Women's Muscle-Building Struggles

Philip Pape 0:01

If you're a woman who's been grinding away at the gym for months or even years with minimal muscle growth to show for it , you might be wondering if it's your genetics , age or even hormones . You've tried increasing protein , lifting heavier and following programs designed by top coaches , yet the results remain frustratingly slow . What if I told you the problem isn't your effort or your genetics , but rather the training principles themselves ? Today , world champion bodybuilder and nutrition expert Holly Baxter joins me to reveal the science-backed strategies that actually work for women's unique muscle building needs . You'll discover why the fitness industry is confusing all of us , the real truth about hormones and muscle growth and how to break through those stubborn plateaus , even with less time in the gym . Listen up if you want to finally build that strong , aesthetic physique you've been wanting .

Philip Pape 0:56

Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency . I'm your host , philip Pape , and today we get into the science of optimizing training for women with the incredible Holly Baxter . Holly is an accredited practicing dietitian with over 13 years of experience in nutrition and training . She's a two-time world champion in the natural fitness division , ifbb Bikini Pro . Author , educator and creator of Be A Fit , an innovative new fitness app with lots of science-backed workout programs and hundreds of macro-friendly recipes . And today you're gonna learn about training strategies that work specifically with the female physiology , the truth about things like hormones , muscle development , how to avoid mistakes that keep women from achieving their muscle building goals . From the very best who's done it herself and worked with lots of women like you . We're going to get into recovery tracking , nutrition and more . Holly , it is so good to have you on the show .

Holly Baxter 1:55

Thank you so much for having me . I'm very excited to be here .

Philip Pape 1:58

So let's just jump right into it . You know a lot of women are trying to build muscle , trying to develop the physique . But a lot of women are trying to build muscle , trying to develop the physique . They might see you on social media , follow you , and perhaps they've been doing some of the right things . Let's say , maybe they've gotten some of their habits dialed in . They listen to this show , they follow you , they know some of the basics of training and nutrition . Even then , what would you say is the biggest factor that holds most ?

Holly Baxter 2:24

women back from their muscle building potential . Oh , I think this is a very clear , distinct winner . I would say their inability or unwillingness to commit to a muscle building phase .

Philip Pape 2:35

Okay , that's a good one .

Holly Baxter 2:36

I think most women tend to be ready to go in terms of fat loss , which I can fully , you know , can go and I get behind . I think you know there's a time and a place for that , but to their own detriment . I think a lot of folks will pursue fat loss over the extremely important muscle building phase that's going to allow them to actually make progress , you know , in the future .

Philip Pape 2:57

Yeah . So that's good because I know you probably talk about fat loss a lot . It comes up and nutrition and we talk people's ears off about that . But I've tried to get that message out and I feel like someone yourself , being a woman having a certain experience in the past I know gone through disordered eating and you know the whole physique competition journey that you can very much relate to the fears as to why they don't want to do that . You know , is it really the gaining weight and the getting bulky ? Is there something deeper than that ? What is your thought on that ?

Holly Baxter 3:28

I think there's unfortunately just low confidence and a lot of negative body image . You know , for a lot of females that I work with and I think , because I've been so open and just transparent about my experiences over the last decade , you know , in the bodybuilding sphere , I think people have felt a little bit more comfortable kind of opening up and sharing their own struggles , and I mean it's been a really long and challenging journey for me too . I'd say I wouldn't have been able to work through that myself without professional help . So , speaking to my eating disorders , so I'd say from about age 15 through to age 25 , I struggled with an eating disorder . I had bulimia and binge eating disorder and I think for the longest time I spent all my efforts , all my mental energy , all my physical energy , like doing the things that I was really good at , which was training like a Trojan and putting in the work like in a physical sense . But I kind of lacked accountability and didn't the work like in a physical sense . But I kind of lacked accountability and didn't take any responsibility for my psychological state and I think that I just assumed that I could outwork it and you know it was a sad and false reality that I carried , and it wasn't really until I started working with a psychologist to kind of work through that and , you know , provide some pushback and challenge that negative narrative that I held for myself , did I then finally start to make progress in a healthy way . So I think that women do need to take some responsibility in improving how they view themselves , and it is a really huge obstacle to overcome .

Holly Baxter 5:00

But I think if you're intentional about it , if you do the work , if you do the reading and find somebody that you know can support you through that , there is a wonderful existence on the other side that still affords you to make , you know , improvements to your body composition , but you also still feel so much better about yourself as a person .

Holly Baxter 5:18

You know , I think I used to , you know , put so much value and weight into physical appearances and I never , you know , put so much value and weight into physical appearances and I never , you know , gave myself enough credit for the other qualities and characteristics

Overcoming Body Image Issues

Holly Baxter 5:29

that just make me a good person until I started focusing on those things and really shifting my perspective about how I viewed myself . I was in the same boat , but I think that's a really important component of getting to where you want to be with your physical body , but I also think , lack of knowledge and understanding about how our bodies and our biology works . So I think , through you know , lack of nutrition , education and understanding . That , too , is also another big thing that holds a lot of people back in making progress . And there is so much misinformation available on social media . I think it's really a hard time to know what's truthful and what's , you know , complete nonsense . So you know , finding the right professionals to kind of help you navigate through that is a critical piece in this too .

Philip Pape 6:21

I totally agree . I mean , that's why I started this podcast , following individuals like you and trying to learn as much as possible and know that physiology is , there's science to it and there's experience and anecdote as well . But at the end of the day , you also have to discover what works for you individually based on that , and it is a whole process . I love how you said a wonderful existence on the other side , you know , hitting right into identity , and you said you know the qualities that make you a good person . That hits part of me as well , because you could get so hung up in the outcome and the physical side that you don't address the psychology , which then makes the outcome very much easier to attain , almost like a side bonus .

