Introduction to Wits and Weights

Philip Pape 0:01

If you've been tracking macros and following a training plan , but still struggling to see results and you're starting to wonder am I missing something or is my body just different , this episode is for you . Today , I'm talking with my client , cassandra , who successfully lost fat and built muscle at the same time after years of creeping body weight , all while eating plenty of carbs as well . You'll discover the exact system we use together to finally break through and help her achieve sustainable fat loss without extreme restrictions . Whether you're just getting started , or maybe you're feeling stuck despite doing all the right things , today's chat with Cassandra will show you what's possible when you have the right strategy and support . Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency .

Philip Pape 0:55

I'm your host , philip Pape , and today we're doing something different Instead of our usual guest interview . I am really excited to introduce you to one of my clients , cassandra . Cassandra has achieved remarkable results using the systems and strategies we talk about on this show losing significant body fat while maintaining and even building muscle and , yes , eating carbs . Most importantly , she's developed a sustainable approach that fits her lifestyle , not the other way around . Today , you're going to learn the exact process . She followed the mindset shifts that made the difference and how you can apply these lessons to your own journey . Cassandra , thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today .

Cassandra 1:35

Thanks for having me . I'm excited to chat with you .

Philip Pape 1:38

So I just want to start with a little background . We don't have to do your whole life story . I know that's not what you wanted to come on here for , but I want to understand just where you're coming from . A little bit about yourself . That and then what led you to seek nutrition coaching in the first place ?

Cassandra 1:52

Yeah , so I'm a 40 something female . I live in Florida . I have always , as my adult life , been committed to healthy living , working out , but that's been a long progress to learn about what is right for me , what changes my body . So when I came to you , I was not out of shape at all . I was doing group strength training classes . I mean actual strength training barbell . I was going to the gym on my own but I had noticed I was very slowly putting on weight , like maybe 10 pounds over about three years . It was just really slowly creeping on there . And I was listening to your podcast . I was loosely following macro factor but not seeing changes , not positive changes , and I really just needed accountability . I needed someone to help me just stay on the path , and that's when I reached out to you .

Philip Pape 2:43

Cool . So I like how you said . You know you weren't quote unquote out of shape , but the weight was creeping on . And you know I like it when people hear real stories from real people , who . It's not like you're a total beginner , you know 300 pounds overweight and like don't know what to do at all . It's that you've taken the action , you've done things , you've gotten in shape , you're going to the gym . You even started using Macrofactor listening to this show , and I encourage people to suck up the education and try things for yourself and experiment , but still something was going on and you were like I need to figure it out . So was that the biggest challenge for you then was just , you had tried different things and there was some mystery to be solved , or what do you perceive as the number one thing that you said ? No , I really have to have coaching , I really have to have that accountability . What is that ?

Cassandra 3:32

Yeah , you know I felt like I was doing things right , but I can look back and sort of pinpoint where I wasn't . You know I would eat a deficit for three days but then not for three days . And so for me , I think I just I needed the accountability . I needed someone that I knew was going to be looking at my nutrition every two weeks when you evaluate it and holding me accountable and calling me out if I didn't follow it . And for me , just knowing that I don't want to say pressure , but just someone there was really going to help me .

Philip Pape 3:59

Yeah , I think support is underrated , right ? I mean , coaches have coaches too . I've got a lot of mentors and coaches and the more I've been in this space , the more I want to immediately go and find somebody that knows more than me to help me out . So it sounds like there was frustration with even if you kind of knew the process , there was still something preventing you from really sticking to it and you're like just let me lean on someone a little bit , take off some of the , I guess , mental stress . Maybe Was there an element of that to it .

Cassandra 4:24

Oh , yeah , yeah , absolutely yeah .

Philip Pape 4:27

And then you kind of talked about what you were already trying . What do you think about ? The approach you were using wasn't working , and the way I want kind of the listener to perceive this is , let's say , they said look like Cassandra , I've done those things and I know I need to be in a calorie deficit or whatever it is , and I know they're going to work , so I'm just going to do it on my own . I hear Cassandra , but I'm not like her . You know I can do it on my own , like I want to understand where that is , because I've been there too . Like , try to do it on my own , thinking , you know I got this .

Cassandra 4:58

Yeah , so there were . Just I think there were things I wasn't doing them quite right , like I was hitting my protein and maybe the calories of my fats were really high and my carbs were really high , and this is something you called out when I started to go into the deficit . Um , you sort of called out that my carbs and fats were a little excessive . So we cut back on that and I started to see , um , a little bit of difference in my weight going down .

