Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're like most of us, you've probably wondered how celebrities achieve those incredible physical transformations for a movie or TV show. You see them looking fit or sometimes totally ripped, like Chris Hemsworth prepping his Thor for the next Marvel movie, and think, what is their secret? But it's not just for the stars. In today's episode, we are chatting with one of the fittest people on the planet and the trainer behind the scenes to big celebrities like Steve Harvey and Morris Chestnut, you are going to learn practical, totally doable strategies that can help anyone celebrity or not achieve the body of their dreams, whether you're aiming for quick but controlled results or sustainable long term health, this episode will tell you exactly what it takes to get there. Welcome to wits and weights, the show that helps you engineer your best physique for maximum results with minimum wasted effort. I'm your host, Philip, and today I invited on Obi obedike, a fitness industry icon, a telly award winning TV host and a best selling author. He's written over 100 articles for top fitness magazines and websites, and his book, The cut, co authored with actor Morris Chestnut, has helped countless people transform their bodies and their lives. Obi has been featured on major national talk shows like The Today Show, and his expertise has earned him recognition as one of the most influential fitness experts today, you'll learn about OBS approach to achieving rapid and sustainable fat loss, the strategies he uses with both celebrities and everyday clients, and how you can apply these methods to your own fitness journey, plus stick around to find out, is there a perfect diet for you? Obi, welcome to the show, my man. Hey, Philip,

Obi Obadike: 1:38

thank you so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate it.

Philip Pape: 1:41

So, man, I just want to jump right in and have you imagine that moment when a celebrity client, right, who's desperate to make a change, and they have this very tight deadline before a major film or TV shoot, they walk into your gym and they look in the eye and they say, this role could change my life, but I'm nowhere ready for it, right? How do you create a training and nutrition plan under such pressure and know without a doubt that it will succeed?

Obi Obadike: 2:06

Yeah, you know, that's a good question. You know, I think with unfortunately, you know, sometimes when you have to get somebody, a celebrity, ready for a big project, most of the time, they never really give you enough time. And now and you feel the extra stress and anxiety, especially if they say, Hey, we need to look like this and like, you know, eight weeks or nine weeks, you're like, that's not enough time, you know? So I've never, ever felt that I've been given enough time to help somebody get ready for a big project. And so what happens is that you feel the extra stress, you feel the extra anxiety, and they always end up having to over train, you know, over training the client, because you're, you know, doing so much, you know, yeah,

Philip Pape: 2:52

that's a good point, right? Because if you have a deadline, we always talk about when you're setting up your fat loss phase, for example, you know, don't necessarily have a date in mind, and try to go aggressively toward a date, come up with a reasonable approach that'll get you there, and then get the results that come but some people have a wedding, they have a photo shoot, your clients have a date that they're going after. And it sounds like it leads to some level of trade off or extreme that maybe is not, quote, unquote healthy in the short term, but it gets you to the result. I mean, would you agree with that? And if so, you know, the everyday person listening, we're going to get into like, the pros and cons of that. But what are your thoughts on that approach for the everyday person?

Obi Obadike: 3:28

Yeah, you know, for the everyday person, I'm not an advocate of doing anything extreme, so it's really contradictory to my beliefs. When I'm trying to transform someone, when I have an everyday, average person that wants to get in shape, wants to lose weight. It's very important for me to get as much information from them as possible. I call it a health Screening Questionnaire. Get their height, their weight, their fitness goals, their dietary preferences, foods they like to eat, foods they don't like to eat, past or present, injuries, medical concerns I need to be aware of. So I want to get all of that detailed information from them, which allows me to create a tailored program for them, and then I really try to give it an honest time frame on how long it would take for them to lose the weight. Because a lot of times when you have to help someone get in shape within a shorter amount of time, the program is extreme, particularly if the time frame is limited. And so when you have an extreme program, exercise or diet. Typically, people can't maintain that, because the extremity is just too much, particularly when you're having someone work twice a day, or somebody that has to is on some, you know, extremely low caloric diet. So those type of training and diet program is too much. So again, I'm not an advocate of that, and the everyday, average person is really what to be honest with you, I enjoy training working with because I don't feel the stress and anxiety to have to get someone to look a certain way within such an extreme short amount of time. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 5:00

Yeah, I feel you on that. And love the fact that you gather all that information, right? Because me, I get questions all the time, What is your answer for x? And it's like, it depends answer my questions first, because I need to understand you as an individual, and I want the listener to understand that, you know, when you see somebody up on a screen or whatever, it's like a bodybuilding competition. You know, there's a above and beyond. It's almost like a performance related goal that at all costs in some cases, right? So you mentioned, you know, two a days and very low calories and things like that. So maybe tell us about a specific like transformation you went through with a celebrity, so we can understand what some of those trade offs are, and then we can kind of pivot into Sure, the everyday client. Yeah. Well, when I,

