy.

Philip Pape: 49:25

I love it. So I mean, two things, you really struck me there just advocating for yourself, like you said, right, because no one else is really going to do it for you, even our closest loved ones they try. But we have our best advocate and then taking what you have and sharing it with others and helping others see the same thing, which is what we're trying to do here. So Thanks, Liz. Absolutely, Bri

Brienne: 49:43

I completely agree with that. I feel like my entire life looks completely different than it did even even a year ago or two years ago or 10 years ago it everything was so different and I sounds almost cliche to be like, Oh, I'm 40 and it's you know best have ever felt bit like it's, that's that's real. That's true that happens. And I, I have this kind of like, desperate need to convince other people that they really need to, like do this too. And like, like to the point where I kind of have to like hold myself backwards, like don't don't start trying to diagnose people or something because that's not helpful. But like the idea of like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, you don't have to be like your story doesn't have to be, you know, my back hurts every day or I never get any sleep or I've gained all this weight, I don't know what to do with it or how to get it back off, or my doctor never listens to me or I feel crappy all the time. That doesn't have to be anybody's story, there are options. And if if it helps to share what I've experienced, and somebody else can recognize that and then go, maybe I'll give that a try and see what happens like that I don't, I will probably never know. But it's really helpful to know that I've done my part to at least share what I experienced. And then it could be better for somebody else, because

Philip Pape: 50:57

I love it. And I know people, somebody you will impact at least one person and probably more than that. No, I'm not saying the show has millions of listeners, but there's enough people who listen and are kind of in that demographic of you know, we're in our 30s 40s 50s. And, you know, wondering what the heck we might do even if lifestyle is dialed in, and maybe lifestyle is not dialed in. And if you know who you are, if that's the case, nobody needs a robot in your face, right? Like we want to work both together and figure out the solution. So that is awesome. I mean, this has been this has been really fun. And before we let everyone know how to connect with you, I do want to give a voice from someone else in our community. I mentioned this before we started recording. Um, her name is Stella. And I'm just she gave me permission to share her story I want to share in her own words. So again, the warning we had before this could be you know, serious topic here. Quote, I had severe anemia written off as depression without any testing by the doctor who drugged and raped me. He was successfully sued for malpractice by others. But I didn't feel safe to come forward about it at that time as I was only 19. The mental health misdiagnosis has never been removed from my file. So I've never received actual testing or investigation into any of my other health issues. It all gets written off as crazy patient syndrome. To save my life, I had to do over 10 years of research, and watch my mom's diagnoses to find out what else was going on. She was gaslit about a thyroid issue for two decades until diagnosis. And doctors continue to refuse to order tests along the lines of my research. So there's no way to formally confirm or deny this. However, I brought myself back from being almost bedridden, while doctors did nothing. I think it's important to speak up about how militias, predatory doctors can destroy a patient's ability to receive health care for their entire life in court. So it's a very different story from you. But there's a lot of similarities and obviously very heavy and what sellers had to go through. Did any of you want to say anything about that? You don't have to I can, you know, close the episode here.

Brienne: 52:54

I don't have good words. Okay, absolutely horrific. But unfortunately, not as rare as it should be.

Liz: 53:01

I think it's so important that, you know, we speak out because it gives other people permission to speak out, too. I think so many times we've seen this happen where women have an experience and they think I'm the only one I'll just keep it to myself and and I'll live with this forever. But you never know how many people are out there, you know, live having the same lived experience that just don't quite have the courage to speak out. And so, you know, my heart breaks for her that she had a provider that you know, use it abuse and absolutely broke every oath that we make as healthcare providers. inexcusable, but, you know, I hope that she can find someone who will advocate for her and care for her and, you know, help her get the things that she needs to really, again, get back to wellness, whatever that means for what a courageous thing for her to share her story to incredible,

Philip Pape: 53:52

very much. Yeah. And she lives in a place where the infrastructure is difficult. She wanted to be on here, you know, couldn't but yeah, it's it's, you know, total spectrum. As we see it's a spectrum everybody is different in the care we receive is different, but it's all the same principles behind it. And you to express beautifully how we can take back control of our health. So I do want to express you know, the deepest thanks and gratitude to both of you, Liz and Bree, for your bravery, vulnerability, because you are also sharing your you know, details of your life. And your experiences just tell us how common it is. I mean, not just to yours, but also those that you've lived with and know and lives as a medical professional as well can give us that perspective. And it affects our well being and affects our health. That's why I wanted to bring on this show because it affects everybody, even men, listening men supporting women, it happens to everybody. And so to our listeners to our viewers who've had symptoms dismissed or your concerns minimized or your intuition about your own body ignored by medical professional, you are not alone at all. The stories here are just like a small sliver of this pervasive problem that we have in our industry. But you know, lism really showed us that there is power in self advocacy and being the number one, advocate for yourself. And trust your experience, seek second opinions, advocate with your appointments and like you can cancel on a doctor if you have to, as we heard from Bree, maybe even you don't have people that go with you to appointments can be helpful, too. And keep pushing for the care and answers you deserve. And if you're a healthcare professional listening, just like Liz, I urge you to reflect on how you can create a safer, more validating environment for your patients to voice their concerns. So yes, change starts with what we had today with this conversation. And I think we could all work toward you know, a future where this doesn't happen again. That's that's what we want. So with that said, I know I've been talking a lot here, Liz, where do you want people to connect with you?

Liz: 55:51

And the easiest place to find me is on Instagram. I'm at nurse Liz three. All

Philip Pape: 55:55

right, Instagram fit nurse Liz three. I'll throw that in the show notes and Bri same question.

Brienne: 56:00

Instagrams probably easiest place to find me as well. My whole little mini farm experiment up in the mountains is all on ball all on there. So you can find me on Instagram at modern mountain homestead. Modern

Philip Pape: 56:13

mountain homestead. I'll put that in as well. Any final thoughts? I want to give you guys a last word. If you have anything else you want to say. It's

Liz: 56:19

been such a pleasure to talk to you and Bree, I thank you so much for sharing your experience. And I just got so much out of this conversation that I hope that helps someone else. One person would be more than enough. Awesome. I'll

Brienne: 56:31

echo that was really great to be with this group is such a fun group. I'm glad we have a whole like collaboration of nerds makes me happy. But just truly for anybody out there who listens. You can it's okay to advocate for yourself. It's okay to make your own decisions here. And I really, really hope that you are encouraged to do what's best for you.

Philip Pape: 56:51

Well said I had a blast. So you guys are awesome. I had so much fun. This is one of the most favorite interviews I've ever done. And so I hope the listeners and viewers felt the same. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Brienne: 57:02

Thank you.

Philip Pape: 57:03

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.