Philip Pape 5:24

Cool and sometimes it is the little things . It's like boom revelation on day one and as a coach , I love that because I don't want to say it makes my job easy . It more makes it . It allows the years of times of seeing this with other clients allows me to bring that to you and say , look , go through my Rolodex People know what a Rolodex is anymore . Go through your Rolodex in your head and say , okay , this is the thing that might be helpful and if it doesn't work , we go to the next strategy . It's funny you mentioned fats and carbs , because you know how people have a fear of carbs and often say , well , I think my carbs are just too high . And a lot of times you get into the data you're like , no , it's actually the fats that are too high and that's what you're missing , because you keep trying to cut carbs but somehow you keep gaining weight .

Cassandra 6:05

Yeah , and I love fat . You know I had a very high fat diet . You know I love my feta , cheese and avocado , but it hasn't been that hard to scale back . And you know we started with the maintenance phase , which I had skipped . That when I was trying to do things on my own , I didn't really think it was important and that was silly because it's very important . Own I didn't really think it was important and that was silly because it's very important . It was really helpful to learn like what my body feels like at maintenance and to also be tracking my foods and thinking , okay , well , I can cut this when I go into a deficit , I can live without that feta , and so that was really helpful for me and that was how I really learned to sort of trim the carbs and the fats once we got into that deficit phase .

Philip Pape 6:45

Yeah , and it's great to have those foods you love and like try to figure out how you get them in . You said something interesting there about maintenance . So did you say you tried to do maintenance before we worked together and like tried to shortcut it ? Or even when we started you were impatient to get through it ? What's the situation ?

Cassandra 7:06

No . So when I listened to your podcast before I worked with you , you would mention it's important to learn your maintenance and you would always start your clients at maintenance . And I never did that . As soon as I went into Macrofactor , I downloaded it . I immediately went into a deficit and I think that was the wrong thing to do , because Macrofactor needs to learn your maintenance to be able to do a deficit or add weight . And I didn't really realize that and I think I wasted a lot of time watching it adjust the figures trying to figure out where I should be . So we had us at maintenance for about a month and it was just very helpful . It taught me to be very intentional about what I was eating and just learning how my body feels on the right amount of calories , and so , yeah , I'm really glad we did that together .

Philip Pape 7:45

I love how you frame that and , yeah , I recall it took about a month together and for anyone listening , I usually recommend a month to two . But I'll tell you clients who are dedicated , like you were , who did the work and , honestly , the best coaching experience you're going to have a relationship . If you hire coaches , you've got to do the work too , and that way you're going to accelerate the process together . But a month is a reasonable amount of time . The shortest I've ever done it is maybe two weeks , and that's only because someone had already kind of been in maintenance on their own , coming into me to working with me . And then you said it's really about feeling and understanding your body , which is crucial because fat loss is a big change , it's a big stressor . It's a big change , it's a big stressor , it's a big , you know , a different variable affecting your body . It's totally unlike not being in fat loss , right ? So maybe just color for people . What does that mean ? By getting to understand ?

Cassandra 8:37

your body across all the facets that you learned during that period . Yeah , so how much energy I had was really interesting to familiarize myself with by eating a bait net , because you know when you are working with a client you ask them at every . I had was really interesting to familiarize myself with white eating and maintenance , because when you are working with a client , you ask them at every check-in how are your energy levels ? And my energy levels were awesome . I was just killing it at the gym , killing it with my lifts , and it just taught me when I'm eating right and not going over and not going under , I'm doing what my body needs . I can do really well in the gym and have energy for my day , and I think that was really important to learn . And so , comparatively , when we did go into the deficit , I did feel those energy levels drop a little bit , of course , but I knew my body well enough to sort of understand what was happening .

Philip Pape 9:21

So that brings up another interesting question about when you talk about energy and feeling this sense of , I guess , thriving during this period , because a lot of people , especially women who've been chronically dieting , almost don't know what that feels like , and so I've had clients who started the maintenance phase and then they decide they don't even want to do fat loss because they just love how it feels . Now that brings up the question did your goal sort of shift in your head , both the superficial goal of like X number of fat pounds to lose or what have you , and then the deeper goals you had . Did that shift at all ? From the time Like you first hired me , you were all excited going home Like I'm gonna lose 20 pounds or whatever , to after the maintenance phase and we started fat loss , did you have a slightly different perception of what your goal was .

Cassandra 10:04

No , not really . I definitely wanted to get that extra weight off . Yeah , so no , no for me . I had my eye on the prize .

