Sherry Shaban: 0:00

Really the key is to tune into what works for you. If something doesn't feel right if you're forcing yourself like you said self when you're forcing yourself through diet and exercise and you're really going against your desire, that's where we can start to create all of these self sabotaging patterns in the brain where we start to do self sabotaging behavior. And so what we need to just release is this idea that there's this one way to eat because what works for you Phillip may not work for me and what works for me may not work for you. And the goal is to really just find what works the best for each person, individual and just follow that.

Philip Pape: 0:35

Welcome to the Wits& Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits& Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. Joining me today is Sherry Cheban, an extraordinary fitness and life coach who's battled back from the brink of paralysis to transform not only her body, but her entire outlook on life. She and I met when she recently had me on her podcast fall in love with fitness. So I'm very excited to talk to her again. Today, Sherry will challenge your conventional wisdom on dieting and fitness as we look at why diets fail and what you can do differently. We're unpacking the nuances of transformation versus results, how you can move from a life of limitations to one of endless possibilities. From the role of intuitive eating to overcoming chronic pain to the habits that define successful athletes in all walks of life. This is a holistic conversation about optimizing your performance from the inside out. Sherry Cheban is an osteopath and an anti diet health and life coach from Montreal, Quebec. She's the founder of the fall in love with fitness podcast, her new hit decks app which is out now and make peace with food. The leaders in an anti diet approach that rewires the brain's relationship with food to naturally release body weight struggles forever. With over 23 years of experience in the fitness industry. Sherry is a renowned expert in the most challenging weight loss cases and has helped 1000s of people worldwide transform their health and fitness using her revolutionary method to rewire the brain release self sabotaging limiting beliefs and patterns and fall in love with fitness so that weight loss becomes easy, predictable and enjoyable. For the first few years of being a gym owner, Sherry felt like a phony she was frustrated with herself disappointed and angry for being a victim of her circumstances, unable to demonstrate a single squat. But her turning point toward recovery came from understanding that one of the central elements to transformation is to let go of debilitating and self limiting thoughts and to begin to rewrite a new story. With over 20 years of experience in her specialty. Sherry has dedicated her life to helping 1000s of people transform their athletic identity to become who they are meant to be. Sherry, it is so good to see you again.

Sherry Shaban: 3:09

Thank you so much, Philip, what a beautiful intro. I don't even know how to follow that.

Philip Pape: 3:14

Oh, you'll have no problem following and sharing your you're a pro. And I know that listeners have been looking forward to learning about this, especially the whole anti diet discussion that we're going to get into. But let's just learn about you a little bit. You've battled these life altering setbacks, the near paralyzing accident, and then you turn them into stepping stones for something greater. So how have these adversities sharpened Your mindset is really what I care about how much to sharpen your mindset, not just for fitness, but life as a whole.

Sherry Shaban: 3:44

So good, so good. So really how we do anything is how we do everything. And I also have to say that when we look back at a story like mine, or any story of anyone who is quote, unquote, successful, whatever that means, it always looks like it was so easy. And it came so naturally. And there were no struggles and the roads opened up and the sun was shining and all of these things. But really, what we don't see is the pain. What we don't see is the self deprecating thoughts. We don't see the disappointment. We don't see the embarrassments. We don't really see the struggle. And so the first thing that I want to say is that it's a process, and it's a journey, and I still have my days. And what's fun about that is knowing that I'm always a work in progress. Because I mean, if we reach that final, complete, perfect image of ourselves, what's the point of continuing to work on ourselves. And so it's this constant work in progress. But really, again, it's it's really understanding that the way that we are in one part of our life is how we actually show up in all the other areas of our life. And the first thing that happened when I finally embraced my story, and I decided that I'm no longer a victim, because my thoughts Phillip was always around. Well, if that didn't happen, then this would have happened. If it wasn't for that, then I would have that and it's this constant feeling of lack of scarcity around what is possible. But the more meant that we actually look back at these hard challenging moments of our lives. And instead of thinking, well that happen to me, we start thinking this happened. For me, there was a higher purpose of that there was a reason why this happened. All of a sudden, everything started to make sense. And everything started to align. And essentially, what it did for me on a personal level was making me realize that I can do anything that I can accomplish anything. And so I've had the financial struggles. But because I was able to overcome this part of my life, I had the faith knowing that I could overcome financial struggles. I've had relationship struggles, but again, you overcome this part of your life, and you realize you can overcome anything. And in 2019, I lost my mom, which was the most devastating experience of my life, way worse than everything that happened on my back, because I knew I'd overcome just tragic thing in my teens, that I was actually able to also overcome that. And so you realize that just gives you strength and power. So that was on a personal level. But on a professional level, I just became relatable to people, because we all have a struggle, right. And I think even you, Phillip, as a coach, everyone looks up to you everyone admires you, everybody's always coming to you for advice, and you're kind of the know it all, or the person that really inspires others to create momentum. And so when people start to hear that, you've also gone through your struggles, and you have the story, you automatically become relatable. And when you become relatable, you can connect with the person, you can reach them, and then you can also help guide them through their own story.

Philip Pape: 6:27

It's so true, that is relatable and even the idea of having humility, and coming to the realization of with wisdom of time, right? Because I know I don't know about you in my 20s. If I wasn't known at all, that's the only side of me, I would let you see right. Now you know that it's like, let's get vulnerable, because people really relate to that. And like you said, we don't always see the struggle. But how we do like what you said, how we do anything, is how we do everything. So think about that. This is this is awesome. So one of your specialties, one of your superpowers, now that you've gone through all this is the idea of redefining our identity, which is kind of what you were talking about. And specifically thinking of yourself as an athlete in the physical fitness realm, which I love, I hear more of that kind of messaging in the space, you probably do as well. And I think we should definitely embrace it. You call everyone an athlete? So I want you to break that down for us? What is the shift the psychological advantage, if you will, that happens when someone starts to have that identity.