Philip Pape 7:02

You know , unless you're talking about physique competition where you have to really dial it up to that next level . So we're talking about women , but like and I'm a man , so enlighten me here but are there differences that we really do need to pay attention to versus those we don't ? And what I mean by that is there's principles , right , there are training principles , there's nutrition principles , physiology that is kind of the same no matter who you are , and it has to be individualized regardless . What would you say for women specifically ? Are the things that they need to pay attention to beyond that , that makes sense .

Holly Baxter 7:34

Yeah , so I think

Physiological Differences Between Sexes

Holly Baxter 7:35

in terms of like muscle , like physiology and muscle growth , I actually have an entire chapter on sex differences in my book actually , which talks and plays into this , probably a lot more in depth than what I will cover today . But I think first and foremost we do need to identify that there are some baseline physiological differences between men and women . So men do tend to have a greater total amount of skeletal muscle mass compared to women , and that has been observed in a number of different research studies . So one that springs to mind was by Albey and colleagues , and I think there's another one by Gallagher and colleagues , and they used a combination of DEXA and MRI , which MRI is the gold standard for measuring muscle cross-sectional area . So in those research investigations it does clearly show that men have more skeletal muscle , but it tends to be disproportionately greater in the upper body . So men will have somewhere between 30 to 60% more muscle in their upper body compared to women . But if we then look at the female's physique , we tend to carry a greater amount of our muscle mass thankfully , in my opinion , in our lower bodies , and you know that kind of checks out amount of our muscle mass , thankfully , in my opinion in our lower bodies and you know that kind of checks out I think you know I can observe that in myself . I'm sure we observe that in ourselves and the clients that we work with . So to me that doesn't really come as any kind of surprise . But you know , does that actually interfere or have any influence on our ability to build muscle ? No , and there doesn't really seem to be any differences in response to different training stimulus either , you know , between men and women , which is great . We're kind of all on an even playing field .

Holly Baxter 9:15

So if we take a look at , like some of the research generally , what we would expect to see in terms of like muscle growth adaptations in response to , like a resistance training program and usually most of the studies that we look at are somewhere between eight to 12 weeks in duration and the norm or the average change in muscle thickness as measured by what's usually B-mode ultrasound . That's one that's most commonly used in exercise science because it's a little bit more affordable . It's a lot more difficult to get your hands on an MRI and the cost goes up astronomically with those types of measurement tools . But 0.2 to 0.3 centimetres would be a typical like muscle thickness increase over that timeframe Now as a percentage or relative change we might anticipate , you know , muscle growth being somewhere in the realm of like 6 to to 10% over that time frame . Now if we were to look at males' data , we might see males increasing by 0.4 , say , of a centimeter , so we're doing 4 millimeters over that time span , whereas a female you might see a response of 0.2 , for instance . But if we look at that relative change or that percentage increase in muscle thickness , they're not statistically different , they're basically the same . So that's great . It means that regardless of whether you're a man or a woman , if you do your resistance training , if you train hard , we all have the same potential to build muscle .

Holly Baxter 10:44

But there is one area that I will say women might actually have a slight advantage , and I say might for a couple of reasons . So a lot of the research that looks at this particular outcome has been done in isometric exercise , which is basically where you contract your muscle and you go to failure or to exhaustion , but you're not taking it through a full range of motion . So that type of training , what we would typically do in the gym , is called isotonic training . So in this isometric literature it does seem to indicate that women might be slightly more fatigue resistance resistance rather and that might be in part due to , like , our hormonal differences . So women tend to have more estrogen than males and that can help with vasodilation and nutrient delivery . But women also tend to have more capillarization too . So I guess the benefits for that would mean that women have slightly better muscle perfusion , which is essentially better blood flow delivery to our muscle and therefore also better clearance of some of those metabolic byproducts that accumulate within our muscle when we do a working set . So I guess the benefits with having more capillarization and maybe more , you know , more estrogen than our male counterparts is that we probably have .

Holly Baxter 12:07

And again , this is not consistent in the isotonic research , but it is consistent in the isometric research is that we might be better at recovering between sets and thus we might also be better at responding to short rest periods . And I think this is really important because I know so many of us ladies are always extremely busy , are always rushed , and you want to be able to do something efficiently . So potentially being able to call upon short rest periods for resistance training , or at least be able to do it better than males again , in some studies might actually be a bit of an advantage . So , short of those things , there aren't really any other differences that I can think of . From a biological standpoint , that would mean women don't have the same potential to build muscle as men .

Holly Baxter 13:02

And before I forget , there is one another area as well . I remember seeing a paper I think it was by Weston colleagues Don't quote me on the year , but it was a few years ago and they were looking at muscle protein synthetic response rates in response to , like an acute resistance training session and despite some pretty significant differences in their hormone levels after that bout of exercise I think they were looking at testosterone and a handful of others . There were some appreciable differences in testosterone response but despite those hormonal differences between the men and the females in this study , the muscle protein synthesis was actually very similar

Women's Fatigue Resistance Advantage

Holly Baxter 13:41

. It remained elevated between men and women . So I think this is all really good news .

Philip Pape 13:48

Yeah , and that last one . It just makes you realize how complex physiology is . Right . You can't simplify to just testosterone if one sex has just leagues more of this particular hormone and it doesn't make a difference Incredible . So just to recap , women have a lower baseline muscle mass , which makes sense . We know that women have higher body fat and there's biological reasons for that , but can build at the same rate and ostensibly forever . Right , there's really no age limit . You keep building muscle . And then the fatigue resistant aspect . That is fascinating . I know what you're talking about , where we kind of don't know and there's several mechanisms we're trying to understand . But the idea that you could have more efficient workouts is cool . What about the recovery between sessions ? Is that affected as well , for like volume and frequency ?

Holly Baxter 14:34

I probably haven't done as much reading in that area specifically , but I mean , if I were to speculate , I think there's probably always going to be like a certain amount of recoverable training volume and I think that we can probably adapt to increasing training volumes over time too . So you know , when someone's first starting out , if they're a beginner , I would have to speculate that initially if you did a certain amount of training volume you'd probably find that you didn't recover very well from that that stimulus . But the more you do it there's that general adaptation , neurological adaptations you're better able to handle that volume moving forward . Sorry , I don't know that . I've seen any specific studies that compare training response or recovery times . But yeah , I honestly don't know the answer to that .

Philip Pape 15:26

How much do we know , holly , other than just get in the gym train and figure it out ? But yes , it's funny because volume and intensity get a lot of play , and especially on the podcast , and there's a lot of confusion . And even from personal experience , I just did a what would you what you would call a volume based program , where you're progressing to build your base with lots and lots of sets , but highly submaximal . So there's multiple training variables involved and that's where it gets confusing . More volume could be recovered , more recoverable than less , if you're at a like a lower load , for example . That's just what comes to mind .

Philip Pape 15:58

What about peri and post menopause ? A very hot niche in like marketing and the fitness industry and like go other than the Ozepic crowd , right , uh , the the GLP one crowd , it's , you know so many . I don't want to say excuses , but like a lot of the marketing is around . Everything is changing your life now because of the hormonal differences and so you've got to have specific training . You got a specific diet , specific this . What are your thoughts on that in general ? But then where are the legitimate changes ? Where a woman who you know her estrogen has dropped , her gesturons dropped , she needs to consider the changes that come along with that .

Holly Baxter 16:31

Yeah , I think I'll probably start off with a disclaimer . So I haven't personally published any research in menopausal or postmenopausal females . All of the work that I've been involved in are in young individuals that are still menstruating , or males , of course , as well . So from what I have read , I mean unfortunately there is not a lot of data at the moment in that particular study population . I know it's becoming more and more popular and I'm really excited to see you know where that line of research goes .

Holly Baxter 17:01

I think Dr Stu Phillips has been doing a lot of work up in Canada specifically focusing on , you know , this group of individuals . But I think , generally speaking , we do know that you know , with age , our sex hormones specifically do start to decline , and know that you know , with age , our sex hormones specifically do start to decline . And for women , you know , testosterone is starting to decline , estrogen is starting to decline at about age 30 . And it continues to do that , you know , through to the end of life . Basically , and whilst I don't know that that would necessarily have any direct implications on how much muscle we can grow , I believe that some of the symptoms of low testosterone and low estrogen can become problematic if you are aspiring to have a high degree or a high amount of muscle mass just through its capacity to leave you feeling exhausted and like fatigued . So if you're not feeling very energized due to having low testosterone or low estrogen levels , it's a lot harder to stay motivated . And you know , show up regularly and consistently and lift , not to mention then lift with any degree of intensity , and we know how important proximity to failure is for muscle growth . So I think that might be another area where , unfortunately , a lot of women and I have worked with a lot of women in the gym as well over the years and we might perhaps and I don't want to generalize too much because I've also trained with some women that train really hard , but I might say on average , maybe more women struggle to really train at that rate of perceived exertion that is going to be effective for eliciting muscle growth . There was a meta-analysis that came out just last year , I believe , by the Data Driven Strength guys here in Florida actually , and they found that somewhere between an RPE of 7 through 10 seems to elicit similar , know similar muscle growth responses .

Holly Baxter 18:55

But there are probably a number of people that don't necessarily train in that um like degree of effort and it's not because they're lazy or , you know , they're not competent or able . I think sometimes it all also comes down to , like our confidence in the gym , especially for older women that may not have grown up in this fitness space Like I think of my mom , for instance . She's in her late fifties , women in their sixties like fitness and lifting weights wasn't something that was super popular , so they've kind of adopted resistance training a little bit later in life and may not feel as confident as you know us . You know that have been in the gym for you know , two decades almost , as in you know us , you know that have been in the gym for you know two decades almost as in you know in my case . So I think there's probably also , you know , the element of I don't really feel very confident in doing this , or they don't have a workout buddy or someone that they're you know training with . That gives them that support and encouragement to train hard and truly take their muscles to failure and truly take their muscles to failure .

Holly Baxter 19:54

But to bring the conversation back to menopause in general , I think all of the principles that I use with my younger clients are the same principles that I use with my older clients , and I don't want to call them old because they're not . They're not in their 70s , I'm talking like 40s , 50s and 60s . So it probably means that for this demographic we need to be a little bit more focused and dialed in , because what I might be able to get away with in terms of my protein intake , my calories , the consistency of my lifting , my sleep , my stress , it probably needs to dial up a few notches relative to my younger self . So , outside of that , I think everything that I teach is basically the same , but we probably need to focus a little bit more .

Philip Pape 20:45

So that's a good point because I there's like a dichotomy here where the older , like my older clients that are again older I'm 44 and whatever 44 years young that sometimes they're also more committed and willing to do that and to learn . There's like in a different , more mature life state in terms of their wisdom and their hard knocks of life . And again , not to generalize , but sometimes that counteracts some of what you're saying , which makes total sense , but in general for any age . You mentioned RPE . You mentioned exertion and working hard , the confidence how can you build that ? You mentioned a training partner . We know somebody can get coaching and support , but let's say they were by themselves . Is there an actual training approach , like using plus sets at the end of your sets to figure out what your true capability is ? You know something like that where you'd say , oh , this is a cool technique , you can try to really push yourself without it being a willpower thing .

Holly Baxter 21:43

Yeah , look , I think I probably implement a little bit more low load training with my like 40 plus clients and honestly , that's probably like 90% of my people that I work with and there's a couple of reasons I implement low load training and I best give a definition of what that is first . So typically , when we look at you know , ways or approaches to build muscle , we can implement high load training , which is taking like relatively heavy loads for fewer reps . So , to generalize , that's your traditional strength training 12 to sorry , 8 to 15 repetitions . Low load training is where we take lighter weights and we perform a higher number of repetitions . So that might be , you know , somewhere between 15 all the way up to 90 reps . And , believe it or not , there are studies one here in fact , at the University of South Florida that did like 90 rep sets to failure and they were able to accomplish the same hypertrophy response as the group that did the traditional resistance training . So I think that that's good because we've got such a broad spectrum of like training strategies and approaches that allow you to grow muscle . But as we get older , at least in my experience and even me personally I say my experience , my clientele , but even for me , when I was doing , you know , some power lifting training , I found that like my joints were getting sore , I was getting injured and I was in my thirties then and getting , you know , like some problems that I wasn't experiencing , you know , short outside of doing like very heavy training . So you know , I do get that feedback a lot from clients that are kind of coming in for the first time where they've tried that traditional high load training and they're , you know , just feeling the wear and tear on their body , perhaps a little bit more , you know , because of the aging process . So the strategy that I use to help build confidence is the reliance on low load training a little bit more . So we do , you know , higher rep ranges , slightly lighter loads , but taking it to failure , or at least very near to , to still elicit a very good muscle growth response .

Holly Baxter 23:46

And you can also , I guess , improve and build confidence in training to failure with light loads , which is inherently safer with techniques like myoreps , which is basically perform an initial set of 15 repetitions , rest for a really short period of time , I think 10 to 15 seconds , followed by , like you know , an eight rep set and then you rest again , followed by another eight rep set . So you basically kind of cluster . You know this group of exercise with really short rest periods , light loads , but you of exercise with really short rest periods , light loads , but you can get very close to failure doing that and the research would indicate that can lead to similar growth responses . You could also try approaches like blood flow restriction training . Sorry , that's where you know you're applying a tourniquet or some kind of cuff to the proximal portion of the arm or the leg . You're using significantly lighter loads and you can still take that set to failure but in a much safer way , rather than relying on really heavy loads as per traditional training to signal muscle growth . So that's kind of the approach that I take .

Holly Baxter 24:53

And of course you know you've got to take everybody case by case . Some people you know are a lot more confident in the gym . Maybe they did some kind of sport , you know , when they were younger and they're just a little bit more athlete . But I've got people right now who are in their 60s and this is the first time they've ever been into a gym .

Hormones and Menopause Impact

Holly Baxter 25:18

You know they've got various like physical issues and limitations and it's a gym . There's various physical issues and limitations and it's a process , but I think you meet them where they're at and , as you see them starting to grow in curiosity and confidence , the ball just starts rolling and it's really cool to see .

Philip Pape 25:30

Yeah , and this is why there are so many approaches that can work . And you mentioned the rep range is massive . I mean anywhere from you know , two to 90 reps if you were to combine all regimes together and we're talking specifically hypertrophy , you know we don't want to get too much into maybe strength and big lifts Like you alluded to . I've had folks on the show who like they're all into that and then others that say , look , machines are just as effective as free weights . And the answer is yes to all of it . Like , meet you where you're at and make sure you're training hard and within the proximity to failure . So I like that technique for individuals who feel like you know , maybe the big squats aren't for them or they've tried it or they're intimidated .

Philip Pape 26:07

Okay , so we kind of alluded to earlier , I think , not dieting and that you need to build muscle , at least be in maintenance , at least be gaining , combining that with your training . What are your thoughts on periodization for someone and again our audience is like I guess we're not talking to the total beginner necessarily , or like a little bit step above that , who kind of understands macros and a little bit of this but just break down what effective periodization looks like when we're talking hypertrophy as the goal .

Holly Baxter 26:40

Look , I think periodization has its place within a training program . But I think you know the concept in general was initially like founded to help mitigate , like external stresses . So essentially we would look at , let's say , the elite sporting athlete who's , you know , trying to compete in their let's say it's a sporting athlete who's trying to compete in their let's say it's a football game or they're doing basketball or something like this . This concept or this idea of periodization is to help mitigate and limit external stress from other outside sources . So basically , as the stress of one thing starts to increase , we kind of want to taper down the other to make sure that there's some sense of balance and that the person isn't dealing with too much at any one time .

Holly Baxter 27:21

So I don't know that I would necessarily utilize periodization in my resistance training profiles or programs for clients unless they have multiple different stresses or interests . So if they came to me and said , look , I'm a professional athlete , I also care about muscle , I also am interested in doing a marathon in six months time They've got a lot of different interests Then I think there's probably some relevance for periodizing a program . But for the average person who's just going into the gym , who's wanting to improve strength to a certain degree , but their primary goal is just hypertrophy . I don't know that there is a whole lot of need to implement a periodized approach , because we should just be focusing on one training program that is helping them achieve their muscle growth , and I mean , if there's no other competing stress , then we don't really need to periodize . So I don't know whether that does that make sense .

Philip Pape 28:21

It does . I'm so glad you took that approach and didn't let me like lead you to what you thought I was trying to get to , because I would agree , there's a lot of conversation around like daily , undulating periodization or linear periodization .

