Brian Gryn: 0:00

Not everyone's meant to like benchpress I don't think I think especially as you get older, you know might be tough on the shoulders, the joints. And if you can find a better way to maybe utilize different tools in the weight room to help with joint integrity, I think resistance bands is something that I never used to use. And now I use it from time to time and it's the fact that

Philip Pape: 0:20

Welcome to the Wits& Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm speaking with Brian grin, author of The stepladder system and the go to guy for men over 40 looking to turn their health around. I brought him on the show because we are kindred spirits when it comes to no nonsense practical fitness and nutrition advice. And today you are going to learn his six steps for rebuilding your strongest healthiest body over 40. Brian's going to show you how to find clarity, tackle stress and make sleep your secret weapon for fat loss and muscle gain. We'll get into nutrition myths, meal timing and intermittent fasting plus effective strategies for training smart, given your recovery capacity and joint health. Ryan is one of the good ones in the industry because he cuts through the noise, avoids fads and quick fixes. And he gets real results. He's been in the health industry for almost 20 years, coaching middle aged men on how to build strength and healthy habits that they can use for the rest of their lives. With a background in Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, Brian creates no nonsense customized plans that give you more energy, a stronger body and a sustainable lifestyle. He's in the business of making health transformations tangible, focusing on what really works over the long term for men over 40 seeking a serious reboot to their health, including more energy and strength while losing inches. Brian is the real deal. Brian, welcome to the show.

Brian Gryn: 2:10

Phillip, thank you for that introduction. Copy paste that onto my patch best. Happy to give it to you might have to take that from you.

Philip Pape: 2:21

You gotta have the epic Avengers music behind it. You know, they're really set up.

Brian Gryn: 2:25

Love it. Yeah, thanks for having me on.

Philip Pape: 2:27

For sure. And we met on your podcast. And you were gracious enough to come back on here. What we wanted to talk about today was the six principles from your book. And I want to let the listener know, this was my idea. And we're not just here to promote a book, we're here because there's a ton of value in these six steps for overall health and nutrition. And before we dive into each of those, Brian, what is your personal connection or experience that led to you developing these principles?

Brian Gryn: 2:53

Yeah, so the principles came about from my own personal experience along with working with clients. I mean, I don't think with these principles, there's nothing groundbreaking, I think that's why they're sort of principles, right? You're just getting back to the basics. It's like, I always equate everything to golf, it's like, you know, you can do all these fancy things, but a lot of it comes down to like grip stance, you know, setup. And you know, same type of thing with health and fitness, I think it's easy to get caught up in a lot of the minutia, the details that go on, you know, if you're on YouTube, or, or Instagram, and everyone's got a new tip of the day. But a lot of times extra can can sort of take you farther away from your goal, I think. So that's why I want to sort of create this book, just sort of put it all together, I almost think it's like a workbook, because you sort of fill out as you go. And it gets you into act taking action steps as opposed to just reading more information, because there's plenty of information out there people can find that as much as they want. Yeah,

Philip Pape: 3:52

I mean to two great things you mentioned there. One is the idea that they are principles, a big fan of principles versus methods. I mean, we need methods at some point to take that action, but the principles never change. And you're right the 1% is where so much attention is paid especially on social media it gets the clicks you know the cold plunges the red light therapy, even things that we think are kind of ho hum like soft supplementations still are just that tiny percentage of what moves the needle. So it's it's great that you got to that point, but I did want to dig in a little bit more personally with you. I'm not asking Hey, what is your story you know, people can learn about you and I don't want to take half the podcast doing that they want to get the information but like seriously, like what what have you gone through what have you learned? What's the Hard Knocks that you've experienced? that got you to, hey, this is important for me to put out in the world. Maybe it's helped you to help clients. What's a on that?

Brian Gryn: 4:45

Well, it's it's interesting because my journey through how I started as a trainer and just sort of coaching in strength training, nothing around nutrition, meal timing, things like that. Sleep stress, things that we'll touch on A and I think the one thing I learned from that is is like, I mean, resistance training is a big piece of the puzzle. But a lot of times with individuals, especially a lot of my clients, which are men that are 40. Plus, you have to sort of dig a little bit deeper and touch on other aspects, because they're all sort of intertwine, and I love resistance training and talking about that, but also realize that, for people to get optimal results, they're going to have to maybe focus on other things alongside resistance training to really get what they want. So I think that was sort of my big thing that has grown through the years because I just first started out doing one thing, and now I try to touch on all those different principles to help people get, you know, optimal health.

Philip Pape: 5:42

Cool. Yeah, that's probably why it appeals especially to, you know, to guys like me, and a lot of our listeners here, I think we have very similar audiences, from what I can tell when I was on your show, because the over 40 crowd is growing. And it's the demographic where we've got issues that catch up with us in life, right, we've got our personal obligations and our life stress, we have recovery and joint health challenges. A lot of people in the age group may not have started until late in life, but now you can't just say I go lift weights, there's all these synergistic things that go along with that. So all right, great. Thank you for setting the context. And let's dive right in. I think I have the six steps lined up, the first one being clarity. And that's an interesting one to start with. How do you find clarity? What does that mean? Why is this the first step in your stepladder?

Brian Gryn: 6:31

Oh, well, I mean, I think that a lot of times people want to go from like, A to Z in like 2.5 seconds and just get to where they want to go, without necessarily digging into why they want to get there. I know, like, was a Simon Sinek Yeah, cynic who's done a bunch of, you know, TEDx is and things talks about, like, you know, his the why. And I think it's important about, you know, health as opposed to and along with other areas of your life, but like, getting crystal clear on that. And, you know, having, you know, sort of complete awareness of any, like unconscious patterns that aren't serving you. And that have hindered your progress in the past. So I think if you create some clarity as to why you want to get to where you want to go, and, and then understanding what has not worked in the past, I think that's like a good first step to start with. And a lot of times that could be coming coming down to I think we talked about it with you on my podcast is sort of recording and understanding and tracking what you're already doing, or what you're not doing. And then in sort of assessing that, and then building a sort of a program from that. So

Philip Pape: 7:39

like clarity, again, we're talking about not only your goals, as you just mentioned, but also what is maybe shouldn't be part of your goals, or the unconscious patterns from the past that have sabotaged you from reaching your goals. And that's always an interesting one, right? Because I don't know if you found this in your career, but early on. For me, I was surprised at how much mindset played into this, even though I shouldn't have been, I think that was one of my unconscious patterns is not realizing how much my own mind was holding me back. And a lot of people are in that situation where I just want to know what to do. Just Just tell me the steps stuff I need to do, I'll get it done. I'm an action taker. And yet it doesn't quite. It's not the whole piece of the puzzle. So the tracking and awareness is great. But give us some more ideas underneath that as to not only finding your why, because I don't think there has to be too complicated to be honest. But especially the what hasn't worked piece of that.