Sherry Shaban: 7:25

So get, I think, first we have to address just the most powerful force of the human psyche, before we even get into that, because the most powerful force that we have is how we define ourselves our self image essentially. And so what happens is when we decide who we are, through our self talk through our language through the image that we have of ourselves, what we start to subconsciously or unconsciously do is just prove that to be correct, we try to validate that all day long. So if in my mind, I wake up in the morning, and my first thoughts are a girl, so I'm so fat, I'm disgusting, I hate myself, I'm so slow, like, what is this all What a shitty day it's going to be or what I'm so exhausted. And then these are all the words that are coming to me, well, then throughout the rest of the day, I'm going to support that my actions will support that unknowingly. And so when we come down to that concept, and then we take the athletic identity and start to apply it, first, we want to understand what is the athletic identity. And so we have again, this image that an athlete is a person who's paid millions of dollars a year to be on TV and to play their sport at a very, very high level. But that's not really what it is. Because when we dive deep into what that really means, we understand that an athlete is actually a mindset. And a mindset is just a collection of beliefs. That's really what it is. And so an athlete doesn't show up to practice or doesn't commit to their sport, because they're so focused on how much they weigh. Unless, of course, they're trying to classify in a particular weight category, then that's another conversation. But the reason what that they don't show up has has, it has nothing to do with their physical body. It has everything though, to do with their performance. And so they show up to their practices, or they honor their values and their rituals, not because they need to release weight or because they want to change their physical appearance. But instead, it's it's because of what they're able to do with their bodies. And so that starts to shift why we show up because if exercise is a means to release weight, it's a punishment, if exercise is, is a means to change my physical body because I don't like how I look, then it's always a punishment for what I think of myself. And so when we step into the athletic mindset, we no longer are focused around exercise just for the burning of calories or what my weight will be at the end of the month. And the same thing applies for nutrition nutrition will no longer be focused on restrictions and caloric deficit just because I want to look a certain way but instead, the focus will be how can I feel my workouts better? How can I recover faster? How can I optimize my sleep? How can I continue to show up, I'm going to decide to turn down social events the night before the game. And it's going to be easy for me to do that, because I am committed to my values, it doesn't feel restrictive. And so when we embrace that athletic identity, it's no longer a restriction. It's no longer I can't do these things. It's more I don't do these things, because it's not who I am. And what I want to create in my life is so incredibly important to me. So purposeful, and so meaningful, that there is no other way. I don't commit to these things. Because I'm trying to do these things. I commit to these things, because I'm being these things, it's actually who I am.

Philip Pape: 10:38

Because I'm being these things, I love that there's a sense of empowerment and relief, almost, there's a, you're getting rid of cognitive dissonance, right, because so many of us, myself included, went through years of forcing ourselves to do things for some out calm, not realizing that a maybe it wasn't that outcome we were really going for. And P we weren't doing the things that were aligned with those and our values. So fortunately, there's more of this in the industry, but not enough. And so people like you coming on the shows and talking about this as important because I want people to realize that if they can take, Sherry's approach of abundance, right of performance of fuel of being your best, and then letting your choices because that's what they are, right? Their choices, drive that and create your identity, all these other things also become easier whether it is physique, and everything else, it doesn't matter. I love that. So do you think this label, just the label of athlete itself is is a game changer for people who've never considered sports or even physical activity as part of their life, like even from day one.

Sherry Shaban: 11:45

So that absolutely and again, coming back to what we were saying earlier about how we do anything is how we do everything. It's so incredibly important. And, you know, I've seen so many transformations happen, the moment people embrace this concept, the moment they go from, I can't do this, I'm not able to do that to suddenly feeling the sense of certainty, because that's really what it means. It's not just about the collection of all these actions that we're doing. But the moment you embrace that athletic identity, your mind starts to shift, your thoughts start to shift that that faith that you have in yourself, that confidence starts to shift. And if you've ever heard any big, famous athlete, let's say on Netflix, I think there's, there's a Conor McGregor documentary there. I think there's a Michael Jordan documentary, they're just too I can watch them over and over. But I watch them over and over. And I have this obsession, even the Arnold documentary obsession about it, because there's a pattern there, there's a pattern. And once you identify the pattern, then you realize I can apply that to myself, too. And here's the pattern, Philip, is that they don't doubt themselves. They don't say, Well, maybe today I might I think I probably could. And maybe this week, I might work out a couple times, or no, it's I am, I am going to do this. I am the best. I am relentless. And even after they fail, or even after they have a bad game. They don't give up. Right? And we can look at Olympic athletes, they trained for four years to compete for 10 seconds. And what do they train for? They train for the gold. But what happens when they get the silver or the bronze, they don't give up, they go back home and start trading for the gold again. And so that's the mindset. The mindset is just around that resilience in the faith. And we can all step into it. The moment we detach this idea, this image of an athlete being this high level competitor that is professionally playing for the their sport, because really, there's a recreational athlete. Also, there's a part time athlete also. And we all have this capacity within us to harness this energy of being the athlete.

Philip Pape: 13:43

Yeah, that's awesome. I was thinking about the Arnold thing where he's like, I envisioned myself winning Mr. Olympia, I envisioned myself as a Hollywood superstar. Like it was happening, it was going to happen, right? And they don't doubt themselves. You said resilience and faith. It's funny, because since the time you and I talked, I also, honestly, thanks to you and a few others, like Steph Gaudreau, in the industry, who's very much thinking like that have been using the term client athlete with my clients, right? So like, you know, I kind of throw it in here and there in the past, and now it's like, no, no, you guys are athletes, then you're right. It creates a different mindset completely. So you talked about it early on, like results, how the result we want isn't always the result we're really going for, for example, if it's not really physique, it's something else. And you also mentioned the word transformation. So drill down into the difference the subtle difference that makes one superior to the other that is transformation versus mere results.

Sherry Shaban: 14:35

Right. Oh, so good. So good. Yeah, results can be measured, right results can be temporary result is just this change, and transformation. I like to really look at it as a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. But there are two different things. There's the same thing. It comes from the same place but it's it just as a brand new being and so transformation is this end result that doesn't Really and although it is this end result that continues to stay in motion, where I no longer have the set of belief systems that I had in the past, I now have a different level of thinking, I have exchanged that my old emotions with a brand new level of emotions and a higher vibration emotions. And so the transformation really is this emergence of the butterfly where it thinks differently, it behaves differently, it acts differently, almost everything around it is different. And I use the word different. But really what we're doing is we're just actually becoming that highest version of ourselves, because really, you are coming home to who you're always meant to be.

Philip Pape: 15:39

So this metamorphosis because I love the caterpillar butterfly thing. I think you alluded you mentioned, it's it's a continual process, right? Like a result is an endpoint, a short term endpoint, the transformation never ends, does it? Like you said, we until the day we die, it never ends. Is that right?

