Lisa Franz: 0:00

I think people sometimes struggle with is when they hear a your diet needs to feel sustainable, but then we put them in a calorie deficit. So by definition that shouldn't be sustainable because they're consuming less. So even though I try to show people Hey, the style of eating should feel sustainable, but your quote unquote complaining that you're really hungry and it doesn't feel sustainable.

Philip Pape: 0:27

Welcome to the Wits& Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition. We'll uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits& Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm excited to welcome nutrition expert Lisa France to the show, Lisa and I met through podcasting and the nutrition coaching industry. And I had the pleasure of recording an interview on her show the nutrition and life podcast, Lisa and I will discuss the importance of breaking the extreme diet cycle, how to find sustainability and balance when it comes to nutrition training lifestyle. Lisa will reveal how to maintain a healthy lifestyle as we age strategies for being consistent while traveling and principles of effective training. She's also going to share her personal experiences and insights on how to create a balanced life without feeling guilty, deprived or sacrificing your well being. Lisa has a master's in exercise science, health promotion and nutrition and is the CEO and founder of nutrition coaching and life. She's also the host of the nutrition and life podcast. Lisa teaches people to navigate their own nutrition so that they know how much and what to eat, whether they want to lose weight gain muscle or recomp. She believes that learning to work nutrition around your life is one of the most important aspects throughout this journey. Nutrition should enhance one's life not make it harder. Lisa, it's great to see you again. And I want to welcome you to the show.

Lisa Franz: 2:06

I'm very excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely.

Philip Pape: 2:10

I'm also looking forward to this conversation. And I want to kind of take a step back and ask you about your personal values like what is it that drove you to start helping people navigate their nutrition, and then eventually start nutrition coaching in life and your podcast?

Lisa Franz: 2:25

That's a great question. And to make it really short, and it sounds quite cliche, but still, my personal values and also the values of the company nutrition coaching and life is simply to help people improve their lives, whether that is through physical changes, through getting them to be more active or mindset changes, or simply learning to be more present and living every day as if it was, you know, the best day. That is those are all great strategies, but simply to put it in a nutshell, to help people improve their lives.

Philip Pape: 3:04

And it couldn't be more simple than that on one hand, and on the other hand, people struggle with this right? And, you know, one of the things I admire about you and your work and your podcast is you focus on helping people understand the What the Why the how, and I do listen your podcasts now and one of the most recent episodes you have is about protein powders. And sometimes you get into these technical topics others are a little more general or about mindset and and so on. So besides other coaches like me who geek out on that stuff all the time. Why is it important that everyday people who are just trying to like you said improve their lives, learn about these details and get educated.

Lisa Franz: 3:42

Because in the end, we only have one life and if we don't enjoy our lives and I truly believe that we need to continuously work on improving ourselves in order to enjoy our life fully and long term. Yes, we can have immediate pleasure but it's different. If you have long term goals, long term visions, and you continuously climb a ladder as opposed to having these highs and lows. And I think in order to do so nutrition plays a huge role or how we feel it provides us with mental clarity it provides us to be able to perform as best as we can whether that is mentally or physically and I myself have experienced what it's like to feel like nutrition is consuming too much of your life too much too much of your thoughts in essence and also what it is like to feel restricted through nutrition so I as you introduced me nicely. I believe nutrition should enhance one's life and should enrich experiences as we will possibly get a little bit into I myself I travel a lot. I love exploring different cultures. I believe food is so much more than just nourishment and It is social aspect, it is community, it is tradition, it is culture. And if we do it wrongly, then of course, all of that can lead to us being overweight or having a quote unquote, sugar addiction or you know, whatever it might be. And then eventually, we don't enjoy food as much anymore or at the same time, the background that I have is more from like a restrictive side. So I always thought, I need to eat less, I need to train way too hard. I went through various, very restrictive diets, like cutting out carbs, completely paleo, really low fat, like whatever it might have been. And I always thought this cannot be it food is so amazing. Why do I have to like, completely restrict myself and I cannot have that cake at my friend's birthday party or whatever, because I'm low carb, like, and eventually I found out more or learned more rather about calorie balance and how it really all just comes mostly down to that, yes, of course, food quality matters, but still mostly comes down to, to calories in calories out. And I found immense freedom with that. And so I guess that is part of the reason why I just want to share that with people to help them enjoy everyday life while getting the most out of it and find that freedom as well.

Philip Pape: 6:28

Yeah, you touched on so many themes there that will resonate with the listener and myself. And as you and I talked on your show that we've you go through years, maybe decades of experimenting with all these things, because you may not have the information, or you just haven't had the clarity. And a lot of what you talked about there was shifting even how we look at food, right? We look at it as a form of fuel of performance. You talked about mental clarity, not restricting and having freedom. And the irony here is I often hear from people who are maybe a little bit ignorant about it or having, you know, been struggling, that the types of tools we use, whether it's counting macros or something else seem restrictive and seem difficult. And yet those are the very things that teach us the skill to give us the freedom, would you would you kind of agree with that philosophy?

Lisa Franz: 7:21

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it even though I just said, you know, everything, more or less everything in moderation, and I believe believe we should enjoy things, there has to be some form of healthy restriction. And, of course, the research is very clear on this also that technically, any kind of diet, quote unquote, works when it comes to weight loss, and people should just stick the one that they can't pick the one that they can stick with the best. So that's not to say that for someone else, a low carb or keto or whatever diet doesn't work, it just really was not for me. And so again, you mentioned the point of education and how I like to explain things to people. And I think most people are just going to adhere or they're going to adhere long term and adhere better if they understand why they do what they do. And like you mentioned to and what sort of tools they have the possibility to have some of the reason why low carb was so restrictive for me was because I thought that that was the only way I could lose weight. And I thought that that's what I had to do. And then when someone explained, you can restrict carbs, but you could also restrict fat. And in the end, you know, pick your calories, pick your evil, and it doesn't have to be the one thing or the one day and in for the rest of your life. You can choose your tools. And I was like, Whoa, that's like mind blowing. Okay, I didn't know I had all these different options. For sure.