Philip Pape 10:13

All right , fine , fine . So see , audience , that's what's called . I didn't prepare Cassandra ahead of time for any of these questions and I don't know what the answer is going to be . So , as much as I try to lead her to an uncertain answer , she was honest with that . She knew what she wanted and , honestly , working with you the whole time , I knew you were the type of client that I would love to work with , because you're ready to go , you're focused . So then that gets to our approach , because people are like well , what did she do ? I know she wanted to get fat loss and she was going to the gym and like , if you want to work with me , you should already be lifting . That's what I'm telling anybody who listens . Otherwise , listen to the podcast , listen to this case study with Cassandra and go , start lifting weights and reach out for help . But once we started working together , what were some of the big changes in your approach to nutrition and even to training ?

Cassandra 11:01

Yeah , I made a lot of changes , big and small . So I had been doing group strength training classes , as I mentioned , and then going to the gym on my own a couple times a week , but I definitely hit a plateau with that . So for me I did take on a personal trainer , which I know is not feasible for everyone , but that helped my partners and great weightlifters . So I asked him to start helping me more in the gym and that kind of pushed me outside of my comfort zone and definitely it was sore every day . I also made some smaller changes . Like I work remotely but I didn't have a standing desk . So I got a standing desk and a desk treadmill and I make myself take 10 minute breaks throughout the day to get on that treadmill and I hit my step goals that you wanted us to hit minimum 8,000 steps a day . So I was really good at that .

Cassandra 11:51

And then nutrition it's it adjusted quite a bit , especially in the deficit phase . You know I was I'm a morning workout person at

Cassandra's Story: From Frustration to Accountability

Cassandra 12:00

am and I was . I believe that I had to have a meal in my stomach before I worked out and working with you I learned to adjust my foods more strategically . So I started with the protein shake and then I worked out and I was fine and then I went on to what I call second breakfast afterwards , where I feel my body a bit better and then that kind of kept me full so I could eat lunch later and I would do a higher carb lunch and then a lighter dinner and that took a while to sort of tweak that in a way that benefited me and my schedule and my workout . But learning how to eat strategically and adjust my foods around exercise helped a ton .

Philip Pape 12:39

That's really good , because sometimes people simplify these things , like you should have protein and carbs before a workout , and I say that a lot to people who are just not eating at all . In your case , we had to listen to your body , look at your biofeedback which , by the way , every time you checked in with me , you would share okay , here's my digestion , my soreness , my energy , my sleep , et cetera , and we can kind of see okay , this is trending one way or the other , or I'm struggling with this or I'm feeling wiped out in the gym . Let's strategize over meal timing , not necessarily what you're eating or how much you're eating . It's sometimes when . You also talked about the personal training and having a partner who's into weightlifting . So , again , that's great support , which is why it's awesome when you can be with others , even if it's not an intimate partner , but a friend , a training partner , somebody you work out with to kind of push each other and have that same environment . And , by the way , again for folks listening , there's a whole spectrum of how you get support . So notice how Cassandra had a personal trainer .

Philip Pape 13:41

I have a lot of clients who have their own personal trainers . I have clients who lean on me for programming and feedback . And I have clients who are kind of in between , where they might program for themselves or I might give them a template , and then they're pretty self-sufficient and then they reach out for form checks . So it kind of depends on what you need and I think that's a great thing . And then the standing desk , the desk chart on the other side . I love that you mentioned walking , because I think when you and I started together , I definitely talked about the importance of it . I don't know how forceful I was , because now I'm even more like we've got to get your steps up , because I'm even more of an advocate of the importance for fat loss and for metabolic health . Well , like , what are your thoughts on that topic in general , about steps , oh , I'm a huge advocate of walking and getting steps .

Cassandra 14:21

You know , I used to be a runner back in my 30s and my knees really hate me now for it and I just wish I had known that . You know , walking just has so many great qualities and like I can go for a good 30 minute walk outside and just feel like I've had the best workout . I encourage everyone to do it . It's just really good . Just good for the body .

Philip Pape 14:43

A hundred percent no , and no excuses too . Right , I think anybody can find a way . I mean , you did the stand-up desk and the desk treadmill . Others might pace around on their meetings and others might have to go for walks and I know you have a dog too . That probably helps , right .

Cassandra 14:57

Yes , forces me outside , for sure .

Philip Pape 15:00

It's a great reason to have a dog . Okay , I guess another thing that comes to mind then is how did this whole thing feel ? Comes to mind then is like , how did this whole thing feel compared to what you did before Cause I know we talked before , we recorded about a lot of this is really how you felt as a person , or what you were doing , the confidence , the mindset . You know what I mean ? Just generally , how did it feel ? Did it feel more frictionless , did it ? You know , tell us about that .

