Philip Pape: 0:01

you've heard it all before track your calories and macros and weigh your food no, no, no. Just listen to your body and eat intuitively. Be flexible, but don't cheat. Maintain a calorie deficit for fat loss no, just eat mostly whole foods and you'll meet your goals. With so much conflicting advice, how do you know which nutrition approach will actually work for you? Today we're cutting through the noise with the man known as the godfather of flexible dieting. Whether you're an experienced macro tracker or just starting your nutrition journey, today you'll discover how to find the sweet spot between structure and freedom in your diet, so you can both enjoy eating and align your nutrition with your physique goals and lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 0:49

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to bring some clarity to the often confusing world of flexible dieting with Dr Joe Klimczewski. Joe is an absolute pioneer in the field. He's known as the godfather of flexible dieting and a man whom I followed for a while, during both my personal transformation and as a nutrition coach and podcaster. Now Joe has a PhD and degrees in just about everything physical therapy, health, nutrition literary journalism. He's a retired WMBF professional drug-free bodybuilder. He's also the founder of the Diet Doc. There's also a podcast that he hosts with the same name, and he's coached hundreds of athletes to professional status and world championships. Today, you're going to learn about the full spectrum of nutrition approaches, everything from macro tracking to intuitive eating, the overwhelming evidence for a flexible approach to dieting, and how to personalize your strategy based on this info. Joe, it's an honor to have you on the show.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 1:46

I appreciate it, Philip. Very good introduction, Speaking of literary journalism. That was just completely well engineered as a script.

Philip Pape: 1:56

Love it and the use of the word engineer. So that gets me and I got the podcast name right. The podcast is also the Diet Doc.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 2:03

We do one with a couple different names, including the Diet Doc, and then Contest Prep University for our competitive athletes.

Philip Pape: 2:09

There we go. That's another good one in my feed, for sure. All right, let's start with the common criticism of macro tracking. I mean, you and I are on the same page Probably most of the listeners are as well but you've got this dichotomy sometimes between macro tracking and intuitive eating. Some people say it's, at best, a rigid approach that locks you into tracking and weighing your food forever, and then at worst it's a socially acceptable form of disordered eating. So what's your response to all of that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 2:37

Well, I have to go back and add a little of my own context in the fact that when I started this 30 years ago, I didn't really look at it as an alternative method. I looked at it as a way of teaching clients about nutrition, and so my goal was not to say you have done these methods and now I have a new system to show you. We have to learn these things. You have to learn what's in food, so then you can make the best decisions. We have to learn these things. You have to learn what's in food, so then you can make the best decisions.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 3:06

So I would say I figured it out as I went with my initial clients, going all the way back to my initial postgraduate years, and the entire entire premise was freedom, only learned how valuable structure was, probably five or 10 years ago, when people still kept asking for meal plans in some form of structure. So I think that's when I went back and relied a little bit more on my social psychology background to realize, wait a second, this is more developmental than anything. People really do need a high degree of security and structure, and then they will take the steps necessary toward greater flexibility and freedom, and I think that's why there are so many people pulling this in different directions. They themselves, as academics or coaches or practitioners, are at different levels of their own discovery, and so they project that onto their client base, not often realizing that every single client is on their own chronological journey.

Philip Pape: 4:11

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. I think you were talking on another podcast about how the intuitive eating crowd or a person who comes up with a diet book and they have this special way of looking at food and they're like you don't have to track, you don't have to count calories, you don't have to count food. By the way, here is my structured table that you need to fill out every day for the portions of this, this, this, and you need to track these kinds of food. And you're like look, it's still a form of structure, it's still a form of tracking. It really comes down to what works for you, but I do like how your premise was. Like you said, the premise was freedom. So if that's the case, why was what existed at the time not giving people that freedom, even if it seemed to ostensibly have structure or planning built in?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 4:55

There are a couple layers to think through. The first is just societally so. In the early 90s, when I was just starting my business, the internet didn't exist as it does now. Social media did not exist at all. Matter of fact, my first doctoral dissertation I had to type on a typewriter. The kind of technology and communication we have today just didn't exist.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 5:20

So the types of weight loss efforts people would engage in were should I do the zone diet or the Atkins diet? Whatever was on the bookshelves at Barnes and Noble is what people had at their fingertips, and that was literally it. That was it. And so for me already, kind of a pedagogical approach because I had just gone through so much academic work myself was okay. There has to be a way to teach these people how to do this for the long haul.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 5:49

Why do people fail? Even back then I understood recidivism was just the biggest obstacle. So if people had a hard time keeping weight off, why is that? And I knew it was because they were not learning anything, they were just blindly following a rigid diet structure. And again, as that kind of break point in our history, before mass media, before digital communication, before social media, there already existed some pushback against that. The phrase rigid dieting already existed. There just wasn't an answer for it and so, as I said, I kind of stumbled through, trying to teach people parts of diets they already may be familiar with.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 6:37

Here's what you've done in the past, what worked, what didn't work. Ultimately, why did that fail? And now we need to reverse engineer that and make sure you learn what is in food. So, tracking macros I used to, philip, go to Barnes Noble every month and buy cases and cases of Corinne Netzer's book called the Food Count Book, and it was just probably a 600, 700-page book. That was like a printed version of a macro tracking platform Database. Yeah, yeah, 700 page book, there was like a printed version of a macro tracking you know, platform database.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 7:06

Yeah, yeah, and, and, and. I would sit down with a client and our first consult was to teach them how to look up food. Look up, you know, this is what you like for breakfast, this is what you what you like for lunch. Let's use the foods you you already enjoy and let's put together an appropriate meal plan. Maybe we do need to substitute some better options, but let's mathematically look up what that means, the language of nutrition being this numerical attachment of energy balance. And that was mind-blowing to these clients and they loved it, especially because we were doing that together. So they could then go home and say, wow, if this is what I eat for this snack, what's an equivalency I could use in a different food if I get bored or I just don't have that food? And so they would instantly get in that groove of tracking macros. For the purpose of freedom, I can eat what I want as long as I know what energy value it's giving me.

Philip Pape: 8:05

So there's an education and skill component and the idea that you stumbled into this. It's funny because probably many of us can relate, even in our own lives stumbling across things. Hopefully it's easier now with podcasts and books and whatnot. But I tried tracking macros two or three times over the 20 years I did diets and it wasn't until the third time where I did it, while also, you know, coming across Eric Helms and the muscle and strength pyramids and the recent research on flexible dieting and kind of almost got lucky. I'm grateful that I finally saw oh, now I understand how this all connects and now I'm immersed in that world and you're talking about before we had the internet, before we had a database.

Philip Pape: 8:45

It sounds like a hard work. Maybe it's what Weight Watchers capitalized on with the point system later on. What is the history in the evidence of rigid versus flexible dieting? My understanding is it really took off in the 90s, but how did that get us to today? Even the term flexible dieting, which is misunderstood as either if it's your macros or just general flexibility how does that all bring us to today, I guess?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 9:11

It's actually very recent. I can only now find research that investigates the phrasing flexible dieting or macronutrient tracking up to about the last eight to 10 years. Up to about the last eight to 10 years, which makes sense because as I was doing what I was doing, it wasn't like it was on the cover of Time Magazine or on CNN every night. It took a while for that to take off and then become more of the normalized version. So, especially when social media came around about 20 years ago, now more people are doing that and we now have an entire generation of exercise scientists and nutrition academics who grew up, as you like, looking at this as a more normalized version of how we even understand nutrition, and now they are backtracking, saying wait a second, this actually hasn't been tested, it hasn't been evaluated or researched in all the ways we should, so there is a massive amount just coming out. So it's really kind of a beginning phase, I think, of the research you're going to see proliferate a lot in the next couple decades.

Philip Pape: 10:17

Yeah, it's very exciting. You know, talking to guys like Bill Campbell and Alan Aragon, you know, even they give you a sense of what we still don't know and what we don't know we don't know in the field and a lot of it is trial and error and you know, you and I work with clients, and those listening to the show know that there's often 20 paths to the same solution and that's part of the flexibility and sustainability. Just the other day I onboarded a client who's like I just want to have the exact same calories every day. It reduces stress for me. And then another client will say I need more calories on the weekend. That reduces stress, right, so exactly exactly.

Philip Pape: 10:51

So you know, I've heard you talk about, like, the levels of precision, the levels of not perfections, so to speak, but there's a dichotomy there. And then, like, are we using data to just improve this skillset, improve this education, versus looking at it as failure? Right, there's a big mindset piece. So can you kind of explain that, the failure versus data, the precision versus perfection, and then how that relates to what we're ultimately trying to get here was just something sustainable that works for us.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 11:20

Everything you just said there, if we combine it, I think has all the answers in that.

Philip Pape: 11:24

Okay, we're good, we're done Well not just you.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 11:28

Me and other people in our industry know what we don't know, and we don't know that there are, or we know there are, things we don't know. Clients are very myopically blinded by this. Is this is the only step I can see, like whatever you're telling them to do, and they don't think they can do it. That's as far as they go. So what am I going to eat tomorrow? And that's why they ask for the security of a meal plan, or just tell me exactly what to eat. I need to eat the same thing every day to make it easier. And then, as soon as they break through that barrier, then they can see the next step, and that's going to probably elicit the need for a little more flexibility. Oh, I didn't consider that on Tuesdays I have to take my kids soccer practice, and oh, friday I have this employee meeting and I can't eat my normal breakfast, and so then they have to start creating and crafting different types of strategies. So they will always, for a long time, think of failure as a looming threat. What if I can't do it? This is what I'm supposed to do. What if I can't do it? Then they get through that step and they think of another pitfall that they might encounter. And so it is the goal of a coach. It should be the goal of a coach to show them that, look, there is no such thing as ultimate failure here. It's data and it's learning, and maybe we don't have our best day. We learn from that. We have a better day tomorrow. Is this week a better week than last week? Did we do better this month than we did last month? Even getting down to the unit of a day as well? If I hit my macros today, that was success. Well, what if you didn't? Does that mean the whole week was any worse than last week? So I think we are constantly going to be reminding clients through their entire process that you know, don't think about failure. Don't think about failure. Don't think about failure. Just think about learning and experience and progress.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 13:23

Because ultimately, philip, you know, we track macros, we learn that language of nutrition so that it doesn't have to be so cumbersome later. I do not track macros now. I do not physically enter into an app or a spreadsheet because I just don't have to. I know what I'm eating, I know what's in the food I'm eating. I know the quantities I'm eating. I know how long ago my food I'm eating, I know the quantities I'm eating, I know how long ago my last meal was, when my next meal will be. All of that stuff is just subconscious to me now, and when I need it to be a little bit more top of mind, then I can access that. But again, a client just starting. None of that stuff even makes sense. They don't know what they don't know, and so we have to be the guides that successfully, happily, take them from one step to the next.

Philip Pape: 14:12

Yeah, it's a great way to put it, because people do want the answer they want, like how do I do this? Give it to me. And what you're saying is there's this baseline that looks like rigidity that people come from, due to society, due to years and years of diets. Failure is this threat that's always there around the corner, but the progress we make is by shifting that slowly, with these strategies, which may require a coach or someone else to kind of give you the possibilities, right, because people just don't always know, and then eventually it becomes intuitive. You mentioned the word better and I want to poke at that a bit, because you'll often hear somebody say, like I'll hear this in a check-in you know I didn't do good or I could do better, or I did better. What are your thoughts on that? How do you define better? Is better being more able to take the data and make informed decisions, or is it actually hitting targets more accurately? Like what? What is better to you?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 15:05

Well, chronologically, again, it kind of depends on what that client is working toward. Um, I want to see objectivity become somewhat integrated. You use the words in the introduction being aligned with your goals, and so initially, you know, if I'm working with my grandson on learning the alphabet, you know we kind of have to learn the basics. Like we really need to focus on how to draw those letters, what order they're in, like there's a system and we just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. We get those reps in to learn, then you can use those letters any way you want, you can create a Shakespearean play. Now you have ultimate freedom.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 15:46

But it took a shit ton of rote work and repetition just to get there. So for some clients, yes, it's, it's, let's practice on content, meaning you know the quantity and so forth, and uh, let's start interceptively trying to match what your body's telling you. There's intuition, right. Can you really tell what your blood sugar is? Uh, you know how empty your stomach is, like like those kinds of things Can you try to quantify, even though you can't measure them completely objectively. And we get down the line where you're improving your health, you're improving the body composition levels that you want, and yet you're also integrating it into real life with a sense of ease. We don't want this to add stress to you. We want it to relax the levels of stress to you. So I think all of those things are happening simultaneously, but again a client's really going to be focusing on what they need for that step that they're on.

Philip Pape: 16:47

I know why you're such a great coach because you're putting me at ease with the way you take us on this journey to a more relaxed state of living, which is what we want. I think people you know a guy like me is obsessed with numbers and can get neurotic about things, and I very much identify with that archetype, and so when you can get to the point where it's just life, I think that could be awesome. You said a few things I want to mention. You said I want to see objectivity become more integrated. That's beautiful because it is a very emotionally driven thing food right, emotion, then tied to the emotion of body image, then tied to the emotion of like all the expectations we have and others have for us, maybe with our health. So making it more objective, even if objective means tracking something about yourself subjectively, but in a way that gives you awareness that didn't exist before, you know. You mentioned a bunch of different aspects of biofeedback. You also mentioned because so we homeschool our kids and they pretty much love all their subjects. But you mentioned the alphabet and I was thinking math, a similar thing where there's always this pushback against memorizing your times tables right, but that builds a foundation for making arithmetic easy.

Philip Pape: 17:54

And then, once you learn arithmetic, algebra is easy. And then, once you learn arithmetic, algebra is easy. And then algebra makes calculus easy. I know, not for everybody is people are like what? But I love math. So I think people need to understand that there's an element of patience required, but you can get to a point where you've got this mad skill, these mad nunchuck skills. If you remember Napoleon Bonaparte and I've been through that man like I had no clue what I was doing for decades and now it's like yeah, I have confidence, right? Isn't that what we want, joe? Like just clarity and confidence.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 18:22

I absolutely used a bunch of the phrases you just described with a couple of client conversations yesterday. Well, one is with a client who is the ultimate perfectionist, you know, high in neuroticism, and I had to say, look, man, I get it Like I want that standard to be high, I want you to achieve all your goals, but we need some patience as well. You are, you are a bag of biology and that's not linear, like it's not going to happen every day Like you want it to. You have to contend with a lot of things neurologically, physiologically, and so take a breath, let's calm down. Let's look at the long picture here, the long term.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 18:58

But another client you were talking about just having confidence in that word is so important. Can you just have the confidence that you're doing enough things well, that you're still making progress? One of those 10 variables you may think just wasn't up to snuff yesterday or last week, but that's okay, we're doing other things. We can backtrack and work on that as well. So, yeah, I really think that's a great way to. You're not an expert or you wouldn't be submitting yourselves to our care and our guidance and our support. So how long would it take you to learn a foreign language. How long would it take you to learn a musical instrument? Let's give this a little time and let's build this process so that, a year from now, you never have to worry about it again.

Philip Pape: 19:53

Yeah, and even if you know the saxophone, the clarinet might be hard. I mean my I'm trying to help my daughter with a clarinet and I'm a sax player and it's like YouTube, like I don't know the finger. So people, just again having some grace with yourself that you may be good in one thing and then others need help and so reach out for help for that client you mentioned, who's also a bit neurotic about hitting exact targets. Let's get to specifics about macros, for example. Would you use ranges? Would you use minimums? What would be a good stepping stone approach you might take with somebody like that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 20:23

I've always used ranges I mean from 30 years ago forward simply because, again, a daily metric is not totally necessary If I'm 10 or 15 grams over in this or 20 grams under on this. First of all, the energy exchange may be perfectly fine. Two, we don't know what your energy expenditure is every single day and it just may come out in the wash right. Your net weekly averages, I think, are more important than one particular day, and that also is feedback and data. You know, if we see that you're consistently over here or under there, let's see if there's a way to move the goalposts to fit better, what you naturally might need. You know not what I subjectively assessed. So there's a lot that goes into just creating a system of boundaries and then observing what's happening and then starting to fine tune and maybe tightening up those ranges a little bit.

Philip Pape: 21:23

But I think there always has to be an element of range versus just super specific numerical goals goals, yeah, yeah, I've always wondered about that, because even I suspect that even with if the range is too tight you mentioned the tightening of the range of even if it's too tight that could almost be just as restrictive as a number itself. One thing I found it in I'm sure you've experienced this with a client who, well, let me ask you as a question, would you ever go with something more, let's say, aggressive? So let's say, somebody wants to do fat loss and you set them into, you know, a slightly larger deficit, knowing that if they aren't even close to the targets, they're still going to be in a deficit? Or would you rather, right off the bat, go precisely after the glide path you want? Do you know what I'm saying?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 22:10

Yeah, um. So it's interesting because when I am mentoring coaches, speaking of rigidity, most new coaches come from this just highly fundamentalism type approach. Like this is what I'm going to do with my clients, and they're going to do it this way, and you know, I need to really rein them in and tell them to sit back and look at each client as an individual who might need a different type of journey, client as an individual who might need a different type of journey, and so one of the things that I do, especially in our NAMS certification coach coaching program, is teach coaches that a client who comes to us wants results and they're excited, they're motivated, like all of that is very front loaded, and so they're probably going to make a lot of higher quality decisions. They're going to eat more energy, dense foods, healthier foods, and so, instead of falling into the trap of pop culture levels of food, like everybody needs to eat as much as they possibly can and I don't want to make my clients feel bad. So even a female who may be 60 years old and a hundred pounds overweight, I'm going to give her 300 grams of carbs and 70 grams of fat. They're just.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 23:19

You're probably going to put them in a position where they're very frustrated. They're not losing weight. Two or three weeks down the line, they've hired you and now you're going to take food away Like that's like they're already upset and now you're penalizing them. Like they're already upset and now you're penalizing them. So when I'm working with a new client, I definitely want to get out of the gate strong, because physiologically they're probably going to feel better regardless of what we do. And then, after a really good launch, they're going to get, instead of punished, rewarded by saying wow, we need to actually increase your food a little bit Now. They feel like rock stars. So the process we do things as coaches and for ourselves, I think matters a lot. So you know I don't know if that answers your.

Philip Pape: 24:03

Yeah, no, it does. It's one of a million permutations of you know how do you handle a client situation? And I only bring this up because, again, when I work with clients, these pop up and I'm like I'm talking to Joe. This week I got to ask him, you know, because I've seen clients who they're in an intended deficit and then they're overshooting on their calories but they're still in a deficit and making tons of progress and it's like that's a huge win. Like before you were struggling to make progress, now you're not and, like you said, maybe it's now learning about that and just tightening it up, like, hey, you could even make more progress potentially. Or we titrate you back to a less aggressive rate now that you've gotten that quick win, like you said, out of the gate.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 24:42

Well, if I could offer Philip another way of looking at this is sometimes clients come to us now with a lot more sophistication. They've probably gone through a few programs, They've tracked macros before. So most clients are coming to us with a lot more knowledge than perhaps they would have 10 or 20 years ago, and along with that comes their own level of confidence that I know what I need. And so that often leads to a little friction with a coach. And so, for example, I had a client just maybe about a month or two start with me just a month or two ago and he said I don't want to track macros. So he had already kind of hit that approach and just thought it's too tedious, monotonous. I'm not an accountant, I don't dig that kind of stuff. So I said, sure, let's just work on habit-based stuff. I'm willing to meet any client where they are, I'm willing to meet any client where they are. And so he was working on these things, these habits, everything was going great.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 25:36

And over the course of his first month he gained about five or six pounds. He was like wait a second, I'm eating better, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. And I said well, you know, I mean, your body doesn't make body fat out of thin air, like we are dealing with very finite energy balance quantities. Problem is you're just not aware of what they are, because you decided you wanted an intuitive approach, maybe because you've tracked some macros in the past and you at least have that foundation. We just simply need a little bit of an auditing period, a little bit of regrouping. So I would bet if we track your macros for a couple of weeks, just so you can establish the meals and the meal quantities and the food sources that you want, then you wouldn't have to track anymore because you already know how to do that. And of course, boom. His next month, you know he lost that five or six pounds and more.

Philip Pape: 26:26

Did he stop tracking after that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 26:28

We're in that phase now. We're, we're still, we're kind of entering the end of that and we'll see, we'll, we'll. You know, maybe it kind of goes on autopilot or maybe he keeps tracking uh, you know, we'll.

Philip Pape: 26:40

We'll see where he wants to go with his own personal journey here. Sure Cause, sometimes you know the thing that's giving you the result you're like, hmm, maybe I'm going to keep doing this for a while. So another angle when it comes to that is people think of the terms counting calories right, and weighing all your food you know, sometimes put into derogatory context and how it can potentially lead to an unhealthy relationship with food. What, what is the reality on that? I mean, what does both the evidence say and your experience say on tracking tied to obsessiveness or, you know, your relationship with food?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 27:08

So you use the word archetype a few minutes ago and I did one of my master's theses in personality psychology and so I'm very familiar with all the different ways of assessing it and just the way people think and information flows through our brains, and I think, to be honest, that just comes down to a person's personality type. Sometimes it's all about the food, sometimes it has nothing to do with the food, and so these are conversations we're not all equipped to have with a lot of depth with clients. I'm not going to psychoanalyze a client and tell them what they need and what they don't need, but I'm going to certainly suggest that there are possibilities that you know. Maybe we do need to focus on the mechanics of this food, maybe we need a little more structure, maybe we need a little more flexibility, or maybe this has nothing to do with the food and like we're really dealing with some impulsiveness. Uh, we're dealing with, uh, just a lack of time, like you just don't have the bandwidth to really focus on this.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 28:07

You have so many other things going on in your life. There are myriad reasons why somebody may be struggling and feel like food is becoming too obsessive. You know, binge eating, of course, is a huge deal and a lot of people who come to nutrition coaches have that already as a backdrop. And we are the next stop in a long chain of ways to struggle with something they feel is very out of control. And you're the coach coming along thinking you have all the answers and the perfect process and system, and this person is literally drowning in psychological issues that have nothing to do with the food. They're just dragging food into that system. So, again, a lot of things for coaches to be aware of and know our scope of practice and how we can help clients become aware of how they might need some other resources besides us. But we certainly have to be good enough to recognize when it is and when it isn't about the food.

Jerry: 29:08

I just wanted to give a shout out to Phillip. I personally worked with Phillip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist. Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one. He's really taken the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth.

Jerry: 29:30

If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, philip.

Philip Pape: 30:22

I'm glad you mentioned scope of practice. If you hadn't, I would have mentioned that as well. Whether you're a coach listening or a client that not every coach might be right for you to be able to go into the depth you need. Or if you need mental health care or something like that. I know I've referred clients to a friend of mine who's actually a hypnotherapist, but he used to be in kind of a nutrition coach for years as well. So straddles both sides of it. I was thinking of the movie Stuts on Netflix. You ever seen that?

Philip Pape: 30:48

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I bring it up all the time because I think that's a great example where the therapist helps the client process through and kind of move forward and use tools, very much like you were talking about just using tools and structure and kind of getting objective about it to see if that helps the client process through, even without necessarily uncovering the trauma or going back into childhood. If they need that, they need that. But is that a good parallel, do you think?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 31:21

Yes, and Phil Stutz. If you read his book he even goes into more detail. The etiology of his practice theory is why are we just sitting here going through all of this stuff and psychoanalyzing? And then the patient is just left feeling like, am I ever going to get any help? And he said I knew as a psychiatrist I needed every single patient to leave my office every single session feeling like they have some good work to do and some light at the end of the tunnel. They have something they can improve and work on right now, and that is a perfect parallel to nutrition.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 31:50

What is our goal right now? Sometimes it is just to reframe our thoughts around food. We don't have to lose weight. We don't have to make sure we're staying in a state of lipolysis and so forth If that is not going to matter for the longterm. If what you need right now is something a little bit more esoteric, then that's what we have to focus on and that's that's why I love the way you said. You said you have to understand whether a coach is right for you or not. There is so much that goes into a coach's skills being able to meet what you need at this moment in your health history and your health journey.

Philip Pape: 32:28

You know how to make a guy feel warm and fuzzy, joe, with all your compliments, so thank you. But I do think you're absolutely right with the goal of reframing, is sometimes what you get out of it, and it's so underrated because this isn't about. It really isn't about macros. For the most part it's how you look at things, and there's somebody in my coaching group who calls me the positivity bully because almost inevitably her thing is just the way. She says something, let's reframe it and aha, everything just gets unlocked. And if we could do that with ourselves, that could be powerful. What about you? What do you suggest to the listener? Joe is a valuable tool when it comes to reframing. Um.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 33:08

I think this is where it helps just have the support that we can offer. Uh, one of my clients mentioned to me just this week like I would pay you just to be my friend, like if we ever get through all of my goals and all this stuff, like, will you please never leave me, I will pay you, even if we're just friends and you know, talk about a compliment, right, because that person is articulating that I find your support as valuable as the mechanistic things that we're working through and for part of our work together. That is the most important part. Isn't it funny, philip, that we're teaching people to use third grade math as it relates to nutrition? And we know a calorie isn't just a calorie quote unquote but it kind of is.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 33:55

And so a lot of the skills and the progress we're teaching is how we can get all of this to line up and work in real life, as we agreed earlier, with some ease as it becomes second nature. And so some of the psychological aspects, behavioral things, maybe, our social circumstances, family life and so forth, it all changes and it's all this ball of dynamic chaos that we can't always control, but it sure helps to have a coach who can help you organize it for your end goals, for you to get there and then learn how to manage it yourself. If it were just as easy as watching a YouTube video and learning a single skill okay, you know, there's the ballgame. You don't need anything else, you've got the video. That's never going to happen, you know. A good coach is valuable in that way.

Philip Pape: 34:45

Yeah, I totally agree. I used to do a lot of how-to episodes that were very long and people would still have questions, because there are a million exceptions to every rule. And you said dynamic chaos, that's life. And if anyone listening is like, well, but this thing happens to me. Just know that that is the default for everyone. Like things are going to happen literally every day that we can't expect. So, given that, joe, what would you say? You've worked with a lot of high-level athletes, bodybuilders I mean, you've seen the whole spectrum of people. Is there a toolbox you have of I'll call them default strategies? Let's say that you can start with like nonlinear dieting approaches or calorie cycling, refeed, diet breaks, like kind of how do you put that all together? We don't have to get into super nitty gritty, but is there a set of strategies that people can start from when they personalize things, knowing that their schedule, their lifestyle, could be anywhere?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 35:38

I definitely like to start with a high level of structure, as I mentioned, and even if that's just one step so if I am onboarding a client, as you said earlier, and even if they are super intelligent, they know exactly where we're heading I'll say, okay, let's look at the foods you like, your schedule, this, that let's look at the macronutrient energy balance goals we have and let's put this together as a single step. And then how are we going to move forward from that? And I will say, philip, I try to play the subjective and objective parallels together. I'm certainly assessing objective data, I'm looking at progress and so forth, as I'm interviewing them and assessing subjective input, and so I need them to see both as well. You mentioned that I work with high-level athletes, and so I'll mention you know, having worked with NFL football players and being basketball players and so forth, Olympic athletes even. Even you know there's a lot, a lot of risk. I mean, they, they, they have goals that are very high level goals and they need things to work extremely well, and I'm part of their coaching team doing one thing specifically, and so I have to make sure they're getting the absolute, most accurate, concise, best information, because they are going to follow it, like they are so incentivized, best information, because they are going to follow it. Like they are so incentivized, motivated, they are going to follow it.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 37:00

So I start with that same mentality with any clients of any level, knowing that this is this is how I'm going to perceive it.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 37:10

If I'm a neurosurgeon, I'm not doing my best work only for this client because I think their value is different than this patient's value, but at the same time now I start reading their input, their level of interest, what they need to work on. There's a constant assessment. So my toolbox and my default strategies are always just I'm going in here ethically looking at what can I do, and that starts with my own level of time commitment. There was a day speaking of 20, 30 years ago, before smartphones existed and you could message on 50 different apps and so forth, where communication was fewer and far between, and so there's just no excuse today for a coach not to be giving super high level service and communication, and so I think that that is the crux of it. Any default strategy, anything I'm pulling out of my toolbox, is going to be for that context, when that client needs it, and it's my job to constantly read that situation with them and communicate through it.

Philip Pape: 38:16

Yeah, and it's, would you say.

Philip Pape: 38:19

It's rewarding too when you realize that, although everyone can have kind of this starting point based on their numbers, based on their objective data, when you really get into it with the conversations and this is where listeners, you know, I always encourage you to to talk to someone you know, like have that support, whether it is a coach or community or another person going through this there's something different about you, there's something going on, there's something that you need help with, and sometimes it's little right, joe, it's like I have a client who does everything, but her fiber was a bit low and she was having some gut issues, right.

Philip Pape: 38:50

So it's like, okay, there's the thing, but it may not have been obvious just from putting you on this objective plan or using this single one size fits all. So, all right. What do you think of people going it alone? And it's kind of the opposite of that. When people try to go alone, if they're, let's say, very self-motivated, they listen to your podcast, my podcast, so they know all the right things, and they're like I'm going to do this. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 39:14

Well, I'm all for it because I do that myself. I changed my son's brakes with him in our driveway, with a YouTube video. The problem is it took three trips to the auto store and 12 hours and we still didn't do it very well, where I could have just taken it in and spent probably the same amount of money and had it done in an hour. But I'm all for it. Like I love the experience part. I love that people are trying to save a little money or be independent. It's just that you have to decide what level you want to play at, and so you know, if you run into snags, then a coach may be helpful.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 39:50

We don't know what we don't know. So those are the kinds of things your clients who may have had some GI issues and would not have maybe stumbled across the information that he or she needed a little extra fiber. Or should it be soluble versus insoluble? Should I experiment with this? Maybe I need a probiotic? Um, so you know, when you have an expert at your side, it's going to be a little bit more efficient. Uh, but I I cannot complain about people who love to, you know, engage in a little DIY. That's, that's certainly what I like.

Philip Pape: 40:19

I hear you, man, I'm right there too and and have also hit the wall. Or you know, when we built our house, how many times I had to go to Home Depot Cause I forgot one little part. You know, like geez, the amount of gas I'm spending was probably worth hiring somebody. All right, cool. So we we've had a lot on psychology. I do want to dive in a couple detailed areas that people are always interested. One of these is hard gaining people that are struggling to build muscle. What, what's your, what are your top strategies when you see this, and just to give you context, I don't want to label somebody as a hard gainer by default, cause that's like a, you know, a fixed growth kind of thing. It's more of um, I like to use a hard gainer phase, or you're experiencing a hard gaining phase during your gaining phase.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 41:06

What are your top strategies for that? Again, interesting timing, because I was just messaging a client who think we're up to four or 5,000 calories and really pushing to try to gain some muscle, and as a just pure ectomorph he has some great advantages, but that becomes a job. I mean, that is tough. How do you squeeze in more food when you're already eating that much every two to three hours? And so it becomes somewhat strategic. You know, we're of course working on calorie density, but with whole foods and high quality foods that becomes an absolute volume game game. So what is your threshold for? Maybe simple sugars, liquid calories? We want, you know, some fat for density, but how much saturated fat is good for you or not? So again, I mean a lot of, a lot of experimentation, a lot of talking through scheduling and food source availability.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 41:57

One of my clients who is a competitor in a very controlled off season and she wants to, you know, maintain her weight only six, seven, eight pounds above contest weight, which is appropriate for her next goal, and her baseline food intake is already really, really high, really good, you know she's at 250 or so grams of carbs, 70 grams of fat, and so if we want to try to push for just a little more hypertrophy, just a little bit more body mass gain, without it being body fat.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 42:27

Do we just add an extra 20 grams of carbs, an extra a hundred calories a day? I told her let's be really strategic, let's put this where it matters the most pre-workout, post-workout what days do you really feel hungry? Because you may just have a little bit more non-exercise activity? And so it's not just sometimes blanketly adding calories, it's being very, very strategic with those. So for a hard gainer, of course, as I just mentioned, it's going to be pre and post-workout how do we fuel the best workouts and how do we get the most absolute recovery we can? And that's going to be probably a lot of food around those major heavy, compound exercise days.

Philip Pape: 43:06

Yeah, love that. So both the calorie density. But now you have to watch out for trade-offs between calorie density and like how much processed foods or liquid foods or fat, because fat has saturated fat. Yeah, you're right, there's, there's difficulties that people don't always appreciate. And then strategically aligning that with your schedule, your training, because at the end of the day, we're trying to get the most out of our training here, right? So, okay, love that. What about carbs? Because you mentioned carbs multiple times and of course, there's always been debate about the role of carbs and muscle building in performance and people cherry pick the studies. You know you got the keto crowd saying, no, you can be super jack, build tons of muscle, and keto Others are like, no, here are the studies on bodybuilders that you build like five times as much muscle when you have moderate to high carbs. So what's your, what's your take on that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 43:49

I mean exactly what you just said. The studies are pretty clear. So you know, first of all, on protein intake, there's a minimum threshold and there's a maximum, and so the Protein Summit a council that has met a few times has very conclusively, with all of their experts from around the world in multidisciplinary fields, have shown that about two times the US RDA is the sweet spot, that's the peak of the bell curve and you can go up to maybe three times the RDA and there can be some value sometimes for some people. But beyond that you get, you get pretty minimal return and then if you're just adding more protein, you're taking away calories that could have come from from carbohydrates, which are more protein sparing and more metabolic and more anabolic. So, incidentally, you know that particular, you know, think of that group as almost walking meta-analysis, all of these people from different disciplines doing this research and coming together. When you do single study experiments on the same subject, they get the same results. It's like, oh yeah, they're right.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 44:56

About two times the RDA is kind of the max, which is somewhat surprising for bodybuilders and some athletes who can consume more protein, but for, you know, maybe the general population, that's also a step almost too far out of you know need and so maybe for them 1.25 or 1.5 times the RDA is enough. They don't have muscle building goals. Their body fat levels are never going to reach those you know dangerously catabolic levels. So yeah, I mean, even even in aging populations, where we we really do need higher protein levels and maybe three times the RDA, is helpful. It's not like we're going to die if we don't get that every single day. So depends on your goals, depends on your status metabolically. But you're, you're just, you're going to, you're going to find those answers If you're willing to do some body comp analysis. You know, get, get on a stycu or an InBody or a DEXA scan and do a little tracking over a year or two and you'll, you'll probably find what's right for you.

Philip Pape: 45:58

So you you basically answered the question about carbs from the anchor of protein, right Is what we're getting at, which is which is very interesting, because that's that's again we. We work similarly, where you start with protein and then you build the fats and carbs from there. Um, just a little more on the carbs, just so people know what are you giving up if you are lower carb while in a gaining phase? So you know what I mean If you're down at 100 or you know kind of keto world or low carb world.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 46:25

Well, once you have consumed the minimum amount of protein necessary for your goals, which would be to gain muscle, you're out of that negative energy balance. Your blood nitrogen levels are positive most of the time. Then there's a small margin to get up to maximum utilization. So here's minimum threshold. Maximum utilization isn't that high. You go a step higher and now you're taking away potential calories from carbohydrates. More protein beyond what you can use isn't more anabolic, it's not more metabolic. But the carbs that you're giving up are and I know this isn't an exact, you know replica of science, but you said you know more carbs could be five times more anabolic. They certainly are a multiplier of more anabolism, you know, because, because insulin is often the the bad guy right. But insulin is what also drives growth. It's what drives nutrients into cells, including carbohydrates, glucose into muscle cells for glycogen, which then increases the ability to synthesize protein to actually build more muscle.

Philip Pape: 47:33

Just wanted to set the record straight for all the people. And, by the way, that protein council all I could think of was like Lord of the Rings, when they're at the waterfall and they're all having the big council. Here's how much protein we need to eat, guys.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 47:45

Okay, definitive, pretty definitive.

Philip Pape: 47:47

No, for sure, For sure. It's pretty clear cut. So on the opposite end, when we're in a cut, the calorie deficits and calories have to be fairly low. How do you approach macro trade-offs, cause that's kind of what we were talking about there. For example, is there ever a case where we want to lower the protein even further to allow for more carbs or even fats?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 48:08

Possibly if you are at a level that's just needlessly high. And I'll give you a good example Sometimes it's more the endomorph. If we could use the classic phenotyping heuristic for a minute. Because somebody who's got a slower metabolism, like I, am clinically hypothyroid. I have to take levothyroxine and so forth, and so even in my younger days those TSH levels were already borderline high, subclinical hypothyroid, and that just goes into my whole family history.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 48:39

I come from a family of pretty high obesity, which the benefit of that is you just don't churn through muscle tissue Like we have a lot of muscle but we also have a lot of body fat, different than an ectomorph. So often people who think well, I need fewer calories, I'm an endomorphic body type, so I better make sure my protein is higher to sustain lean body mass. You're going to sustain more lean body mass period. So if you are inching toward a ketogenic level of dieting and you're giving up a lot of carbs, then you may struggle with binge eating and you may just be suffering and hungrier. So you may be fine with two times the RDA of protein instead of three times the RDA of protein. So stay there, give yourself the carbs so that at least you have enough to make it meal to meal comfortably. You know the whole process of lipolysis and gluconeogenesis as your body is resynthesizing. You know from lipids. You know glucose for blood sugar, for immediate energy needs.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 49:45

When you're dieting sometimes it is just kind of surviving meal to meal. It's like I am really hungry. I ate two hours ago. I've only got an hour to go. You're watching the clock and if you are really really low in carbohydrates and you're just trying to suffer through long stretches of a day, it's just arduous to the point where those are the highest categories of people who fail. Studies on ketogenic dieting shows that is the highest failure rate possible. That is the diet that creates the most binge eating disorder. So that's the reason why you just you. You cannot live that low. You can I should say you can if you have to, but it's in a space where you have the food availability. You're going to reach for the carbs when the chips are down.

Philip Pape: 50:32

I mean, if you, if I didn't have my bagel before this podcast, Joe, you'd be like this is a different person. There you go. No, I had a bagel, this morning too.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 50:38

This is a different person. There you go Now.

Philip Pape: 50:41

I had a bagel this morning too Bagels, man, so good yeah, the and I'm in a fat loss phase guys, so so keto creating the highest failure rate possible. That's good. I actually I don't think I came across that all my time bashing keto.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 50:51

So Several studies, several studies, one from Harvard, one from university of Toronto.

Philip Pape: 50:56

Okay, that that's. That's good. And then you said you know there's some of the psychological or the craving impacts of just being low carb, which is, again, important. It's not just about do you have enough for your recovery and this, and that it's also or you can even stay on your diet or you can even adhere, which is important. What about? Um, how does someone you mentioned body types how does somebody isolate or understand that, their individual response to these different macro levels? Or are we overthinking it? Am I overthinking it Like if somebody should be higher fat or should be higher carb, leaving protein aside for a second?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 51:26

You know it's interesting because a lot of people do want direct answers to questions like this, and there's been some debate over is is there even this? Is this phenotyping, even a thing is, or is it just more of a continuum? And and I think it truly is more of a continuum, and so you can kind of plot yourself along that line and just experientially see how you respond. But this is where a whole nother phase of a conversation could take us, which is experiment is necessary as a coach with a client or just somebody trying to lose weight and learn about your own physiology. You'll never know if you don't experiment. I've done entire phases of ketogenic dieting because I want to see what it's like. I've done self-vegetarian experiments two times, one for a master's thesis, because I wanted to experience that, and so I think it's really, really important to see how far you can stretch, see how you feel. Maybe do blood labs to confirm certain data points. But yeah, just some self-discovery.

Philip Pape: 52:30

Totally on board Rapid prototyping change one variable and see how it goes. I think elimination diets fall under that regime for some people who aren't sure where their trigger foods are, and I like the idea of just you'll never know otherwise. I mean even a single data point, like you'll never know if you get that fifth rep of the squat unless you just try for the fifth rep of that squat, right? So love that kind of choosing hard mentality, if you want to put it that way. Some people don't like that idea, but that's really what it is. It's just going after it and getting the data. All right.

Philip Pape: 53:02

I had so many questions for you, but I know we're getting close on time here. Metabolic adaptation I don't know we talk so much about it, but a lot of people get frustrated when their weight loss stalls and their fat loss stalls and we know that it exists, we know that it's typical for your metabolism to drop and your expenditure to drop. What are the main reasons for that? Is it just a loss of weight? Is it the hormonal response, or is there something else going on?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 53:26

It's both. But the first thing you said is most important. It's normal and your body's way more resilient than you think. So if there's one horrible, evil, absolute myth that needs to die in our diet culture is that you can break your metabolism, you can damage your metabolism, that you need to eat more to lose weight, which is completely counterintuitive and just unfactual. But people believe those things because they hear them repeated, and so you have to realize that the amount of food that it takes you to not be gaining weight just to sustain your weight is more than just the 500-calorie-a-day deficit to lose one pound a week that we think, because that gets you that first step. You go through the stored glycogen in your body, you get into lipolysis and now your body instantly starts adapting. You instantly start to reduce the level of energy that you were using to sustain your weight. So you almost have to then go through another secondary little drop in calories if you didn't account for enough in the first place. But then you're pretty, almost physiologically stoically stable for quite a while until you start reaching your metabolic set point, and then you're exactly right.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 54:46

Two things are happening. If your body weight drops by 20 pounds, the amount of energy it takes your muscular system, your cardiovascular system, to sustain. Your life is simply less. As you become healthier and your heart rate goes down, your VO2 max goes up, you're becoming more energy efficient. You require fewer calories.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 55:07

It is completely counterintuitive to what people think. If I'm lean and healthy, then I'll be a raging furnace, my metabolism will be so high. No, that's when your metabolism will be the lowest. Ever is when you're. You are your healthiest, most efficient, and guess what? That extends life. That's what longevity is when you have a slower heart rate. Slower metabolism. Metabolism is the speed at which life and and turnover is occurring. You want a slower metabolism. Trust me, you want that. But the good news is that your body adapts to that through your hunger levels. Your hypothalamus is not cuing you for more hunger if you don't need that. You know that energy. So it it's all very, very equated and you don't have to worry about it as much as you think yeah, you mentioned the being lean thinking you'll be a raging inferno.

Philip Pape: 56:02

I think it ties in a little bit with the misunderstanding of how many more calories you burn with muscle mass, cause I know people think one of the claims is just add muscle mass and you'll burn a ton more calories, and the reality is it's a little bit more. Right, it's a little bit more. But I do tell people, hey, when you have those extra bounds of muscle, you could probably walk around a little heavier and then you'll burn some more calories, kind of being that nice sweet spot of leanness but not too, not like skinny fat.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 56:28

Yeah, I mean, you and I are sitting right now having this chat, so we're probably burning 50 to 75 calories an hour and we have 70, 80 pounds of muscle on our frames. Each one extra pound of muscle how many calories do you really think per hour that gives you, as as this, you know, added metabolic machinery. It's so fractional.

Philip Pape: 56:50

I think it's six to nine to be precise, right? Something like that. Yeah, I mean yeah, If it can be as jacked as you and add 40 pounds of muscle, you know that starts to have some impact.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 57:00

Well, so there's another thing. I mean. I hate to keep adding more layers to our conversation, but the amount of muscle we gain in gross volume is next to nothing. I mean truly, when you look at pro drug-free bodybuilders and you say, okay, here, here was their, their first year of training, here's their final year of training. 20 or 30 years later they look like they've gained unbelievable amounts of muscle. And you ask them what their weight was, and it's, it's oftentimes identical. You know, I've, I've done so many. You know, you know presentations with a PowerPoint comparison showing people that, and so again, you just it's. It's the wrong end of the horse to be looking at if you're just trying to add muscle, just so you can eat more.

Philip Pape: 57:42

Totally agree, totally agree. All right, joe, we've covered the gamut. We got through pretty much all the topics I wanted to talk about, but if there's any one thing that I didn't cover, is there a question you wish I had asked? And then, if so, what would your answer be?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 57:55

I'm going to give you a more direct compliment in that your proficiency in just articulating all of these scientific principles and topics is just unbelievable. You mentioned that I get interviewed quite a bit and I am obviously very honored to be in conversation with anybody who's serious about science communication. You are phenomenal, my friend. Your exactness and your understanding and your conversational tone is so good that I literally have nothing else I could add to this conversation.

Philip Pape: 58:27

Man. Joe, I needed to hear that. That's so nice when somebody compliments you, and I'm grateful for you doing this and saying that it means a lot to me. Thank you.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 58:36

Well, I appreciate the invitation.

Philip Pape: 58:37

I appreciate the invitation. Yeah, yeah, man, I'm going to keep following you, you know, to the end of time, because you are the godfather of flexible dieting and continue to put out amazing content and, likewise, being a clear communicator, which we need more of out there with what social media looks like right now. And so those listening to the podcast, I want them to follow you and find you wherever you want them to say hello. So where would that be?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 58:59

My social media handles are always at Joe Klimczewski, and YouTube is where we really deposit most of our communication, our research reviews and podcasts.

Philip Pape: 59:14

So the Diet Doc on YouTube. The Diet Doc on YouTube and I'll put all the social media handles. Everyone, please follow, Say hello to Joe. I'm sure he'll say hi back and thanks again for coming on. I think we're going to have to do this again in the future.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 59:22

I hope so. Thank you, yeah All right, man Thanks.