Philip Pape: 8:47

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you also hear it since you talked about the low carb and low fat or you can go anyway, I think there's also besides misinformation, there's almost deliberate strawman arguments that are made for some of these things like, well, you know, if you cut out carbs, you're gonna lose weight. And when you look at how we define carbs, that's where we get into tricky situations, right? Where somebody says, Yeah, look, pizza, and doughnuts are carbs and like, Well, wait, it's not just carbs, carbs and fat, and it's highly palatable and very dense and all you start adding all these parameters to them. So, but people then gravitate to these things, because the they're kind of easy to understand and grasp onto. And but then before long, you find out that Oh, my God, I have to constantly like, say no to things and be the weird person at these social situations. So this extreme dieting and this cycle of dieting, right, because it's not just one extreme diet, probably if you've tried one, you've tried many over and over again. What are some of the signs that someone is just stuck there and spinning their wheels? And then how can they break free and do what you're saying and find a sustainable approach?

Lisa Franz: 9:51

I love this question. And I think deep down even though many people are perhaps not, not always that honest. With themselves in the sense of how unhappy they possibly are with this up and down, but of course, a we're gonna see some physical disadvantages as in, weight goes up and down all the time. And I mean, who honestly is really happy with that if it's unintentional, especially if you if you constantly like over the holidays, you gain your 15 pounds or whatever, and then you crash diet, and then you just for your next vacation, and then you gain the gain 20 pounds back. And for most people also, it's not just a yo yo back and forth. It's also a steady but slow, incremental incline or increase over the years. And that adds up to poor health. And, again, if we're honest with ourselves, when we have those extra 20 pounds, we're probably not feeling that great in the gym. And if we're honest with ourselves, when we're that super restrictive. On the other end, we're probably also not sleeping that great, maybe not in the best mood, maybe not covering all our micronutrients. So in the end, it comes down to I think, realizing that for most people, at least a general moderation where you don't have these huge fluctuations is probably better, physically, but also mentally. And most people that come to us, they have recognized that more from a well, I guess, from both sides, but also from a mental perspective where they just say like, I don't, I don't want to feel guilty about eating that or I still want to go on vacation at the same time. But what I have done in the past with doesn't that strict diet, I couldn't do that. And so like we hear all these things, and yeah, my methods or what has worked for me, and for most of our clients also as well as that education piece that I mentioned earlier in the sense of, it's really don't, let's not look at food as good or bad. It's all just food, right? There are things we should have more of because there are more nutritious, denser in micronutrients, and probably not as dense in macronutrients. And then there are other foods that are should be that should be more like the occasional type food. And but in the end, you're technically quote unquote allowed to eat anything that you want. And you have this in that budget, just manage it like you would with an income or so. So that's part number one for a lot of people, especially if they come from this year long, restrictive mindset. Of course, it doesn't click right away. I mean, an attitude towards food that you have possibly adopted from when you were a child onwards. Um, you know, if your mom always used to tell you, Oh, carbs are bad. 20 years later, just because I tell you, carbs are just food. It's not going to suddenly be like, oh, yeah, okay, cool. I'm just gonna eat all the parts.

Philip Pape: 12:52

Cool. Cool. One out of the last 100 Fitness influencers, they said says this different thing, it's going to work.

Lisa Franz: 12:58

Exactly. No. So the, the key here, it really is a slow and incremental, I guess almost demonstration of its okay, so let's just say if someone starts with really low calories, like maybe, just because people always use that number, 1200 calories, whatever. And I calculate what their calories should actually be, I'm not going to say the next day from tomorrow onwards, you have to eat 2100 calories, that would be absolutely insane. And most people would not do that. So you know, we might slowly taper up those calories. On the other hand, also, when it comes to food quality, or eating out and fears around that, I might encourage them and be like, hey, once or twice a week, I do want you to go out with your husband or with your friends and have a meal out I don't just want you to eat at home all the time, because you're afraid of gaining weight from eating out. What we can do is that you show me where you plan to go. And I would show you you know what is possibly a good pic or how you could estimate for how much that is etc. or small, quote unquote treat foods or foods that they're specifically afraid of instead of them thinking, I'm off my diet. Now I'm going to have three pieces of cake. Maybe we can just get into the habit of like sharing a piece of dessert with your husband on day nine versus so it really is that slow. Taking that fear away, and then perhaps you step on the scale the next day or two days later, and you see like, oh, okay, it's actually still pretty much the same. We're still trending down even though I ate what I thought was that so like I, for instance, used to believe again, carbs would inherently lead to weight gain. And yes, I mean, of course if we look at them, cars do anything to water etc. Initially, an increase in carbs can make the scale go up, but it's not fat weight. So learning that and seeing the data that's where I think data It comes in so handy where you can be like, Hey, let's look at those correlations. Actually, truthfully, you're the scale is still trending down. So yeah. takes time.

Philip Pape: 15:10

Yeah. And you just, you just laid out like five very, really very good models and ways to think of this because 99% of this game is up here, right? It's up in the if it's up in the brain, and a lot of what you were suggesting, let's get into specifics. You said, Think of it like a budget, right? It's managing like an income. And I love that analogy I use all the time myself, some people have challenged me on it, because yeah, there's differences between every analogy, but the idea that with a budget, you can spend your money however you want, but you only have this much money, and you only have this, you know, these buckets. That's a great one, you also said that your attitude ingrained from childhood is, it's like a slow ship that you have to turn around, it's very difficult. So we can't expect overnight success, which led your next concept of slow and incremental demonstration of it's okay of taking that fear away, I'm just, I'm parroting this stuff back to you. Because it's gold, like for the listener to realize that this is not a quick fix. But it's totally doable. And when you say slow years, you're still only talking a few months, you don't even a few weeks, in some cases with the right coaching, which in the scheme of life is a drop in the bucket. So I love it on and then meal planning and so on. We talked about that a lot in this show totally aligned there. And the correlations, you mentioned data and looking at correlations, your weight might go up and down two pounds, you know, one day to the next. But what's happened in your waist size? How do you feel? What are your what's your pant size? You know, did you eat like a slice of cake and actually lose weight? Like you can't, you know, you have to figure it all out. So I'm just I love this. Lisa, I'm just restating things. And I'll get to a question now. So, okay, so we're talking about sustainability. And we talked about missing information. So is, are their content? This is a very individualized approach. Right? So sustainability itself is a flexible word for the individual. Would you agree? And how do you find how does someone find their form of sustainability?