Sherry Shaban: 15:54

Right. 100% under percent, and it's just like brushing our teeth, right? I don't brush my teeth, or get my teeth clean, just that one time I go to see the dentist that year, or I don't just clean my house once. But it's this this constant work. And the thing about this constant work because we have this this thing in our brain where we think that progress is supposed to be linear, or we think that work is supposed to be linear. And it's not because that constant work means that I am accepting all of the things happening in my life as I continue in this journey of transformation, which means there will be losses, there will be difficult moments, there will be injuries, there will be things that come out of nowhere that I didn't expect them to be. And can I be more flexible, can I be more adaptable with the things that happened, because that's what transformation is, if I can change my mind, which means I can change my belief systems, which means I can change the way I think and therefore all my emotions that come along with that, than the way that I can handle situations look very, very different than my old self, which was very limited maybe in the way that it thought about certain things. And the way that it reacted to certain things will be very different than how I react to things now. And so yes, transformation is this constant work in progress, the work never ends. But the beautiful part about that is there is a flow and we aligned with the flow of life, which is ebbs and flows, which is really great things happening. And then And then really painful things happening to us at the same time. And regardless of what's going on in my life, regardless of my environment, whether I live in Montreal, or I'm on the moon, or I'm traveling or people come in and out of my life, my rituals don't change. And so that's one thing when we want to ask ourselves, have I really transformed, maybe we can look deeper into ourselves and ask ourselves, Is my transformation dependent on my environment? Or is it truly from within because I think we saw this in the pandemic. And I saw this at my gym, too. I had people that would come in, I mean, really religiously for years. And they were so like, keen on their health and fitness, they did not miss a single workout. But then the pandemic happened, the gyms disappeared. And so did that tie with all of those behaviors are those rituals. And so if I'm dependent on a gym for my transformation, then is that really coming from within? Because what would happen if that gym closed down? What would happen if the trainer changed? What would happen if things in the gym change? And then I no longer can connect? What does that mean, for me? Does that mean that I still continue to honor who I am, and honor the important values in my life around my health? Or does that mean that also changes. And so that's also another way that we can look at transformation is that I'm really driven by my own desire to become that reflection of my highest self, and that has nothing to do with anyone around me. And at the same time, I can match the ebb and flow of life.

Philip Pape: 18:39

Yeah, what I hear you're saying is, we really don't have an excuse to be a victim, because that's what you alluded to before. Because the exception to the rule is when things are routine and perfect. It's rare, right? People expect, okay, I have a plan. And I'm just gonna do that plan every day. Day two, something happens day three, something happens. And you're so off the so called track, right? Like people use the track or the wagon, which doesn't exist, which doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. It's an ISA, like it's as Broad Avenue that you're just meandering through life, or so think of Bruce Lee's you know, water analogy. He said, I don't know exactly how it goes. But he's like, be like water where you just kind of shape yourself around everything, but you keep moving forward. Okay, so what about then somebody might say, well, what if I am in the short term, still trying to achieve some results, right? Like, like an athlete will try to win games or, you know, trying to get a new maximum on their squat or whatever? Maybe it is fat loss. I don't I don't care a result. How can you align that or fit that within the idea of transformation?

Sherry Shaban: 19:43

Yeah, transformation will be the sum of all results where the results could even maybe be going in the opposite direction, right. And so that's also the other thing, I could be training so hard for something I'm training for this race day, and all of a sudden race day comes and I didn't even come close to peering, but that's still a result and so If we're so focused on a result, or focused on a positive outcome where success is attached to that positive outcome, or joy is attached to that positive outcome, that's when we have a problem. Because then our emotions are going to yo yo and roller coaster along with that outcome. And so I've had horrible results before, right. But that doesn't drive me away from my transformation, because it's kind of like looking at all the small battles in a war. There are many small battles, you win some, you lose some, but ultimately, there's still this ongoing nature around it. And so the moment that we can embrace that and understand why it's a bad training day, that's cool. That's fine. Or I was expected this today, but it didn't happen. That's okay, that I still have faith. And that's the thing is, when we harness the energy of transformation, and we're not just focusing on results, what we're also doing is harnessing patience, and harnessing faith, and integrity. And so I can become patient when things don't go my way. If I'm doing all the things if I'm eating in a way that serves me, and I am training, and I'm following my entire program, and maybe the results don't reflect that. If I can harness that energy of patience, then I know that it's only a matter of time, where things will finally align in the way that I hope and expect them to

Philip Pape: 21:14

know that that's a beautiful image there. Sure. I like how you said that. Because there are a lot of people are not lazy, right? They're working hard. Yeah. And they are taking action. And somehow it's not getting them where they want to be. But they are if like they're working with you. And they're they're understanding the psychology of their identity and trying to shape their identity. You kind of take that in stride and learn from that. I mean, you just triggered me with multiple times in my life where I just completely failed. Like last year, I did a speech contest, and I blanked out for like minutes. And it was horrible in the moment, but afterward, I'm like, Wow, I'm glad I went through that. Because do you know how much I'm gonna be able to change? Or I just had surgery since the last time we talked? And it's like, yeah, I gotta find a way to train right Wednesday's training day. I don't care. It's training. But I'm sure people can definitely relate to what you're saying. So let's talk about the D word. Yeah, okay. Let's talk about the D word. Because I think that will fit nicely into the context of all of this, because, at least for me, when I think dieting, I think several different things. So let me just tell you what I think are the top, I think multiple definitions. One, I think a calorie deficit, right. Another is, I think, restricting foods or trying to follow rules for a diet. Another thing I think of is maybe how we eat a dietary pattern. And another is trying to get a result like right, trying to lose fat weight, whatever. Or the other way even build muscle. So define what you mean by dieting. So we're on the same page. And then let's talk about why dieting in that context fails. And what's more effective.