Brian Gryn: 8:31

Yeah, how you perceive yourself, I think it's important as well, I'll I'll just give an example. Like I had a client, who I talked to him every week, he would always portray himself as a, like a bad guy. Like he, you know, he was repeating this, like this fat funny guy, right. And this is how he's perceived himself. And I think that I'm not saying you have to do some whole psychological analysis on people. But I do think it's important these these little things that you say to yourself on a daily and weekly basis, they mean something, and they could affect how you're going about getting to where you want to go. Because if you're always portraying yourself, as that in your mind, consciously or unconsciously, this is going to take a toll over time. And that's not to say that everyone is like that. But I think it's important to be aware like this self awareness, I think, is is a good sort of first step and how you portray yourself is important. And

Philip Pape: 9:27

what what is one of your favorite exercises or ways to reflect on that and learn about that self talk in the context of what we're going for here, which is, you know, fitness, specifically because we could open up a whole can of worms. I remember early in my career as an engineer, getting a career counselor who had me do one of those assessments, right, those personality assessments, and then you sort of do some other exercises that help you reflect on what you're good at what you're not what you like, what you don't like, and then you develop this sense of self awareness. Other training I've had over the years has to do with communicating with others and having emotional intelligence. So we're really talking about the self here, and the unconscious patterns and what's held us back. Also the self identity you mentioned, of identify as a fat guy or identify as you know, the class clown. I'm trying to unravel this, what's a very practical strategy someone can do today? who's listening to discover that for themselves?

Brian Gryn: 10:24

Well, I would say that writing down like in a journal, I know not everyone loves doing that. I mean, I literally write in my journal every morning, and it takes me two and a half minutes, like I am waiting for my tea to boil. So you know, it's not like I'm sitting down, we're writing a novel. So I think, in that I write down I've self reflect, and I write down who I believe I am, like, I'm a winner. You know, I'm gonna have health and happiness, you know, certain things that just might be basic things, but like, you know, like, I've just not to go off, but I just watched a four part documentary on Conor McGregor. And, and yeah, and I can't say I'm like, the biggest McGregor fan. But you can, what you learn from that is his mindset from the start was, there was no doubt in his mind where he was going and been, who he, who he was, and who's going to become. And you see that? And I mean, obviously, his work ethic is second to none. And, you know, but like, there wasn't any doubt, you know, there wasn't any. And I'm not saying people can't have doubt and insecurity, I mean, that everyone has that. But I think that if you feed yourself with sort of that right mentality, that that winner mentality that you're going to get to where you want to go or who you who you want to be, I think that does play a role in you know, a lot of men don't necessarily and even women don't want to necessarily even go down that road. But I think, you know, if you write a few things down, I would say those would be write a few things down of who you believe you're going to be whether you're that person right now or not, I think that can take you far. And he had he has like three kids now. But his first son, every every time every scene with his son called him a champ, you know, and that that's going to work on the subconscious mind. And you know, I'm sure with him he made his kid might end up becoming a champ, who knows. But anyways, so that would be something that I would advise, I think that's

Philip Pape: 12:14

great, man. I mean, people know who listened to me I'm not I personally am not a big journaler as a as a actual tool. But I do love it for a lot of people. And I also do what you're doing positive affirmations, whatever you want to call them, you can do them verbally. You do them when you talk and write to people, you do them on the podcast when you It's like how are you communicating? And you kind of check yourself, the more you do it, because it's a skill, like anything else, you develop that skill of saying, No, I'm an athlete, I'm a winner, I'm going to get bigger muscles, like I'm gonna take care of my kids, whatever. The thing is, it doesn't matter, but it's positive. It also reminds me of something in positive psychology called optimism bias. Some people have this inherently. And some people develop it, the idea of just being optimistic about everything, and not being afraid that the optimism is going to lead to disappointment, right? Because you're thinking, well, if I'm optimistic about everything, and it doesn't turn out to be true, won't I be disappointed? It actually doesn't seem to work that way. It seems to shift everything toward you now taking actions to make that happen. And sometimes you fail, and that's okay. But you're always pushing in that direction. Now we're getting philosophical, Brian, thanks for bringing that out.

Brian Gryn: 13:20

I mean, I like I like talking about this part. Like I always bring everything like I said, back to golf. And you see that with golfers, good, bad, some of the greatest golfers, but the great ones, they think they already in their minds believe that they're, they're great. And there's no doubt they don't, you know, you hear a lot of people on the golf course say, Well, I suck at putting, and they say that to themselves. And they'll say it out loud, because I coach high school golf. And I tell them, I said, you know, as much as you think that's not harming you, it actually you're saying that to yourself every day? Like, is that really going to serve you? In the long term? It's not so

Philip Pape: 13:54

true. Yeah. And I tell my clients all the time, you're an athlete, you know, even if they don't want to admit, admit it or accept it. And sometimes you need someone else to kind of push you toward that, like you said, with the golf example. Arnold Schwarzenegger is another great example that I mean, you watch his documentary, you see,

Brian Gryn: 14:09

I love I love a three part series. And I think people do it. Some they don't realize they're doing it. Right. Right. They don't realize they're saying I suck at putting in until someone makes them aware of that. So I think that's where a coach or someone can come into play and say, Well, you realize you're saying that to yourself, like every time you go on the golf course. Well, yeah.