Obi Obadike: 5:41

when I got Morris Chestnut in shape for the best man holiday, this might have been about 11 years ago. I was given a time frame of, like, literally, like, I think, like 1011, weeks, if I'm not mistaken, and people don't believe this, but he came to me overweight, so he had to really drop about 30 to 33 pounds to get in shape for the movie. So, because we were so limited in time frame, I had to do two a day workouts with him. Where we were, you know, he was doing two a day cardio days, and then he was obviously lifting weights in the morning time. And then I probably had him starting off at his daily calories was probably I had he was 220 I got him down to 187 and I think the daily calories that I had him at the start was maybe about 1900 and then every couple of weeks we would drop it down to 100 and I think he probably at the lowest might have been at 1600 calories, because I was really trying to strip all that body fat from his body, and I wanted to make sure he was in an extreme deficit. And so that is not how I would never have anyone do two a day workouts, you know, that's like, like, if you're training for the Olympics or something, you know, but when you're limited in the amount of the limited time frame, that's, unfortunately, you have to do that. So he was on a low caloric diet, and then he was over training, you know, he was burning a lot of calories daily. I think we might have been doing this about like, five days a week. So they had given me, like, you know, four months or five months. Then the program might have been like, you know, maybe four days a week. And then would be, you know, four days a week of weights and four days a week of cardio. And maybe the daily calories would have been slightly higher, and it wouldn't be so low. Whereas, if someone where I've had other clients, where maybe some guy came to me and he weighed 240 pounds, and he wanted to lose 30 or 40 pounds out on average, start them off at maybe 20, 102,000 calories, maybe drop them down to 18, 1700 have him working out four to five days a week. Probably cardi wouldn't be more than maybe 3040, minutes at a time. So it'd really be a slow, incremental process, the whole one to two pounds per week, you know, Healthy Weight Loss type of thing, as opposed to someone that has to get in shape for a big movie. And he's got a limited amount of time frame, and he's dropping like, you know, four pounds or five pounds a week, which is not really healthy. It's doubled what is suggested by the CDC and what is really suggested by a lot of health and wellness professionals, which is that one to two pounds per week, yeah,

Philip Pape: 8:16

for sure. You know, sometimes we talk in percentages to, like, 1% a week, above which you might lose muscle mass. And we're hearing a lot of, you know, the rapid muscle loss with like the ozempic and those kinds of drugs and everything as well, because of the rapid weight loss. So what you're saying is, you know, if you got 10 weeks, three or four or five pounds a week, you're talking 1500 2000 calorie deficit, ish, something like that, which you're kind of making the calories not drop as low as they could drop by adding some cardio and movement on top of that. How do you monitor in that situation the body composition to get where you want? Because I imagine, for someone going into a role like that, it could literally just be get as shredded as possible, regardless of muscle loss, and that's the trade off. Or it could be, no we need to maintain some of that because of their starting composition. Yeah,

Obi Obadike: 9:03

I'd had Morris weigh himself every week when I was working with him, and then I would have him we would do like body fat composition test, maybe once every three weeks, once every month, you know. And the weight loss, obviously, as we as we know, first two weeks of any weight loss program, more than half of it is always going to be water loss anyway, not body fat loss and body fat. I always, I'm not really an advocate of checking body fat every week. It takes a while to really see the incremental drop. So I always like to do, if I'm going to do a body composition test, a body fat test, and check the body fat. I think once a month is enough time to see the incremental drop. So that's kind of what we were doing. And so what was fascinating, and then I also actually had him lift heavy weights because he was and that I increased his protein because he was in an extreme deficit. Wasn't getting as many calories. What was going to help with, with trying to minimize the muscle loss, was the increase in his protein intake and then lifting heavier, because we don't want him looking stringy. You know what I mean? We don't want to want him looking flat. He's supposed to be a professional football player in the movie, and he had the reason why it was so important to get him to single digit body fat was that so funny. He's got all these he's got a huge female following, you know, that wants to see that, that shirtless scene, that little V around the you know, that was the money shot. You know what? I mean, it's so funny. You train your butt off intensely for eight, 910, 1112, weeks for one shirtless scene, you know, in a movie which is so funny, you know, but that was it. So what was really cool about it was that, at the time, think he was like 43 or 44 at the time, so that was the best shape he'd ever been in his entire life. And so because at, you know, before social media exploded, it was all about fitness magazines. You know, if you were a fitness professional and you weren't in a magazine, before social media exploded, you didn't exist. So at that time, magazines were still relevant. And so I had those relationships with all the fitness magazines. So I was able to get him on a fitness magazine cover at the time that the movie came out, to capture this new, transformed physique. So that was really, really cool that I was able to use my relationships. And surprisingly, even though he's been on magazine covers, he had never really been on a fitness magazine cover, believe it or not. So that was kind of really cool to be able to capture this, you know, transform physique. And so when he was promoting the movie, they were showing that magazine cover, you know, it was really, really cool. So, yeah,