Sherry Shaban: 22:45

So good, you've really great questions. So I like what you said, Because kind of everything that you said was true. Okay, so I'm actually so behind everything that you said. And so when when we're looking at our goals, first and foremost, there's nothing wrong with wanting to release weight, there's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with wanting to change your physical body, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be the highest version of yourself or become stronger or have more endurance. So all of those things are amazing. And now when we look at that, and then we ask ourselves, okay, well, then what's wrong with dieting? Well, here's the thing kind of coming back to where we were talking about when it comes to mindset. It's very different Celebified come into a party and you say, hey, Sherry, do you want to drink? Do you want to drink? And I say to you know, Phillip, sorry, I can't, I can't I can't have a drink. Versus No, Philip. Sorry, I don't drink. Now, it almost sounds the same, because in both ways, I'm declining your offer. But when I say I can't do something, what I'm actually implying is that there is a desire, and what I'm doing is going against that natural desire. But when I say I don't do something that now reflects who I am, that's part of my personality. And it's true. I don't drink so I don't have a hard time turning down alcohol because I don't drink. And I don't know if you know what poutine is, but I'm from Montreal and poutine if anyone's listening and doesn't know what it is, it is this thing. This this dish of of French fries, I think swimming and gravy with like, kurtal cheese on top. I've never had it in my life, and I never will. And it's not because and people. I'm gonna I'm gonna call up your house and force. Everybody you know. And the reason why I haven't I've never tried it was not because I was restricting or dieting, but because nothing about it appealed to me. And so the word diet that is negative that where it is talking about a restriction, that's the one that can become harmful if we don't readjust the mindset around it because what happens in the brain when we deny ourselves so something against that desire when we prevent ourselves from happening, having it what we end up doing is actually building this reward system with the hormone dopamine. And so when I want chocolate cake, but I'm on a diet, and I can't have chocolate cake, and all I think about is a chocolate cake, because that's true, by the way, Philip, I love chocolate cake, that would be a restriction for me. And so what ends up happening is it builds this reward system in my brain. So then the moment that I have chocolate cake, I get this insane flush of dopamine. And now my desire for chocolate cake has increased tenfold. And now I want that chocolate cake even more than I ever did. And that's where we can start to see patterns of binge eating, and out of control eating, which is not uncommon around athletes, or fitness competitors or people in the bodybuilding world, because that's exactly what happens. So what's different than around wiring and rewiring the brain is to have that thing not even be a part of something that you desire. So if I don't even desire it, then I'm not restricting. And so the danger of restriction then comes from this reward system that is built up. And now the other thing about dieting, too, is that there are a million diets out there. And we just have to ask ourselves, well, why is it that we live in North America, where food is abundant, where science and information is abundant? Where diets are abundant? And yet we are the one struggling with weight and health the most? Like why is that? Yes, absolutely. We have fast food and we have processed foods and we have all this other stuff. But is that really the issue? Or is the issue that we're so focused on weight and on body image, and told from a very, very young age that we should look a certain way. And that's generally the people that I work with. And actually they started dieting, something like when they were eight, nine, even 12 years old, already started dieting. And when you get in from get into one diet, and then move on to the next, what you actually start doing is becoming very confused around food because this diet says that we shouldn't have carbs, this diet says that we should have carbs This one says we shouldn't have meat, this one says we should have meat. This one says eat breakfast. First thing you do when you wake up, this one says don't eat and you should fast. And by the way, all backed by science all legitimate. There's there's enough scientific data to prove that each and every single one is correct. And so what we've done is create these restrictions for these massive reward systems in our brain and at the same time confused ourselves like crazy around what information is correct that we no longer intuitively recognize the cues that our body's constantly giving us to be hungry, or when we're satisfied, and we're full or when we're missing something. But now everything is thought processes first, before we take action, I have to think about what I want to eat, does it fit in my macros that I eat enough calories? Or should I get more protein, there's more thought involved versus intuitive. Calling upon the signal that's already actually telling me what it is that my body needs

Philip Pape: 27:47

at the moment. It's very interesting, because you and I agree on 99.99% of stuff. We really do. And just I love the way that you explain that in the context of the reward system and the binge eating. And the fact that there is science, I'll say cherry picked to support this or it's incomplete, if you will, right. Because the psychological aspect you're talking about, I'm sure there's science on that, as in fact, I know there is I know they've studied rigid dieting versus more flexible dieting, for example. And it comes down to adherence, often, more often than not, and that is also science. So the question is what you know, what do you believe? Right? That's the crux of what you're getting to is that people are either misinformed or just overwhelmed with the information. So what is the biggest of those myths about dieting that you wish would just finally fall on its face and go away? Because there's so many?

Sherry Shaban: 28:42

Yeah, I think it's probably that there is one way we're supposed to eat. And I think that's the issue really, is that we're on this journey, this lifelong journey to find the secret, what is the secret to weight loss, like, and then we see this everywhere, right? This this is like a major attention grab 10 secrets to weight loss, right? And so we're looking for this, we're looking for this magic pill. But the truth is, if you just take a couple steps back and from a third person perspective, you just ask yourself, Okay, well, how can this be logical because if I looked at the evolution of the world and the evolution of man on every single content and every single type of environment, I would see that here, these people lived off of whale blubber and meat, that makes sense. And over here, maybe people lived more off of the land and ate plants because there wasn't anything available to them. And so when you start to see that we've actually evolved eating a lot of different things, essentially eating what the land gave us, then none of these diets really make sense. There's, we don't talk about carbs anymore or fats anymore. We can also go to Italy and to Greece, where they eat a lot of carbs. And we can find many Blue Zones there. People living over 100 years old and very happy. So clearly, it's not about the potatoes either. But really the key is to tune into what works for you. If something doesn't feel right if you're forcing yourself like you set up on your fortune. yourself through diet and exercise and you're really going against your desire. That's where we can start to create all of these self sabotaging patterns in the brain where we start to do self sabotaging behavior. And so what we need to just release is this idea that there's this one way to eat because what works for you Phillip may not work for me and what works for me may not work for you. And the goal is to really just find what works the best for each person, individual. And just follow that and have this become this massive science experiment. And by the way, this, this doesn't mean eat a dozen donuts for breakfast and see what happens and then go to McDonald's for lunch and see what happens. That's not what it means. Because I think if we ate doughnuts all day long for days and processed foods, our body will would rebel if it wasn't off limits for us our body be like, okay, dude, just everything else. Right?

