Body Recomp at Maintenance Explained

Philip Pape 0:01

If you are daunted by the thought of force-feeding yourself to bulk for muscle , but fear gaining fat or aggressively dieting to cut for fat loss , this episode will give you a new perspective . The question we're asking is can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time , without gaining or losing weight , but instead by eating at or maintenance calories to achieve the holy grail of body recomposition ? My guest and I will break down what's possible and how to adjust your diet and training , and you'll learn about the realities of body recomp at maintenance and how to create an environment to get the results you want . Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency . I'm your host , philip Pape , and today I've got something special lined up with my friend , jeff Hain , host of the Mind Muscle Connection podcast . Jeff and I decided to tackle body recomposition , which is your ability to build muscle and lose fat at the same time , but from two different angles , on our two shows . So today , on Wits and Weights , you're going to hear us focus on the maintenance approach . Can you transform your body without drastically changing your calorie intake ? And if you enjoy this conversation , make sure and follow Jeff's podcast Again , the Mind Muscle Connection , where I jump on as a guest to discuss body recomp , but using slight surpluses and deficits rather than maintenance .

Philip Pape 1:43

Now , if you guys don't know Jeff , he's been on the show a few times . We've collaborated for a long time . He's a great guy , a really honorable authentic fitness professional out there , and he's helped lots of clients probably hundreds , probably thousands at this point transform their bodies with evidence-based methods . His knowledge in body recomp has made him kind of a go-to expert for people looking to do this . So that's why I thought this would be valuable for you guys . So I want you to listen carefully today to learn what you can and cannot do at maintenance to maximize your results , regardless of your experience level . All right , jeff , thank you for coming on again and welcome to the show . Let's get into it .

Jeff Hoehn 2:18

Yeah , man , I'm looking forward to chatting about this and having both of these angles here .

Philip Pape 2:28

I think it will be super uh interesting for the , for the listener . Yeah , we were joking , as we prepared for this , that , um , maybe we're going to disappoint people because everyone wants the holy grail body recomp . And you hear , like a lot of marketing around this like , yeah , just build muscle , lose fat at the same time . Um , I even hear some of the big names like , um , uh , holly baxter , you know she's actually gonna be on the show man , if , if you can believe it , holly Baxter is big into like let's just stay near maintenance and you can build a ton of muscle and lose fat . So what I want to address first is , like , what does the science say behind that ? In general , can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time ? And then we can get into like , who and what situations can work at maintenance or not work .

Jeff Hoehn 3:03

Yeah , yeah . So , like you said , you know , it's kind of a misconception , right , that that you can't , you know , do both at the same time . And you , and you certainly can , Um , you know , and the research does back this up . I know there was a study from Bearcat a couple of years ago and they looked at advanced , you know , people that had been training for a little while and they were able to gain muscle and lose body fat , right , you know , there's kind of that misconception that you need to if you want to build muscle , you need to be in this like large surplus to do that .

Jeff Hoehn 3:28

And again , we'll , I'm sure , throughout this we'll , we'll dive into the specifics of where that might be , you know , feasible at and where that makes the most sense . But you know , a lot , of a lot of people have I tell people this a lot of people have a lot larger of a runway to do this than they , than they think . Um , you know , I think a lot of people just say , oh , you know , I've been training for a couple of years , I can't do it . But , um , again , as I'm sure we'll get into , there's a lot of things that go into it that people are not maximizing , um , where they're going to be able to . You know , see this , this simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain , Um , but again , it is that kind of holy grail is going to depend . It's going to be in the right situation and I think our inputs are going to be super important as well in that process .

Philip Pape 4:10

Yeah . So I really want to get right to the what you probably hear and I hear as well People that haven't gone through this before , haven't cut , haven't bulked , maybe aren't even attracting their nutrition and they're like I don't want to gain a bunch of weight because I'm going to get fat and I don't want to have to diet because that sounds miserable and I've tried it before . I really want to gain like 15 , 20 pounds of muscle and I want to do it at maintenance , like is that even possible ? And again , we can break down from there , like the situations and scenarios behind it .