Philip Pape: 14:29

And even to add to that, like, just statements you make in general, when they are framed in a moral moral way, like when we talk about food or just your week, you know, when I hear clients say, like, I did bad or I did a bad thing. It's like, no, no, this is a reframing opportunity, right? Like you made a choice. Something happened. That's data, let's learn from it. Let's move ahead. And this this week, you're going to be proactive and do something positive to shift it. Okay, so that's, that's the clarity piece. I don't know if you want to, you know, add anything else. I don't want to like robotically go to the next one. If we're not there yet. But we can. Number two,

Brian Gryn: 15:02

no, no, that's fine. I mean, the only thing I would add is like understanding where you're at. And I'll say I've talked about this before meeting, like, set a baseline, like, okay, maybe, you know, like we talked about like, Well, we haven't talked about it, yes. But we want to talk about my podcast is like a DEXA scan, or like something where you just know where you're at, at this point in time. Because if you can just make, you know, I think getting small wins, which is the next sort of pillar, I like to talk about it, I call it like small changes, big results, where you try to get these small wins that sort of give you these big results. And I think it's important to get those wins Well, in order to get wins, I mean, you we all I think it's important to know where you're at now. So you can sort of understand like, Okay, well, I've improved in these areas. And

Philip Pape: 15:46

I agree, I agree. Yeah, getting a baseline and having objective data and getting the wins and celebrating all all good stuff. People need to hear this. All right. So let's, let's move on to step two, which I think is stress, right? Yeah,

Brian Gryn: 15:57

yeah, exactly. These aren't in any particular order. I mean, the clarity one sort of is, but these read, the rest of them aren't necessarily in any order, I think it depends on the person. So some people are very good at managing stress. So we don't necessarily need to touch on that. But if someone's not, this is definitely a pillar that's going to be you're gonna want to hit right away. Because stress is something that everyone has, it's just about managing it. And I think how to manage stress is maybe different for everybody. But I think if you can create quality routines around your life, I think that can help you manage it. So

Philip Pape: 16:31

yeah, okay, so let's dig into some of what you mentioned, from a context perspective, because you said, you know, we can't reduce stress, we can only manage it. And I know what you mean, I did an episode recently, it was all about stress, and talking about chronic life stress. Now, there's so much out of your control. And as the stoics would say, like, who cares, let's just let's control we can so and of course, you can change your situation that's causing the stress and then reduce the stress. But most people are going through life with big things that are not easily changeable, you know, today or this week, like they have kids or you know, they have this this particular job or live in a certain place. So before we understand how to manage it, why is it so important? I mean, you know, I probably have talked about on this show many times, but from a weight management hormones well being like, what are the big reasons that we care about chronic stress on health?

Brian Gryn: 17:22

Well, I mean, first of all, if you're in a fight or flight stress mode, like the majority of your time, you know, that's going to obviously raise cortisol. And cortisol is both can be a positive and a negative. And it sort of goes in a diet, diurnal state, like meeting diurnal rhythm throughout the day, right. So we'll have a little spike in cortisol in the morning. And then it should slowly taper off towards the evening. And I recently worked with a company called FDN, where we do like a saliva test. And we see these diurnal rhythms based on different individuals and where their stresses out throughout the day, sort of pretty cool in the morning, midday and evening. And then you have a sum from that a lot of times, if you go get blood work, it'll give you a sum. But I think what's important to understand is sort of that rhythm of cortisol and how it interacts throughout the day and goes up or down. But yeah, I mean, obviously, we're going to hold on to fat. And if our cortisol is our high, cortisol is high all day. And so we have to sort of manage that as best as possible. And I think, most importantly, understanding like, you need to have your own self care and take care of yourself, I think, especially the audience that I talked to is 40. Plus, a lot of times, you know, they're busy with their jobs and their kids, and they don't give time for themselves and self care. And you have to find time throughout the day for that, whether that's early in the morning, or later at night, whenever it is, I always tell people, you know, there's not a perfect time, but it's the time that you can do consistently for yourself, and whether that's 15 minutes first thing in the morning, or later on, I think that, you know, prioritizing that is really important. I

Philip Pape: 19:04

agree. And I also know that that's an area that I'm always improving because people who are tend to be go getters also tend to prioritize, you know, getting stuff done over quote unquote, self care and quote unquote, stress. And there's also this misconception that you need to do some advanced mindfulness or meditation techniques or yoga or something like that. So let's let's dispel that and make it very simple and practical for people who are stressed and don't want to get stressed out by a stress relieving technique. What are like, what's the entry point? What's the stepladder to stress reduction techniques?

Brian Gryn: 19:40

Well, I'll tell you that I am a yoga fan. But I don't necessarily think everyone is into yoga and I'm in a lot of my clients aren't. But I think if you can find like, I'll do five minute meditation in the morning. So if you can five, five minutes and start with that, I think that's a good place to start. And you can use an app, you can just sit In silence, I think that's not a bad place to start really, and and, you know, everyone, we can find five minutes. So I think that's a good place to start. I mean, I don't think it has to be anything groundbreaking. It doesn't have to be an hour class. But you know, nowadays, there's plenty of apps headspace, whatever the excetera, there's a lot of them that sort of can guide you through that, and at least give you just some time for yourself where you can just sit in your thoughts a little bit. Alright,

Philip Pape: 20:26

so the way I worded the question, I always work my questions a little bit in a little bit of a leading fashion, sometimes unconsciously. But when I said advanced techniques like meditation, that's, that's a form of self talk or assumption that I'm using, right by saying it that way. And what you just said was, hey, stop making excuses, bro. Like, not just me, but everybody listening, it just takes five minutes, you can use an app, get it done, you just sit and be quiet. You know, in the morning, oftentimes, I go straight to my phone, I want to get all the notifications out of the way, right? Because it just annoys me.