Cassandra 15:25

Yeah , it felt way more frictionless . I'm a very structured person and I felt like working with you really helps me keep a structure around everything trapping my nutrition and my workouts and for me that's very motivating . I like to feel like my house is in order . When it is , I'm in order and I feel good . So , yeah , it felt really good and then when I started seeing progress , like that's just boosted my confidence and it was just awesome , awesome to see those changes . And you know , I have never done progress photos before because I don't think anyone really likes to do those , but doing them with you , I'm really glad it forced me and I could see that difference . I mean , you don't see it in yourself day to day , but when you pull a photo three months apart , it's really great to be like oh , oh , wait , yeah , there's a lot less fat there . So I appreciated that that was incorporated into our process .

Philip Pape 16:17

Yeah , it is . Interestingly , it's a very delicate subject and you know there are definitely clients who don't even want to give me the pictures to begin with and I don't pressure them because I'm like look , ultimately it is for you and you and I were talking before . We recorded that I hardly ever use before and after photos , even if they're fantastic , only because I don't think that's the message we're trying to convey is just that it's about the physical appearance , even though hey side bonus , yeah , you're going to look much better because you're healthier and you're fitter . So it's an interesting topic . Tell clients about how that experience was . How did I react ? How did I use your photos during the process ? Because it's usually pretty minimal , but maybe you can tell us .

Cassandra 16:56

It's very minimal In the feedback videos , I think twice in the past five months you actively kind of pulled up the photos and pointed out what you , the difference you saw , which I appreciate it , because you you were pointing out , like muscular growth that I , like I was more focused on , like oh yeah , my waist is trimmer , but you're like no , I can see the muscle in your arms , you know , like it just it definitely helped me to see your perspective of them . You didn't focus on them a whole lot , like you're not analyzing them every week , so people are nervous about it .

Philip Pape 17:28

Yeah , exactly Because because it's a very it's sensitive and I know people have . I mean , body image is a very personal thing . So I think I'm like , if it were me , if I ever had a coach share photos you know , I almost don't want to send the photos , but you that , that's what it is . It's not like every week . I'm like look how much skinnier or fatter you are , and look at this and that , look at your butt and your hips , and it's not like that at all . It's very simple , objective , as needed . Okay . So then , speaking of results , then what are some of the wins you got ? So we've worked together for about six months and you had a month of maintenance and then fat loss phase . Maybe just walk us through what the periodization looked like and then fat loss phase .

Cassandra 18:09

Maybe just walk us through what the periodization looked like . Yeah , so in total I'm down about 11 pounds and I get quarterly DEXA scans which , for those who don't know , you lay flat . It scans you . It's very unforgiving . You're laying flat . It sends you an outline of your body , your fat , your lean body mass , your bone .

Cassandra 18:24

My body fat decreased by 5% and my lean mass went up a little bit . So that's , that's the muscle that I've I've put on . And there's also other changes that you notice , like my resting heart rate decreased by from like 70s to upper 50s , and that's amazing . I've never had anything below 70 for resting heart rate , so that was really great to see . And my clothes fit better . I look better , I mean there's just so many changes and I want to point out that my transformation wasn't dramatic . Like 10 pounds might not sound like to a lot of people , but a lot , but for me , I was having a really hard time getting that off and I didn't have a lot of weight to lose . So for me , I was having a really hard time getting that off and I didn't have a lot of weight to lose .

Philip Pape 19:10

So for me it was uh , it was transformational , yeah , and the fact that you added muscle . I think we had a part of our conversation at one point was like you think you're good , like , in other words , you were super happy with the muscle . At that point you weren't even as concerned about losing any more fat , is that right ? I seem to recall that at one point you were like I don't know , it seemed like some sort of shift in your mindset around the body composition .

Cassandra 19:31

Yeah , yeah , I was going to say there was a mindset shift where I I really started to just become proud of the muscle that I had and it was showing and the strength I was building in the gym . And you know I'm I mentioned um , I used to do these group classes and I stepped back from those to focus on my other training . But I did go back recently and I hadn't seen my peers in a few months and someone said Cassandra is looking jacked and there was like this ripple of approvals and agreements and it just felt really good to hear that and to see that . So I think at some point , like I knew I needed to lose the fat to see the muscle . But that started to happen and I just started to feel really proud of the muscle that I was building .