Jeff Hoehn 4:37

Yeah , so I think so . So let's , because I kind of , before we talked about this , we kind of had an outline planned out when we were talking about you know , my approach was we were going to talk about the maintenance side of things and you said , you know , lose fat and build muscle . I'm like I kind of said , hey , I didn't want to ruin that episode right away by just saying , hey , being at maintenance , the downside with being at maintenance is you're probably not , probably you're not going to really lose any amount of body fat when you're truly at your maintenance . You know calories and again , we can talk about what exactly maintenance calories is , but that's going to be the one downside . However , you the question you specifically asked was hey , I want to gain , you know , say , 15 to 20 pounds of muscle . Can I do that at maintenance ? And I believe you can totally do that at maintenance calories right now and saying that this is where it gets a little confusing . But you know , if you're gaining tissue and again , via , via muscle , you are going to you probably see your body weight trend up .

Jeff Hoehn 5:28

So it's going to get a little confusing in terms of , like you may not actually keep your exact same body weight , right . So that's where things can get a little bit kind of confusing . If you're just looking at numbers and based off of of body weight , Right . But if we're talking specifically , hey , you're at maintenance calories and you don't want to gain a ton of body fat , you can certainly do that , um , and again , I I'll go into this . But I guess the thing that you could do , though and this is where maybe some people get confused is you know you could theoretically lose by , like your body fat percentage could decrease by kind of taking this approach , right , um , because , again , you're increasing your , your lean body mass , um , and you know , again , if your weight's not really trending up a ton , you know you may see your , your body fat percentage decrease a bit here , uh , in this process . So I don't know if I answered your specific question on that , but you did and you , you hit the nuance on the head right there .

Philip Pape 6:17

There are a couple different subtle scenarios near maintenance , one of which you just said is you can build

Who Benefits Most from Maintenance Approach

Philip Pape 6:24

muscle , you may even gain weight , you're kind of at maintenance or slightly above , but your body recomp is changing without losing fat necessarily . But your , you know your body fat percentage goes down . It's just numbers . If you have more muscle as a percentage of your body , you have lower body fat percentage and that is recomp . So I think people need to understand that . But you also said that you can't like lose meaningful fat in terms of just pounds of fat , unless you're in a deficit , which is a whole different situation . So when people understand that if they have like 20 or 30 pounds to lose fat , is it the most efficient approach ? And this leads me to the question of who is it right for , who can benefit , who should waste the time at maintenance let's call it when they should be in a deficit , versus those who would like really maximize the results this way ?

Jeff Hoehn 7:08

Yeah . So , like you said , I mean , you're not going to get , you know , you're not going to have this crazy amount of of body fat loss here at this , right . So to me , who would benefit the most from this ? Well , this is going to be somebody who maybe you're quote , unquote skinny fat or you've , like , done a ton of diets in the past and you've just always focused on like weight loss in the past . And you just always focused on like weight loss in the past , right , and ? And usually that approach is going to lead to somebody not really ever focusing on like hypertrophy style training . It was usually , you know , the the kind of avatar I'm thinking of as someone who , like , cuts out all their carbs , go super low calorie , just does a ton of cardio , right , and again , that's probably not going to be great from a muscle , lean body mass standpoint . So I think that person who's like yo-yoed in the past and always focused on just weight loss and like just being their small self , that's somebody who I think could benefit from being around their maintenance calories and really focusing on on adding muscle in that process , right , you're not actively trying to see your body weight go down . Maybe it comes up a little bit , but you're again like we said . You're , you're decreasing your body fat percentage and , um , again you're kind of getting rid of that . That skinny fat , look right . So that's one person that I think would benefit the most from that .

Jeff Hoehn 8:13

And then another person that would benefit would be someone who , again , muscle is . You want to add a ton of muscle , but you're also not necessarily as lean as you want to be yet , right . And so again , this kind of comes around to someone who's again always kind of fat loss dieted , or maybe you just don't want a fat loss diet right now , right . And again , adding more muscle is super important to you .