Brian Gryn: 20:55

I would say turn off your notifications. Yeah, well, I

Philip Pape: 20:59

don't mean they wake me up. But you know, when you when I wake up, I check my email and stuff like that. But um, you know, not doing that, and just taking five minutes to just sit is great advice. Would you consider activities that you're already doing for other things health related, like strength training, walking to those still fall in the category of stress management? Or they have to be done a certain way to sort of count in that regard? No,

Brian Gryn: 21:24

I would say that counts, for sure. I mean, yeah, there's no doubt that lifting is a stressor, but it also can help relieve stress as well. Right. So big irony there. Yeah. So I think it works both ways. You know, if you only have a certain amount of time in your day, you got to sort of prioritize, you know what you need most. And if you want to be efficient, and you got 20 minutes to 30 minutes, and you know, you'd rather not use some of that on meditation, then maybe you do something active going for a walk or or lifting.

Philip Pape: 21:56

Last question about stress. You mentioned your, your journaling and your meditation. Do you ever have a time when the stress ramps up due to some acute activity that happens? Or you know, some situation happens, right? Or you see this with clients? And then is there can there be a go to activity or something you go to shortly thereafter to kind of bring that stress down?

Brian Gryn: 22:18

Yeah, I mean, you're talking about something that can just be done anywhere, right? Like, you know, if you're in the car, or if you're somewhere, it's like, sometimes you just need like something to fall back on. And I actually had a gentleman, his name's Avi Greenberg. He's from New York, he works with individuals and coaches them on how to breathe, just breathe correctly, focus on that. And I did some sessions with him, actually, after I interviewed him. They were like, 45 minutes long. And we literally, it was like a zoom call based on breathing. You're like, oh, that doesn't sound but it was like at the end of the call, you know, I just felt like enlightened and less stress and everything. And I mean, so breathing is like this underrated thing that you can really dive deep into it. And I'm not saying you have to do like Wim Hof breathing, but you know, breathing in through your nose, even out through your mouth. I think, you know, nose breathing, obviously, is huge, becoming bigger and bigger now, like these mouth tape companies, but like, right, you know, you got your best filters in your nose. And so I think it's important to focus on that. But yeah, if you just need something go to, you know, is I would just say focusing on breath. Yeah,

Philip Pape: 23:26

that's a good one. We did a session with So Alan, he's in our community did a an alternate nostril breathing session. Okay, that was very interesting because you get that flow through into one nostril out the other and it almost it's almost like a neti pot of air, so to speak. Yeah, flows through, it's very nice.

Unknown: 23:46

That's a Philippe and awfully for a long time. I don't know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape: 24:31

Alright, so then the next one, which is often tied together or related in many ways to that in terms of recovery is sleep. I think we know sleep is critical. Everyone emphasizes that point. And yet I still feel and I see with clients that it's extremely you know, we're under rested when it comes to sleep, both in terms of quantity and quality. And it affects a lot of things in our life. So tell us tell us more about that.

Brian Gryn: 24:55

Yeah, I mean, sleep gosh, I mean, we could talk an hour on sleep as far as Improving and you know, insulin sensitivity, glucose metabolism, helping prevent weight gain. And one of the big things is also that can affect sleep, digestion. And I think sort of like, I like to try the action steps for people that sort of hit a lot of different things. And one of those things is making sure that you give yourself enough time to digest and you eat early enough in the day. And you're seeing studies come out like this chronal nutrition where if you've consumed most of your meals before a certain time, how that and you're in, you're allowed to digest the metabolize food earlier in the day, this can help on a number of fronts that I've already, you know, insulin sensitivity, but glucose metabolism, and just helping quality of sleep.

Philip Pape: 25:44

I want to stay with that, because I feel like I've heard that three other times on podcasts just this week. And I want to emphasize it. Because Coincidentally, I had a big dinner with a group a couple of nights ago, and I posted like on social, some graphs of my, you know, my weight trend, but also my HRV and my resting heart rate. And, you know, it was like six 7pm It wasn't super late, but it was huge. It was huge. It was like a 2000 Calorie dinner. I mean, for me, that's, you know, pushing it. And so I slept through the night, but I didn't feel well rested, my HRV dropped, my resting heart rate went up, right. And it was like a significant variance from from the norm. And I posted that to show people like, here's the effect of eating too much close to dinner, because you're just digesting the heck out of it through the night. I've also heard protein, you know, almost like protein itself, because it takes more energy to digest, kind of shifting that earlier in the day, even though all those muscle heads are like no, I gotta get protein six times a day. Right? That and then the the drinking that drinking too close to bed. So I'm glad you bring that up. And I want people to hear this. Because that alone is kind of a simple change to impact sleep quality, what is your recommendation on that recommendation,

Brian Gryn: 26:54

as far as like, I would say, establishing a time to cut off your eating window. You know, I used to be pretty big, like intermittent faster, I've cut back a little bit on that because I found I wasn't consuming enough or my like activity level and where I wanted to go get with goals within the in the weight room and, and things like that. So but one rule I've always stayed with was cutting off the time that I've done eating. Now I'm not saying I do this, like we were just on vacation. And you know, we did eat early, we're my wife. Luckily, my wife likes to eat early too. So we you know, we eat with the senior citizens around like 530 ish. And when families that have kids, so if you could cut off that and give yourself three to four hours to digest food, I think that can help quality of sleep. And we all know, sleeping will help with repair and muscle growth. And you know, obviously releasing growth hormones that aid and both of those things. So the biggest thing I would say first and foremost is picking a time for me. It's typically 630 to seven, I like to be done eating

Philip Pape: 27:58

and drinking too. Or just just eating.

Brian Gryn: 28:00

I'll drink. Maybe, you know, I used to be big into tea later. But I found that I was that was getting me up because I was keying a lot. Yeah. So I would say ideally, both would be great. Occasionally I'll have like, I don't know, carbonated water. You know, maybe I might have something a little bit later on. But I tried not drinking as well. I think that yeah, yeah, both would be great.