Philip Pape: 30:50

Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking of like, just a catchy phrase, right? You know, If It Fits Your Macros, if it fits your body, right? Like, if you had to, like, just simplify it to, okay, there's not one way to eat. But if there's one way to state this, it would be if it serves you, or like if it works with you. Yeah, exactly. So, which is which is very similar to what a lot of what I say even though I do get caught in the trap of using numbers and things like with carbs, and protein targets and stuff, so maybe we could explore some of that

Unknown: 31:20

out to Philippe and hopefully for a long time, and know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and love his strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach, I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably, Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. Now I have a more balanced diet, I weight train consistently, or most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape: 32:05

I want to talk more about intuitive eating, which I guess I guess it does run counter to the typical diet culture, right? Even though people heard the term, define intuitive eating and be and I asked this because there's the in my opinion, the example you just gave about eating as much donuts or McDonald's as you want. In version of intuitive eating. Yes, I've seen that. Right. Which is like, just listen to your body. But without any training or education or any any feedback or experimentation. And therefore you're not, you can't really trust what your body's telling you necessarily. Versus you've got to somehow go through a process to kind of get out of the typical and get into this more transformative mindset. So tell us about because I want to know, like, if I wanted to become an intuitive eater, right away, what were the steps look like?

Sherry Shaban: 32:50

So good. I think you said something so so important, because you said how do I go from eating all of these things, and then just suddenly listening to my body? Right. So that's actually step number one. And there is a place for tracking, by the way. So I want to also add in here that I'm not anti tracking, because it always has its place, especially when we're trying to understand what we don't know. Like, we don't know what we don't know, Philip. So if I've been, you know, I've been raised in this environment where, you know, my mom fed me box foods, she did her best, let's say she fed me box foods her whole life. And we had microwave dinners, and she was working three jobs. And she was a single mom, and she just really really did her best. By the time I become a teenager or maybe a young adult, I don't really know enough about nutrition because I've just haven't been exposed to it. So for step number one is just just to learn the basics and not to get so caught up in the minutia, or the details of every little thing and feel that we're doing things good or bad, or I'm doing it right or wrong. And so that's where we start again, that's that slippery path where we start to develop that self sabotaging behavior. So first things first is just to get comfortable with the information, it may actually be new information for some people to learn that juice is not really serving us or there's so much sugar and juice compared to eating the fruit straight up. Or maybe all of those health products that are claiming to be health products and marketed to us as health products are actually not that healthy for us. And they don't actually differ very much from chocolate bars.

Philip Pape: 34:17

Let me there. So let's take the juice example. Let's say let's say pure fresh squeezed orange juice versus an orange, right? How do you communicate that and explain it to a client or somebody educationally? Do you? Do you make it more of an objective comparison? Or do you put a little bit of judgment on it kind of I heard that a little bit in there of because it has so much sugar in it has so this it's not so great for you. And even the word great is a little bit of a label and I'm just call it calling you out on your own thing because I know you're aware of that. How do you do that? How do you communicate that?

Sherry Shaban: 34:46

So it's really understanding the basics of what the body actually needs. And what we can do is we can maybe rewind 100 or 150 years to really see how we ate and so we don't know what the body needs eats any more, because the majority of the food that is available to us is actually food like substances not really food. It's like the kind of kind of a version of food but really didn't come from a tree

Philip Pape: 35:10

pre digested. Together. Yeah,

Sherry Shaban: 35:13

absolutely. And so it kind of has to start, there's just this basic understanding of how the body works, the hormones in the body, what the body needs to build itself. And then from there, you can start to reverse engineer as to what the food would look like.

Philip Pape: 35:25

Okay, go ahead. No, no, okay. No, no, that's perfect. I love that of like, understanding. Okay, well, Orange has fiber, and fiber helps with this. And this, this physiological, and maybe that's why we want to eat an orange rather than drinking orange.

Sherry Shaban: 35:37

Right, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then, and then from there, we can start to get into the intuitive signaling because my body can't intuitively signal for certain things, when the majority of what I'm eating is not real food, all of that all those chemicals interfere with the signals. So of course, like I bypass my hunger signals, or my fullness signals. And so there's, there's this level of first just understanding Well, what is what is the food that fuels us the best? What is the food that serves us the best, it's not saying it's good or bad, because maybe a piece of cake can serve you too. But what is the food that serves as the best and what is the food that we are actually meant to eat? And now that's kind of coming back to diets. And what kind of brings all diets together is most of the time most diets focus on eating real foods. Maybe this side will tell you reduce the amount of fats here or take out the fast completely while this diet tells you takeout carbs. But what they both are kind of saying that sounds similar is eat from the land, eat food that is actually real that comes from nature. And so if we start there, we can then start to become more in tune with the natural signals of the body, and not the signals coming from the other chemicals or the other unnatural substances that we're putting in our body.

Philip Pape: 36:54

Let me ask you this, because you mentioned chocolate cake earlier. Yeah. How does? How do you put that in the context? And I'm getting kind of nitpicky just because I know Yeah, please do this. You've got this element. Yeah. You're, you know, at a birthday party, your grandma made the chocolate cake. She used a cake mix and some sort of oil, you don't know what it is. And you said you love chocolate cake. And I do too. I love chocolate, everything. It may not be optimal for your physiology. Right? Perhaps I don't tell good based on everything. You just said how would you I don't want to say justify it, because it's really just your choice. But for a potential client who's like struggling, okay, well, what do I do here? What I do here? What do you mean? Like, can I never enjoy this stuff? How would you answer that?

Sherry Shaban: 37:36

Ah, so good. Yeah, have the damn cake. Right. It's about having the cake because you restricting yourself from having the cake is actually a greater problem and more harmful to your body than actually having the cake. That's if you desire to have the cake. Now I could have come to that party and I saw the cake and like actually don't want to have a piece. That's not a restriction. But if I wanted a piece, and I'm watching everybody else have a piece and I really wish I could have a piece but I can't have a piece because, well, all these things in the sky, and I'm off sugar, and I'm off carbs. And that's very different. Because what ends up happening now is I'm building up that reward system. And so the other thing too, is about quantity, right? So there's a very big difference between having a whole cake or six pieces of cake versus having a piece of cake. And we need to get to that place because I actually like to see my body as this temple, where if I give it sugar, it can handle it. Now, that doesn't mean I need to use it and give it more sugar than it possibly needs in one day or even in one city. Again, that becomes the harm. And that's where we start to see this ease.