Jeff Hoehn 8:36

To me , that's going to be someone who is going to benefit a ton from being at , you know , their maintenance calories and trying to , um , just focus on , on , on that . And again , you're not like super lean either , right , cause the leaner you are , the tougher this is going to be . To build muscle at maintenance , you're going to have to , you know , have a little bit of body fat on your body . So I think , really long story it's going to be most beneficial for someone who's dieted a ton in the past . You aren't super lean , but you aren't . Uh , yeah , you're not super lean , but you also maybe aren't necessarily like super overweight either . Because again , in that situation you probably would be better off kind of going at the approach , you know , more of a fat loss kind of a style approach there .

Philip Pape 9:12

uh , with that , yeah , it makes sense and again it always comes out to . It depends on what's your training history , what's your dieting history , what is your goal right now ? Cause I I'm sure you've met lots of guys who have a little extra fat and they're not ready for fat loss . So what ? Here's an interesting thing I've seen come up lately , jeff , and I wasn't really aware of it so much more than like a year and a half ago .

Philip Pape 9:36

But there are definitely a lot of influencers and some very respected guys out there who lift a lot , who will say you never really need to gain a lot of weight or be in a surplus . You could always be . You could always be in a little bit of a maintenance plus mode , you know , like just just riding just above maintenance and feeding yourself every day , never falling into a deficit , really , and you can get tremendous results , and then you don't have to worry about gaining a bunch of fat . But then we have , like Helms et al right , the , the , the study that came out was it last year that showed we could actually go more aggressively than we thought and not gain fat . So what are , what is your thoughts on maintenance being kind of this Holy grail for building muscle when it's like just above maintenance . You know what I mean .

Jeff Hoehn 10:17

Yeah Well , again , I mean , the key is going to be you're going to , you know you're going to limit , you know body fat gain in that process . But again , if you're like on the leaner side and you already have a good amount of muscle , again that's probably not going to be the right approach for you . You're probably going to need to be in a small surplus . Um , and again , if you really want to build a ton of muscle , right , like I think that that's another person that , like you're going to probably need to be in a small surplus . But most people don't necessarily want to be bodybuilder style , you know , uh , muscle size , right . So , like for them , to me it makes a little bit more sense to not have to be in this surplus , to then , you know , kind of have to cut it all off later on , right , I just feel like people do a lot of kind of yo-yoing , uh , with that uh approach , right . And again , the big thing being like what we do in that process is super important , like maximizing our training , right , that so it's geared towards hypertrophy , you know , setting up your lifestyle so that you're in a good spot to add muscle , right . And then you know , same thing with nutrition , like making sure those things are dialed in . You know , the more we can get all those things dialed in , the more likely you're going to be able to ensure that you're going to build muscle without , you know , gaining body fat and really not needing as big of a surplus or needing one at all . So again , I think it really comes down to our methods and what we do . That's going to be the biggest thing .

Jeff Hoehn 11:32

What I see happen a lot of times is people will think that the magic is gaining weight and like that's where , that's where they spend all their time is like just trying to see their scale weight go up . Hey , I'm in a surplus , so I'm just or I'm in a building phase , I want to try to add muscle , so I just want to see my scale weight go up and that , like is this the main thing that they focus on in that process ? And they kind of overlook the inputs which ultimately , are going to really be the most important thing to tell your body to add , you know , lean body mass in that process . So hopefully that answers your question there . But that's like the big thing that we're looking at there with that is really your inputs are going to be the big thing , um , and then again , the more muscle you want to build and the leaner you are and the more muscle you have , we're going to have to shift to , you know , being in a surplus .

Jeff Hoehn 12:13

And I always tell people this too at the end of the day , when we look at the three energy balances that we can be in and when it comes to muscle growth , the best is going to be a small surplus at the end of the day , right ? If you want to absolutely maximize muscle growth , you know . If you want to absolutely maximize muscle growth , you know a small

Training and Nutrition Priorities

Jeff Hoehn 12:27

surplus is going to be the best in most situations . Second , maintenance is going to be right . There Again , you can still build a ton , a good amount of muscle around your maintenance calories . And then three , a deficit . Right , the larger the deficit , the less likely this is going to be to happen . No-transcript building muscle .