Lisa Franz: 17:02

It certainly is incredibly individual. And what I think people sometimes struggle with is when they hear about your diet needs to feel sustainable, but then we put them in a calorie deficit. So by definition that shouldn't be sustainable, because they're consuming less. So even though I try to show people hate, the style of eating should feel sustainable, but your quote unquote, complaining that you're really hungry, and it doesn't feel sustainable. So while we're trying to lose weight, still acknowledging that hunger in a dieting phase is to be expected, even if it is the quote unquote, right diet for you. Um, it's almost as more of a signal of like, Hey, this is working, your body's actually burning more than what would your intaking. So we cannot fully say like in a dieting phase, you should, it should feel sustainable. But nonetheless, again, the style of eating. So like the foods that you're eating overall in the method should feel sustainable. And I think a really important part here is the consistency part. So learning for people that it's okay to be consistent 80 to 90% of the time, and those other 10 to 20% of the time, not feeling like they messed up not feeling like, okay, now I can take the whole week off, not feeling like they need to be perfect all the time, I think that can take a lot of pressure off. And at the same time, that can give us a lot of content contingencies. So if we have both of that, if we just realize it really does come down to what we do the majority of the time, and if every now and then we go above calories, if every now and then we're not meeting our protein needs of every now and then food quality was a little bit lower because you're traveling or whatever that is okay. But don't let that trip you up and just keep going. So consistency and confidence and sustainability, I think they just go hand in hand. And once you learn that, it really doesn't have to be you don't have to be perfect. Nobody is perfect. Nobody can be perfect all the time. I know we hear it all the time. But when it comes to nutrition, I think still most people have that picture in mind that they that we always feel need to feel great and need to, you know, like, put the best effort forward. It's just it just doesn't happen.

Philip Pape: 19:25

Oh, you said so many great things there as well. And the one I really took from this was how, if if you're in a fat loss phase, it is true. We couldn't be in a fat loss phase forever. That's not what we're talking about sustainability. And you're right, you have symptoms like hunger and so on. But you mentioned that the principles that the types of foods, those are what's sustainable, and another way to look at it that that rang true to me was we use this periodization of fat loss and maintenance and muscle building to also make it sustainable as opposed to just randomly going through life. reacting all the time and feeling like you've had no hope. So that's what I got from at least and I know you hopefully the listener hears that. That's very powerful, very powerful statement. So then that leads to maybe balance when we talk about, you said, being able to eat whatever you want, but not indiscriminately. There's some restraint to it. And you also talked about the mental side of it, and the training and the periodization. So how do you define balance? With all those things? Nutrition, lifestyle mindset, and why is that so important?

Lisa Franz: 20:34

Yeah, balance in and off itself, the word I think is so often abused, also, just hit router, like work life balance. And I know we're probably going to talk about that a little bit also. But for me balance when it comes to food is just, once again, not going overboard. Like I'm a big proponent of stoic philosophies. And the one of the stoic principles is Temperance is moderation. And I love that, unfortunately, this is not a concept that in modern society is there love, like even the you know, TV, and whatever is basically telling us, you're gonna gain 20, whatever, over Christmas. And this is your period of time where you can go all out. And at the same time, then they're advocating for the next diet, pill and whatever. So again, from often not necessarily young age onwards, but like, from a societal standpoint, we are encouraged to go overboard on the weekends go overboard, when you're on vacation. But that whole principle of like, hey, maybe let's moderate our portions. And it's, we don't have to have three appetizers, a huge main and everybody a single dessert, like, why can't we just like, share a little bit and then have a main and then maybe today, it doesn't have to be dessert because you had some alcohol. So I think it's really hard to grasp. But I also believe that once people see how good it feels, it to live in that moderate place, that they don't want to go back. So initially, quite often, when people perhaps observe my lifestyle, or other people that have been practicing moderation for some time, they think you're a bit uptight most of the time, like, why don't you just let loose?

Philip Pape: 22:30

You're very disciplined, right? Like, like a monk, you know?

Lisa Franz: 22:35

Yeah. Or why why? Why do you want to stop after two glasses of wine? There's still three bottles to go under pressure. Right now, like, why do I need to keep going like to is my limit? I know that for myself, why can't I just, you know, stop right here. But then, after a while, if people get to know you better, and they see how that then maybe the next day that allows you to get up early and train? Oh, that's actually pretty cool. As opposed to laying in bed for half of the day. And, and so on. Like, I often hear like, Oh, you're so consistent with everything that you do. Yes, moderation allows you to do that. If you constantly go through ups and downs and extremes. I believe that that is what causes periods of, well, I guess, where you can train, where you're just fatigued, where you burn out, etc. So I guess to answer your question, um, balance and moderation, something that you have to practice again, it really comes down to that.