Philip Pape 20:14

Yeah , I mean you were doing both at the same time , so it definitely even accelerated the process . I remember one day you sent me a photo you were doing lat , pull downs or something , a photo of your back and , by the way , I love backs in general because that's something that I personally have a decent back , or some people struggle with that and others struggle with other parts of their physique . And yeah , she's just looking jacked . You could just see the Christmas tree down her spine and her delts , and that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I comment on physique . It's just good to see the development across all of that and it was exciting because you , just out of the blue , are like look , how excited I am at this .

Philip Pape 20:47

And then the external validation . You know there's nothing wrong with that if you're not outwardly just seeking that . So the fact that you just showed up and they're like , hey , you look jagged , it's like , okay , great , you know I'm doing the right thing . So then , speaking of sets of physical , speaking of that , then the mindset , or your lifestyle . You know we try to work around your lifestyle , like with my clients , we try to work around what you're doing , even though there's change involved . So what's different both mindset and lifestyle since we started ?

Cassandra 21:20

So let's talk about lifestyle first . You know one of the areas which was a sticky point and still is challenging , as I travel for work once or twice a quarter . We also have a fifth wheel we take out , we travel personally and so learning to keep my nutrition and check while on the road was hard and we had to work through that . And I think the what we kind of agreed upon was going to maintenance when I do that and so rather than keeping in a deficit because that's really hard to do when you're eating out and buying food to go so I just kind of committed to that and looking at restaurant nutrition meals ahead of traveling and finding something that sort of fit my nutritional guidelines and getting that and just doing my best to not go out from that . So that helped a ton . But also one of the reasons I wanted to work with you is I didn't feel like I had to cut out things that I enjoy in my life . I love ice cream , I love nothing but cakes , like I don't want it to be able to eat those and I could and it's what it's not like every day . But like you know , I was still could make room for that in my life and I was still seeing weight loss . So I think that was something . I really appreciate it and also just helped me with my mindset , sort of realize like I can still enjoy my life .

Cassandra 22:38

I also pretty much cut out alcohol , which has been awesome , and you did a podcast on this but I allowed myself to start drinking diet sodas Again . I used to demonize those like I'm gonna get cancer , but I allowed myself to start drinking diet sodas Again . I used to demonize those like I'm gonna get cancer , but actually I really like diet soda and kind of like I gave that to myself and it sort of kept my sweet tooth at bay and I think

The System That Works: Strategies for Sustainable Fat Loss

Cassandra 23:00

was a good , you know , certainly better than the alcohol and helped me maintain my goals . So there was just definitely like just some lifestyle changes that I took , you know , a little bit of time to incorporate . And then mindset , that's a harder one , but I feel like once you see your body changing , you're willing to just sort of do what you need to do , to just keep going with it . You know , seeing those changes helped a ton and just helped me really commit to our program .

Philip Pape 23:31

I hope everybody takes that message in right now , because we've talked about the answer to motivation is not discipline and willpower , it's taking action and getting a result and then you get motivated . It's like a flywheel , and I see it over and over and over again and I feel really bad for folks who don't take that step , or if they take the step , maybe it's the wrong step or they don't have the support or education and even the things you just listed off guarding travel and alcohol and diet soda and everything and that it took you a little time to incorporate it . Those are all key messages here , because you took a little step here , a little step here , literally more steps , another step over here , and they just sort of built on themselves in a I don't want to say easy cause . It took effort , but like a totally doable way , even when you're in fat loss .

Philip Pape 24:20

And what I don't want this podcast to be is like let's go through every single strategy that Cassandra used so that you can use it too . Through every single strategy that Cassandra used so that you can use it too . It's the principles of , you know , making it work around your lifestyle . So I really love that and I always like to ask this because you've learned a lot . You probably learned even more than you realize . You've learned , right , if you just like , sat down and wrote it out . But I always like this thought experiment If you went back to yourself before we got started , what would you tell that person ? That would even accelerate it further .

Cassandra 24:52

Um , that's a good one .

Philip Pape 24:56

And you can even go back further in time if that makes it easier .

Cassandra 25:00

I don't know . I think I would tell her to just not be afraid to um , tweak things and adjust things and be what she needed to do to reach her goals . I mean , I definitely was forced to do that with you . I force sounds like a bad thing , but it's not like I . Just you really challenged me to sort of think about things differently and it really helped me achieve my goals . So that would probably be my suggestion to her six months ago .

Philip Pape 25:26

That's great , yeah , and I know you did that , so I guess what she would be doing is doing it even faster and quicker and sooner , maybe .

Heather 25:33

Hello , my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace .

Heather 25:37

Just six days after I started this cut , my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana , turkey .