Philip Pape 12:56

Yeah , and you pointed out that the training variables absolutely at or near the top right . Like we hear it over and over again , people focusing too much on , maybe , protein and they're not even training hard Like that . That's my problem nowadays is I've talked to people who say , look , I want to lose fat or I want to improve my body composition , I'm not worried about the training part . Tell me about the nutrition . I'm like no , no , they go together and if anything , you need to be training and then the food will follow . So we we've kind of put into buckets the type of person or the scenario you're in where you would find success from body recomp , near maintenance . It sounds like definitely , if you're maybe leaner . If you don't , um , or or no , if you're leaner , you need to build potentially more aggressively . But people have just a little bit of fat to lose or not worried about like massive fat loss . Um , training is important . Progressive overload , you know , protein , all that stuff .

Philip Pape 13:46

What are the top one or two , I guess , problems people have when they do try to do that Like is it they accidentally fall into diets all the time ? Or some lack of consistency , because maintenance you talked about it on my show a long time ago . It can be its own challenge just trying to stay in that realm . So what kind of tracking , what kind of precision , what kind of problems do people have with doing this ? Yeah , so you're basically saying , like , what kind of precision , what kind of problems do people have ?

Jeff Hoehn 14:09

with doing this . Yeah , so you're basically saying like , hey , someone is they want to try to maximize building muscle here around maintenance . Like what are the big problems that people end up kind of running themselves into to not maximize this ?

Philip Pape 14:19

You got it , yep .

Jeff Hoehn 14:20

Yeah , I mean , like you said , the big thing being the not dialing in your nutrition in terms of , like you said , under eating , potentially meal timing being a big one , right , where you know people maybe are skipping meals , maybe they have some days where they're higher calorie because they go out and eat , have you know , they have events , or maybe they just don't really care about focusing on their nutrition on that day , um , and then they have . Then they see their scale go up a little bit and now they you know they're they're like , oh boy , I got to make up for that now , and now I got to go low calorie , right , and so that is the . The trick here with being around maintenance is it does give you a little bit less wiggle room in terms of , like you know you really want to try how often you're skipping meals and like dipping into large deficits , because that is going to be something that can large deficits in the short term , because that is going to be something that over time , is going to impact your ability to add muscle and , you know , not overall body composition . So I guess it would be having unstructured nutrition days where they're either too high or too low , and again one or two here , and they're not going to make or break , but the more often those happen , that's going to lead to suboptimal body composition , uh , in the long run .

Jeff Hoehn 15:27

And then again , meal timing , like you said , skipping meals , um , not having meals around your training sessions , uh , you know , that's one thing that I think people often overlook is the importance of meal timing around their workouts . Uh , especially in this , when we're trying to do what we're doing here , where we want to add muscle without really adding much body fat , your training is going to be super important , and so we want to make sure we set that up in the best way possible . So , again , whether that be making sure that you you know however you like to structure your meals around your workouts , but making sure you're well-fueled going into your training so you have the best training possible , making sure you're well hydrated going into your training , right .

Philip Pape 16:03

Define that , jeff ? Define that for people , jeff , just so they know that maybe keto is not the answer here , I don't know . Tell me .

Jeff Hoehn 16:08

What do you mean ? What about hydration ?

Philip Pape 16:11

Fueling yourself before your workouts ?

Jeff Hoehn 16:12

Yeah , so , just again , making sure that you're not going into your training like not having eaten for three , five plus hours . Or again , making sure you do get some carbohydrate intake , uh , around your workout , right , um , just again , making sure that we're not just again not going in to it to where you're hungry , and then that's going to impact your , your , your training performance , um , there , right Cause , again , that's going to be something that in the short term maybe you don't really notice it , but over time you take someone who times that , has really good meal timing , around their workouts compared to someone who is just lax around it . Over a year , I guarantee you the person who is on top of their meal timing is going to see much better progress from a body composition standpoint because they're going to set themselves up from a to have good training sessions , which ultimately is the most important thing to send that signal to build muscle . Um , and then also like not getting protein around your workouts either , right , whether that be ? Hey , maybe you like to go work out when you first wake up , that's fine . Um , so again , after that , make sure you get some protein in at least around your sometime around your workout . Same thing there . You put someone who nails that versus someone who doesn't .