Philip Pape: 11:49

yeah, no. I mean, you make some good points there, right? Like, some of this is a snapshot in time, right? When people are scrolling through Instagram and seeing all these great looking physiques, it's like, that's a snapshot, right? That's the that's probably at their best, at their leanest. I've heard you mention, you know, even just to have six pack revealed, you've got to be sub, like 14% body fat, or in that range,

Obi Obadike: 12:08

if you're a guy, yeah, he was probably at the time, you know, just going off of my head. Don't quote me on it, but he was 220 he might have been probably in the, you know, body fat was probably in the 20s, you know, maybe 23 24% there. You know, he wasn't, he gets it. He was in the, definitely in the worst shape. So we took him down from that 20s, down to probably about, maybe it was probably at 8% seven to 8% something around there was,

Philip Pape: 12:38

he already a lifter before then, like he had, he already built some muscle. Yeah,

Obi Obadike: 12:41

he he was a fitness guy. He definitely wasn't like someone that was like, he definitely worked out. How do I put this? I wouldn't say like super, super fitness guy, but definitely was fitness minded, you know, more like, he liked doing athletic things, playing basketball, you know, as opposed to someone who was in the gym lifting weights every day. So he was definitely a physically active person. And for the most part, most movies that he'd ever been in where he did take his shirt off, it was never a problem. But I think at this time, you know, he's in his 40s at the time, and he was in New York, where it was really, really cold prior to the him the movie getting green lit, and he kind of was just staying in his apartment. Wasn't working out for months, and, you know, had no desire and motivation. And then all of a sudden he gets a call that this movie's got green lit. And the director's like, hey, we need you to look like this. And he's like, Oh snap, okay, I'm nowhere near that right now. How much time we got, you know? And so that's when he contacted me, and that started the working relationship and friendship as well. Too.

Philip Pape: 13:45

Cool, man. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, a lot of people can relate to just that time in their life. They're kind of letting things go for whatever reason, and now they need the kick in the butt to get back to it. What better way than a big role?

Obi Obadike: 13:56

Yeah, it happens with everyone. Happens with everyone. You know. We're all human beings, you know, and sometimes, whether it's stress, whether it's grief, whether it's depression, you know, so many different variables that can affect your motivation to want to exercise or do anything. You know, we all go through that, but some people are able to really always use exercise as a form of as an outlet, you know, as therapeutic. So, yeah,

Philip Pape: 14:26

yeah. All right, now, so talking about the everyday person, I do want to quickly segue to, like, your rapid fat loss or rapid weight loss for that population where it's sustainable and safe, and that's I kind of want the listener to understand that, because, yes, there's the reasonable, longer term approach that we probably should be taking, but then there's okay. Maybe I have been lifting. Maybe my nutrition is dialed in. I know how to hit the protein that OB is asking me to hit. Is there, you know, is there some sort of protocol or approach that you would take with a client like, Sure, well, I

Obi Obadike: 14:57

really believe in balance. I'm really. Of an imbalance. So I'm not a believer in extreme macronutrients, where your carbs are extremely low. Or I really believe a great starting template, macronutrient ratio wise is 4040, 20, which is 40% protein, 40% carbs, 20% fats. And then start to make your maneuvers from that starting point. So I feel like if you eat in a balanced way, I feel like you're gonna optimize your energy levels when you're trying to drop body fat and trying to drop weight, I feel like I don't feel like the processes should be where you're lowering your macro nutrient ratio because you believe you're going to drop more body fat, like, let's just say, for example, you're dropping your carbs down to 5% carbs. You know, maybe a Keto aspect. Not everyone can do that. You know, now your energy levels are so low and the process is very difficult for you, because you're probably enough affecting your mental ability to stay alert, you don't have the energy levels to be able to function, especially if you work a job that requires you to work long hours and stuff like that. So, you know, all the research shows that, yes, if you're on a low carb diet, will you drop body fat? Will you drop weight? Yeah, you drop weight the first you know week or two weeks, but it's water because of the glycogen once you drop your carbohydrate levels and stuff like that. But all the research has shown that you're not going to drop any more body fat if you're at carbs. Are five to 10% of your diets coming from carbs, as opposed to your carbs being higher. You drop body fat because you're in a deficit. Okay, you know. So when you know, I always say that when you the whole 30 diet, the keto diet, the Mediterranean diet, all of these different diets, why are people losing weight? What's so unique? What's so different, if they're losing weight because they're in a deficit, full stop, that's it. So once you understand how it works, then you're like, Okay, well, then I don't need to go that razor low on my carbs or my fats, or I could still have it where I'm getting enough, where I feel like my energy levels are optimal, and I can still work out with high energy. I could still play with my kids, be with my spouse. I could still work long hours, and my energy levels are going to be optimal because my macronutrients are balanced. So that's my approach in being able to get the optimal result. I don't believe that we have to go really razor on the macro nuture ratios and deplete you to get you to the goal. And you're absolutely miserable every week. I don't think it should be an unpleasant experience, you know. And then also, you have to also look at it from a long term perspective, you know, like, Okay, you're getting the person to that final goal, right, and, you know, but you're trying to create a program that they can continue after they stop working with you. So, okay, I got you to the goal in a miserable way, in a way that every week you have no energy whatsoever. And now this person wants to maintain this body, he's like, Oh, my God, I have to stay at this level. I have to stay at this, you know, 30 grams of carbs per day. I don't know if I could do that. I got there. Love my body, but that was tough. That was miserable. You see what I'm saying?