Philip Pape: 23:39

Yeah, you're the way you're the way your mind works. Lisa, I really I really admire I can tell you're, you're well read, like you really dig into philosophy and think about these things. Because you, you just defined balance as not living in extremes all the time, which is interesting, because you could say that one extreme balances out another. And you're saying that, well, in that moment, you're not balanced, and you're constantly living in a state of imbalance in the extremes, which is, again, a subtle but profound concept. And but you also said, practicing moderation. Now, my challenge would always be to statement like that, well, how does someone get there in the first place? Right? And you said, go by how it feels. I just did an episode about why you should track your food and the number one, the number one reason or not, number one reason the number one tactic was how does it make you feel that that was where I started. And that resonated with me because I see clients all the time who they'll say in their check in my when this week was I had I ate such and such at night. I didn't feel great the next day, you know, because they're adapted to a better you know, higher quality food and then like and I just don't eat that anymore. And that kind of reminded me of that of you build it and you learn the discipline of temper, temperance and moderation. It's not like you just sort of turn a switch and habit so

Lisa Franz: 24:58

that's actually the point I do want to add One thing you said, go by how it feels. And I think the tricky part is that, um, for the most part, we again speaking as like a society have Miss learned if that's a word to to, to really listen to our body, our mind and how we feel. So my encouragement there is to a slow down like in a social setting is slowing down and adding pauses. That always sounds like so weird too. But But still, it helps so much because you cannot observe how you feel if you don't pause to observe how you feel right? Like, again, your example right there. I said the person the person observed the next day how they felt, if they perhaps would have stopped after whatever Two plates of food that they had, or a glass of wine or whatever, and just thought like, do I really need this next plate or drink? Maybe they would have said no, maybe they would have said yes, I don't know. But at least having that opportunity to change the behavior, we need to give ourselves that. So slowing down would be part number one. And then also like being more present, observant and pausing from time to time will be part number two. Without those two, you cannot shift that pattern of like just following what you have always been doing or following what society tells you to do. You know, you're on Friday night, you're supposed to just go crazy and create what you want. So no, it really is being present, being in the moment slowing down and asking yourself, Do I really need this. And then of course, lastly, it really comes down to practicing to say no more often. And that's a really unpopular and unsexy concept because we might lose friends in the process of that we might, you know, it really demands some big habit changes sometimes, but in the end learning to say no more often. And you can say no, in a really polite way. You can say oh, hey, no, thank you. I don't need a second helping. This was really delicious. I really appreciate it. Maybe I can take something home. But right now, I don't want any more. And, you know, some, initially, some people might try to push more on you or they might be offended or whatever. But it's okay, just realizing this is going to pass. At least I'm going to feel great tomorrow and the day after and whatever. And that person is going to forget about it in five minutes. Like

Philip Pape: 27:19

yeah, no, don't, don't be a people pleaser. And some people are more prone to that than others. Even in addition to the situation you mentioned, perhaps the people they live with or around all the time, kind of just habitually doing things that sabotage them, maybe not intentionally, but they sometimes have to have that difficult conversation of here's how you can support me and just understand I'm doing this for my health. But there you laid another truth bomb for us there, Lisa about slowing down and using pauses. And it reminded me I always like to tie things to other topics like you did with the budget. But when it comes to podcasting, talking to people, even debating whatever it is slowing down, and listening is a very important skill. And what you're saying is slow down and listen to your body because it's trying to tell you things. So maybe I'm just silly coming up with these analogies. But these are this is what comes to me when you think about it. Right? So what what about you personally, so we haven't, I know we kind of brushed over the opening statement and then move on into the questions. You know, your your business owner, your coach, your podcast host, you're a great person, from what I can tell, how do you balance your life? How do you balance your nutrition, your training, your relationships, your emotional health, all of the things we've talked about to make it all work?

Lisa Franz: 28:31

So yeah, again, in this context, really, I think the word balance is super tricky, because we're up and up the understanding of like, it should mean that all parts of life are equal, and that's just totally unrealistic. So point number one, we need to acknowledge that we go through different stages of life, and that balance is going to shift I, I either I like to think of it as like a bucket and you only have a one bucket and you can distribute the the things in there, however you like, you know, like sometimes it might be a glass pool for work and two glasses full for personal life and half a glass for emotional life, whatever, like you have this, this amount and you can distribute it however, of course, ideally, we should have a little bit distributed at each one of them at all times. But as a 20 year old, of course you're you in single you might have a lot more energy and drive to put that towards your physical health and in your 30s or when you have children whatever it might go more towards family or should potentially go more towards family at different stages, even throughout the year or even throughout the month, the week. Your work might have to take up a lot and your you have to dial your physical training back to the minimum. So I always I like to make sure I have my minimum I covered on all bases at all times. And I won't lie, my lifestyle was probably reasonably unique. And well in a way that I'm, I live alone I travel. I'm a digital nomad. So I don't know a lot of people around me most of the time, like my family is remote. Also, I see them once a year for a couple of months, and then very intensely, but otherwise, it really like my relationships, I guess, are probably rather few in comparison to a lot of other people. And I don't have family. So you know, I can devote all my attention towards my physical health, and my business, which I love. So that is very different to most people, I think, especially a lot of our clients, they often say, I'm struggling fitting in my workouts with all my kids. And of course, I think no matter who you are, where you're at, one of the most important things you can do is get super clear on your priorities and like re evaluate them on a regular basis, because again, they are going to potentially shift places a little bit on a regular basis. And that's okay, or actually, it's the man at sometimes. So if you are clear on your priorities that makes saying yes or no to whatever comes up so incredibly easy. So I just shared like, one of my priorities is my physical health and like pushing my training, I get joy out of it, and so on. So if someone would say to me, like, Hey, Lisa, tonight, Friday night, there is an open mic at 1130. At the start, you want to come along, I'd be like, Nope, I don't have to think about that for a second because I want to be in the gym tomorrow morning at six o'clock. So, you know, for someone else who's like, well, I don't know right now, like my family is my focus, it might also be an easy decision, because you should probably spend if your family is your priority, and you're working all night long, you might want to go to the bar tonight. But since you said your family is your priority, you should probably stay home have like a pizza and movie night with them instead. And then spend the weekend with them quality time as opposed to sleeping in tomorrow morning. And you know, whatever it is. So just being really, really clear on your priorities. I think it makes everything easier. And then you can shift those then you can establish your own life work whatever balance

Philip Pape: 32:24

right like shifting calories around, you know for the day.