Jeff Hoehn 17:13

The person who nails their protein around , their workout , to me , is going to have better results . You know , when you expand out , uh , their hydration , again , even a small amount of dehydration which you can't even really notice , can potentially impact performance . So , again , we want to make sure what we're hydrated , uh , there , right . So from a nutrition perspective , those are the big things . And then , obviously , like you said , you know training is super important . But if we're not on top of our like protein , and when I mean protein , like overall intake and even timing , to an extent I think you're going to uh potentially impact your , your , your muscle gain , um , and therefore your body composition over the long run .

Philip Pape 17:50

Yeah , and , by the way , you guys , if you're listening , if you don't follow Jeff's show , follow it , because he he constantly goes into these details and like what to do under different scenarios . So we're not , we're not going to like dive into how much protein you need and all that fun stuff today , even though we both could do it for hours . What I really want the listener to understand is is this right for me ? Two more things come to mind in that context .

Philip Pape 18:12

One is how do you track this in a way that still motivates you ? Because I could see you , especially if you have a new client . Do you ever get a new client that comes to you and it's like you know , I want a better body and I want to just like be a maintenance . I mean , that to me doesn't sound sexy or like something anybody would ever say , um , so like , is this a ? Is this the best protocol for someone who's just doing it for the first time ? Because I could see a lack of motivation from a feeling like a lack of direction . How do you address that ?

Jeff Hoehn 18:38

Yeah

Tracking Progress Beyond the Scale

Jeff Hoehn 18:39

. So you know , again , I think it is important to see where , where the client is at and what they want to do when they when they come in . Right , because , again , if somebody is super like , again , knowing what the client wants I think is super important , right . So , again , like this if somebody is like , hey , ultimately I want to lose body fat , and we look at their history and they and they haven't dieted recently , okay , well , hey , maybe we are going to push you into a small like a deficit is going to be something that's probably going to be better for you now . But let's say , somebody wants to add muscle and like this is what they want to do that . And we look at their body composition . I'm like , hey , we could sit here and we can put you into a surplus and have you gain weight , but do I think that's going to be the best for your long term body composition ? Because I think if we just focus on scale weight , that's where you're going to kind of get yourself caught up and think that you're just kind of not making progress . So it's looking at other aspects , right , and what I mean by that is , yes , you know , progress , pictures , measurements , but again , even those probably aren't going to be like this drastic change , you know , in a two , three month span , just by what we're doing here with this approach , right , so it's more so like hey , you know , training performance , like tracking that , seeing that improve , like kind of you know , connecting the dots there with the training performance . Also how they feel as well , too , right , like that's something that I'm consistently like trying to check in with clients on of like , how do you feel ? Like , if you're feeling better , you're feeling strong , you just feel more flexibility , you have more energy from day to day , uh , whatever that is for the person , better libido , whatever it is like those are things that we're really going to hone in on , because I feel , like , at maintenance , you can really dial those things in . Um , so , really kind of connecting the dots there , uh , to show them improvement from that perspective , I think is is , uh , it's huge .

Jeff Hoehn 20:20

And then again , if you take blood , like if you get your blood work checked , you know , looking at that , um , you know , those are the things that I always try to connect to , like looking at those things versus just scale weight and then explaining to them hey , if we can nail this down to where you know , we can get your habits in place here .

Jeff Hoehn 20:36

Um , get your lifestyle habits in place . Um , you're getting stronger , you're adding some muscle . Like this is going to set you up for more effective and efficient fat loss . When we , when we get there , um , or maybe you don't even need to do that , maybe you decide like you love this and you feel soup , like your , your body composition continues to improve and then maybe you feel like you don't ever really need to fat loss diet . Or maybe you do this and then now it's like it makes fat loss um something that you just do for a very short amount of time throughout the year , just to kind of clean things up a little bit , versus like being in this endless yo-yoing where , like every time you get into fitness , you only focus on dropping weight , don't really build any habits , and then you and then it's just this kind of vicious cycle on there . So connecting the dots there with that , I think , is super important too .