Philip Pape: 38:43

Yeah, yeah, I love that. What was I going to ask? I got so into what you're saying that I was gonna ask something about that relate to the quantity, the quantity Yeah, it's so true. Because when you do your step two of developing intuitive signaling, right with your satiety signals that and you start to I guess, desensitize yourself to the the overly flavored processed foods we have you'll find that like you don't want that big of a piece of cake. It's kind of a rebel repels you would you still want to be you wouldn't be polite, there are so social implications and all that and there's also the fact that delicious to some extent, but you know, if you have this bigger piece of cake, it's not gonna feel so great the next day, so I love that level of balance. And then so we talked about signaling and hunger. How do you differentiate how does someone learn to differentiate where hunger is real physical hunger versus emotional hunger for example?

Sherry Shaban: 39:36

Ah, so good so good. All right. So let's let's go through emotional hunger first, because this is a really important one and it's interesting football say that the when I when I was sharing in the beginning that I really help people overcome emotional eating or binge eating. What I've actually noticed is that those who've been struggling with their health or their weight the longest, it wasn't because they Have a discipline problem. It's not because they didn't have the best meal plan, it wasn't because they found they didn't find the right diet, it was none of those things, in fact, that had nothing to do with food, but had everything to do with the inability to sit in an emotion with not having the tools to be able to manage an uncomfortable emotion when it comes up. And so the way that it looks like when we emotionally eat or when we binge eat or boredom, ie boredom, also being another emotion that we're uncomfortable sitting in, what that looks like, generally is it starts with a trigger. So the trigger is something that is provoked by one of the senses. So either I saw something that triggered me or I heard something, or I smelled something, or I tasted something, or I remembered something, and even the memory of something is generated by one of our five senses. And so there's a trigger. And now the trigger gave me this emotion. So I have this uncomfortable emotion. And I don't know what to do with it. So maybe it was the end of the week. And I had a really, really long week. And then on Friday night, in the afternoon, as I was checking out of work, my boss came up to me and told me how disappointed he was in my performance all week. And I really bombed that meeting, and I need to prepare better. So now, I come home Friday night, that was my trigger. Now I'm feeling like, Man, I'm such a loser. Like, I tried my best this week. And I it's never enough, no matter what I do is not enough. I'm gonna get fired. And now I've got this uncomfortable emotion. I don't know how to sit in it. And so what I want to do is numb it. I self medicate. And one of the things that we use for self medication is food. Sometimes we can use drugs, sometimes we can use alcohol, sometimes we can shop sometimes we can gamble, sometimes we can turn to sex, it's all the same. It's a dopamine hit. And so it gives me a temporary relief. And then after that temporary relief, all of a sudden, I start to feel guilty, I start to feel ashamed, I start I start to feel disappointed in myself, because I said this week, I was going to work really hard with my trainer. And I was not going to eat any sugar. But here I am, I'm having sugar. And now that I'm already here, well, I may as well just finish the whole box of Oreos since I've already finished one row. And I'm going to start my diet again on Monday. And so that's an example of a cycle. And so emotional hunger can be identified when there's a trigger that made us feel a certain way. And now, of course, I'm saying all these things that I'm giving you step by step flow, however, what's really happening is on the subconscious level, so I'm actually not aware of this. But in order for us to become aware, we just have to first know that this is happening. So how do I do that? Well, I'm about to eat something. And maybe before I start eating, I can ask myself, why do I want to eat this? And it could be then a very simple answer, like, Man, I'm bored. I'm nothing else to do. Or I'm really excited, I'm celebrating or I'm really sad. And so we just come back to that emotion. And then again, reverse engineer, well, what triggered that emotion? Why did I feel that way? Someone say something like what happened that made me feel this way. Right. And then we understand that the reason why we're eating is emotional. And so when a person has an emotional eating pattern, there, they are aware of it, because they noticed that no matter what the circumstance is whether that the circumstance, give them a positive emotion or negative emotion, what they start to recognize is this inability to handle stressful situations in their environment or in their lives without resorting to food. And oftentimes, it's also attached to another substance, it could be marijuana, it could also be alcohol.

Philip Pape: 43:36

It's really important, I think, like you said, to create awareness, really around everything. So I love that idea. And I'm sure again, this is where methods versus principles, there's probably many ways to create that awareness, like you said, Ask yourself, maybe a diary, all sorts of ways to do that. But I also want to point out to the listener, that what you mentioned very early in the podcast about having the identity of an athlete, I think, personally, that also changes this because as you start to find positive ways to channel the reason you eat, it kind of crowds out or takes away from the desire need to eat emotionally, I've seen that, you know, it's like these physical changes where you don't necessarily have to go to a psychiatrist and diagnose this, you can do some practical things and get there. That's just what I've seen. I do I know, we only have like, 10 more minutes. So and I have like a bunch of questions that I'm not going to get through as usual. I want to jump to the aesthetics and the physique part, because the listener might be thinking, you know, are there mixed signals or not? And I know there aren't, but I want to, like address that with you. So the first question is the million dollar question is how do you have a six pack and defy these traditional norms of dieting and excessive exercise that everybody thinks they need to do?