Unknown: 32:28

That's a Philippe an awfully for a long time and know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably relief helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape: 33:12

Yeah, that that is so good. So again, we're talking the theme of it's not so much balance as living moderately within your within your capacity and for the time that you're in. But then, but then putting everything you can or at least as much as you can to the things that really matter right now. It's kind of the way I look at it, I like that you're, you're like we have this permission to not neglect things, but to put them at their minimum for a while, while others go up. And by the way, if you focus on something pretty intensely for a while and develop that mastery, it's going to help make everything else easier, right? Like physical health will make, you know, earning your wealth and developing your relationships easier. You know, having healthy relationships will reduce your stress so that you can, you know, maybe have burned more calories so you can eat more and train and so on. So again, this is Lisa, really amazing insight for folks to think of it this way. Getting clear on your priorities are what are the thing comes to mind there is I just told a friend of mine yesterday, I said, Man, does it ever stop. Like when we're going for mastery in anything? Do we ever stop to the day we die and of course we're never really going to stop but you could put something on pause and you could coast and by having focused on one thing for enough to be happy where you are at that level. Go ahead and coast on that for a while, you know, keep maintain it, but post on it. It's a great, that's a great that's a

Lisa Franz: 34:33

great point. I think muscle mass or physical like training status is a great example. Like it takes so much more and longer to build up muscle mass but then training it. You actually really don't need that much volume for a couple of months. I think a lot of people saw that over COVID lock downs and they were like, oh, okay, it might have taken a couple of weeks for strength to come back or for you to feel good again in the gym, but general At least speaking, muscle mass is reasonably easy to maintain. And again, like with anything else if you're if you had established a routine, and it really has had become an automated method routine, getting back into that, after a little bit time off is reasonably easy, as opposed to start with something completely new.

Philip Pape: 35:19

Yeah, no, that's a great one, too. I think it's like 116 to 1/8 the amount of like intensity or volume to maintain your muscle mass. So you're right. It's, it's like, that's your reward for having gotten there. I think of food in a similar way. Like once you've added muscle mass, and you're moving all the time, now you've got more calories to play with. Well, now it's a lot easier to you know, you don't even really have to dye it technically in the way you used to because it's just easier. Right? Okay, so, ah, let's talk about training a little bit. How about that? Okay, great. Yeah, sometimes I segue smoothly. And sometimes I'm like, let's just change right now. Next book. So I am curious about your perspective, because we talked about that a lot on the show, you know, it's Wits, & Weights? What are some of the let's talk principles? Again, you're you're big into principles systems, not not necessarily the methods so much, what are the big training principles that you live by,

Lisa Franz: 36:09

and I can pick up from the nutrition aspect from earlier consistency, like full stop, I, we can preface this completely with just this one word. And, again, even though we just spoke about taking some time off, generally speaking, though, if you can make it into the gym twice a week for the rest of your life and move for like, 45 minutes or so, you're gonna be in a good place. Like, that's already something I mean, anything on top of that is going to be great. And let's put like walking in sort of day to day activity aside. But yeah, those the two, three sessions three will be even better. Mmm, that's great. Like I personally, since I have a lot of time,

Philip Pape: 36:50

yeah, sorry. No, no, let's stop there. Because people need to understand, look, what is it take for the rest of your life to do something twice a week for like, an hour or two? And now I want you to ask, How often do you watch Netflix? So there you go. Can you do it? I think you could do it very easily

Lisa Franz: 37:04

keep it very, very good. And I mean, we're literally talking about like, 45 minutes to an hour in there. So yes, absolutely. Kind of makes you feel great. So why not? Yeah. So I mean, you said Wits,& Weights. And I automatically kind of like assumed we were talking about strength training, because I'm totally of the same opinion not to say that cardiovascular health isn't important. But I think most of the time, we're most of the clientele that we deal with. And they come more from an endurance type background, or maybe like, group fitness style background. So the challenge was more to get them into structured strength training, pushing the weights up, increasing risk times, and getting away from just chasing the burn chasing the sweat. And again, I come from, I'm saying that or I'm now at this point, because I was somewhere completely different. In the past, I have more of a CrossFit background, I used to believe if I don't lie on the ground, sweating, or if something didn't hurt, then it wasn't a good workout. A long way since then, and have learned most importantly a lot since then. And now I know that a soreness really isn't a good indicator for how good your workout was, or how effective your warhead was. And be in order to improve body composition to increase my lean body mass, which is so helpful for just longevity, metabolism, like you name it, I really don't need to be doing or not just that, like those circuits had training. CrossFit is not the most optimal style, particularly for someone with a stressful lifestyle. Again, if you are a 19 year old, teenager, whatever, em who has nothing to do, but train and recover and sleep and eat. prospered can be a great sport for you. But for most people, particularly if you're easily stressed and you don't sleep too well. And it's likely not the best form for your health or your physique. And again, people that come to us, they are really mostly interested in the aesthetics and of course longevity. They always say like, I want to feel sure sure

Philip Pape: 39:27

they say that and it's like okay, let's let's get you the short term results as well. Just so you know, you know that it all ties together.

Lisa Franz: 39:36

So yeah, I guess to expand further beyond the three training sessions or so per week. The kind of training split that then follows I think is determined by how much you can train if you can train more than three times per week. I do prefer often a body parts split or upper lower split, or push pull legs or something I like that very few people or hardly anybody that I work with trains six days a week, to be honest. Um, but anywhere, like if you do three, three days per week or two, I certainly advocate for more of a full body split just because we do want to hit those muscle groups like twice a week, like each muscle group. And we're simply more on the safe side with with a full body split in that regard. But yeah, I usually base my programming around, of course, a little bit of a warm up, but around the compound lifts, and then a little bit of accessory work compounds meaning squats, deadlifts, presses, just those big movers where we in clewd, a lot of muscle group groups or big muscles. And then the accessories I do think are incredibly important, often overlooked. And when I say compounds that can also sometimes be for someone see single leg barbell deadlift with various

Philip Pape: 40:58

multiple compounds with dumbbells and so on. Yeah.