Philip Pape: 18:31

Oh, I see what you're saying. Man, we are 100% aligned. I'm glad you're on the show telling people carbs are important and balance is important, because you're totally right. Man, the most hate I got on a podcast episode was called, more carbs, more muscle. And it's like the Keto and the low carb zealots come out like, you know, again, we talked before we even started recording, like people eat cherry picking science or trying to, you know, the thing that they're trying to sell saying that this is optimal, just because they're trying to make money off of it. And, like you said, recovery, energy, balance, sustainability, all of the boxes are checked when you're just in a reasonably balanced diet, most people the protein's too low or the carbs are too low. And this

Obi Obadike: 19:05

is my thing. As long as you understand what you're doing if you're on a keto diet and it's helping you lose body fat and weight, God bless you. And if you're okay with that, that's cool. But what I'm trying to say, and what you're trying to say, is that, hey, this is what you're not losing body fat because you're on a Keto you're losing it because you're in a deficit. The science and the data shows that your macronutrient when someone is dropping body fat, it's not because of the Mac the the macronutrient ratio being dropped, or it has everything to do with your macronutrient ratio. It's because you're in a deficit. It has nothing to do with, you know, dropping your a certain nutrient level down to a minimal level, and that's why you're dropping body fat, and that's the science says that. So I think it's just understanding what you're doing, and then you could make the decision on which path works for you. And that's. What I believe in is just providing the information and, you know, pick a program what works for you. But I'm going to be honest and say, Hey, this may not be sustainable for you, you know, and then you have to make that decision, what you want to do.

Philip Pape: 20:13

Yes, that's a good segue into the question like, What is the perfect diet? Because you've already alluded to the fact that these named diets are not necessarily the way to go, that it's got to work for you. It's got to be customized. You know, what are those big factors besides macro balance, which is super important, and it can shift right? It can shift somebody might do better on higher protein or lower carbs or whatever. What are kind of the boxes you would check for the perfect diet for an individual?

Obi Obadike: 20:36

Well, I think the perfect diet is, as I was saying, it's the perfect diet is a diet that's balanced, that you're getting your proteins, your carbs, your healthy fats, complex carbs, your fruits and vegetables with every meal, your protein with every meal. You know your complex carbs with every meal. So I believe in the whole fruit rainbow effect, where you make sure you have your greens and your fruits and your vegetables with every single meal. You have your protein with each meal, especially if you're an advocate of wanting to maintain your lean muscle mass as you as you know, as you get older, every decade after the age of 30, you can drop anywhere from two to 4% of lean muscle mass. The only way to combat that, that muscle mass decline is lifestyle change. So protein, as you know, and resistance training, they work hand in hand, so making sure your protein is you're consuming that with every meal. I do believe in at least a gram of protein per pound, having your complex carbs and your breakfast, you know, lunch and your dinner, having your fruits and vegetables with each meal. So I just really believe in the balance approach. Obviously, if you're an athlete, and your activity level requires an extreme amount of physical activity level, and your carbohydrate intake is going to be probably double or triple the average person, because you're feeding off of that fuel to be able to sustain the activity level. So a lot of times your you know, your macro neutral ratio is really depending, is physical activity dependent. So this is not when I'm saying balanced in your ratio. I'm talking about the everyday, average person walking on the street. I'm not talking about a professional athlete. That's a completely different ball game, you know, in terms of what your ratio is, because if you're talking about an athlete, that carbohydrates gonna go really, really, really high, you know,

Philip Pape: 22:27

yeah, man, it's funny. I had a guy in the show. You'd love him. His name is Ben Lewis. Went through a massive transformation, you know, 280 he, like, lost 100 pounds. He got 60 miles a week of running. He qualified for the Boston Marathon. But he also lifts three days a week and has retained his muscle. It's amazing, but like, 4700 calories, you know what I mean. So a lot of that is going to be carbs. Wow.