Philip Pape: 28:22

I think that's a great technique. And I'm glad you know, just like you when you have guests on like it's almost like a selfish, like a coaching call away. Because I'm getting all these techniques and thinking about my own routine. And I don't know how many people listening are are snacking close to bed. And, you know, besides the whether or not that serves your goals or not like for me, I can eat a lot because I'm building muscle. And so sometimes I just don't have enough food, even when I'm done with dinner, and I just eat at like 8pm and then I go to bed at 930. And it's like, I'm used to that, because it's not a lot. But then I wonder if I just experiment with, you know, stop at seven after dinner and do that for a week and see what happens. You know, it's good advice. It's

Brian Gryn: 29:01

a great rule of thumb, honestly, it's probably one of my top ones out of everything. I

Philip Pape: 29:06

love it. Okay, that's a really good tip. Okay, so what would on nutrition, we've touched on it a little bit. You and I talked about it a lot last time and your podcast is kind of, you know, predicated on that given the title, but let's go with your principles and your philosophy overall, just so the audience knows where you're coming from. Yeah, so I mean, I know it's a loaded.

Brian Gryn: 29:27

zealot. Ya know, I mean, I think my principles have like, changed through the years. I was low carb for a while, a little bit like you, I think, right? You went through sort of different stages of trying different things. But I think first and foremost is sort of, for every individual. It's like a sort of a self experimentation stage for everybody to try different ways of eating and sort of finding what works. I think it's important because you're going to hear different opinions about a balanced view about a carnivore about, you know, a vegetarian. And I think for For me, it's it's changed. I'm trying to consume more now. And I think that comes back to saying, Okay, well, let's track, right, let's understand what we're eating and how much we're eating. And then from there, just figuring out what works like one of the things I've used for myself and realized is my second meal a day, I find I don't, I don't need much, you know, like, I'll have a decent breakfast, which I used to not have. And I don't have that like, first thing, but let's say 910 o'clock, decent amount of protein, maybe some fruit, yogurt, something like that. And then my second meal, I find that I don't need as much. And then my third meal is maybe a touch on that is like the main meal. But I'm having that earlier, so I have time to digest it. And that is, that's what what has worked for me. So for most clients, I don't try to push one way or the other as far as like a certain style of eating, I think it's important to, you know, I know you're big into sort of this flexible eating, where it's not necessarily about being perfect, but it's just about being sustainable for the long term. And, you know, you're seeing a lot of like carnivore, this carnivore craze come. And I think a lot of these, quote, unquote, like diets work for a lot of people, because one, it's taking them off sort of that standard American diet and getting them away from a lot of foods and ultra processed things that aren't serving them very well. And going to more of a whole foods diet where it's creating satiety, which I think is really important. I had Marty Kendall, I don't know, if he's been on your podcast, Marty Kendall, he does a lot of great writing around satiety, and how if you can sort of lead with that, I think that can really help sort of balance your day and make it so you don't have to feel like you're over consuming. And you know, getting your arms around satiety is not easy. But you know, for most people in a lot of times, that's obviously prioritizing protein. But there are a lot certain carbs, even like potato that are have been shown to be highly satisfying, and sort of keep you from snacking all throughout the day. And so leading with that, I think it's really important and wrapping your arms around satiety is a good sort of place to start.

Philip Pape: 32:12

Yeah, I mean, in the intro, I said, we're kindred spirits, there's definitely a lot of this we agree on. Because we're agreeing on principles. We're not we're not, you know, dicking around with specific protocols, because there is no specific protocol for any anybody is individual. And the idea of self experimentation. You know, I had never thought of the fact that all the diets I had tried and you know, my clients tried and women try 120 diets in their life, on average, something like that, really. It's huge. It's vastly more than what men cycled through just, from what I've understood, we can now reframe those as positive experiences that taught us about ourselves. I like that, right? I have a lot of clients now coming off of carnivores, I'm gonna call it who, who said, Look, I liked all the food, and I love to eat meat and eggs, and you know, butter, I felt great after I switched to it. And I got some decent results. But I just couldn't stick with it. And that's, and that was the big sticking point was the sustainability piece. And you'll you'll see all these arguments about some of these diets like Well, no, you know, all the short term, blood markers and health markers all great or better, or this and that. And it's kind of taken out of context, like you said, with what Bill, you're changing about 50 variables when you switch from the standard American diet to any other diet. So let's pick the best thing that works for us. satiety also, totally agree that that is huge, especially during especially during fat loss, right, when you have less calories to make it easier. But even when you're not, you can get hungry even when you're building, right. And satiety leads to like you said, choosing protein, choosing fiber choosing, you know, nutrient dense foods anyway, I'm just commenting all the stuff you said because it's good. Well, and

Brian Gryn: 33:52

you know, one thing I'll say that when I was doing some more fasting, what it taught me to understand about my body was like true hunger. What that was, because what I've noticed, going back to consuming more and eating Lexus 83 whole meals is I'm craving more, which not necessarily a bad thing. But when you do do bouts of fasting, you sort of I think you sort of get in tune with your hunger cues. And, like, understand that, like a lot of times your body's just going to creature you're a creature of habit, right? So if you're used to eating at these times, your body's going to give you these cues to eat then I think sometimes it's good to just mix it up and just say okay, what would happen if I just skip a meal? And how to how would I feel and like just understanding and being more self aware of like your hunger as opposed to just being okay, I'm just going to eat the second I get like this urge to eat and you just sort of lose in touch of of what really is. What really is hunger and what's just sort of your body being used to eating all day long.

Philip Pape: 34:53

Yeah, and I wonder how long it takes to get to true hunger because I've never done more than like a day and a half fast. Have you done Unlike three day fast,

Brian Gryn: 35:01

you know, I was never Yeah, never a big long term one. But yes, something like you i At times I did like a day and a half to two in that range never really much more than that. And, you know, I don't necessarily advise it for most people, but just at least if you have never done it, at least sort of give yourself some space between meals, I think it's important unless you're like, you're really in a building mode, and you want to eat like six times a day. But if you're not, you know, giving yourself space between meals, and then I like to call it like, like, almost like bumper, like, you know, what is it bumper bowling where you get the, on each side of that? Sure. Yeah, yeah. So there's Yeah, yeah, was it? Yeah, bowling with bumpers, it's just eating with bumpers, right. Don't eat too close to bedtime, and don't eat the second you get up. Like, I like to start with those sort of like just rules of thumb right off the bat. And then you can sort of adjust it as you as you go.