Philip Pape 21:17

For sure , and you , you talked about kind of this magic of maintenance when you were on the show before that . It can be used as a tool in in before you ever diet , you know just to dial things in after you've gone through fat loss to sustain . Now we're talking about using it strategically to potentially improve your body recomp long-term as a mode to be in .

Philip Pape 21:35

It's hard for me to understand , Jeff , because I just so love change and like constantly seeing things happen and but some people are totally cool with it . Some people are like I don't want the , maybe the fatigue of constantly trying to add more or reduce more . So when we do talk about staying in maintenance and not looking at the scale , there still is a scale component in that maintenance , by definition , is staying right here in this like narrow range . How do people do that in terms of using the scale , or do they ? Are there situations where they don't even need to ? Because if , if you weigh yourself today and then six months from now you're roughly the same , hey , you're kind of at maintenance , right , I don't know what are your thoughts on that .

Jeff Hoehn 22:14

I personally , like I try to get everyone to use the scale just as a as a tool , and like try to educate them around it , right ? So , like , cause I do get some people are like , oh , you know , I just stopped using the scale Cause it gets in my head . It's like , well , I want to work on that because we need to like figure that out . This is just data at the end of the day , right , so I like to make sure somebody takes , you know , their , their scale weight there , cause I just think that , again , it's a great way to kind of learn what's actually going on , because , at the end of the day , we do need to take that , because that's going to tell us the energy balance that we are in , uh in , in that process , right , so I think it's super important as far as , like , what , what I'm looking for on the scale . Again , this is , as I've said , with everything so far , it's going to be very context dependent on the person , but you know what I mean by that is , if you just got done with the fat loss phase and now we transition you to your maintenance calories , you're going to see this kind of weird stabilization of your scale weight . So that's just all kind of noise , in my opinion , right . So there's that . But from there , biggest thing I'm looking for is just not seeing any trends in a short amount of time , to me as maintenance , right . And so what I mean by that is if we're consistently seeing , when we look at your average weight for the week and we see it trending either up or down , that you're in either a surplus or a small deficit , and then from there it's like , well , you know , if we're finding that , hey , you're feeling good , your body composition is really changing , maybe we can kind of continue on that trend , no-transcript plus or minus , and then again , over time , maybe it is drifting in .

Jeff Hoehn 23:57

So just for example , um , my , my last fat loss phase ended in uh 20 , the end of 2023 ish , like October ish timeframe . I was one 55 , spent the next couple of months purposely gaining a little bit of weight , you know , letting things kind of stabilize a little bit , uh , and then from there I gained up to about one 62 and then really over the last like 60 ish weeks . You know it's been between one 63 and one 66 and it's kind of slowly trended up that way . Now somebody could be like you know it's been between 163 and 166 and it's kind of slowly trended up that way . Now somebody could be like , well , dude , you're in a small surplus , but really it , to me it's . It's maintained , really over time , right , so we're talking maintenance is not going to be this exact number of like oh hey , you're 166.6 . Now , you're going to stay there every single time you go in . Right , you may see it trend one way or the other , just a little bit , but it's those short-term trends that we just don't want to see there .

Philip Pape 24:45

This is a very important point , Jeff , I think for people , because if you're thinking of maintenance as literally an exact number all the time , you could be setting yourself up for failure because you could be dipping into deficits . And I don't know about you . When I think body recomp , I rarely think of it as a very tiny deficit , Like . To me that's kind of inefficient , right , Because your body will adapt and keep you at maintenance , but then now you're not eating as much as you could , so you're just never quite fully recovered and you're not really losing fat either . So

Finding Your True Maintenance

Philip Pape 25:15

is what you're saying is maybe the best , maybe one of the best or efficient approach is to kind of be a little bit on top , like almost have that upward drift , because three to six pounds in a year or two , it really is nothing . And and and frankly , if you're going to build muscle and that's a denser tissue , like you said earlier , you're probably going to want to have a little extra weight anyway . Is that ? Is that where the thinking is ?