Obi Obadike: 22:48

Exactly. How many miles a week does he run? 6060, miles? Oh, my God, jeez, I wonder. How old is he? He's 55 I'd love to know how his joints are, man, how his knees in his hips? No, that's

Philip Pape: 23:02

what I'm saying. I think you'd love him. We can touch base later. I'll because his episode is out before this one. Yeah, okay, so I mean, everything you're saying is, I'm sure the listener is like, okay, cool. I got it like the gram per pound of protein and having balance and having fiber and complex carbs and all that. What about the 8020 approach? A lot of us talk about, where, from a sustainability perspective, you got to have some indulgences in there? Yeah, sure. I'm

Obi Obadike: 23:24

a big advocate of that. For sure, 8020 and sometimes, some people need to 7030 like me sometimes. So I feel like, if you can, we all need it from a psychological perspective as well too, to ask someone to eat a certain way so strict seven days a week, I just don't think that's realistic. So you can still accomplish your goals with the 8020 rule, 9010 rule, and even push it to 7030 if you're exercising enough physical activity level that would give you that extra buffer to bring you from 8020 to 7030 so I am a huge advocate of that. I think that, as they say, indulging within moderation. And there's a word that people don't use in fitness called extreme moderation. And so moderation in how you eat and how you exercise, a lot of people don't understand when you exercise. There's a two it's a two prong effect. The first prong is you're working out and you're tearing down your muscle, so that's important, right? And then you're resting and recovering. And while you're recovering, it's rebuilding, so the rest is just as important as you're tearing it down. And people don't understand anything. It's tear, tear, tear. When is it recovering? When is it rebuilding after you've torn it down. It's a two step process. You know, I know people that have over trained, over train, over train, over train, like I'm always sore, I'm always sore, and I'm not improving my strengths. And they take a couple weeks off from the gym, and all of a sudden their strength levels jumped up. You know what I mean? Their lips are up well over training. Body, as in, you're not giving your body enough time to recover. Took me years to figure that out. When you're young, you think you can you're supposed to live in the gym seven days a week. And you get older, you realize, man, no, the rest is just as important as is working out.

Philip Pape: 25:17

Yeah, I'm with you. Man, that like stimulus to fatigue and that fatigue builds up, and the older we are. I hear you. I didn't really get into this properly until my late 30s, so it started to affect me, you know, not being as young of a guy anymore, and most of the people we talked to on the show in their 40s and 50s. So that's actually a good transition to you know, how important is that recovery and how much more important does it get as we age? You mentioned joints, right with the runner I was talking about joint health, connective tissue, all that like, what are the specific challenges individuals in that age group should really be thinking about, how do they recover and prioritize that?

Obi Obadike: 25:51

Sure. Well, I think that when you're talking about someone in their, you know, 40s, and they're in their 50s and stuff like that, I feel like the older you get, the more your rest and recovery is important your body. The thing when you get older is that the difference between someone who's in their 40s or their 50s or older than that, between someone who's younger is the recovery aspect, where you don't recover as fast. That's the problem when you get older. It's not the fact that you can't lift as heavy as you did when you were younger, but the recovery aspect is the issue when you get older. That's why, when you see an older athlete, the reason why they may not have the best performance is back to back performance, and they have back to back games the recovery. They don't recover as fast as someone who's younger. So you have to understand, as the older you get, you have to give yourself maybe even more recovery time. You know the idea of you working out seven days a week, or was, I've never been an advocate of that, but six days a week, you know, you'll probably find out you'll be able to have better performances in the gym, or even better body composition maintenance if you're training less, as opposed to more, particularly if your whole if your objective is Just to maintain your shape. You don't have any like you're not a marathon runner, or you're not competing in something or whatever. Maybe you just want to just stay in shape for your age, you know, and maintain your muscle mass. You don't have to be in there six days a week.

Unknown: 27:15

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Philip Pape: 28:07

so what are your thoughts then on, because you mentioned the frequency, and I have a lot of discussions with this, about this, with trainers and lifters. What if a three day a week program that has a certain amount of volume got split into six days, the same amount of total volume. In other words, you're spreading out the fatigue. Can that? Have you seen that actually be a beneficial input, you know, change for recovery, you know, I'm saying so this is more days, but the same amount of volume just spread over six days instead of three. Okay,

Obi Obadike: 28:35

yeah, no. I mean, I don't have an issue with that whatsoever, you know, because if you're spreading it out over six days, right? But the every day is probably a lower workout output. It's really not, maybe it's 30 minutes a day or whatever. It's not that much, you know. So you're not, you're not taxing the body at the highest level every day. So your body is given enough time to recover, because you're not taxing it to the point where you might need a day or two days to recover. So I don't have an issue with that whatsoever. I feel like when everybody's different, I feel like the mental, psychological approach of like just being able to have a couple of days from going to the gym and exercise. Sometimes it's really good just to have that psychological break, as opposed to, you know, I know people that just love the gym and they can't stay away from it, but sometimes just having that mental, psychological break from being in the gym, you know, at least two days, or, you know, at least two days. I think can actually help you. I know, for me personally, I used to train like this back in the day, six days a week, and you know, but I feel like me. Personally, I feel like I enjoy it more when I'm away from the gym at least a couple days a week, and then when I go back in there, I enjoy it even more. Uh, you know, as opposed to being in there six days a week, there's not only the physical approach to the physical recovery aspect, there's also also the psychological aspect as well too. I think at times, yeah,

Philip Pape: 30:14

I asked because, I mean, personally, I've experimented with both, and we talk about it on the show too. Because, like you said, the archetype of the person who always has to go to the gym every day. Do we scratch that itch by going to the gym every day? Or do we actually assess that maybe we're doing too much by going to the gym every day and using those off days? And also, I found one benefit of it is I'm a morning gym goer. Those extra recovery days just means I can get that extra hour of sleep. I mean, that can be huge, you know, for people just to sleep, you know? Yeah. And

Obi Obadike: 30:40

the thing about it is just, the most important thing is just to listen to your body. You know, because the human body is amazing, it'll tell you when you've done too much. It'll tell you when you need a break, if you're so sore. And I think it's so important to listen to it, and a lot of people don't, you know, so when you're able to listen to your body, it'll tell you, yeah, I probably made me to take a day off today. You know, I'm tired.