Philip Pape: 35:56

I mean, that's another good tip in there is to schedule your schedule your meals, at least come up with a routine and have those, you know, quote, unquote, we call them rules, but they're really just your own guidelines at work for you. You mentioned with the fast what was I going to say there? Oh, what just a funny thing that came to mind. Like, a colonoscopy is like a forest one day fast to prepare for it. So take advantage of that if you're over 40. And, or actually, I guess it's 50. But I've had mine earlier. But anyway, the fasting, I heard something recently about how a lot of us, myself included, when I've done these one day fast, it's been a long time, I can't even imagine doing them anymore. But I used to do them regularly, like once a week, where you get this set, you get a little bit of hunger. That's not kind of you realize it's not real hunger, right? Your body says, Okay, you're not feeding me turns off the hunger signals. And then you get this sort of clarity, this interesting clarity that you get. No, I did hear something recently that they've studied that phenomenon and found that that part of that is, is pure perception. It's like a pure mental thing. Really. Which is interesting. Which I guess it doesn't matter. Right? If you perceive it that way, it is that way for you. But But anyway, I just I'm going off on a tangent because there you can learn a lot from fasting as what you're saying about not only hunger, but other things, too, about your yourself, including what do you do with yourself when you're not constantly eating? Right?

Brian Gryn: 37:15

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You don't realize how much it takes up of your of your day. But yeah, I mean, I think it's a good tool. Right? I think it's a tool. You know, for example, I just came back from traveling, we were on the plane, didn't really want to eat my plane food or airport food. So you know what, it's a decent time to do a little bit of fasting. Nothing crazy. But you know, I think if you can sort of look at and find times where you're going to be around food that's not going to serve, you can use those times as as good sort of testing times to the fast a little bit. That's

Philip Pape: 37:46

a great point. Yeah, yeah. If anybody is used to getting into that flow state where you're working, and you just time goes by, you can go hours and hours and hours without eating and not being hungry. And you realize it is it's more of a habitual thing than a real hormonal thing. Is there any anything else about nutrition? You know, because again, a lot of what we're gonna say, the audience has probably heard from me too, but myths or hot topics or anything going on these days? It's like top of mind that you wanted to share? Yeah,

Brian Gryn: 38:16

I mean, there's a lot of I guess there's a lot of myths. Probably that been debunked eventually. But you know, I think there was a recent one regarding protein distribution throughout the day. Oh, yeah. The 100 grams study? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you've touched on that. I haven't yet.

Philip Pape: 38:31

I mean, not on the show itself. It's a good one. Did you want to talk about it? You know, it's

Brian Gryn: 38:36

funny, I was just looking through it. I probably don't know enough to sort of comment on it. But to the listeners. Yeah. There was a recent study done on what was it testing, like, protein distribution throughout the day, and whether it matters, you know, if you have a certain amount for each meal, right, right. It measured I believe, like, 25 grams versus, like, 100 grams. Yeah. versus zero. Yeah. versus zero. Yeah. So I can't say I'll comment too much about it, because I haven't gone through it all. But what I think the conclusion was, was the fact that you can consume more protein than you think and your body will will be able to handle it. And not necessarily just like, not absorb, I guess, I don't know. I I have to look a little bit more into it. Did you? Yeah, I did.

Philip Pape: 39:20

I didn't want to take away your thunder. But since you brought it up, we might as well like I actually coincidentally went to a live training that Bill Campbell did last night. Oh, his body by Science Review that his subscribers get access to these things. And he talks about the exact things if I hadn't seen that I know less about it. What they found is from zero to 25 grams, you get like 25% more muscle synthesis from 25 to 100 grams, you get another 30%. And so there's no upper limit is what they've what they've determined to how much protein you have in one bolus in one meal. And the postprandial, as they call it muscle protein synthesis simply extends longer and longer, the more protein you have, that's That's it. And past studies that looked at like 20 and 40 grams, actually were in line with this. It's just that they were kind of misinterpreted. And some of the studies didn't look past like a couple hour window. So we didn't know. But yeah, so the conclusion is like getting your total protein and how you distributed almost doesn't matter.

Brian Gryn: 40:19

Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, for people who, and that not to say that I'm a big fan of like, one or two meals a day, for some people it works, they can consume a decent amount of protein, and their body will be able to utilize utilize it as opposed to thinking they have to eat it six times a day, or four times, four times a day was sort of, I think, with some of the protein experts out there, I think that was like, sort of the ideal amount of meals for growth.

Philip Pape: 40:48

I mean, if you if I went back in time a year ago, that's what I would have been saying, like, now you got to eat maybe four or five times a day to get the optimum, you know, right? Not really not really. That's a great example he brought up of the science just evolving, and the evidence can, you know, taking us in the right direction, it's good. So the next one on your list of the six, six principles, we're up to number five now is meal timing, which is I look at that good segue, we were talking about time. So I mean, meal timing can influence a lot of things. But I also wonder if some people, you know, put it above other things that are more important, like getting total protein, but what are your thoughts on meal timing? Why is it important, and so on? Well,

Brian Gryn: 41:29

I think one of the things I we talked touched on it a little bit is the fact that we're more insulin sensitive early in the day, and our muscles, which means our muscles are better able to absorb and utilize glucose, as opposed to later in the day where we become less and less insulin sensitive. So I think that's an important thing to understand. I mean, I don't think it's like the end all and if you have to eat if you're working all day, and you have to eat later, you know, it is what it is. But I think it's another sort of tool that if there's a day where you feel like you're going to have a bigger meal, perhaps you have that meal earlier on, because your body is more insulin sensitive, as opposed to eating that later on in the day. But again, I don't necessarily think it's like the end all. But it's interesting research that that is around eating later versus earlier in the day. Okay, that's