Holly Baxter 28:37

So again , I think those approaches work well , perhaps for individuals that have strength specific goals but they're also wanting to lift for muscle growth . So I know a lot of power lifters , for instance , would benefit from implementing some kind of periodized training approach because they , you know , they're trying to manage the fatigue from their hypertrophy training whilst they're also trying to maximize strength . So you know there's probably a greater need in those instances to include that type of training approach . But I think you know , for someone like myself , or maybe the people that are listening , if you're just going into the gym with the goal of improving your metabolic health , growing some muscle and internal , so you know , making some improvements in strength , that's probably not as important . I think . You know I want to minimize the complexity of someone's program so minimal is best .

Philip Pape 29:32

No , it's good to identify who it's appropriate for and it depends on your goals , right ? If you're an endurance athlete and you're going to do some big cycling race in six months , you know you may have to back off from that and decide how you train now versus how you train closer to the race . Or if you're an athlete , or you know , if you are building strength , there's like a base and a peak . You know phase you would go through and you wouldn't want to be doing seven lifts a day , type body building training when you're going for the peak . But for most people , like you said , keep it simple .

Philip Pape 29:59

There is a lot of program hopping and we're not talking about that either . How committed should someone be to a single program style or an actual program in terms of weeks or months when they're just trying to get the best result ? Keep it simple , keep going before they maybe get tired of it . Is it psychological , like when you just get bored of it and you're ready to move on , or is there a point where the variety is necessary for extra stimulus and symmetry and development of your physique ?

Holly Baxter 30:28

Yeah . So this is a really interesting question I'm sure we have put . So I have a research review where each month we publish , I guess , four different articles on different topics in relation to exercise science and nutrition , and I feel like we did one very recently that looked at exercise variety versus like a very repetitive you know , very repetitive style training program , and I think there are potentially some benefits to exercise variety if the exercises are targeting in different joints , different angles and also potentially different muscle groups within like a specific area . So I think , to give an example , uh , like a leg press or a squat probably does a really good job at targeting not only the rectus femoris but the vastus lateralis and the vastus medialis , so three different areas within our quad , whereas like a extension that does a fantastic job at , I believe , just , you know , nailing and hammering the vastus lateralis , that big muscle down the front of the leg . So you know , in a sense , you probably want to have a combination of different types of exercises to ensure that you're covering all of your bases . But ultimately , if you have a specific set of training goals and I'll just use my own right now because it's a really easy example to talk about because I'm a bikini competitor . All I care about is my glutes and my shoulders . I do not care about anything else at the moment . Sorry , the majority of my work and time spent in the gym is those two muscle groups . Everything else is a secondary focus .

Holly Baxter 31:57

So , provided that your program is set up to specifically target the muscle groups you care about , if there is enough diversity within those exercises , like we've kind of just described , there's technically no need for you to ever change your program . Because you know , if you've got five staple movements that are targeting the muscles that you want to grow , then in essence you could do that same program for an entire year , provided that your goals didn't change . Now , of course , you'd need to implement all of the . You know typical principles of hypertrophy , you know training with a high degree of effort , implementing progressive overload , and you know that would obviously increase your rate of perceived exertion over time . But yeah , short of that , I mean I think the biggest reason why I change my program is just for enjoyment , like program excitement , program motivation . It's about six weeks for me where I'm like yep , I'm ready for a new program . I don't know about you , but it's about that time for it .

Philip Pape 33:01

Yeah , it sounds about right . Six weeks , six to nine

Building Confidence with Low-Load Training

Philip Pape 33:04

weeks . I would say , yeah , that's right in the bailiwick , okay . So what about so if we're not necessarily having to periodize and we're not necessarily having to change the program frequently , which is good . It keeps it simple , straightforward . You commit , you develop . I think there's a lot of , like you mentioned , neuromuscular adaptation . There's aspects that you just in the first week you know you have that soreness and then you get , you'll get adapted and now you're growing . What about the different phases of nutrition that go with that ? Because people will say , well , what should I do during fat loss versus not ? Because my opinion is , if it's auto-regulated it can all work in all phases , versus , say , chasing PRs , which is going to be very difficult in fat loss when you don't have as much energy but there's also a volume component too , right , like you almost sometimes can't work as much in fat loss . What are your thoughts on that ?

Holly Baxter 33:49

Yeah , definitely . So I mean I have definitely been through my first year of fat loss training .

Philip Pape 33:53

Of course . To the extreme right , I mean I have definitely been through my first year of fat loss pain , of course , right now unfortunately To the extreme right , yeah , to the extreme .

Holly Baxter 34:04

So I mean , if somebody is striving for muscle growth , I mean if you're trying to do that in a calorically restricted state , I think you're going to limit your capacity to grow muscle and probably also just your general enjoyment and your performance , like all of those things , are going to be compromised , and again , the degree to which probably depends on how long that diet phase is , how much total body mass you've lost and other factors like that . But it's interesting , and I try to refer back to the research and what we actually see . The most recent paper that I read was by Helms and colleagues and they were reviewing , I guess , a fixed resistance training program under different caloric states . So there was a group that were just at their calculated maintenance for this training intervention . It was a group that ate in a modest surplus and then there was a group that ate in a high surplus and what was really interesting was that the hypertrophy response between those groups was actually insignificant . Now I might argue that the study design perhaps wasn't as great as it could have been . I don't know whether the program that they implemented with these participants was necessarily geared up to have them make meaningful muscle growth changes . I don't know whether the volume was quite high enough for this group of resistance trained individuals , but my theory is and again , I can't say that I've seen any data on this , but you know , anecdotally , through the work that I've done with clients , and maybe you've experienced this too I think that the the ability for somebody to build muscle might actually come down to their starting like body fat percentages or their current body composition . So my hypothesis would be that and again I have to pick a line in the sand here so I'm going to say 25% body fat If you are above 25% body fat , I think , even if you are at maintenance calories .

Holly Baxter 35:50

I believe , based on what I have seen with clients over the last two decades of working one-on-one with people , and for myself too , I do believe that these individuals can make meaningful progress in terms of building muscle because they have , you know , they have residue body fat , they have an energy source on their person that they can utilize to , you know , build that foundational muscle . Conversely , the leaner we get , there's less of a reservoir of energy , there's less adipose tissue that can be used for the provision of energy and to build muscle . I suspect that the leaner , we get sub 25% body fat . I think it becomes significantly more difficult to build an appreciable amount of muscle in that state If you're not then providing that energy through dietary meats .

Holly Baxter 36:39

So I do think it's possible for people to build muscle even at maintenance and probably even in a deficit in some cases . But that probably depends on their baseline characteristics . For the leaner individual , if they are trying to also create a deficit , it'd be like if I today you know I'm four weeks out from a competition there is probably very little chance that I'm building any muscle right now . I'm just trying to hang on to dear life for what I've got because I don't have a whole lot of energy reserves to fuel , you know , the building of more muscle tissue . So I think you were talking was your original question about strength .

Philip Pape 37:22

No , it was about the confusion over like , how should I train in different phases ? And what you just said was you know , depending on the energy stores you have on your body right , the more fat to lose , the easier it is probably to build muscle without being in a huge surplus , and leaner you are , you need a surplus . I guess the sub question for that is should people train ?

Holly Baxter 37:40

My answer would probably be no , with a few minor caveats . So I'd say that if your goals are unchanged so if you still have the goals of building a fantastic set of quads or a gigantic set of biceps the program that you implement during a fat loss phase would still be the same program that you implement during a muscle building phase . The key differences would be that you're probably not going to quite get the same response to that program . If you're in the extreme calorie deficit and you're a really lean person , the caveat might be that , due to low energy availability and perhaps inadequate micronutrient intake , your recovery probably isn't going to be as good during that calorie deficit . So I would say that the training probably going to be as good , you know , during that , uh , calorie deficit . So I would say that the training probably needs to be geared towards , um , a more modest approach . So , for instance , I do not ever program , or very rarely , I shouldn't say ever .

Holly Baxter 38:37

I do not program very often when I'm dieting . You know rpe 10 or rpe 9 . Even I try to train within an appropriate , you know , rpe 10 or RPE 9 . Even I try to train within an appropriate , you know , or at an appropriate intensity , but not so high that I , you know , injure myself , because my injury risk would be heightened during a calorically restricted state . So I think the intensity at which I train is probably a little bit less .

Holly Baxter 39:01

And then the other thing I think that's important to consider is that when you are dieting and you're calorically restricted , your performance is going to suffer . At some point . You might start to see performance decrements what you were able to lift at the beginning of your training block eight weeks in and your dieting might be noticeably different because you don't have the same energy levels to kind of get in and train really hard . And that's also problematic for dieting too , because we do start to see trends down in how much energy you're actually expending during your workouts when you're in that calorically restricted state too . So it makes it harder and harder to lose fat . You know the lower your calories and the longer you've been dieting , so it makes it harder and harder to lose fat . You know the lower your calories and the longer you've been dieting , so it's a tough situation to navigate .

Philip Pape 39:50

It absolutely is . And I know from personal experience right now because I'm also in a fat loss phase for the last four weeks or so kind of a mini cut which is very , very aggressive . And you go in with high hopes that you're going to continue your training just like you were doing and you're like I need to cut volume here because there's just nothing left , even with the banana right before your workout or whatever . Calories are just so low . So people need to understand that . But then also , getting back to the other side , the muscle building side , it implies that there's potentially a lot of opportunity for women to spend time in that type of phase not gaining , you know , tens and tens of pounds and lots of fat , right ?

Carol 40:31

But doing it in a lean , healthy way . Before I started working with Philip , I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency , but from the very beginning , philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals . He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym , and I lost 20 pounds . More importantly , I gained self-confidence . What sets Philip apart is the personal connection . He supported and encouraged me every step of the way , so if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do , I highly recommend Philip Pape .

Philip Pape 41:10

What are your general ? I mean , we could spend a whole episode talking about muscle building , what to do , and I've talked about it as well but like , what are your top three principles , I guess I would say for someone wanting to do their first serious muscle building ?

Holly Baxter 41:22

phase . I can't stress enough the importance of patience and I think once somebody understands the reality of speed at which a muscle grows , I think that can be really helpful . A lot of people don't have a solid understanding of what's realistic , so when I mentioned to somebody , it is really like watching paint dry . You know , I mentioned before , 0.2 to 0.3 of a centimeter is what we would typically observe in the average eight to 12 week study intervention . So I'll say , okay , we're going to do a three month field . I'm like do you think that you could see three millimeters if I were to tell you to look in the mirror and most of them will say , oh , probably not . So then I might say to them okay , well , what about six months ? So we do a six month build . And you didn't have any interruptions . You consistently trained that entire way through . Maybe now you've acquired 0.6 of a centimeter . Do you think that you could see that in the mirror ? And some of them might say yes , others might say no . But I'll always push back and say , well , if you've got body fat and most of us do during a build I would encourage you to have some body fat if you're going to do a build , so that you've got the energy to train hard . But most of us wouldn't be able to see even that kind of a change because we have a layer of body fat sitting over that muscle . So I think that it is . It's a challenging phase because you can't see the rewards immediately , like you can when you're dieting . You know there's that instant gratification when you start to see body fat stripping away , um , but you can't really see muscle growing . So I think you know patience is so important , um , and I know I sound like a broken record in my check-ins to my clients , but I'm like this is eat , sleep , train , repeat right now and make sure that you enjoy what you're doing so that you do consistently show up and keep at this and , I think , reminding folks that the benefits may not be visible .