Sherry Shaban: 44:47

Alright, so yes, so so it's so interesting. I'm actually really happy that you brought that up because there's this fine balance that we want to have between the two concepts, right, because to your point, you can go on Instagram by the way if you hashtag into it. Eating on Instagram, please don't listen to what's being said like really go to to a resource such as a book, or a person who's really like a psychologist or a nutritionist who's who's doing this work, because there's a lot of these videos that people intuitive eating donuts and intuitively eating their pizza. And that's one intuitively eating that is actually promoting you to eat foods that don't serve you. So to answer your question, Philip, yes, I'm I'm resting 16 17% body fat. This is this is without adding effort. I don't eat certain foods. And I don't, it's not because it's a restriction kind of what we said in the beginning, it was more around aligning my values. And so the first things first is really identifying what it is that you want to create in your life. That is the number one thing what is it that I want to create? What is that vision of my life? Because if I ask somebody that question, and it's actually the first question, I ask anyone who starts to work with me, I asked him, What is it that you want? Like, what are your goals, now that they do fill up, they list all the things they don't want, they talk about all the things they don't want to do. And actually, most people are not very clear as to what it is that they want. And so the first thing is getting crystal clear around what it is that you want that you want, not what other people expect you to want, but what it is that you want. So that starts there. And then if let's say my goal is, let's say my goal is to release 30 pounds, if that is my goal, instead of focusing on the doing, which now gets into the diet mindset, because if you tell me Sherry, okay, your goal is to lose 30 pounds will fill up, I'm going to do anything, anything it'll take, I can even chop up a limb to make that happen, because that's my goal is to lose 30 pounds. So instead of focusing on the doing, what do I have to do to release my 30 pounds, instead, we come back to the being, who do I have to be to be that person who's 30 pounds lighter. And now that starts to look a lot different, because now I can find a set of values, I can find the personality type of this person, I can find a list of habits that they do in their day. And now what that starts to look like is something that is measurable and something that I can start to incorporate in my day to day life, I can actually schedule that stuff in. So if I had no idea what it would be like if to be a person who's 30 pounds lighter, I would maybe find a mentor, I would find somebody and I would model them. What are they doing? What time are they waking up? What are they having for breakfast? What are they eating? Where are they drinking? How much movement are they doing? How are they thinking, how are they behaving, and look at their diet. And in this sense of the word diet is not just what they're consuming through their mouth, which is beverage and food. But it's also who they're talking to. It's the conversations that they're listening to. It is the news that they're watching on social media, that is all diet. And so once I have the set of values and the set of habits, I can then start to schedule them in. And so when you asked me well, how do you have a six pack, but you're also anti diet, I'm so focused on me the being, which is I love to train, I train maybe twice a day one is usually outside. So it looks like the 75 hard but apparently I've been 75 Harding for like the longest time. And that workout outside sometimes can be a look with my dogs. Sometimes it can be a run, sometimes I could cycle and then I'll do some sort of resistance training. And why do I do resistance training? Well, I do resistance training because there was a time in my life where I relied on other people to bring me to the bathroom or to shower me. But I do resistance training. Because it's so important. For me, it's one of my core values, that I'm able to do everything for myself and be completely independent up until my very final days. And so now, as I'm focusing on all these values that are important to me, which is eating the foods that served me because if I eat sugar, I feel my back. If I eat processed foods, I feel my back. So I'm focusing on foods that make me feel good. I'm focusing on Exercise and Movement that makes me feel good. And as a side effect that the body follows. Because really, the body, our physical body is an outward reflection of our internal environment, whatever is going on inside mind, body, spirit, whatever is going on inside. That is what the body will reflect.

Philip Pape: 49:04

Yeah, I couldn't agree more when when you see people align more with their body and their values and what you said, your your diet, and that's why the word is so confusing because it can be used in five different ways. Right? But you kind of your lifestyle is what you're alluding to, and you're being then sometimes these things naturally happen. What I do wonder is somebody who let's say, gets into that situation where they're dialing everything in there. They're serving themselves and being an athlete. They're training like they want they're moving like they want they eat in a way that feels great. How is that? What's the difference between being at maintenance doing that versus you still have some weight to release? What's the process? You take clients through on that because there's a little bit of maybe discomfort that you need from being in a deficit to lose weight? Maybe not. I want to hear I want to hear your take on this because it's like, if you just be like that, aren't you going to more or less maintain your weight? or not because of body composition or other physiological changes going on.

Sherry Shaban: 50:04

super interesting. So I think I actually want to just dive a little bit deeper into this question. So what I think I'm understanding from you is, well, what would happen then if suddenly a person puts on weight and they and they're no longer in maintenance phases? That what you're asking?

Philip Pape: 50:20

It was a very terribly worded question. Very simply, if somebody, let's say somebody has, they feel like they, they're not the body that they want to have, you know, physically they want to, they want to look more like you, Sherry, and they, they're doing all the things that are, are great for their lifestyle, and it feels great in their training and doing all the things they're eating well. And that's good enough to sort of help them maintain their weight. But now they actually want to lose weight. So to me, again, I think more in terms of well, you have to have some sort of release of energy in your body, which is going to cause a little bit of hunger and things along the way. How do you make that happen?

Sherry Shaban: 50:55

Oh, so good. Okay. Yes. All right. So the calorie deficit. So there's, there's sort of four components that we want to look at to have a transformation and coming back to what that definition of transformation was in the beginning, which was that result that is a completely completely different embodiment? And then what we first started with, so yes, there there is this changing around the nutrition that needs to happen? Right, and the changing around the nutrition? I think we already talked about how it's important to really focus on the foods that serve us not only because we know that they serve us, but also in terms of how we feel. Now, any calorie deficit that happens for too long as you know, the body starts to backfire. And so if there's a calorie deficit, we just really need to identify what that means. Because Am I deficit in what I'm currently eating and consuming, or am I in a deficit, but it's actually how much I need to sustain my body weight, there's a very, very big difference. So if let's say right now, sitting here, I need 2000 calories to maintain my body weight. If I am eating 3000 calories of food, and I am in deficit of 1000 calories, I'm still eating enough to maintain my body weight and maintain more importantly, the energy that my body is requiring. If I go below that, that's where we start to see detrimental effects. Specifically, that's where we start to see reducing the metabolic rate. We're starting now to tap into lean body mass. And as we know, we have other effects that happen there. And so that's the number one thing is just to really understand what this calorie deficit is. Because when we say we want to release weight, what are we really trying to release? Is it numbers on the scale? Or are we trying to release body fat because then the approach is very different. So we want to get specific around that. Let's not keep saying I want to lose weight, or I want to lose 10 pounds, I could make someone lose 10 pounds of fat. Now that looks very different. And my approach will be very different. So that's the first game.