Lisa Franz: 41:03

I do think almost everybody has a stronger side and a weaker side identifying that and then kind of balancing things more out with unilateral stuff, or as you said, with various types of equipment to address one side more than the other can be really helpful. But yeah, I tend to keep workouts under an hour or have around about an hour. Because I don't think it needs to be more than that. And oftentimes the mind starts to drift for people that are already halfway at work or not to

Philip Pape: 41:30

mention the depleted carbs by that point. Yeah, yes. Oh, so this is great. Because, man, for the people listening, they hear this stuff over and over because I say it, but I like to have guests on like you that I mean, we are 100% in alignment, these, these are the bedrock principles you talked about. And you just stated them so elegantly. I like in one sentence, you said structured, pushing the weights up, increasing the rest times, not chasing the burn. I'm like, right there, those are the opposite of what a lot of people are doing, right? They're not structured, they're just exercising, like I like talked about the difference between exercise and training training, they're not pushing weights up, it's the same way day after day after day. They have like 32nd rest periods, and they don't realize how amazing it is to have 2358. If you're like pushing a big heavy deadlift or something, it depends how strong you are, and then not chasing the bird, right? If your clients are saying, I'm so sore, and I'm recovering, not recovering all the time, something is off, right? That's what so I love it, all the other stuff is great, I'm not going to repeat it. But you know, folks should should keep listening to this, again, about the value of not just for your physique in the short term, but also your health in the long term. And stress is important. If you're busy, you have a job and kids and family and like Don't be doing CrossFit. Don't be doing maybe a five day 90 minute a day workout session, you know, training program.

Lisa Franz: 42:52

I think the tricky part. And again, just sharing from like personal experience, the tricky part for a lot of people is that the training feels great afterwards, right? Like, especially if you if you have had that sweat, and you're like, Oh, I feel so good right now with that release of adrenaline and all the rest of it. And so, for me, it was incredibly hard to make that connection between like, this is a stressor that can be negative for my body just like an argument with my partner or just like something at work. Because to me, it felt so good to like how can something that feels so good in the moment or afterwards be bad for me or contributed? Like I actually thought like, oh, I need this as an outlet. And so communicating that nowadays, it can be tricky to to get that buy in. Because we again, we go by how we feel right? Most of us are in this incident, we go by how we feel anyway. And so we feel great afterwards. So how was the bad for me? So, yeah, the only way to get through there, in my opinion is Well, number one education, just showing, you know, the research the data, etc. And then also saying, can we just give it a try for a little bit. Maybe after two weeks, people realize, okay, I'm not waking up four times a night anymore, because I'm overly stressed can actually get away with only once or twice. And I'm actually not feeling so beat up anymore all the time. I have energy for my work for my kids. And so then once they feel that, then you get the buy in. But yeah, it can be tricky from a coach's perspective. And of course, again, I understand from a client perspective as well.

Philip Pape: 44:32

Yeah, I mean, listeners, Lisa knows her stuff, for sure. So listen to her, Listen to me, and then try it and then get the feedback so that it proves to yourself that it works. But you're right, taking that first step. It's like if hopefully, if you sought out a coach and you're working with a coach, you're open to listening to something that's different and uncomfortable from what you've been doing, knowing that it could possibly produce an incredibly different results. So that's the philosophy you want to have. But if you're gonna if you're doing it on your own experiment, experiment, like just try Are these things you know? And see what comes of it? A few more questions, because I'm really loving this conversation, I think the listeners getting massive value from what you're saying and the way you're saying it. So. So then how do you when you are working with clients, you mentioned all these principles of training? How do you help the clients find a program that suits suits their needs? And then you mentioned things like preferences, their capacity, their equipment, all that? And do you do you actually write the programming? Or do you work with other trainers? for that?

Lisa Franz: 45:26

No, I I read the programs that we have in our training app. I will say, I think training is a little bit different, or training programs are a little bit different than nutrition. I do think with nutrition, we always have to 100% have an individualized approach. I think when it comes to training programs, the majority of people like 95% of people are probably going to do great with a good generalized program. So of course, making their individual adjustments to it if needed. But I think there's nothing wrong with going online and purchasing someone's great training program, if you if they're a trusted person, you know, and it doesn't you don't have to invest into a personal trainer or having an individualized training program. 100%. I think the the first question again, you should ask yourself is, how many days? Can I contest like overtime? Really, realistically, train? I mean, oftentimes, when starting out, we're super ambitious and think I'm going to increase to five times Well, let's, let's start smaller, right? And, and then once you know the answer,

Philip Pape: 46:38

if somebody said, I only can do it one day, would you challenge that? Would you like push them to at least try to do two? Or would you start at one?

Lisa Franz: 46:44

No, probably, I would probably start pushing them to two, just from the also getting them the results perspective. Just from of course, one is better than nothing, and so on. But aside from that, with two, they're gonna see twice the results, probably. So yeah, I just want

Philip Pape: 47:04

people to know, you know, it's not, we don't want to make excuses. You know, there's certain minimums for some of these things.

Lisa Franz: 47:09

So yeah, going by the time that you have available, and then assessing your equipment, we have a lot of people working out from their home gym, they have barbells, in most cases, dumbbells, kettlebells, that kind of stuff. And then a few people, of course, going to the gym. So I think that provides a lot of guidance already as to what kind of program program can I purchase? And then making sure that the program is the duration as well that you want not an hour and a half when you only have 45 minutes. And yeah, then I think I mean, I'm obviously coming from my perspective here. But then a good criteria should be that there's sufficient rest times in the program and kind of looking at the biggest part probably being what is my actual goal also. So meaning, if you're someone who wants to, quote unquote, shape their butt, or glutes, or whatever, and you look at the program, and there's only one lower body day in there, that's not lining up if you if you want, right, so thinking a little bit like what is my actual goal other than just building muscle or getting stronger, whatever? Do I have a particular area that I want to or need to focus on, maybe you've had an injury years ago, and you want to now build up your leg strength, maybe you have lower back issues that you need to take into consideration? And so like thinking about that, having a clear, clarity around your goal is really, really helpful when it comes to that also.