Holly Baxter 43:11

Now , this is like your short-term sacrifice for long-term gain . But for every one

Nutrition and Periodization for Muscle Gain

Holly Baxter 43:17

kilogram of muscle that somebody puts on , you're able to increase your basal metabolic rate by somewhere in the measure of 22 to 25 calories per kg . So on the front end that doesn't sound very meaningful , right ? So let's say you put on four kgs I mean that's or five kilograms . We're talking 100 calorie increase to your BMR .

Holly Baxter 43:37

But it's when you then move that more muscular body and you just go about your day to day activities or you do the same lifting program that you've been doing for a few years in that more muscular body . Now it burns so many more calories because it's moving and it makes it so much easier in the future to actually achieve your fat loss goals . Because , without changing anything to how much exercise you do , you might do the same cardio . Anything to how much exercise you do , you might do the same cardio , same five-day training split , same incidental movement . But your body's like a guzzling truck . That's just incredibly inefficient . It uses a lot of energy . So it's so much easier to burn fat and then maintain a leaner physique once you've acquired the muscle . But again , I think so many women get stuck on . But I want to see my leaner self . I want to be lean . For every week that they diet . That could have been a week chasing the muscle that they ultimately need .

Philip Pape 44:39

No , it does , and that's like an investment in years and years and years of much easier living , dieting , whatever you're trying to do after that . Like you said , we did an episode not long ago called like 10 ways muscle burns more calories beyond what you think , or something that was looking into the research beyond just the cost of the tissue that you mentioned . Right that in American units , right , 10 , 10 , around 10 calories per pound . But same thing where there's other things happening , some that we don't even understand . Right , there seems to be other mechanisms , signaling mechanisms and such that cause us to burn more calories because we have more muscle , not to mention just standing around with more body weight . Because you're leaner at a higher body weight , you're burning more muscle . That's pretty cool .

Philip Pape 45:29

And then the patience of of doing it and getting through it and you , as a coach , saying , look , just keep doing what you're doing and focus on the process . That's all I can help you with right now . And as a coach , you're probably like I wish there was some other special magic thing I can mention this week . But there is it . Just keep it up .

Holly Baxter 45:40

Yeah , I think for men and women too .

Holly Baxter 45:42

though . I mean I work with dozens of guys as well . Some compete competitively , Others are just gen pop wanting to be healthier , live a better quality life . But I think even the males struggle with not necessarily being at their lean , shredded physique too . I get just as much , or close to the same , kind of pushback , having a little bit of the tummy tire or excess body fat .

Holly Baxter 46:06

But yeah , I think this is why it's also important to have a coach or to do the work yourself , whether it's through listening to audio podcasts , reading that help you improve your overall confidence and like self-worth . I know a lot of the client coaching sessions with my clients are just helping them , you know , recognize their value outside of their physique and kind of talk them off the cliff that they're sitting on because they feel so unhappy in how they look visibly . But you know , we then focus on their performance and you know how they're feeling and their confidence in you know , being consistent and all these other things . So , yeah , it's . There are different focuses , I think , in a building phase and different challenges and , yeah , again , I think the biggest thing is just having patience as your muscle is growing .

Philip Pape 46:59

Yeah , and you just mentioned one way to maybe support that patience with some I'll call it instant gratification or short-term thinking is tracking the right things that cause there are things that do change more quickly that you could celebrate . What would those be ? What would be the big things that most people should be tracking ?

Holly Baxter 47:19

Um , I would say , uh , like , if they're open to doing like macro tracking , I think , um , knowing and feeling confident in your , your decisions around your nutrition is helpful . Knowing that you're getting a sufficient amount of protein in uh is really important . I , for some of my clients , they just track protein and calories . Others are tracking you know , all macros . But I think that that gives confidence and , you know , helps them in trusting the process . If they know that these are my current calories , this is intended to keep my weight , you know , know , relatively stable , or at least they've got a trajectory of where they're heading and each week they can look at their data and go , yep , okay , what's happening is supposed to be happening . So , yeah , caloric tracking , nutrition tracking , I think is really important , protein especially .

Holly Baxter 47:58

And then from a training standpoint and this is not something I always used to do , I probably only implemented it in the last maybe eight to 10 years of my practice is tracking energy expenditure , like within a workout . So I mean , many of us wear Apple watches , garments , fitbits , tracking how much energy you expend in your workouts and just looking at the relative changes week over week . And then , if you're open to it , I also have some of my clients that , like data , do the same thing , you know , with their steps . We'll track relative changes from week to week so they can kind of see and make sense of why you know their weight might have gone up a little bit more this week than others . And it could be very easily distinguishable because , oh , look at that , my average steps this week were 4,000 less than last week .

Holly Baxter 48:39

Or , oh , see all those sessions that I missed because I was busy doing things with the kids . Oh well , see all those sessions that I missed because I was busy doing things with the kids . Oh well , that amounted to a thousand calories less than last week . Oh well , naturally that's why my weight went up a little bit , sorry , I think having that data can be validating because it helps us make sense of why things are happening . I think tracking fiber is another really important one that obviously influences scale weight significantly really important one that obviously influences scale weight significantly . So I think one of the things that a lot of my clients have been grateful for is me being able to point out , like why you know their weight went down or why it went up .

Holly Baxter 49:14

In response , to massive fluctuations in just food choice . I'm like , guys , this isn't even a bad thing . Like here's why you gained weight . It has nothing to do with body fat . Like here's why you gained weight , it has nothing to do with body fat . So data certainly can be a positive thing , especially if this is a long , six to 12 month game plan of building so that you can make sense of the changes , and that gives confidence

Effective Training with Time Constraints

Holly Baxter 49:38

. Yeah , and I think , just from a training standpoint , having some physical challenges that you can work towards too , it's one thing to just look at yourself in the mirror , but to have something that you can tangibly try to improve in terms of strength , picking a few key focus lifts and getting into the gym and having a performance-based goal , I think is also incredibly valuable during that building phase . Otherwise , it just becomes very monotonous and repetitive .