Philip Pape: 31:00

I know, man, yeah, recovering sleep are not sexy topics. You know, as much as we hammer home how important they are, you know what? I mean, people always want to talk about the on switch rather than the off switch. Yeah,

Obi Obadike: 31:12

I personally think if people can incorporate recovery and sleep and really incorporate that as part of fitness, okay, it's like, okay, exercise is part of fitness, but no one ever really talks about sleep and recovery is part of fitness. It is. It's really connected. If you truly want to optimize your goals, optimize your gains, it is part of that. And please stop watching some of these. You know, juiced uprooted bodybuilders tell you, you got to be in there seven days a week, you know, three hours a day. Well, they're taking drugs, man, you know, yeah, of course. You know, if I'm taking all that stuff, I probably could work out like that too.

Philip Pape: 31:52

I didn't know if you were going to get into the PDS too, because I know people have questions about that, but, uh, it's funny you ask. You say that, because I know if somebody asks, Hey, I missed some reps. You know what's going on? Should I lower the weight? One of the first questions I asked is, did you get enough sleep? Like, did you get enough rest? Are you taking long enough rest period? It's like, the absence of the stuff is usually supporting the stuff, and so, right? You gotta it's part of your fitness. Yeah, it's good one. What about lifting heavy? Because you mentioned lifting heavy, and that's kind of a I use that term all the time, and people are like, What do you mean for older folks especially? I mean, I am a big advocate of lifting heavy No matter your age. I don't care if you're 90, like, I think it's great. It's great for your skeletal muscular system. But what do we mean by that? And how does that come into play with connective tissue and joints and things like that,

Obi Obadike: 32:37

right? Well, I think as you all you get when you get older, I feel like, if you're lifting really heavy, I feel like, over time, it's not really good for your joints, especially when you're in your 50s. I still think you can push the muscle without going super heavy, like a power lifter. I'm not really an advocate of doing a set less than 10 reps, you know? I just don't really see the value of that, unless you're trying to be a power lifter. And the older you get, once you start lifting really heavy, you can fill in your joints. You're going to fill in your knees, you're going to fill in your elbows, you're going to fill in your hips. So I know that there's a high end of lifting heavy being strong, but you know, if your goal is to maintain muscle or even build it. Whether it's building or maintaining it, the muscle doesn't know that you're lifting 150 pounds. All it knows is the tension you've applied to it. It doesn't say, wait a minute, I'm lifting 120 pounds now. Now it's time for me to build. Now it's time for me to grow. All it knows is the tension. So when you understand how the muscle adapts to the stress that you put on it, then you realize you don't have to lift heavy to maintain the muscle or even build it, because most of it is really associated with the calories that you're in taking. But then the stress you put to the muscle, you can still stress the muscle without going heavy and go higher, repetitions go slower. So once you understand that, then I think it makes sense, okay, what's the better approach to longevity? You know, to protecting my joints and not having issues where I'm always in pain, my joints are always in pain, you know, because I'm lifting so heavy, we all eventually have to make those adjustments as we get older. I had to, I'm 48 I had to make those adjustments. I'm not going out there squatting four or five or whatever anymore. Back in the day, I who am I competing against? And then also, I don't want to have a knee replacement, I don't want to have joint issues and stuff like that. So I had to make those adjustments, you know. So, yeah,

Philip Pape: 34:43

yeah. And my thoughts on this have been nuanced and evolving over the years as well. It's kind of still mixed, right? Because I have a lot of friends and people listen to the show that are power lifters, or they are in their 50s and 60s, and get into lifting, and they, you know, they do the fives, right? They do the triples, they do the doubles. And it can. Managed, right? It's one of those things of like, you got to be really on top of everything. But even so, you do hear about tendonitis, and you hear about joint issues and people pulling stuff and whatnot, because if you're just out of the wrong position, you know, in the wrong position on a very heavy load, something can happen. So it's kind of a nuanced thing. But yeah, I hear you.

Obi Obadike: 35:18

I think as long as you're aware of the risk involved in it. That's the most important thing. I would never tell someone what not to do, but just understand, if you're lifting, really having your power lifting, let's say you're in your 40s and your 50s, you're not going to be doing that in your 70s. You're not going to be like, like your body will tell you to make the adjustment. You know, your body's gonna say, my elbow is killing me, my knees are killing me. I can't lift you know, I've seen it. You have to have seen a power lifter in their 70s or even their 60s, you know? And if they have like, God bless them. And if they are power lifters, they just started as a senior citizen, they weren't doing it for like, 3030, years or 40 years. It's true.