Philip Pape: 48:36

All right, cool. Just just taking notes here this this makes some sense. I like how you mentioned that a template could definitely work. I agree. I actually just interviewed Andy Baker, I don't know if you know, he's he's like co author of practical programming, and you don't seem I actually run his programs, which are most of them are templates, or they're close to it. And you kind of learned to make substitutions and things as you get more advanced and a coach can help you with that. I find that the other thing that coach is really good for us is your form and technique when you first start right just because that's a chance for injury, which which is true. I don't want to scare people about that. But also just being efficient and making progress right doing it the right way.

Lisa Franz: 49:15

Totally. I do want to add two things here. So of course still, if you can't afford a coach or so, filming yourself is actually incredibly helpful. Like if you have an exercise video that's attached to your template and then even just like once in a while, once a month filming your exercises, it can provide a lot of insight like even for mice. I mean, I've been training for like over a decade now or whatever. And sometimes I feel myself like Oh, I thought I was not running my lower back here when I go into that Romanian deadlift. And then I did like it's actually our body awareness is not that great sometimes. And yeah, the the other thing when it comes to autoregulation or so a framing program, another mistake that people generally make is program hopping too much, or changing things up too quickly. So that would be another red flag if your training program would change every week or every two weeks, even I think even every four weeks is a bit of a push. Like, I think there's technically nothing wrong with following the exact same program for 1216 weeks. If you

Philip Pape: 50:22

progress Okay, sure. Absolutely. For sure. Yeah, no, I

Lisa Franz: 50:26

do get that people sometimes feel a little bit, quote unquote, bored. But again, it's learning to sit with that a little bit, especially if you if you come from more of a group class, what I will do sometimes is I'll, you know, give the clients a bit of a finger or a hand and be like, Okay, we'll change it every six weeks, you know, so that, at least you have something to look forward to, if they're if they're getting too itchy. But yeah, to your point of like, novices not making too many changes to a program without checking with a coach or so. But if you're more experienced, and you notice all every time I do this, and that I can't actually connect to my lats as well as if I do that unilaterally or so that's, that's another issue or changing the equipment. That's no issue, you know, sticking with the general movement patterns, I think that's a good idea. But other than that, as a more advanced or intermediate lifter, totally find them exchange.

Philip Pape: 51:20

Yeah, and to your comment about avoiding program hopping and not being bored, because I'll tell you, some of my clients know, like, the very, very basic starter programs I work with them with, are pretty darn boring, right? Like they're very, very, very basic, because they're very effective for getting super strong. So what we do is we focus on other things like, and before, after about three weeks, or like, another PR, another PR, and that becomes the metric. And I'm cool with that, you know, like if that's their PR. The other thing is, so I'm more I guess, intermediate, if you will, and I just switched to another program that I had run two years ago, and everything is sore the first week, you know, because you haven't been doing those movements. Even if you're strong, it's just and so from a microcosm, if you program hop, you're going to be getting sore all the time, you're not going to be pushing certain lifts. It's one thing to change accessories on a semi weekly basis. But it's another thing to just change everything all the time. Right. It's fun stuff. I love talking about this. Okay, Lisa? So tracking Well, no, I don't let's not talk tracking, I'm actually more curious about like older folks who are like over 440 is the magic number we always use for whatever reason. What adjustments would you make, you know, and I want to look at it from a balanced approach, I guess I have, on one hand, a lot of things are the same, right? Whether No matter your almost no matter your age, no matter whether you're male or female, and then there are things that are different, right, like hormones change your lifestyle, your stress changes, your recovery capacity changes. So what kind of what's your big picture advice? Maybe in terms of principles?

Lisa Franz: 52:49

I'm generally just because someone would fill in an intake form and take 41 rather than 28, I probably would not change anything in terms of the training program, right? If they said to me, I have already had this many injuries, and I'm constantly nurturing my lower back or hip or something like that, I would approach it differently. I mean, we have always again, still have to kind of consider the individual. more from a nutritional perspective, probably, I would absolutely make sure that they're maybe not on the higher end of protein, but certainly not skimping on the lower end. I think when we're like in the early 20s, etc, we can more easily build muscle or build lean body mass and on maybe more like 0.7 grams of protein per pound of body mass. But as we get a little bit older, I do like to see it around that one gram. So that would be one part. What I do, unfortunately, caution and especially women as they enter perimenopause, and go through menopause, and so on, it's just alcohol, unfortunately, and the body just tends to be less forgiving. It's it's just a fact. So if someone wants to lose weight, and consuming more alcohol throughout that time, it's more like driving with a handbrake on, it's not impossible, it still comes down to calories, etc. But because you have those hormonal fluctuations, so that would actually be more things to pay attention to, in terms of training, still totally encouraging people to lift, heavy, progressively overload. And sticking with the same principles, really, I would, I wouldn't change anything. Maybe you know, someone really gets up there in age 70s or higher, really utilizing a lot of balance work, maybe incorporating a little bit more coordination things more, even more unilateral stuff and so on.

Philip Pape: 54:59

They've got a lot A lot to make up for for the many years. Yeah, for sure.

Lisa Franz: 55:03

Precisely. But otherwise, I think, as you said, principles remain the same.

Philip Pape: 55:08

Yeah, no, that's great. And that's what it's all about. Once you have the principles, you can build anything from that you can there's countless permutations. All right. So let me see what else. How about you? What are you doing in the future here, Lisa? Like, what are your future plans or projects? What do you have going on in your business? Just come. So

Lisa Franz: 55:25

I actually have three coaches that also work for nutrition coaching and life, which I'm super excited about. And they're three amazing ladies and x. Actually, next month, we have our very first team meetup planned in Canada. So I'm excited to meet them in person because I have known most of them for years and never met them. It's funny how, like, I love it. Internet connections, you feel like you know, people so well, and then you get to meet in person?