Philip Pape: 42:18

good to know. And that's related to cortisol right and related to. So now we're also talking about carbon take is your general recommendation, again, knowing that this is maybe not a huge thing that moves the needle, just to shift your carbs earlier in the day. Yeah,

Brian Gryn: 42:34

I think if you're going to Yeah, if you're going to eat, especially if you're going to like simple carbs, or sweets, you know, you're better off eating them in the morning or early afternoon, when you are more insulin sensitive than then late at night. So I don't think and I'm not necessarily anti carb, but I think if you could just focus your carbs on, you know, like fruits, vegetables, maybe, you know, boiled potatoes or something like that, I think, or even, you know, rice from white rice from time to time, I think, you know, that's a good way to go about it, as opposed to like, the breads and the pastas and the pastries, you know, and if you're going to have those have it earlier on. So have breakfast in the morning. But you know, again, from that standpoint, I you know, I had like Dr. Don layman on and he talked about the importance of getting that, that first meal to have a high protein meal. So, again, we all know that protein is important. And if you can start the day with a higher protein meal, but also, you know, if you're going to have carbs, I probably have them in the middle of the day. Not too late. Yeah,

Philip Pape: 43:35

I'm not going to show you my food logs, man. You're gonna see a lot of carbs in there.

Brian Gryn: 43:42

No, I'm not anti carb.

Philip Pape: 43:45

I know. Some of the foods you mentioned though. Yeah, I like all the carbs. Let's just put it that way. Just every type is a friend of mine. Oh, okay. You know, other than you know added sugars I'm not a huge fan of if you can keep those those down a bit. But there's also a workout and training window aspect is that when you go into that as well in your in your book about meal timing that for training? Well, I

Brian Gryn: 44:09

would say that unless like you're trying to train or your bodybuilding and for competition, I think the best time to workout is that what works for you? I don't I don't think there's a perfect time. I mean, I was just on vacation. I worked out mornings in the mornings that because before the day got going, because I wanted to get it done. And you know, my wife was sleeping so I just got it done then and I was in a fasted state and the workouts were you know, we're solid, you know when when my normal routine is, is middle of the day workouts, but again, whatever works, whatever is sustainable for the long term, but as far as working out, I think it's easy to get caught up in this all these details around the perfect time to workout but I think it's the time that's that's most consistent.

Philip Pape: 44:54

Yeah, I would agree and it might change you know, as your schedule changes. I used to work out in the middle of the day as well. Now workout in the morning. And it's funny because I'll hear arguments four different times a day. And even those don't agree like, well workout at night because you get a little boost in performance, you know, because you're, I don't know why. But you know, you've been up your cortisol curve has dropped a bit, you're well fed, whatever the reason. But then other research that says, Well, if you do it in the morning, there's these huge mental health benefits that actually translate to the rest of the day and better nutrient utilization, and then it ends up making you perform just as well. Like, just do what works for you. That's where we get into the minutiae going back to your opening, right? Yeah,

Brian Gryn: 45:34

yeah, yeah, by the time that works, and even if it's a short micro workout, I talk about micro workouts all the time, I think, you know, you know, something's better than nothing. And I don't think you need to be in the gym for an hour and a half. Yeah,

Philip Pape: 45:48

something's better than nothing. Well, so that segues to the last step, which is your activity upgrade you call it, which is an interesting term I want you to explain, but then we can get into micro workouts and effective training. And, you know, for the older guys, to what what this all means. Yeah,

Brian Gryn: 46:04

you know, one of the things I found through like COVID was creative ways to to get the workout done. And, you know, in your basement or in your home, because every one wasn't going anywhere. And so I think that these micro workouts sort of became started to get popular then, and I've had him on my podcast podcast a few times, Dr. Jake wish, he has this x three bar, which is cool, like I got really into the x three, over COVID. Now I do it from time to time, it's not every workout, I do like traditional lifting as well. But one of the things I learned from doing that is, gosh, I would do, you know, short sort of upper body workouts and lower body workouts, I sort of split it like that. And, and they weren't long workouts, but I found that I was building muscle. And one of the things that I learned was also using resistance bands was a little bit easier on the joints. And so I've implemented that with a lot of the 40 plus year old individuals that I work with, because, you know, I don't think everyone's meant to like necessarily, not everyone's meant to like benchpress, I don't think I think especially as you get older, you know, might be tough on the shoulders, the joints. And if you can find a better way to maybe utilize different tools in the weight room to help with joint integrity, I think, you know, resistance bands is something that I never used to use. And now I use it from time to time. And it's it's effective.

Philip Pape: 47:26

And that this is consistent with your principle of the whole theme of the show, which is, if you're not going to go into the gym and do a benchpress, you might as well do something that's just about as effective. That's not a benchpress like it's the zero versus doing it. And the shoulders and all these other connective tissues. People can you know, people have issues with those, and they have surgeries, and maybe they may have an injury or whatever, I've had shoulder surgery, and I'm seeing how that affects different things. And you can get creative, you get different grips and bars and whatnot. But right? I do, I used to be a little more dogmatic about dogmatic myself, and like you said, there's many ways to Rome and many roads to Rome, so to speak with this, you call it an activity upgrade. So tell me about that.

Brian Gryn: 48:09

I call it an activity upgrade. I guess that depends on the individual. Okay. But if this is some of that's coming from not doing much at all, obviously any activity or work, you know, it'll it'll help. You know, I think that if it's someone that's more experienced, then it's then it's wrapping your arms around, you know, building muscle as you get older, which obviously can be more difficult, but I'm sure with you, you see with your clients, and Andy Baker, who I've had on my podcast talks about being really you can build muscle, no matter I mean, he has I know, he's got some clients that are really up there. And they're, you know, deadlifting and doing things that most 20 year olds can't do. So I think it depends on the goal of the individual, but the upgrade is finding a way to get the time efficient workout in. So it sort of takes the excuses out. And that's one of the reasons why I like you know, some type of like 20 minute workout that that we can establish. So we'll try to build a routine in 20 minutes. And you know, they have to be efficient. And it's maybe not like they're not like training to be a bodybuilder, but they're just training to find a way to stay consistent, and still build muscle in a short period of time.