Heather 25:44

As I tried to process the stress and trauma , my first instinct was to say , oh , you've been through something hard , this is not a good time . But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day , and not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body , but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months . Here I am on the other side of eight weeks , got my kids through all the things that we have been through , and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did , and I got a new PR on my bench press . I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish , but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful . Thank you , philip .

Philip Pape 26:33

There's something called a forcing function , right In math or engineering or whatever I always pull these things out of my butt where they use the word force can be a positive and what you're talking about in that something that didn't exist , now it exists . It's a force , it's a push right , it's like Newton's , whatever law . It's like you can't help but be like pushed along . It's like somebody's here pushing you can't . No , no , no , no , no , okay , no , I'm going to do it . And then , combined with all this tracking and everything , okay , oh , I know what I want to ask you . Speaking of the tracking , you said you're a structured person and appreciated that . What if somebody's listening and says I'm not that kind of person , I'm kind of willy-nilly , I don't like data , I don't like to weigh myself . I'm just curious what your thoughts are . Could this process work for them , or do you think it's like a certain type of person needs to work with a certain type of coach ?

Cassandra 27:20

I think I'm someone who loves the data and entering things so much it's hard for me to understand people who might not be natural to that .

Cassandra 27:28

You know , I would really encourage them to just commit themselves to tracking for maybe a week and get it like a sense and make sure that they understand , like what three ounces of meat looks like or what 80 grams of raspberries looks like , and then you know , like maybe they could sort of not track , but I I just think that it's just such a benefit and hold you so accountable and it's really eyeopening . Um and calories out of very quickly and if you're not tracking those , it's really , really easy to go over .

Philip Pape 27:58

So you're saying it's easier to track and have confidence in what you're doing and know what you're doing than to not track and just be totally lost . Yes , kind of what you're saying , yeah .

Cassandra 28:08

And also the tracking . It doesn't take a lot of time out of your day . So every morning when I make my protein shake and I pull out macro factor and I add in what I think I'm going to eat for the day and it takes me two minutes and macro factor is really good at like following your algorithm of food , I guess , and suggesting what you think you're going to put in at that time . It's usually right at the top . I mean , it takes me two minutes and then , as I make the meal , I weigh it Again . It takes me five seconds and I just adjust it and it's there . I know some people just aren't inclined to that , but it really is very simple .

Philip Pape 28:48

And it's just a habit that you have to make for yourself . Yeah , totally agree . I think you just got to do it . That was your advice is like just try it out , because you might be . You know , people say that they don't like something until they do it , and then whoa , I used to be that way , just about macros in general . Like I tried it years ago , the app was terrible , so it was slow , too much friction , I didn't know what to do with the number , I didn't know even what my targets were , and so of course it didn't work . But if it works for you and you get the result , then you'll see how amazing something like that could be . So , all right , is there anything else about like nutrition science or , let's say , your metabolism or maybe something specific to women that could be helpful ? Somebody listening that you learned through this process ? I don't . I'm not trying to lead you to any specific answer , just you know how we track your expenditure and we talk about stress and things like anything come to mind .

Cassandra 29:35

Can we talk about weight trends ?

Philip Pape 29:37

Sure , let's do it . One of my favorite topics .

Cassandra 29:40

Yes , you again .

Cassandra 29:41

You did a podcast on this .

Cassandra 29:42

But , um , you know , I think for people , especially women , the number on the scale carries so much weight and it took me a while to understand that the weight trend is far more important than what's on the scale day to day .

Cassandra 29:57

And you know , when we're working with you , we weigh in every day , tracking a macro factor , and there are some days where I would get really frustrated by what I saw on the scale and I would pull up macro factor and look at the weight trend and there's a light purple line in the background that I think is your actual weight and that thing is all over the place . It's up , down , up down . But then the weight trend the solid dark purple line was always going down , always . So even during those periods where I was plateauing and just feeling really frustrated , I'd look at macro factor and it would sort of be my little ally encouraging me because that weight trend was always going down and it just takes time and over time you get there . So that helped me in sort of not putting so much value on the scale weight every day .

Philip Pape 30:46

A lot of people need to hear that they really do . And that principle applies to lots of data points , right ? Because you go to the gym one day and your lifts aren't quite what they are normally , you don't just give up and say like that's a reflection

Shifting Mindsets: Embracing Maintenance Before Cutting

Philip Pape 31:00

of your entire training program , it's just quote , unquote bad day . It's not even a bad day . It's a day that you learn from Same thing the . You know your calorie level . Like did I ever get on you for like being 50 calories off or even hundreds of calories off If you had a bad week ? I never hopefully never berated you for that . It was more of here's data , right .