Philip Pape: 36:02

There is that if you start late, you get that advantage.

Obi Obadike: 36:04

I want to make the adjustment earlier and just understand, like, I don't want to be in pain, man, as I get older, you know what I mean? And I want to enjoy my life and and, yeah, it's good. We all want to push ourselves in the gym, and I do it. But there's a number that I don't go higher than anymore. You know, I don't like, even when I do flat dumbbell chest press back in the day, I'd go up to 120s or I don't go more than 100 anymore. Man, that's that's the max. It's 100 for me. It's just trying to maintain the muscle. And that's where I'm at. If you've been lifting for more than 10 years consistently, you're considered an experienced fitness enthusiast, and so once you've been lifting for more than 10 years consistently, the theory is that you've hit your genetic potential. You can't improve anymore. You're not going to get any more muscle. So when you know that, you're like, okay, even if I increase and go heavier and heavier heavier, I can't improve anymore. You know, like we're all going to we're all dealing with the gravity aspect as we get older, it's inevitable. Like I say, Father Time is undefeated. What are we doing? We're just slowing it down. We are slowing the decline down. That's what we're doing. Okay? We're just, we're trying to freeze that mofo without the fillers and the Botox. Excuse me. No,

Philip Pape: 37:19

I hear that look. I mean, I know a lot of lifters that go after the PRS, but then there comes a time when they have to switch it up, switch off the mode, go into some more bodybuilding and some higher up stuff, and they might occasionally dip back into chasing the PRs. And maybe there's a weight that's an extreme, like anything. It's like bodybuilding. It's like, you know, Morris going through his transformation. It's like the short term extreme at some cost of your health short term. But it's like, we're humans. We want to do that, just

Obi Obadike: 37:46

like someone in their 40s or 50s still playing rugby. You know when you're when you're in your 20s, and you know when you're young. You know young kid you play tackle football in the rain with no pads. You didn't care, you know if you got injured. And then when you get old, you're like, Oh man, I want to get injured, kidding me, you know, you just start making calculated decisions. I don't want to go crazy like that anymore. You know, I got nothing to prove, you know, but, uh, you know, like anyone that could do that, and, and, and they're able to stay healthy, God bless them. You know, I'm not hate, you know, like, wow, I'd be probably a fan. I can't believe he's able to lift like that at that age. Wow.

Philip Pape: 38:24

Yeah, no, awesome. So I guess the last piece here, because you've alluded to it a few times, is maintenance of, you know, maintaining long term results. And I can think of a few different scenarios, not just longevity as we age, maintaining muscle, but like, for example, if you lean out right and you're really dialed in, and you want to just, yeah, we want to have a good physique. And maybe you're in your 30s or 40s, you're not like up there in your 70s. Yet. How do we maintain those results long term? Does it start with, like you said, having that balanced ingrained in the whole process, or is there some trade off that has to be made once you say, get to a certain leanness that you know, if you just had a little bit extra weight, it wouldn't be nearly as difficult to maintain that long term. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah,

Obi Obadike: 39:03

you know, I feel like you have to figure out what your set point is, and everyone will know exactly what you're doing regular body composition test. There's a thing called the in body scan that I use with that I've used with clients and stuff like that. And you do the body composition test, and they'll tell you exactly how many calories that you need to consume to maintain your body weight, okay? And once you get an idea of that, then you'll know exactly, okay, this is the amount of calories that I can consume to maintain my body weight, and this is how I should probably spread out my calories, you know? So I think it's important to find out exactly you know how many calories is needed to be able to maintain your body weight. And you'll get that in a body composition exam, you know. And I do the in body scan, which I like. And I think that once you you know that, then the amount of calories you're consuming. And to maintain your body weight. And then that, to me, is probably more crucial than anything in terms of your body composition, and that obviously making sure that you know you're training enough consistently to be able to support the calories that you're consuming. So I think the amount of calories you're consuming that is needed to maintain your body weight is probably really important to be able to maintain your body composition. You know what I mean? So let's just say, for example, you know, you do a body composition, and it's saying that, hey, you know, if you consume 2200 calories a day, that's able to maintain your body composition presently, right now, which is what you're happy with right then, you know? Okay, well, this is what I need. And I maybe I spread out my calories in a 4040, 20 way, or maybe a 4030 you know, figure out what that macro split is. So I feel like the calories that you're consuming needed to maintain your body weight is probably critical to maintaining your composition over a long term period of time, and then making sure that the exercise activity is also mirroring that as well.