Jeff Hoehn 25:35

Yeah , pretty much too Right , Like artificially low maintenance , like this artificially low maintenance calories , where their their body's adapted to that and now you know , they don't feel as good , right , their body's just not thriving at that point . So what I suggest is at that point , hey , you're going to increase your calories a little bit and you may see your weight again kind of stabilize a little bit , but you're feeling good . And then you know , again , we're not necessarily trying to push weight up , but if it turns up a little bit over say a three , six , 12 month span , as long as you're feeling good , body composition still looks good . You know , based on all the things that we're tracking , performance is good . I'm not , I'm not concerned about your weight , not like coming up , you know , a couple of pounds , right ? So again somebody could argue of like , oh , hey , that's not maintenance , then that's a , that's still technically . You're not trying to push scale weight up every single time you weigh in or over multiple weeks , right ? For ?

Philip Pape 26:37

sure , especially when the goal is body recomp . The goal isn't to be at maintenance , that's just a route to get there right .

Jeff Hoehn 26:44

Really , at the end of the day , what we're trying to do here is we're just trying to fuel your body enough , okay , to make sure that you're giving it the micronutrients it needs . Um , you know , when we're at maintenance , everything just flows much better , right ? When you're giving your body enough fuel , uh in in in that process , right ? So , again , libido is going to be in the best uh position . Um , there , uh , again , you're going to feel your best here , uh , in this right , bio , your , your uh blood work and everything should be in a good spot . As long as , again , as long as we are continuing to do all these things outside of , like , like the sleep stress , solid nutrition , um , training , right .

Jeff Hoehn 27:19

I always tell people , just because your scale weights , if your scale weight isn't trending down and you want it to , but you're doing all those things , you're going to see a different body composition over time , um , by by doing those things , right .

Jeff Hoehn 27:38

So I always try to frame it as that . And again , our body needs this , this period of time , to be around these , these calories , and my whole thing on this is if somebody , let's say somebody , they they do this fat loss , they do muscle gain , but they still have some body fat they need to lose . This is the perfect position for you to be for , say , six , nine

Lifestyle Factors for Successful Recomposition

Jeff Hoehn 27:50

months out of the year , because you're putting your body in the best position to to feel good where it's at , you're continuing to build your habits . Um , and you know , that beats somebody who still has body fat to lose and they're . They're losing body fat , but then they try and go into a large surplus and gain weight . Um , over time , right , but again , not to confuse people , it's okay If you see your weight come up a little bit during that period of time . The key is to just not try to push it continuously going up , right , that's where people gain body fat and that's where I think people get themselves stuck long-term in that process .

Philip Pape 28:19

For sure , yeah , unless you're doing it on purpose , right , like I just gained 15 , 17 pounds and it's like , and I got to pay for it by fat loss , dieting the other way . But so just very specific tip for folks then , if they're working with a coach who gives them a target , or they're using a tracking app and they have a target , that where they think their maintenance calories are at this point , um , do you recommend slightly overshooting on a daily basis ? Is there a , like , a mental strategy you recommend to make sure you're in the right spot ?

Jeff Hoehn 28:44

Yeah , this again , I hate to say this , but it's going to depend on the client , right , like again , if they are super , like , if they're a little bit on the leaner side , they really want to maximize muscle growth , I'm going to say , hey , it's okay If you go a little bit over , right ?

Jeff Hoehn 28:57

If someone is maybe a little bit more , um , uh , I don't know the word I'm kind of looking for here they , they , they really want to be careful with gaining body fat mentally . You know I can just tell , right , but we're going to pair that with their biofeedback and everything like that , and I want to , I want to see how they're feeling there and then obviously again continuing to monitor their , uh , their body composition , because that's going to , to me , that's going to be the the biggest indicator , because I think where you want to be careful with is people are very good at under reporting their , their caloric intake , right . So this is where it comes into like , okay , in theory , in theory , in a perfect world , maybe we do kind of have them push slightly above what their quote , unquote , maintenance calories are , whatever , whatever that is for that person . But in practice , this is where , like you kind of , I like to rely on like , okay , here's what I've seen . I know that people tend to underestimate their caloric intake . Let's , maybe you can be a little bit lower than that , right .

Philip Pape 29:52

No , no , I agree . Like different yeah , Different people have different mental framing around targets and , and you know , like some people want to hit the target right on Cause they're kind of robotic about it , like you know , I love hitting my targets Others always have to be in one direction or else they feel like they fail every day . Not that we want to have them in that mental state , but it depends . Like you said , it depends . So , um , we , we covered a lot of the go ahead .

Jeff Hoehn 30:15

Well , I was just gonna say , hopefully that gives somebody an idea of like , hey , where you know you're kind of at , that gives you a better idea of where you should , should kind of focus on . And then again , looking at your trends , where's that trending at over time , if you're slightly seeing your body weight trend down , someone who pushes it a little bit higher , um as well to there .

Philip Pape 30:32

So this is why I like to talk to guys like you , jeff , because we all have slightly nuanced takes on this . Like I would probably fall in the trap on my podcast of saying just always go over a little bit if you're trying to be a maintenance , cause I've seen too many people diet under . But then I recall the clients who need to be careful because they're they're trying to avoid gaining too much . So again , whatever resonates with you , you got to go with that . Is there any last tip or pitfall that we didn't cover related to body recomp at maintenance you want listeners to know about .

Jeff Hoehn 31:02

Yep . So , again , like I said , I just think people tend to overly focus on , hey , surplus , gaining weight , losing weight , when we need to focus on the training stimulus that we're sending , because that , ultimately , is going to be the most important . People overlooked that just because you're training doesn't necessarily mean you're doing that in the most efficient way . There again , nutrition obviously not only calories and macros , but like quality of food that you're bringing in , making sure you get enough protein . And then the couple that I see people commonly overlook are going to be their lifestyle . They're again setting up their environment right , whether that , again , that's your relationships , that's your environment in terms of your work , what you , you know , what you're around all the time .

Jeff Hoehn 31:39

Sleep is a huge one as well , too , and not only , hey , just get eight hours of sleep , but sleep quality , like making sure we're setting ourselves up for good sleep , and you can kind of put in your circadian health and circadian rhythm into that .

Jeff Hoehn 31:49

And then and then stress management , right , and stress management being not only , oh , hey , I had a stressful day at work , but again thinking about all the stress that we're putting on our body , uh , and thinking about it from that standpoint and balancing that out to where . Hey , you know we want to have a good balance of parasympathetic , sympathetic inputs and making sure we're balancing that out and we're not letting it get too far on , say , the sympathetic side of things , right ? So , again , that's going to look different for everybody what that is , but figuring out what you're doing to your body , that's adding stress , and trying to bring that down , those are going to be things I think people often overlook and can make the world of a difference and really allow you to get more out of every calorie that you put into your body . Um , it's probably the best way I could . I could put that .

Philip Pape 32:28

Yeah , it's a great way to put it because smart , efficient , you know doing it the right way . Otherwise you're kind of wasting time , um , and you've got some really good content on this . I know you do these workshops occasionally , these free workshops on body recomp , that kind of go through the big pillars . So if you guys are interested in learning more , definitely reach out to jeff . And if you enjoyed this conversation where we talked about body recomp at maintenance , um , as I mentioned earlier , we recorded a companion episode right now in Jeff's feed the mind muscle connection . Go follow the show , download it , listen to it . That's why we're keeping these a little bit shorter .

Philip Pape 33:00

Today , where I interviewed Jeff about , or no , where he interviews me , I get confused about using , um , what we're calling a near maintenance approach . So that's more . When you want to step the gas , step on the gas pedal , go maybe a little more aggressive , but still get body recomp , as opposed to necessarily going all out in one direction , and we're going to get deep into that there . So click the link in the show notes or go search the mind muscle connection on your favorite podcast app . Check it out . And Jeff , thanks , as always , man , for collaborating and coming on the show .

Jeff Hoehn 33:30

Yep , this is super fun dude .