Cassandra 31:18

Yeah , no , exactly . I mean sometimes you say , oh , a couple of days where you were a little high , but um , it's . You know , I never felt bad about it . I always felt comfortable . Communicating with you of , like , I had to travel or work was very stressful and I just kind of dress ate a little bit . I always felt very comfortable in our check-ins putting that in , so you sort of knew what was going on in my life and I never felt judged at all . I always felt comfortable yeah .

Philip Pape 31:46

Yeah , and Cassandra's talking about the times when I like numbers attract me . So when I look at the data , I'll see like highs and lows and I'll highlight them . Sometimes I use yellow or maybe red . I like in my head , try to avoid red because it looks like bad and I don't mean to say that , but I'd be like , yeah , here we have some outliers , let's talk about what might've happened . And you know , go look on those days and see what happened and there's data for you . So , all right , you know results wise , a lot of mindset stuff , physique improvement , you're stronger , you lost fat . Where are we now and what's next for you ? And we could even use this as a little bit of coaching on air , if you want . Where do we want to go next ?

Cassandra 32:22

Yeah , so I had a very stressful travel week last week , and while I tried to eat at maintenance it was a little over . Normally the scale is a little high and then it kind of , just you know , goes right back down and it hasn't done that yet , and so I feel like we should still be in a deficit for a little bit longer . But kind of once I get to a range where I'm feeling really good , I think the focus for me is going to be muscle building . You talked about doing something like a I can't remember what you called it like a light gain or something like that Lean gain . Yes , that's it . Maybe going into that next .

Philip Pape 32:57

Yeah , and just so folks know what Cassandra's talking about , for me , a lean gain is still meaningful gain . It's not like if you Google lean gain right now and say I want to see what she's talking about , you're going to see a lot of conflicting advice , just like you will with everything when you Google it , and maybe you're not even fully aware , cassandra , what I would recommend to you . But it's like you're going to gain some pounds back . You know what I mean . You're going to gain some pounds back over a six or nine month period , but a lot of that's going to be muscle and for hit it hard , you're going to experience a level of ability to push like you've never had before . I can't even explain it to you until you get there . But all this stuff you're talking about using the results to give you motivation there's a whole world you haven't experienced . I'm so excited for you and I only say that because I personally , every time I go through a bulk , relearn or learn again the potential that the human body has , and I think it accelerates when you're not only well-fed but super well-fed , like when you are in that surplus .

Philip Pape 33:54

Most people listening are like what do you mean ? I'm just going to gain weight and get fat . That's the opposite of what we're talking about . We're talking about training three , four , five days a week , really hard , on a structured program , and you're feeding your body all the fuel it needs and then some . So I like your approach , since you have had a whole mentally healthy approach on the fat loss and you know how to do it . Another few pounds for the psychology of it . But also , when you stop , you know you're going to bump back up and I know you told this to me yourself in a check-in . You're going to probably pop up like maybe three pounds or something where I don't know . I think you're sitting at like 127 now or something . Right , I hope you don't mind that I said that . And so let's say you get down to 125 , you'll pop back up to maybe 128 once you go back to maintenance , because of the fluid , which also scares a lot of people when they're not in control of this process , because it feels like I'm getting all the weight back right . So don't be afraid of that .

Philip Pape 34:49

And then , just like before fat loss , we normalize at maintenance before muscle gain , and that's more just to let the numbers even out so that you don't over undershoot during a muscle gain , or else you get really frustrated initially and then really it's just step on the pedal for at least six months at . For you , cassandra , I'd probably recommend I'm going to say 0.3% or 0.4% body weight a week , so we don't have to do the math on air , but like whatever that comes out to be times , 26 weeks is that six months ? I guess you're probably going to look at like around the 10 pound mark , which sounds insane because you just lost almost that much , but well over half of that should be muscle Right . And then then you cut five or 10 pounds and you'll be sitting five pounds heavier than you are right now and all of that's muscle right . So all that muscle that's popping out all over on you right now , it's just going to be more of that is what it's going to happen . How does that sound ?

Cassandra 35:51

Yeah , no , that sounds , that sounds good yeah .

Philip Pape 35:54

Okay , yeah , yeah , we can map that out . But I mean , do you have any thoughts or fears or like questions about gaining ?

Cassandra 36:00

I mean , you know , some of the non-scale wins is just like being able to fit into clothes that I haven't been able to fit into and button up pants that didn't button up , and so I don't know , if we do that , am I not going to be able to fit in those clothes for a while and then it goes back down , or like how that impacts my you know size , I guess .