Philip Pape: 52:51

Okay. Yeah, my last episode was called fat loss versus weight loss and exactly the same thing. But yeah, what I was what I was getting more was like, once everybody's dialed in everything, and they still want to lose the fat. Do you? How do you have them go into a deficit? Do you have them listen to their body and just kind of reduced quantities? Or are they actually tracking calories, even though it's intuitive,

Sherry Shaban: 53:09

so interesting. Okay. So I talked about the nervous system being in either a protection mode or safety mode. And now this is really where all of the magic happens. Because everything that we're talking about right now, Phillip is controllable factors, which is I can control the amount of water I consume, the exercise I consume, what I eat, what I don't eat, theoretically, I can control all these things. But what I actually can't control is the effect that my body is having on that food, unless I understand what's going on on a nervous system level. So we have the central nervous system. And we have the autonomic nervous system, the central nervous system is a spinal cord and nerves, and that is responsible for active movement or voluntary movement, then we have the autonomic nervous system, which is the nervous system that governs all of the other functions of the body that are on autopilot. And now that's heart rate. That's blood pressure, that swallowing that's blinking, that's, that's the creation of hormones, and so on and so forth. And so when we are when we are naturally at rest, or when we're feeling joyful, we actually are in what we call safety mode. Safety mode is also known as rest and digest. And during that mode, the body doesn't have this tendency to or need to store extra extra fat or excess fat or excess energy. And so when we are in a space where it's just becoming so confusing as to why is it that I'm not releasing weight, I'm doing all the things I've reached this the stagnant point I can't break free from it and I'm just don't understand do I need to get into more of a calorie deficit? Well, we can actually start look at instead is where's the nervous system? Because if I'm in protection mode, which is fight or flight, my body's actually going to favor me to hold on stored energy. So I know that I'm in protection mode when I'm always under stress when I'm feeling super angry or my emotions are in You're and anxiety and fear and depression and worry and all of these emotions, the more I'm in those emotions, the more I'm in that protection mode. And now my body's not working with me, it's working against me. So all this the safe to answer your question is when a person gets that point where they're, they've stagnated, they're not seeing any more release of weight, instead of going to cut more calorie deficit as a solution. Let's see where the nervous system is up. Because if I'm living in a space where I'm constantly stressed, and I'm constantly in fight or flight, then I'm constantly also favoring stored energy. But if I'm, if I'm able to get my body into safety mode, where it's relaxed, where it doesn't feel that there's a danger, or a direct threat of scarcity in the environment, my body doesn't have that need to hold on to stored energy. And so we work with the nervous system in order to shift it into a place where it can actually naturally release that way.

Philip Pape: 55:51

You know, it's beautiful that we use different language for the same thing, Sherry, I love that like it totally, it's amazing. I'm glad we have this conversation today. Because it's, it's taught me a lot to about where, where you're coming from, and kind of the intuitive eating perspective, but the idea of releasing, of stress on the body with the nervous system, I almost think of it as the opposite of that, or not the opposite. But the other side of the same thing is, you're increasing your expenditure by reducing stress on the body. So therefore, you're able to be in a bigger deficit than you thought you would be at kind of a natural setpoint with all your other activities. Yeah, I was, I was just curious, I was trying to get it like, okay, the very first time somebody wants to release weight, do you put them in a deficit? But I think what you're saying is, by aligning everything to your needs, the body's going to kind of shift toward accept point anyway, you're kind of going to naturally be in a deficit until you're getting to your normal kind of setpoint of body fat. So beautiful. Yeah, that have I have that right. I didn't like Miss.

Sherry Shaban: 56:48

No, it's, it's spot on. And it's so interesting, because you and I were doing the same work. And we're approaching it very differently. And I think what's so beautiful about that, as it resonates with different people, and so a person who comes let's say, to see me, I will put them on a calorie deficit or even have them know it's on a calorie deficit, we start with what is the highest version of yourself? What are the values tell me what the driving emotions are of that person, tell me what their habits are. And tell me what that what their character is like. And once we know what that is, we can then extract habits, those habits, now we start to stack them. So it's called habit stacking, where now we apply the rule of addition before subtraction. So I'll have them add more water before they stop drinking juice or coffee, I'll have them add more vegetables before they stop doing this. And actually, what they end up doing is changing all of their nutrition, but they don't they don't track it. They don't say I'm on a calorie deficit or watching my carbs. They just end up being that person through all of the small little actions that through applying all the small habits, they transform into that butterfly without it being this okay, checklist. I did my workout today, I did this today. Instead, what we do slowly start to add on those habits. And now it's irreversible. And now you're a brand new person, and it's impossible to ever go back. Wonderful.

Philip Pape: 58:03

Yeah. And some of that full brings us full circle to to add him in the things that serve you and it sort of crowds the other stuff out and it becomes part of your life. I want to ask this question, because I asked him all guests, cherry, and that is what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what is your answer? Whoa, hmm.

Sherry Shaban: 58:26

They I think I would have loved that you asked maybe more about the importance of spirituality in this whole entire process.

Philip Pape: 58:34

Okay, tell me about that.

Sherry Shaban: 58:39

We are so caught up in the matrix. And the matrix is the three dimensional world where we are so focused on action reaction. But oftentimes we forget that we are, we are not just our body. And we're not just our mind. And we're not just our emotion, but we are the witness of all of these things. And the moment we can tap into the witness where we are witnessing the things happening in our body, and we're witnessing the emotions, we're witnessing the thoughts and not engaging them, we create this separation. And through this separation, we're then able to identify what that highest version of ourself is, and realize that everything around us that we're experiencing is just an experience. And we're not so stuck into our day to day problems, we start to understand that living and thinking the present moment means peace and stillness. And when we are fixated on thoughts in the past, or things that happened to us in the past, that brings up the emotions of sadness and loss and regret and remorse. But when we're focused also on the thoughts of the future, that's where we feel stress and anxiety and feeling like there's this uncertainty and fear ultimately. And so when we're in that place where we can operate from that consciousness from really understanding that the party is the body is something we experience and the thoughts are something we experience and the emotions are something experience. Then actually transformation becomes so easy And you realize from that place that you can actually create anything that you possibly want.

Philip Pape: 1:00:05

I can enhance that in any way that is so gorgeous. And I would love I would love to dive into that again in the future because that is so good. I, you and I think differently in certain ways, but we're also both deep and philosophical about things. So I wouldn't even have asked about spirituality and yet, I totally get it. So and I'm sure the listener does as well. So thank you so much for sharing all of this. Where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Sherry Shaban: 1:00:31

Thank you so much. You're really great Philip and I love this conversation every single second of it and I have a feeling we'll do more of these in the future either on my iPad podcast or yours, so if anybody wanted to reach out they can find me on Instagram at Sherry Shaban fitness or check out my website also Sherry shaban.com

Philip Pape: 1:00:49

Perfect I will put your IG and website in the show notes so people can find you, Sherry again, this was a pleasure. I loved it. I mean some some of these interviews just go by so fast. I wish we had another hour. We'll definitely connect again and I hope you have a beautiful weekend.

Sherry Shaban: 1:01:03

Thank you so much Philip. Be blessed.

Philip Pape: 1:01:07

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.