Philip Pape: 41:11

Yeah, I like that. You brought it to just the simple, practical energy balance answer of like, to maintain you got to be a maintenance calories like, there's no sense or buts about it, because we get a lot of people expressing fear, for example, after a fat loss phase of I'm going to regain all the weight, or what have you. And assuming they've already been tracking, and they kind of know their calories down to that point to have gotten there with that control, you know, I like to say, like, just continue to track and continue to be aware, and the awareness is going to prevent you from just randomly over consuming What about the mental side of it? Let's say a guy has gotten down to, like, 10 to 12% right, which is pretty lean. It's not like, you know, the movie star lean, but it's also not like a lifestyle, kind of where you start to lose your six pack. Okay, so 10 to 12% is that sustainable for a long period, or is it really highly variable based on, you know, the individual, their genetics and things like that.

Obi Obadike: 42:02

Well, you know what? It depends, depends on your genetics. We don't talk about genetics, you know. So for example, for me, right? I'm a natural ectomorph. I'm a naturally thin person, right? You know me maintaining a body fat of like eight or 7% or six to 767, to 8% is easy for me. That's maintenance for me, right? But that's my genetics, you know? And I have to be honest, I have the genetics right that helps me to maintain those low body fat levels where someone else that may not have the genetics, that may not be a mesomorph or whatever, or someone that can maintain a high amount of muscle or state and have low body fat levels may not be able to do that like they're coming down to 10 to 12% but they're having the diet they're bought off. They haven't eat perfectly. And then if they eat in a normal way, without being in and they were extreme to get the 10 to 12, and then when they eat normally, that 10 to 12 goes up to maybe their set point. Their set point may be probably about 1516, 17% so why is that set point higher than mine? It's genetics. It sucks, man, this whole genetic lottery thing, it sucks because some people are just gifted, and they don't have to work, they don't have to probably eat like somebody else to maintain their set point. And that genetics is really going to dictate to how extreme you have to be to maintain a certain level of body fat, body composition that might be unreasonable for someone else, but reasonable for another person. That genetic lottery thing, it's a real thing.

Philip Pape: 43:50

Yeah, no, I agree. And it's like we have to acknowledge that and not let it defeat us. Have realistic expectations, right? Have realistic expectations. As far as Yeah, my set point is probably 14% or which is much higher than yours. And you know, I was never in shape my whole life until I got older. So that could be part of it, too. You know, genetics, epigenetics, from when you're young. It

Obi Obadike: 44:09

definitely could be. Because I think once you get to a point where you get comfortable training and eating a certain way, just your body starts to it, becomes used to it. But if you're someone who started late in the game. You know, it does take time for your body to get used to it. For me personally, I don't really eat. I eat when I'm hungry. I don't have I don't write down my calories, you know, and I don't even, surprisingly, I don't eat that much. I'm not really a big breakfast eater. I kind of more in the morning time. I do more of an intermittent fasting thing, and then I my biggest meals are lunch and dinner and then snacks in between. But that works for me, people that have been around me. So this guy doesn't eat that much. How he's able to maintain that type of muscle? You know, it's interesting. You know,

Philip Pape: 44:53

it's very interesting. And I think if you do have a tendency to be on the heavier side, or it's harder to get down to the body fat, maybe. That's a good clue to, like, focus on building muscle, you know, instead. And just kind of because it does offset it a bit, I will say, from personal experience, like you see your abs at a higher scale weight when you have more muscle, like, that's just the fact of it. You still have to get lean, though, right? So it's kind of a blend, all right, man. So this has been a cool conversation. I do like to ask this question, of all guests, Ovi and that is, is there anything you wish I had asked today that I didn't and what is your answer? No,

Obi Obadike: 45:24

no, no. Look, I anytime I get opportunity to talk about health and fitness and diet and nutrition, it's always a blessing, and I hope that anybody listening was able to take some nuggets and apply it to their everyday life. So I appreciate the opportunity. And I just wanted to say, hey, I have a supplement company called ethical inc.com and if anyone's interested in uh, purchasing any uh, weight loss supplements, like an appetite suppressant or a probiotic for gut health or even a multivitamin, go to ethical inc.com and if anyone's looking to want to get in better shape online, you know, I work with everyday people and celebrities, you can go to Obi obadiah.com and that's it. And I'm on social media, and for anyone's looking to I'm always posting articles and free health and wellness articles, you know, every other day to try to motivate and help people for free. So yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so much. What's

Philip Pape: 46:15

the best social platform for you?

Obi Obadike: 46:17

Instagram, I would say. But I'm on Instagram and Facebook. I'm on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. I'm active daily. So, yeah,

Philip Pape: 46:23

got it? Got it? Yep, super responsive. All right. So ethical link.com, obediki.com, and Instagram, Facebook, Twitter handles. We'll throw those in the show notes. Thanks again, man, it's been a pleasure. A lot of great knowledge in here. I'm sure people will learn you know at least a few things that are gonna level up their game. So thanks so much, man, Philip,

Obi Obadike: 46:39

thanks a lot for having me on and much success to you and keep doing what you're doing. My brother.

Philip Pape: 46:43

Thank you, sir. You.