Philip Pape 36:21

So the honest answers ? I don't know , because it's going to depend on how your body responds to the measurements that affect your clothes . And why I say it that way is you know , you're not going to gain as much fat as you had . You're going to gain a percentage of the weight as fat , but you might gain it all in your midsection , where somebody else gains it somewhere else . Do you know what I'm saying ? Yeah , so the distribution , the chances are . However , you won't , and what will happen is you're it almost feel like your muscles outpacing your fat and then you'll get to a point where you might feel a little uncomfortable or like it's starting to push into that old pant size a little bit . But you'll have been measuring your waist the whole time and you'll kind of know that . But , like , the waist size will creep up , but also the muscle size will creep up . And it's this fine dance Don't throw away your old clothes . But this is dance don't throw away your old clothes . But this is also why I generally prefer doing bulks through the winter months .

Philip Pape 37:14

So we should talk about an advanced strategy where maybe you just hold on to all your progress through the summer and just have fun during beach season at your lean weight and then go for the bulk . There's different ways to do it . Nothing's going to change visually for the first couple months . You know how it goes . Just like with fat loss . It takes a while and then it'll start to all of a sudden happen and for some people , cassandra , really , they can go quite a while on a gain , because what happens is the muscle that they're adding almost makes up for the fat , in that it gets distributed more aesthetically and also kind of pushes out your skin and fat . You know it kind of just pushes it out . You have a little more surface area to use , so it doesn't actually look fat and it's almost healthier to have that little extra layer of fat too . So , but

Understanding Body Composition and Progress

Philip Pape 38:00

a lot of interesting things about the process that you're going to learn .

Philip Pape 38:03

Okay , all right . So last thing to wrap this up I know there's some people watching who are in the same spot you were a few months ago . Maybe they even have a lot more progress to go . Maybe they're not training consistently yet , whatever , and they're struggling in some way . Maybe it's a loose fat . Maybe they've tried macros and it hasn't worked for them . What would you say to them , like if they're on the fence about what to do . What would you say to them ?

Cassandra 38:25

what to do . What would you say to them ?

Philip Pape 38:27

Well , I'd tell them to hire you as a coach .

Cassandra 38:36

Sure , I appreciate that . Yeah , no , it's helped to have someone else being a second set of eyes in your life . I mean , we talked about the accountability , but you know , I've spent a lot of time the past 10 years or so learning about nutrition and weightlifting and I still learned so much more in my process with you that really helped me achieve my goals . And I think it just if it's really important to you to dial it in having a coach to help you is essential and it's an investment , but it's an investment in yourself , your health , your future , so I would encourage them to do that .

Philip Pape 39:05

Awesome , awesome , awesome . So you heard it from Cassandra and , by the way , we have multiple ways to support people , all the way from free things like our Facebook group , through lower budget , all the way to one-on-one coaching . So I'm not trying to exclude people if you need the help , so keep that in mind . Is there anything you wish I'd asked or a topic you wanted to bring up that I didn't bring up ?

Cassandra 39:25

Just on what you said . You know you have a Facebook group . That's really good . I don't post in there a lot , but I'm really impressed by sort of the quality of the questions and the posts . So for people who might not be ready to hire a coach , I'd say start there . That's where I started before I decided to hire you as a coach and it definitely influenced my decision to go with you and I also learned a lot from that group as well . So that's my final thought . I think we've kind of covered most everything that I've learned . It's been a really great process .

Philip Pape 39:56

Well , it's been amazing talking to you . If anybody wants to reach out to you , since you're in the Facebook group , they should just join the Facebook group and then they'll find you in there . We'll include a link to that in the show notes . And also , I was thinking the other way . I don't think you and I took advantage . Did you do the free call with me beginning , I forget ? Are you just like signed up ?

Cassandra 40:13

No , I emailed you and then we , we went and we just took off because you're ready , you're ready .

Philip Pape 40:17

But if you're hesitant , you're listening . I do do a like a 15 minute call all the time with folks , and that's not a sales pitch , that's and again , you didn't experience that , but it's a lot like 15 minutes of this conversation we just had basically just chatting about what your goals are and then what the next steps . Anyway , thank you again for sharing your story . I really appreciate you doing this , cassandra . I hope people are super inspired about what they can achieve and I'm really excited to see what's next for you .

Cassandra 40:41

Well , thank you for having me . It's been such a fun process the past five months and it was really great to chat with you about it .

Philip Pape 40:48

You're an amazing client , Cassandra An amazing person as well . Thanks for coming on .

Cassandra 40:54

Thank you so much .