Philip Pape: 55:56

You know, it's gonna be, you know, it's gonna surprise you as their height. That always surprises me everything, like proportions, you can't tell?

Lisa Franz: 56:04

That's a really good point.

Philip Pape: 56:06

Just let me know, send me a message. Would you tell me if it wasn't?

Lisa Franz: 56:10

Yeah, aside from that, in terms of business, and also, personally, really, to be honest, just cracking on continuing on with what we're doing with our mission of helping people enjoy their lives more, and I'm just hoping to get to reach more more and more people throughout time. And that's it. Yeah, I truly love what I do what we do. And I mean, even in my free time, and I'm sure you can relate to this. I love reading research listening to podcasts. I would 100% continue doing what I'm doing, even if it was not for to get paid.

Philip Pape: 56:45

Yeah, that's exactly. That's what it's about. Like, it's a wonderful way to live, and you're providing value and helping people and then it happens to bring bring some income, because you know, it's worth something that people but what matters most is the mission. So Wow, congratulations on that. I mean, I'm not surprised, you know, the way you explain things and your temperament. And, you know, the education and all of this is is what people need, you know, to succeed what people need to succeed. So, I do like to ask this second, the last question of all guests, what one question Did you wish I'd asked? And what is your answer? That's,

Lisa Franz: 57:19

I actually had, think about that for a little while. Um, I guess, yeah, you will have actually already asked that a little bit. But nonetheless, I do want to highlighted maybe what my own personal struggles are. And I don't think I brought that across as well, because I was kind of talking like, I came from my high horse there.

Philip Pape: 57:39

But no, not at all. I jumped you right into the topics, you know, it's okay. Tell me about your personal struggles out, that would be good context.

Lisa Franz: 57:47

I do struggle with being present in the moment. I, I love planning. And I, I love the feeling of control. So planning gives me a sense of control. And because of that, I also get a lot of joy and excitement out of planning future travels, planning, what the rest of the year looks like planning where I want my business to go. And then sometimes it's like, almost like I go through my to do in my checklist. And I feel really satisfied at the end of the day, because I did it. But then I was like, how many times throughout the day? Did I actually just like really 100% Be present with what I was doing at that time. And so, yeah, even I mean, I was speaking to someone about that yesterday, like now, when we're at the grocery store, you know, we feel like we can answer a few more texts or emails or whatever. And I it does take me conscious effort. In those moments to restrain myself from doing that or another, you know, numerous situations throughout the day. I'm just like, just just stand here just like, just be don't just plan don't try to control everything. Just just be and that yeah, that is I think, day to day struggle for sure.

Philip Pape: 59:03

Well, you're my doppelganger, Lisa, because that's you speak everything to me. And so how do you do it? Because I want to know the answer, like, what have you been working on? Or is there a secret? Or is there one thing that's, you know, the special sauce to doing?

Lisa Franz: 59:15

Well, I wish there was I wish there was I mean, I do think that I meditate every evening to like Roundup my day and I go for daily walks and on both of those. They helped me a be present more in the moment and be moving more and more away from like, having that feeling of every time when I go for a walk, listening to a podcast. No, maybe today is the day where you can just go out without anything. Just leave your phone here because then you're tempted to discover it every time. And same with meditation doesn't always have to be like a guided meditation, whatever, just just be. And those things can offer themselves our practice as well but they carry over into like every minute of the day. So yeah,

Philip Pape: 59:59

this is So good. I always love specifics, right? Because that's everything we do when it comes to coaching is like, somebody wants to know how you do this, right? People who have been struggling, just don't know what to do. Same thing with you and me when it comes to being present. And always being typing and wanting to plan everything that you just said, to leave your phone behind, or like right there that resume with me, like, I need to do that. Because you're right, you just listened to the podcast, you're checking, whatever, you know, messages, or how's the podcast doing or

Lisa Franz: 1:00:30

even just like that education piece for me, like it's a feeling of being productive. And of course, that feels good to me, like I'm doing something. And there's nothing wrong with that. On the contrary, other people wouldn't be listening to us right now. But it's also again, just learning to sit with that stillness, that uncomfortable and it is uncomfortable, like sometimes even just leaving that from behind, like, sense of anxiety, right? And like, no, whenever I do, do, do leave my phone behind the first, probably 10 minutes, I'm bored out of my mind, I'm like, Oh, I would have taken my phone. After while actually, the creativity starts going, something like my mind just starts drifting, I start noticing a bird there. It comes over time, but we need to like allow that consciously.

Philip Pape: 1:01:17

I totally agree with that. Because when I've done that, and gone on walks, it's like, sometimes I end up starting, I speak out loud, you know, nobody's I just started talking and talking through ideas, or I might practice like, and maybe that even is trying to do something because again, your body wants to do something. But still, this goes back to your conversation about balance and the things that are maybe down at the minimum, and now you're trying to push them up. And so that's where we need to challenge ourselves. All right. So with that, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? Lisa?

Lisa Franz: 1:01:46

I'm most active on Instagram. It's at nutrition, coaching and life. And that's also the name of the website, nutrition coaching and life.com. And as you said, the podcast is nutrition and life. And yeah, but the most, I'm probably most active on Instagram.

Philip Pape: 1:02:05

All right, definitely. Because you're listening to a podcast right now. Go into your app and find nutrition and life and just follow it super easy one tap, do it, and you will not regret it. Thank you so much, Lisa. I'm gonna add all that to the show notes. Of course, this was a lot of fun. This was very enlightening. I learned a lot I know the listener did too. And I want to thank you for coming on the show.

Lisa Franz: 1:02:25

It's been a true pleasure. Thank you.

Philip Pape: 1:02:29

If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best