Philip Pape: 49:15

I love it, man. So to two things came to mind now that you brought this up. One is the idea of the short workouts, I think, I don't know if it was when I was talking to Dr. Eric helms or who it was, but the question often comes up what can I split my workouts for example, like what if I do do want to do an hour long, full body workout, but I just don't have the time? And maybe I have a home gym? Because it's harder. You don't want to like drive to a gym twice a day usually? And the answer is not only Yes, but a maybe it is slightly more effective to split your split, split them up because you have been in recovery and you can go all go all out in that second session. Whereas if it was on the second half of the first session, you'd be fatigued. And so I wanted to point that out. It's it's it's great advice from a efficiency and performance perspective, but then also the time efficient work. Coutts, Brian Borstein is coming on. And he's a huge fan of intensity techniques. And when he talked about upgrading your activity, I thought, Oh, that's good way to think about, like always improving and personal growth, even if you are an intermediate lifter, who does all those moves, and you just want to keep getting better. And you want to save time, what can you do, right, and so like the mile reps, and the drop sets, and all that fun stuff comes into play. The point is, listen to what Brian's saying here. And like, Don't make excuses, there is something that will work for you, whatever level you're starting from. So I love your message on that. Yeah.

Brian Gryn: 50:33

And I mean, as far as improving, one of the things I've been doing a little bit more, which I never used to do is log my workouts. And we talked about that maybe on my podcast, and you know, you can use an app, or you can write it in a journal, but I think logging helps it sort of understand sort of where you're at, I never used to do that. But then like, the next time you go into the gym, even if you increase it by a little bit, two and a half pounds, I know you can also increase it other ways, right? By by rep range and things like that. But just finding that variable that you want to increase. And I think it helps get you into, like a healthy habit of just creating those wins when we talked about right, like it makes you feel a bit Oh, last time I did 185 10 times. And now I just did 190 for 10 times, you know, and so I think those creating those small wins, helps motivation and helps you coming back and sort of get you going to stay consistent and you know, improve every time. And people

Philip Pape: 51:29

need to hear that I still get questions like, Oh, should I log my workouts and I'm flabbergasted right? Because I just assume that you're gonna log your workouts. But I guess when you go back in time, and think you know, when you're in your 20s, going to the gym and just say I'm gonna do upper body today. And next time I'm going to do lower body and say you weren't logging, you're missing out on a huge opportunity for tracking your and measuring your outcome, like you said, and then improving, getting the win getting motivated. Hey, look, I'm looking 10 more pounds. I really want to go to the gym again to get another five pounds. Good stuff, man. All right, we're wrapping out on time here. So I do like to ask a question of all guests. And that is because we did go through your six pillars, your six principles. What one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Brian Gryn: 52:10

Well, how about this? I asked everyone on my podcast, what one tip would you give that individual who's looking to get their body back or her mind potentially what it once was 1520 years ago, or 10 years ago. So I mean, I for me, I think a big habit that's really influenced my life, in the most positive manner is daily walks. So simple, everyone, for the most part can do it. And I think it's a great way to get out in nature, maybe get some sun if you're not in Chicago, and you're somewhere else where the sun actually comes out. But you still get sun even with the clouds, right? And we talk about your sort of diurnal rhythms throughout the day. You know, cortisol is one thing that, you know, sort of starts higher in the morning, and then slowly drifted towards night. And I think getting up in the morning can help that, and also help you with quality sleep. So morning walks, I love if you can't, if the morning doesn't work, I always say your best bet next after that is walking after meals and help with blood sugar regulation and help with digestion. And it's just yeah, I mean, it's just something I have two dogs, so I'm sort of forced into that. But even when I go on vacation, I still do it. And it just got me into that habit of doing it getting up and going putting on your gym shoes. And so I like to find things that are that are sort of excuse proof. And and do them.

Philip Pape: 53:34

I love it. Yeah. And you even opened up the excuse people make about, like, if it's cold or whatever, embrace it, I hate Right. Like if people ask me that they say, What do you do when it's cold or rainy day? I said, Well, why? What does that mean? You can't walk just because it's cooler, throw on a nice big coat, you know, enjoy the freshness of it all and the smell the rain or whatever, you know, like find a positive way to do that. If not, you're gonna be walking around your house a lot. And that that'll that'll do the job too, I guess.

Brian Gryn: 54:00

I mean, yeah, I guess that's, that would be a second. So I'm looking right now, I'm going to take my dogs out after this. And I'm looking at it, it's raining. But you know, we go most of the time the dogs don't mind unless it's like really cold. And then and then their paws can't last last long time because of the assault and all that. But like, I mean, it's 40 and raining. You know, you put some layers on you put a hood on and you go and you can happen. I think it's and I think just goes back to just the positive like putting in positive habits and creating that positive momentum for the day small wins. And like I was just reading limitless Jim quick. And they he just talks about even just like making your bed first thing in the morning. Like okay, you just did something right like that. It's creating momentum in a positive manner. Because, you know, I talk about this and there's another great book called and I'm drawing a blank but time will either expose you or or be on your side. And so it could be On your side if you if you start doing positive things that that'll that'll serve you and your health,

Philip Pape: 55:05

we'll leave it on that message. It's a great message, Brian. I had a lot of fun talking with you today. And I want listeners to be able to find you. So tell us where they can learn more about you and your

Brian Gryn: 55:14

work best place. It's just Brian green.com, sort of the hub for everything. And yeah, I'm on Instagram at my handle has changed a bit, but it's Brian, underscore Men's Health is by Instagram handle. And, yeah, you can find everything stepladder system, my book, it's all there, both in PDF and in self cover. Yeah,

Philip Pape: 55:36

and I encourage everyone to check those out. I'll throw those in the show notes, Brian green.com. Or at Brian underscore Men's Health and I'll even include the link directly to the stepladder system. Make it easy for folks. And of course your podcast. Get Lean eat clean. I'll make sure the link is right and let people know. Thanks again for coming on, man Bill. Thanks for having me. I loved it. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong