Balancing Fitness Goals and Relationships

Philip Pape 0:01

If you've noticed your relationships becoming strained as you pursue your fitness goals or your partner seems distant or resentful about your dedication to training and nutrition , or even if you're struggling to balance your physical pursuits with your emotional connections , this episode is for you . Today , we're discussing the often ignored impact that pursuing fitness can have on our closest relationships , and how to prevent your path to a better body from leading to a broken connection . Whether you're meal prepping while your partner orders takeout or spending Saturday mornings at the gym instead of enjoying time together , what we're about to share will help you achieve your fitness goals while strengthening , not sacrificing , your relationships . Welcome to Wits and Weights , the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart , efficient systems to achieve your dream physique .

Philip Pape 0:59

I'm your host , philip Pape , and today we are exploring that delicate balance between fitness goals and relationship health with EJ and Tara Kerwin . Now , ej is a licensed professional counselor and Tara is a licensed marriage and family therapist , and as co-founders of the Relationship Renovation Counseling Center and hosts of the very popular Relationship Renovation podcast , go make sure to follow that . They have helped many couples work through the challenges of pursuing individual goals while maintaining strong emotional connections . Today , you'll learn how to maintain that emotional intimacy while pursuing your physique goals , how to turn potential sources of conflict into opportunities to connect , and specific tools for building a stronger relationship through your fitness journey . Ej Tara , welcome to the show .

Tarah Kerwin 1:47

Thank you so much for having us . We're very excited to be here .

EJ Kerwin 1:50

Yeah , nice to meet you , Philip . We are excited to have this conversation .

Philip Pape 1:57

And I'm going to say this as a first , guys , because we were talking before we recorded that we talk about the nuts and bolts of fitness all the time but never quite get into relationships much more than surface level . So I wanted to have you on to get into that , because I see something all the time with my nutrition clients and I hear it from listeners that , for example , one partner is tracking their macros , their meal prepping , they're using a food scale , they're training , they're changing all their habits right , and the other is at some level not that they either they're not fully on board or they're far from that behavior and there's a huge disconnect . I guess I want to start with that dynamic , the relationship dynamic in that situation , so that people listening can say , okay , I kind of fall into that bucket , and then we can talk about what couples can do about it . You can just share with us your experience with that dynamic .

EJ Kerwin 2:48

Well , I mean on the personal level . We've just seen it over . You know we've been together over a decade and both of us have had times where we've trained for marathons , you know , embarked on like personal journeys around , whether it be weight loss or toning or whatever . And how much more effective it is when we're both sort of in it together , you know it just makes it a hell of a lot easier . Like you said , if you're eating the same way and so you're meal prepping together , it makes it easier . And then we've also had times where you know there's an injury or there's just a lack of motivation from one of us and that that can not just like make it harder to achieve your goals but also create like disruption and just how we're getting along .

Tarah Kerwin 3:31

Well , and what ? The first thing I think is when EJ and I first started dating , I was a big runner and he's like Tara I hate running , so don't ever expect me to be a runner and I was like , oh , I would , I would never do that , like right . But this relationship , just like we're trying to get in shape with our body , and that's its own system . The relationship is a system and if you don't have skillful ways of making that collaborative , then people will be in it alone . And then that's what we see when couples come in and they're alone in their wellness journey .

Tarah Kerwin 4:02

Maybe one's got more motivation than the other , but they're not talking about it , they're not sharing their experiences , they're not in this place of acceptance around . Maybe I am more motivated to eat healthier this year , but this person isn't . But how can we create systems that feel cooperative , collaborative so that we can still both support each other and not judge each other to make it feel like we're in it alone ? And again , the couples we see they're in it alone . Maybe one person's really healthy and fit , the other person's not so motivated , for whatever transition timing , whatever it may be , for a myriad of reasons , and they , like , are fighting against it , like how dare you want me to change and why don't you want to be healthier and you're just like you guys ? How do we get in this together so both of you can get your needs met even though they're differently ? Like we can , this can happen . I know that's like a long answer to your no it's beautiful .

Philip Pape 4:58

There's so many gems in there . One thing you said was skillful ways of making it collaborative and making systems , and just because you have maybe slightly different goals or your different times in your life and this evolves through a relationship . I know for a fact I've been married to almost 20 years and I can tell you that we both have changed quite a bit since then , and it's cool . We both have different goals at any one point and the telling someone right off the bat this is what I like , this is what I don't right Honest communication , just so that you can get on the same page , because , who knows , maybe it is a deal breaker for , like getting married , that hey , you don't like to run , forget it , that's you don't like to climb mountains .

Philip Pape 5:37

I don't know , but it sounds like communication is obviously going to be important part of this , and also supporting each other regardless and there's going to be a lot of personal stuff for me that comes out of this conversation , which I'm sure you get that a lot where I think about .

Philip Pape 5:51

I'm huge into lifting my wife she strength trains , but she's more into cardio type stuff and we've realized that what we want to do is just support each other , whatever that means for that , and by doing that you then tend to get a little more openness on both sides to what the other is doing and curiosity , I guess I would say Absolutely . So then what happens when this goes to that level of a wide chasm ? Right , when one partner gets very serious you mentioned before we recorded a bodybuilding competitor and we talk about this show of physique development where it gets really . When you get super serious about it , it's an extreme and a lot of things fall to a lower priority . Can you do that sustainably while still being in a relationship and how does that happen ? How does that work ?

EJ Kerwin 6:38

Well , I mean , I think a number of things falls into this category , and and certainly fitness , and and then like training for serious fitness goals , definitely , and and the negative dynamic that often happens is we are , uh , adaptive creatures , you know , we , but we oftentimes adapt unintentionally , right , and so , like in this case that we were talking about earlier , we there was one member of the couple who you know , who did competition , you know where the physique competitions , and so they would go through like a two month cutting period , I think it was , and what they said was like , basically , what happens is , during that cutting period , the one partner just became a bear , you know , and was just like you know . Cause they were , they were at a calorie deficit and so their mood was deteriorated , you know they , they bordered on depression , because when you're , when you're not , when you're not feeding yourself , you can get depressed , you can get anxious , and the way they unconsciously adapted was they would just basically avoid each other for two months .

Tarah Kerwin 7:44

But the one thing that would happen is she would be alone in it every day because of the guilt she would have for like being a bear , but just would not talk about it . So he would just . He just learned , like just don't stay away , we will not have a relationship .

Tarah Kerwin 7:57

For two months We'll live together . I'll help her do the meal prep . But other than that , like but she was still alone in her suffering and he felt super alone , Like he wanted to support her and be like hey , I got you , but she had all this shame around being such a bear that she would push him away .

EJ Kerwin 8:15

And so .

Intentional Adaptation in Couples

EJ Kerwin 8:16

So our goal with couples oftentimes is like looking at okay , one's what , what are the ways that you've adapted ? Adapted without intentionality ? Okay , what didn't work about that ? All right , let's create a new system . Right , like , okay , you want to support your partner . You know you go through mood changes . Well , let's make really intentional decisions around that . And that's a big thing that we help couples overcome in multiple ways is just getting like intentional and making decisions that make sense and that keep you emotionally connected . Because what we find happens is first , like that couple , they become emotionally distant from one another because they're not checking in , but then eventually what it leads to is physical disconnection , is like they stop having sex because you know your partner might look fantastic , but if every interaction you have with them is either negative or you're just not talking to them , what are the chances your sex life is going to stay positive ?

Philip Pape 9:19

Yeah , you talked about being adaptive creatures and not doing it with intentionality , and that's that's what appeals to me . Here is again the theme that you don't have to abandon these pursuits . It's just what are you doing to make them intentional , and I suppose that there will be . That would then open up conversation to other trade-offs or compromises that both sides need to make . So , for example , if that person you were talking about the competitor , that's the woman in the relationship right , she was the competitor .

Philip Pape 9:49

Yep , and she's like look , I have to weigh all my food on a food scale every time I eat . How does that affect when they get together to eat , or do they eat separately ? Like I'm curious about the details of how that looked and how they dealt with that . You said they were having issues , but did they resolve those issues and then what did that look like ?

Tarah Kerwin 10:06

So I'm going to bleed this into another couple that I actually directly work with around this , and what would happen is he is meat potatoes kind of dude , like loves his cheese on his potatoes . She went through the six month hardcore training and food , like counting her macros , micros , all of that . And so at first , right , they came in because he was like I'm not eating that crap that you prepared , right ? So , anyway , they started having all of this conflict and I was like , okay , hold on a second , let's just get down to what are each of your needs . His need was cause she was the cooker . She cooked every meal for him . He worked nine to five job . She got off earlier so she would cook the meals .

Tarah Kerwin 10:51

So what we did is we started to come up with agreements . What was he willing to do ? What was she willing to do ? What was he willing to eat that was clean ? What was she willing to eat Maybe one day a week that wasn't so clean , because she got to have like a little cheat day , if that's what this one coach called it . And so we literally sat for a three-hour session and came up with a system every single day for this couple so that both of them would feel they were winning , so they would do a bunch of the meal prep on Sunday for both of them together , and that way they're still eating together , but they might be eating different meals . But now , even though he wasn't in it with her , she felt like , oh my gosh , he's still willing to meal prep with me on Sunday , cause I can't do all of this like two separate meals breakfast , um , lunch and dinner by myself .

Tarah Kerwin 11:42

And they like literally it was like one or two sessions and they had they not come in . I can tell you , cause we've seen this too they're in a place of resignation . This will never change . This person isn't for me . I don't want to do this anymore . And I was like I helped them be in this place of acceptance , like , look , your wife is going through this program . She's really motivated . I know it's changing your lifestyle completely . It's not forever . What are you willing to do to be in this place of acceptance instead of powerlessness

Navigating Difficult Conversations in Relationships

Tarah Kerwin 12:09

? And when you kind of use that language from like disempowered to empowered , people like , oh , it's like you don't even think about it . It's like the situation is the same , but you could either resign to it and become a victim of it , or you could be like how can I accept that this is our situation right now and how can we work together to the best of our ability to come up with agreements that feel good for both of us ?

Philip Pape 12:32

Yeah , I like the idea of the agreements , because those difficult conversations it's just what they are , I mean again speaking from personal experience and my wife is great at initiating those and I've learned to initiate them because you know , guys and women often don't approach that in different ways and it's like you get the pit of your stomach . You're dreading it all day . If you want to have this conversation , especially if you don't have the support or maybe therapist to kind of make you do it if you will for lack of a better term but then it's like many things that you dread it's . It's kind of tell me if I'm wrong , but it's almost like overblown . Once you get through it you realize that actually wasn't as big a deal , but it's going to make a massive improvement because we labeled these specific things . Like you said , we're going to agree on exactly what we want to eat and we'll know that about each other and then we're going to do the things together , even if we don't eat the same thing , right ?

Tarah Kerwin 13:22

And every single day checking in with each other . Like Dr Stan Tatkin , he's this great researcher in the field of relationships and he has this the triple P's plan predict , prepare . We can't predict everything , but we can predict a lot of things on a daily basis . And if we can plan , predict , prepare for our day every day as a couple whether that's around lifestyle , meal planning , workouts we're going to get successfully through it . But most people don't take those 10 minutes to do that . And then all of these right unconscious expectations , disappointments , self judgments , insecurities , you name it .

EJ Kerwin 13:58

Well , and it , and it , and it metastasizes right , because it starts off as just like okay , we can't talk about nutrition . You know , every time we talk about nutrition , it ends up in a fight so you , so you avoid it , you know you avoid it .

EJ Kerwin 14:14

And then and then you just start feeling more emotionally disconnected , or you or you lose confidence that you can face conflict and come out with a resolution that feels good for both people . And so there's again , there's that initial emotional disconnect . We just won't deal with it and it just starts to spread because it's like , well , if we can't talk about this and we probably can't talk about parenting , and if we can't talk about parenting probably can't talk about money . And then all of a sudden , you're , you're avoiding every and especially , like you said , men , men will just be like , well , I'm not going to bring up anything difficult , I'm just going to like can , I'm going to hide in my cave , I'm going to go do my thing and she'll do her thing . And uh , and our goal was like we bring people back and we say , hey , you have different needs , let's negotiate it , you know , let's . Let's honor each other . Let's negotiate it , you know , let's honor each other , let's find some healthy communication habits .

Tarah Kerwin 15:09

And let's figure out that you actually can solve these problems and that you're not uniquely broken and that you can get through it . It's just skills that we are not . We don't learn how to you know skillfully navigate through difficult emotions . We learn how to defend ourselves from them . So when they hear that you're not uniquely broken , we all have to learn these skills . It's not innate in us . It softens it a little .

Philip Pape 15:31

Yeah , and that makes me think that any two people on the planet , when you put them together , you're going to have , like a Venn diagram , two circles that overlap a little bit , but there's a lot that doesn't overlap and I think , if we recognize that , about even our closest spouse or partner , whoever that's the case . Something you said , aj , about the men in the conversations . I was watching Ghosts recently . You guys know that show . I think it's on Paramount . It's hilarious . Was watching a game and his wife came up and asked a question and he pauses it and he goes . Okay , this is the best part of the game . But I think this is the time when I need to pause and listen to what you have to say , Like it was the that exact dynamic of you know we're watching the game like come on , but this is important .

Tarah Kerwin 16:18

You are the most important thing to me . I really want to hear what you have to say .

EJ Kerwin 16:22

Well , that's , that's that also speaks to this idea of like uh , men are pretty trainable . We , like I've I've found , like in couples counseling , that when you're able to break down I work with a lot of like male engineers over the years who come in and their wives are like telling them like I need you to be more emotionally present . There , they come to me and they're like what is she talking about ? I have no idea what that is , president . There they come to me and they're like what is she talking about ? I have no idea what that is .

EJ Kerwin 16:46

And and you just break it down of like well , you want to have this in your relationship , which oftentimes is physical intimacy , right , well , she needs emotional intimacy , and here are things you can do that are pretty practical . When she walks in the house , you put down whatever you're doing , you walk up to her , you give her a hug and a kiss . You know it's like and and men will be like okay , yeah , you know that that's reasonable , that makes sense . But when it's veiled under things like like emotional connection or or vulnerability , there might that that isn't practical enough . You know that's not . That's not like if I do a and B , then then I get C .

Philip Pape 17:25

Yeah , and that idea , the idea of the systems and the check-ins , I think hits on that in a way where you're just you're making it this objective thing . You know , if I know I want to build muscle , I've got to train three days a week . If I know , when I have more vulnerability and emotional connection , I have to do X , Y , z , like I get that , I get that , and that's a way to appeal to some gender specific differences that folks might have , and I'm sure in your practice everyone's different in their own way , but you just have to find what that is right . Okay , so I'm curious about . We talked a little bit about the food differences . The other thing is the training and schedules and stuff like that . Going to the gym People always ask about that . Well , especially women who have kids , then they have to take care of the kids , or the provider have to get kids ready for school , the list goes on . One parent works from home and they want to go to the gym . That's a massive source of fighting that I've come across right .

Tarah Kerwin 18:21

Well , I was going to say women , biologically , just like the nurturing piece like there , are more biologically equipped to put all these other needs in front of their own , where and again , this is gender specific but men , like , they're really good at taking care of their own needs , right . And so there's this very like unconscious thing that can happen where it's like , oh , like for me , when I'm putting away laundry , like my laundry is always the last to put away , and I'm like , why is that ? Because , like , everybody else comes first . We have four kids and my husband and I didn't even think about it , but guess what I do now ? I put away my laundry first .

Tarah Kerwin 18:55

But it's that idea around like what , if , like that's happening in the relationship , I'm going to start to build resentment . But I didn't intentionally mean to do it . So it's that whole idea of checking in every single day , ej and I wake up at five , 15 in the morning . I'm like , when can I have my gym time ? When can you have your gym time ?

Tarah Kerwin 19:15

We make it happen so that both of our needs for fitness are met , because we're agreeing that both of us . It's a very important thing every day for our mental health , for our physical health , to have our gym time and today we're going to the gym at four o'clock so we had to hire a sitter to come watch over our kids so we could do that together , because we didn't have time in the morning to separate and do it . So it's just about a recognizing that needs are equally important and that you have to be able to have those conversations to say what are you needing , what am I needing and how can we make this happen realistically , right and timing and everything . That's where that plan predict , prepare comes in .

EJ Kerwin 19:57

Well , and I think we we try to use like plural pronouns when it comes to these type of things Like , instead of what , what you know , what you and I , we try to look at it as a we and that we know when we are both taking care of ourselves . We know our brain chemistry is better , we know we feel better about ourselves , we know our attraction level is better , and so it's about like like this is a shared goal , instead of getting you know which . Again , some of this is like a little evolutionary biology stuff where we're very like self-centered , like what I , I , I , you know , and we try to make it about like this is what this is a shared goal we have together . Now , it it might be separate , there might be a period of time where where I'm more in the running phase and she's , you know , more in the F45 phase or what , or whatever you know , and that we have to just like adjust it . But they're shared goals we have together .

Tarah Kerwin 20:56

And I . But and I do think the first piece of it is like recognizing that the individual needs are both equally important for the sake of the coupleship and being okay to be okay with that . Because I remember , even as a new mom , like , oh , my needs aren't important , like I'm raising humans that have to stay alive . And it actually got us in a really difficult place , which is why we created our Couples Counseling Center in the first place , because I didn't think I had any right to have needs , I mean , my everything went out the window and I lost my identity with my running and my fitness , and it felt really bad . But I just felt like , oh , this is just what we do . And we know now that , no , like you , create systems that will make sure that needs are getting met on both sides , cause that's going to feel really good for both people , and and not lose your sense of individuality within that coupleship .

Philip Pape 21:48

Yeah , I could see how the nurturing nature of women and again , these are just general statements I know we're making , but there's a lot of truth to them Both really attracts me to the opposite sex in terms of that empathy that they have , and I've learned a lot from it , being around my wife seeing that . At the same time , I could see how it would burn you out because you're putting so many things first . How can a spouse , husband , partner help a woman who does that to herself ? How can he help her , maybe prioritize herself , if that yourself , if that makes sense , I mean I love that question .

EJ Kerwin 22:22

Yeah , for me , like I had to like recognize how much easier it is for me to take care of myself .

EJ Kerwin 22:31

That that was like sort of the first step was like it took me a long time to realize like , oh , like , some of that resentment she has is like sort of well-based , and that the reality is is , is that like yeah , like I just wake up because I happen to be a morning person I just wake up and I go off to the gym and I'm gone from like five to seven , and then I swoop in and , you know , pick up the kids and take them to school , but like then Tara's left with like the rest of the day where she's trying to figure out how in the world , and clearly it's not working because she's not getting there .

EJ Kerwin 23:07

So the first thing I had to do was just realize , like you know that that like OK , like I am kind of just taking care of myself and not making room for Tara , right , and then , and then the next thing was like OK , I'm going to have to adjust . You know , like , yeah , I would love to go to the gym every morning at six and and that works for me , but it's not , it's not working for for Tara . She wants me to be around , even if she's isn't able to say it . She needs the support in the morning . So so then it's like okay , like how does this become ? Not just me take caring myself , but how does it become us creating a system ? And for us it was like , well , we wake up in the morning and we make a plan . You know , because our , our life is sort of it's different from day to day One kid has basketball on Tuesdays , but then there's gymnastics on Wednesdays .

Tarah Kerwin 24:04

And I was going to say too really

Balancing Self-Care and Relationships

Tarah Kerwin 24:06

quick now to interrupt . But we were just on this new mom's podcast and she asked a very similar question and like moms need to be taken care of too . And so partners hear that because I'm trying to be a super mom right , we had twins that had colic and I'm like nursing and not sleeping or not . But I looked like I got this . I know I haven't slept for five days , but I've got this . So EJ just feels like , oh , she's got this . She's like superwoman . That's not actually happening .

Tarah Kerwin 24:33

I did not know how to say I need help or support , Because if I say that , that means there's something wrong with me . So when EJ was like baby , your needs are so important , Like you are priority , Like him saying that to me helped normalize and validate that I don't have to be in it alone . So I feel like , yes , EJ doing his individual work , but him letting me know it's okay , you need to get your ass to the gym , Like this is really important , I was like , okay , thank you for recognizing that . It's just you're , you're seen , You're seen and you're being taken care of while you're also taking care of others .

Philip Pape 25:09

That's great yeah . Going back to plan , predict , prepare . And yeah , because I was thinking , you know , on one hand , we would all love to have our whole week planned and our month planned and like we know when we're going to work out and everything . But life doesn't work that way for everything , for food , for everything . And so , um , I was going to say , ej , just get up at three in the morning and go to the gym .

EJ Kerwin 25:27

Then right , but that's then , you get no sleep and then you're grumpy and who knows what else . Where does all levels go up and I end up with a hump on my back . And who needs that ? There you go .

Philip Pape 25:37

So something came up regarding training . It comes up a lot in my world where we lift and one partner might ask for help from the other partner , like some coaching , and there's always there's kind of a running joke like never coach your wife . That's the joke , Cause even and I've been through this personally where my wife has asked for help but I'm like I wait until she asks , Cause I don't want to , you know , I don't want to coach her , so to speak , Cause that's not our roles . Um , some people do it successfully and others find that it causes , it makes things worse . So what are your thoughts on that ?

Tarah Kerwin 26:08

Well , yeah , I , I'm interesting to hear what you say , then all yeah .

EJ Kerwin 26:12

Cool , I think , especially in our relationship , it's I think you , I think you use the Venn diagram , uh , example a while ago , like that that our roles and the aspects of our relationship have a way of polluting other ones , right , and so like , yeah , if you become your , your partner's coach , there are certain ways in which a coach treats the person they coach and there's certain ways in which a husband is a husband to his wife , and then there's certain way business owners , you know , and that's something that that we realize is like our business , our business ownership roles we're messing with our husband wife roles , husband wife roles .

EJ Kerwin 27:05

And so I think that that's the problem about having that dual relationship is , if is maybe some of the dynamics within your relationship , maybe around control , maybe around poor communication , if you're not careful , it comes into that coaching and and , and it then ends up just not being a positive experience . You know , I can think of a couple I worked with years ago who he desperately wanted to coach his wife in in , uh , on the physical side , you know , in weightlifting , and she just had no interest in it and a lot of it was the , it was the unresolved dynamics that they had in their husband and wife relationship and and so , and then he , you know , really hurt him because it was such an important thing , it was such an important part of his life and he really just wanted to share it , um , but it just wasn't going to happen , you know , and so well , because then there's that feeling of like I'm being judged or if I don't get it this right way .

Tarah Kerwin 27:56

So I mean I would say it's possible if you have very clear boundaries here's what's okay , here's what's okay , here's what's not okay . It's okay for you to tell me to go up this amount of weight . It's not okay for you to say like I can't believe you didn't just get that last rep in . I mean , I don't exactly know , but like having very clear boundaries around that role , I know each and I do that in our professional life Like here's what's okay , here's what's not okay . Like here's what's okay , here's what's not okay . So if you can have those again agreements , boundaries within that coaching dynamic . But you also say , how do we make sure that this doesn't spill over in our parenting roles or because they're uniquely defined ? So I feel like if a couple has good communication skills , is able to have clear boundaries here's what's okay , here's what's not okay I think that's like such a great gift to be able to share that together . But usually people don't have that and so it ends up being it ends up being a nightmare .

EJ Kerwin 28:52

Well , and then there's all the stuff around like body image and all that right Is like you might be the type of conversation someone you coach you might be able to have a more difficult conversation around around their body that if you have with somebody you're intimate with , they might . That might be a heck of a lot harder . Yeah .

Philip Pape 29:12

Totally different . I can't imagine if I said to my wife let's get , let's look at your progress photos and look at your uh , you know shoulder definition here , and like no way you've been slipping .

EJ Kerwin 29:21

Yeah , you're going to a separate bedroom tonight ?

Philip Pape 29:24

yeah , it's crazy , um so . So that's a good segue . Then , when we talk about body image , you mentioned one couple who , like , almost let her health get even worse because as a backlash to her husband or partner being so obsessed with his physical development . Right , do I have that right ?

EJ Kerwin 29:42

Yeah , they were , you know , and then that's within the realm of fitness , but also , sometimes it can be a way a partner protects themselves from intimacy is like is like I don't want to , I don't want to to be attractive to them , or it's the power I have of choosing to work out , not work out that , um , we can definitely use , you know , our fitness , our lack thereof , as a way to , to agitate or to keep ourselves separate from our partner .

Philip Pape 30:16

I was talking to a guy today who said you know , I'm in my fifties . I built a lot of strength . I want to lean out , but I don't want to get abs , because I know that's weird in my 50s . Like it was this concept of 20 somethings versus 30 and 40 versus 50s , and then whether you're in a relationship or not , whether you're trying to chase girls in your 20s or whatever , and I think there's a lot of maybe misaligned even understanding of what men and women find attractive . So actually the question I wanted to ask more for you , tara , is like do women I mean I know this is general , everybody's attracted to something different ? But when it comes to physique , when it comes to six pack abs , when it comes to leanness versus big fat and skinny and all that , like where do women stand on caring about that ? And like , how important should it it be ? And are men like spending way too much time doing this stuff ? I oh my gosh .

Tarah Kerwin 31:07

That's a loaded question , I know I know , I know , yeah , I mean I here's what's important for me if I see ej taking care of himself , that's important because it makes me feel like I can trust that he cares about his body , his mind , his soul for longevity . So I know that I'm not going to right . I don't have to worry about him having a heart attack or stroke or modeling unhealthy dynamics to our children . So just knowing that he cares and he takes initiative and , yeah , we fall off sometimes but we have this trust that we're , we're really . We want to be healthy . We want to have a healthy mindset . We're not rigid in it , we're very flexible . But I think we both trust each other .

Tarah Kerwin 31:54

So I don't need him to have six packs Like , is that sexy ? And yeah , but I don't . I love him for who he is , cause I know that he yeah , but I don't I love him for who he is because I know that he tries really hard to feel comfortable in his body the way it is . We also have a history . We're both eating disorder specialists , so we've worked with a lot of anorexia , bulimia , purging through exercise . So we know how important body acceptance is and positive body image , no matter what it looks like . So you're probably like talking to the wrong person when it comes to like , how important is that physical critique I think it's the biggest thing for me is like he's willing to stay healthy and strong because it's important to him and it's a value for him and it's also a value to me . So now it's shared .

Tarah Kerwin 32:40

And if it turned into six-pack abs awesome .

Philip Pape 32:44

No , that's the good hierarchy of priority . Put that at the bottom .

EJ Kerwin 32:47

start with the health I know another thing you've expressed to me , though , is when I am being more disciplined around nutrition and around fitness , that you feel then supported in your goals , and when I'm slipping , you get kind of frustrated because you don't feel supported , because then it feels like well , well , like you know , like like you don't really care , and it makes it harder for me to care , you know .

Supporting Individual Goals in Relationships

EJ Kerwin 33:15

So that comes down to with couples like do we have shared values around fitness ? Do we have shared values around nutrition ?

EJ Kerwin 33:24

And that can be a one of the big disruptors I've also seen is where two , where there's a couple who doesn't really nutrition and fitness are not important to them , and then , all of a sudden , one of them like the light goes off and , for whatever reason , they're like oh my God , I want to like , feel good in my body , and I want to like , I want to be strong and I want to look in the mirror and feel more proud of myself , and they get on like a fitness journey , and their partner's not there , you know . And then sometimes , their partner even feels like , sort of like judged by it , and almost like back to what we were talking about a few minutes ago , sort of digs their heels into their unhealthy lifestyle because they feel like , like almost like just their partner not being okay with the way they they were , that then it's a judgment on them and that that I've seen cause like major difficulties .

Philip Pape 34:19

That's a theme that comes up a lot , and not not just with couples but just all relationships . I've noticed , right when you've got a circle of friends , you all go out to the . You know you go out on the weekends , you drink a lot , you go to the game . You know you party all the time , you eat , maybe even smoke , whatever , and then all of a sudden the light goes on for one person and the rest are like trying to pull you back in , potentially unconsciously , due to this insecurity . So as far as your friend circle , it may not be as big of a I'll say deal day-to-day versus the person you're married to or living with . So what do we do about that ? What does someone do about that on both sides ? So the person who sees their spouse doing this which I suspect somebody could be listening to this podcast , curious about how they haven't really gone on that journey and maybe they got into it because of their spouse and they're not sure and then vice versa , so to me , I'm cause what I ?

Tarah Kerwin 35:10

when I'm thinking about this dynamic , it feels like codependence versus individuation in a relationship . And so and I recognize with EJ and I like , when we both fall off , like we're like , oh , I'm signing up for this fall off , and I'm signing up for this fall off too , let's totally go crazy , and then in January 2025 , we are going to get really fit . So that's a codependent piece . That actually doesn't feel really good , because now I've lost my own sense of identity within it . And so when we are talking about this dynamic , I'm like , how do we create a healthy , interdependent system where , if one has a higher motivation than the other , we don't personally react to it , but we're a cheerleader for it ?

Tarah Kerwin 35:54

And if there are insecurities coming up for me , like oh my gosh , I see like EJ's like eating potato chips and drinking whiskey every night , and and I'm like I've been to the gym three times like hey , just checking in with each other emotionally around , what is it like for you to be in this place right now and what's it like for me ? And how do you make it not about judging each other , right , because it could be that EJ is maybe going through a difficult transition and like he's kind of just zoning out for a little bit like that's okay . But if I didn't know that and I didn't talk to him about it , I'm going to be like oh gosh , this is my life in 10 years he's going to , like , you know , be that couch potato that I don't want . I mean again it's . It could go down any many different ways , but if you're talking about why it's happening , you , you , you have your sense of independence still , but also for the sake of the relationship and you're , you're really trying to avoid that enmeshment piece . Okay .

Cultivating Connection Through Curiosity

Philip Pape 36:49

Yeah .

Tarah Kerwin 36:49

And just because EJ is not working out and I am , or I'm not working out and he has , like , what is my insecurity around that ? That's growth for me . Like , why am I so triggered by that ? That must be something . Then that's my own guilt . Like , oh , I have a hard time being consistent in my life . Why is that ? Oh , because I'm a human . Okay , I'm going to have a little self-compassion here , you know , but you got to look at those triggers . Why does it bother me if someone else is being healthy and I'm not ?

EJ Kerwin 37:16

I mean , the big thing for me is just , you can't shy away from the difficult conversations , and that's a big concept that we talk about constantly on our podcast is just like if the actually taking on the difficult conversations builds connection . No-transcript . We've gotten better , you know , and so when it comes around fitness and nutrition , it's just like you just have to , you have to know that you're you're better off talking about it than not talking about it . And if Tara is feeling like a sense of discomfort with some of my habits and she knows like when I'm not taking care of myself , you know , my belly gets bigger and then eventually I don't like , I don't like it , it doesn't , it doesn't feel good , you know , and she oftentimes can see something about me before I see it . And so it has to be okay in our relationship that Tara can be like yo , look you , just , you haven't been really taking care of yourself . That , that , that , that great .

EJ Kerwin 38:46

And and I'm concerned for you because I know how you are , I know you , I know you care , um , but but what's going on ? Cause , cause it's probably not just that . I'm like F it , you know , I want to like , I just want to get you know , I just want to put on 10 pounds Like boy . That sounds fun to me . It's the yeah . It's like I'm struggling to be consistent or or stressed out or .

EJ Kerwin 39:08

I'm super stressed and I'm just not doing a good job of taking care of myself .

Tarah Kerwin 39:13

Or talking about it with your partner .

Philip Pape 39:14

Yeah so so the way Tara would bring that up is and I stay statement about her observations relative to what she knows and you know about each other . Like I noticed you , you've been stressed and not doing this thing that I know you value .

EJ Kerwin 39:27

How would that look ? I mean , if she comes into me with hey , first of all , we always talk about like , when , where , how , like , if she comes to me at the at the right time , um , and she doesn't in a time where you know there's not a bunch of kids and I'm not stressed and she does it then she comes the how is . She says like , look , honey , I'm really concerned about you . Like , cause I ? I know , like I've I've known you for years . I know how much you enjoy feeling good in your body and I know how much you enjoy when you have a goal that you're working towards .

EJ Kerwin 40:01

That's going to be so much more hearable to me than if she's like why didn't you go to the gym ? What is going on with you ? You are not doing the things that you you know . I'm like cause , what am I then ? I'm like automatically defensive . I'm like this is your problem . Like back off , like that doesn't feel good . I'm like this is your problem . Like back off , like that doesn't feel good . Yeah .

Tarah Kerwin 40:21

It's that soft curiosity and we say we're each other's blind spots , like so many times , like I don't really know what's happening for me and EJ , coming in to be curious and supportive , feels so good because we've gone really good at learning the skills to have that soft startup right . The Gottmans call it soft startup versus harsh startup , like why are you eating that cookie ? Versus like hey , honey , help me understand what's happening for you right now .

Philip Pape 40:51

Right , because there may be an emotional eating piece .

Philip Pape 40:55

Yeah . So a couple of themes stick out . I mean one is the individuation versus I think you said enmeshment or codependence , right , but then the other being curiosity , and it reminds me of something in positive psychology where there's a hierarchy of connection and the way that you respond to somebody . There's like four categories , right , and of course there's ones that everybody would say , yeah , that's not great when you respond that way . But then there's one where there's a subtle difference , one being hey , how are you , or or you know , just parroting back what they said versus what you said , tara , which is asking a follow-up , asking you know , being curious , wondering about it , because then it kind of puts it back on , you know , from the other person's perspective , and not you accusing them right now you're pushing it on them . Yeah , um , good stuff , good stuff .

Tarah Kerwin 41:40

And I was going to say really quick because under that , my concern , my curiosity , it's like I love this person and I want this person to be around forever . That's so flattering . But usually people think of it as like , oh , I'm not enough for you , oh , I'm not good enough , and it's like , actually , if I U-turned it , it's because I love you so much , I just want you to be here with me until my grandpa lived to 110 . So at least 110, . Babe , you got to surpass my papacy . But we don't share it out like that . It comes out so critical . So , yes , it's really . Yeah , thank you .

Philip Pape 42:16

I feel you . No , I know what you mean .

Allan 42:19

Hi , my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being . Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares . Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching , support and major content for us to use . He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health . He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition . Philip creates a community full of wisdom , support and camaraderie . In summary , philip Pape is the real deal . He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction . Thank you , philip .

Philip Pape 43:10

You mentioned kids before . I think there's a place to bring that in because for many people listening who have children , and not to really talk about the parenting itself , but really for the relationship with the children involved in that relationship , Given everything we've talked about , where there are differences , there is individuation . Not everything's the same in a physique competition and one's not . Or one parent thinks keto is the way to eat and the other one thinks it's like vegan . I mean , I know a couple who's one eats meat and one eats vegetables and they make it work with their kids and their kid eats both , which is just it's a little bit odd , but it works . So how do you deal with that and make sure the kids are growing up in a healthy environment ?

Tarah Kerwin 44:01

I mean , first of all , I love that because you're highlighting that every individual is unique and whatever that uniqueness to them is is a gift and a present . It's not the right way or the wrong way , but that vegan is a gift for you . That's you , and you celebrate that . So those unique differences to me , you celebrate that . And then how do you bring that together so it can combine into the family that feels good for all ? Cause now they're learning balance . They're learning respect of individual differences and uniqueness . That , and that's the thing too . Couples come in like you guys are two unique individuals . You are not the same person . You're not supposed to be thinking the same thing . And if you think that , then what does that say about you ? That like you're inferior or like it's right ? Having that conversation is like oh yeah , you're right , we are different , yeah .

EJ Kerwin 44:51

I mean , I think you want to cultivate individuality but also bring a focus to common denominators . Right , like in that couple you're talking about where one's a vegan or one's vegetarian and one's you know real meat-based diet . It sounds like right there , like , although it might look like they're diametrically opposed , the common denominator is they care about what's going into their body . You know they're making intentional choices . They're just different , intentional choices .

Philip Pape 45:26

It's a good reframe , yeah .

EJ Kerwin 45:27

Yeah , so for me , that's what I want to focus with . If that was causing that couple problems , is I want to focus on like wow , like what a wonderful thing that you both care you know so how do you support each other in the thing that is common ?

EJ Kerwin 45:40

Because wouldn't it suck if you were with somebody who didn't didn't care whatsoever , you know . So I'm looking for things value-based , mostly because , also like one , one thing that I know is like when our actions and our values don't line up , we tend to suffer more , right ? So ? So then it makes sense then that you want to support your partner in living in their value system , because then there's a higher likelihood they're going to feel good . You know they're going to feel good about how they move through the world .

Philip Pape 46:11

So let's pull on that . The values , what if ? What if a couple came together , they got married and they realize , you know , before long , they have two very different values and very important areas religion , politics , even dietary preferences , whatever I mean . It does that Can ? Can that work ? You know , we we seen like what is that ? Uh , james Carville and Mary .

EJ Kerwin 46:37

what are the two that were married , Right ?

Tarah Kerwin 46:38

I don't know , if they're still together , but yeah , I mean , this is , it's difficult

Navigating Relationship Challenges With Longitudinal Perspective

Tarah Kerwin 46:42

. And this is where , right we , from the start of the consultation , where we see a couple like we have to make sure they have one shared vision or goal for each other , but they're solvable and not solvable problems , like if you want kids or you don't problem solve and expect that that's going to shift , and so there's just this level of reality that we get couples into , like if there's not even that like a goal that you can say , like we can't see you , like that , that like no work could be done here . But I mean , for us people coming in right , it's like it's either this or we're done . There is so many shared values that they just forgot . But if there are those non-solvables , like we've had couples like right , where maybe they got together oh , I'm thinking of this one . They got together . They both didn't want children .

Tarah Kerwin 47:31

And then there was this really horrible accident that happened where one almost passed away and she realized like oh , I really want children now and he's like . And she realized like , oh , I really want children now and he's like . No , like , how did this change ? Like well , yeah , a near death accident , like , and unfortunately , like , they ended up separating cause she and right , she has a family now and children and remarried , but like it wouldn't change and she was just hoping , well , he'll just see one day , like that kids are important , or I'll just get pregnant , and then we'll just like get trapped in this and that kids are important , or I'll just get pregnant , and then we'll just like get trapped in this and it's like no Right . So they came and they did like a amical separation within the couple's yield because there was no changing each other's mind and we couldn't help of the experience that happened there . But things change and you just have to have very adult , realistic conversations because if there's not shared values , it's not happening .

Philip Pape 48:22

Okay .

Tarah Kerwin 48:22

So , I know , that's very direct .

Philip Pape 48:24

No , no , no , it's some . Some of this is going to be a little on the darker , sadder side , because that's reality and it happens . Um , it's funny . I have a client who was her big win was finally finishing her separation with her , with her , with her ex , and it allowed her to focus on herself like never before and for her .

Tarah Kerwin 48:42

That's a positive .

Philip Pape 48:42

So I mean , sometimes I have , but we're not here to talk about breaking people up . I just wanted to understand where the lines are . And I guess the other thing is physically we have impacts on our bodies and our energy levels and stuff . When we're going through some of this , when we're training or dieting or whatever , when that changes , how do you help couples maintain that intimacy physical , emotional , whatever when , like , the energy is tanking , you know ? That's another thing that comes to mind .

EJ Kerwin 49:13

I mean , I think I would put it in the context of a relationship being longitudinal , like , right that this is going to be , you're going to be with your partner for years , decades , right , and you know , especially when it comes to , I think , what you're talking about around , like you know , a , a , a period of time , you know , a training period of time is being able to keep it into perspective and be like , okay , like you know , my partner needs this support , or I need to be patient for this amount of time , um , but it's going to pass . You know , and that's like a big thing we talked to couples about . You know , cause there is like sort of for some and imply , you know , an implied agreement , but for some it's explicit , it's like in in the vows they take , in the good times , the bad right , and that , like , there are going to be times where your partners might go through a really difficult period of time . There will be , and that could be a month , it could be a year , it could be a couple of years , right , and what is your , what is your vow ? You know , what is the promise that you've made to your partner , and so if your partner goes through , like you know they go through , you know , like an injury or or you know , a really big health crisis , right , like , is there a limit ? Like , oh , they can only be sick for three months and then then I'm out , you know .

EJ Kerwin 50:37

So I would bring it sort of into that context of like , okay , let's , first of all , let's talk about it . Your partner , you know , sort of needs your support in doing this . There is going to be this negative , maybe , effect that you're going to have to deal with , but is that okay and can you trust that it will pass , that you guys will manage it , that you'll have open-hearted , kind conversations about it and that , and that eventually you know you you'll have open-hearted , kind conversations about it and that eventually you know you'll move through it together . Because that's the partner I want . You know , I want the partner that trusts I'll be there for her no matter what she goes through , and that she'll be there for me no matter what I go through .

Adapting Relationships to Fitness Changes

Philip Pape 51:16

I love that you mentioned vows and longitudinal thinking here , because that's the essence of sustainability , right Having the thought that things aren't always going to be exactly the same and the energy levels change and our needs change from one to the other . Like you said , if you get it , I mean my wife stuck with me , not stuck with me . I know she'd stick with me , but I had several surgeries over the past few years where you know I was like um needed a little more attention for a little bit . After that she was just amazing . But uh , yeah , we're going to go through those times . It's also another reason . So listen up , listeners . I just recently did a podcast episode about why you don't want to diet very often and you want to actually gain muscle and gain weight to allow you to live in that high energy state . So , when it comes to relationships and being there for the other person , just remember the least you can have to diet , the better , right , yeah ?

EJ Kerwin 52:04

Well , I mean , I can just think of like so last . So both Tara and I have , uh , enjoyed running over the years . She did . Eventually I caught the running bug , like you know , a year or two after we got together and I just , I mean , I loved it . It was just like a really neat high I'd never experienced , and seeing how it affected my body was kind of cool . And so we had fallen off the train of running and we'd been just lifting for a while . And last year we were like , let's do the San Diego marathon , let's do that , like that'll be fun to train . And we attempted to train the way we train years ago and we both got injured literally within like six weeks .

Tarah Kerwin 52:46

We did run the 5k we went .

EJ Kerwin 52:47

we went from like . We went from , like you know , running one to two miles to running like 12 , 13 , in like a four-week period , which which our bodies are not equipped to do anymore like we have to have a have to have a much less steep hill , but we got injured and we both struggled . We both struggled with that . We both sort of like it bummed us out . We could have still trained in certain ways and we just didn't . Our nutrition went offline and so it sucked , but we had , we sort of adapted our way through it . We made a compromise , we just ran the 5k instead . And now we're , a year later , looking at it and being like okay , like maybe let's do that goal again , but let's yeah , let's maybe just do the half and let's really intentionally train this time , instead of trying to train like a like you know , like somebody younger than than than who I am .

Tarah Kerwin 53:44

Be realistic of where our bodies are right now .

Philip Pape 53:47

Yes , yes , that makes sense . That makes sense . All right , as we wrap up in time , I hope you guys have a little time for a couple of rapid fire questions here I'm looking for some short , short answers , whatever comes to mind , and maybe each of you can give an answer however you want to do it sure might be hard for terry .

EJ Kerwin 54:03

Yeah , it's fine short answer short all right .

Philip Pape 54:07

So the first one is what's one thing everyone listening who's in a relationship should start doing tomorrow that they're not doing today checking in every single day about how they're feeling and a shared like intention or goal for your relationship .

Tarah Kerwin 54:22

That day it takes five minutes . I'm feeling this , this and this . My intention is to like send you some cute texts today and then we end it with a positive relationship statement , Like we can handle this shit together , whatever it might be . Right now it's the holidays , are like we got this .

Philip Pape 54:37

Nice .

Tarah Kerwin 54:38

It takes five minutes . You're on the same page , okay .

EJ Kerwin 54:40

Go . I like that one . I'll just just say yes on that , Okay .

Philip Pape 54:45

Okay , all right . If you go , wave a magic wand and make every couple understand one thing about balancing their fitness with their relationship , what would it be ?

EJ Kerwin 54:55

Things are going to change . Things are going to change Like , like your , the pattern of your life are going to is going to change . Your physical body is going to change . That you have to be adaptable and know just because one thing is working doesn't mean that same thing is going to continue to work for for a long time . Be adaptable and I can handle this and I can be flexible . Yeah , good .

Tarah Kerwin 55:17

I love flexibility . We preach that all the time , so I love that this and I can be flexible , yeah .

Philip Pape 55:21

Good , I love flexibility . We preach that all the time , so I love that . The last one is what's the most surprising thing you each have learned about each other this year ?

Tarah Kerwin 55:30

Oh , my goodness . Oh , I actually just learned it on our podcast . We recorded this morning that when I touch EJ's face with my two hands and give him a kiss , I'm the only person that's ever done it in his whole life , and it makes them feel very loved . That's sweet , like I'm going to do that more now . I had no clue .

EJ Kerwin 55:47

Well , and and I can uh go directly at fitness with this is that I didn't realize until she told me early on the year that when , when I sense her frustration with me not being as tuned into my nutrition , it's not because she's judging me , it's because she just doesn't feel supported then in her nutritional goals . I always felt judged it was that she just doesn't . She needs help . She needs help , and when I'm being steady , it's easier for her to be steady .

Philip Pape 56:20

Awesome . I want the listeners to know that even an experienced relationship , couple license and everything with a podcast is still always going to be learning about each other , right ?

EJ Kerwin 56:28

That's our whole gig right there .

Tarah Kerwin 56:30

This is why people love us .

EJ Kerwin 56:31

We're in it with you .

Philip Pape 56:32

We're in perfect , all right , cool . Is there anything you wish I had asked that we didn't cover today , in this realm that you're like ? Ah , we really wanted to address that one thing , anything you can think of .

Tarah Kerwin 56:43

I feel like this was so great that we touched on so many different avenues and aspects of relationship and wellness . So , no , not , not for me .

EJ Kerwin 56:50

Yeah , I mean , I think like if we were ever to go deeper , I think around like physical intimacy , I think that that's . That's a big thing and sort of like people they're changing bodies as they age , their fitness goals being in alignment , out of alignment , like how that affects their sexual intimacy , I think is something that could be explored deeper that's a good one .

Philip Pape 57:13

That's a good one . Yeah , you're right . That's like a whole other conversation , so I love it All right we'll leave it at that . I do want listeners to know how to get ahold of you guys . If it's not obvious , from if you're watching the video , you can see the name of their podcast , of course , Relationship Renovation Podcast . Where do you want folks to find you ?

EJ Kerwin 57:28

I mean , the easiest thing to do is just at Relationship Renovation . Type it into Google , You'll come to our website . We have in-office home programs . We're launching some coaching programs next year , you know just relationship renovation will bring you right to us All right .

Philip Pape 57:45

Awesome . This has been a pleasure . I hope the listeners got a lot from this . Again , it's we've never talked about this in this great detail , and yet it's one of the biggest roadblocks , challenges , but also opportunities to move forward when it comes to physical , mental health . So thank you so much , tara and EJ , for coming on the show .

Tarah Kerwin 58:02

And we feel grateful to be your first yes .

Philip Pape 58:06

I'm not a virgin anymore . No , sir , all right , thanks , guys . Thanks for coming on , absolutely Bye-bye .