Philip Pape 50:08

Yeah , it's kind of meandering and aimless at that point . I totally know what you mean . It could be a PR on a lift or it could be hey , I'm going to do my first unassisted pull-up , or whatever it might be . One thing I want to ask about you said energy expenditure in your workouts . Why do you track that specifically ? And I ask for two reasons One is the inaccuracy of some of this data on wearables , to be honest . But then the other is what are you trying to measure ? Because I would suspect measuring volume , tonnage , things like that are a good indicator of your lifting progress , but what are you trying to measure with that expenditure ?

Holly Baxter 50:37

Yeah , sorry , the reason that I would track energy expenditure . And I want to just point out you are 1000% correct about these wrist-worn prices being largely inaccurate . I'm not looking at those necessarily for their absolute number , so I don't believe when I see somebody's done you know , 5,000 calories of energy expenditure across the week from their lifting and their cardio , that that's actually true and correct . I'm looking at the relative change from week to week just to . And again , if they're at maintenance , I want to be able to say to them your energy balance has stayed pretty consistent this week and thus there shouldn't be anything to worry about in terms of your body composition changing . And again , a lot of my clients are worried if in their in their building phase , that I'm suddenly putting on all this body fat . So it's nice to have that data to show them . Hey , look , for the last five weeks of your you know training , you've had very consistent week to week energy expenditures . Sorry , you know , there's no reason to believe that you've put on body fat .

Holly Baxter 51:34

And then the volume tracking that's really nice . If you train in the same location with the same equipment . I find that I place less value and weight in volume if I've got a client that is traveling , you know , every week their year , uh , because of their work , and they're in different gyms where the machines all load a bit differently . So , um , yeah , I think the volume tracking has its place . If you do and are somebody that has a um , a gym that you train at consistently and you're following a structured program , because then you can at consistently and you're following a structured program because then you can actually see like you're making progress in said lift . If you've got your overhand shoulder press you've been working on that I mean you can see your volume increasing week over week .

Philip Pape 52:16

But those are all fair points . And I asked about the energy thing because I'm going to start using that with my clients . Honestly , I've never just I've always dismissed it because of the inaccuracy and like trying to understand the value . But if you take the totality of as a proxy for just your overall activity and energy flux , it's great and it goes beyond just steps right Because it kind of includes everything , I think that's pretty cool .

Holly Baxter 52:38

Yeah , some of the clients will use some of theirs just run in the background . We'll use some of theirs just run in the background . So they'll give me their total daily energy estimated energy expenditure . I probably use that less but I do like it for if you've got a six week or a nine week program , as you said , that you're following consistently , if , like , I like to look at well , what was your energy expenditure for these sessions .

Philip Pape 52:57

For the sessions yes , yes .

Holly Baxter 52:58

And sometimes you will see noticeable differences , and it might be oh , you know , my kid had me up all night , I didn't sleep , or I have been unwell , and you can see the changes week after week , even though it's the same program . Um , that can help , um provide a reasonable justification for why their weight might be moving around a little bit . So , um , yeah , I find that very helpful .

Philip Pape 53:20

Got it ? No , I love that stuff . We're all about data and I'm always trying to discover new things to track . You know HRV over here and this over there . Do you have like five minutes just to wrap ?

Holly Baxter 53:28

Okay .

Philip Pape 53:29

Absolutely , because the one thing I kind of was going to lead part of this discussion with was more about time efficiency and I and the conversation actually took a really nice direction and other very critical topics but I did want to get back to if women are stressed . You know they have a stressful life , busy life . I'm sure lots of women in your you know client base are trying to find the time to work out . We know it's important but there's also a limit with kids and with family or with work . What is , I'll say , the minimum effective dose ? Right ?

Holly Baxter 54:10

Or minimum viable product , whatever with time in the gym or number of sessions or length of sessions where you still can get amazing results for hypertrophy . Yeah , so it does depend on someone's training status . So for like beginners , brand new to lifting the first time stepping in the gym , then the number of sets that you would need per muscle group per week is probably somewhere between 10 to 15 sets . So it's actually quite difficult to prioritize every single muscle group , believe it or not , otherwise you'd probably be living in the gym , and even more so if you're an advanced lifter . But to just generalize , if you've got , say , three key areas you want to grow and you're time poor and you're a beginner , then just make sure that those three key muscle groups you are doing somewhere between 10 and 15 sets per week and that you're distributing them over a minimum of like two days or two days . Training frequency . What we tend to see is , once you perform more than , say , nine hard working sets , when taken to failure within a single session on one muscle group . So , example , quads you wouldn't want to do four quad exercises taking you to 12 sets in that same session . There starts to be diminishing returns . So we don't necessarily see any additional benefits in terms of hypertrophy beyond that . So I personally stick to like six to nine sets maximum on one muscle group before I move on . But for advanced lifters those numbers are quite a bit higher and I would say probably somewhere between 20 and 30 working sets or direct sets , taken close or to failure , per muscle group per week . So I have found in my experience I can usually only fit about two or three focused muscle groups up in that kind of volume range before I run out of days in the week to train . So everything else kind of then takes a back seat . So if I pick my glutes and my shoulders and maybe my quads as my focus muscle groups , that's going to take up a few days of your training . So you know all of the other groups might end up being just at maintenance volume . So that would be somewhere between you know , zero and 10 sets per week would probably I should say three sets to 10 sets per week would help you to maintain your current muscle mass as an advanced lifter . So that's kind of how I would encourage somebody to think about their their training week if they're time poor and then to utilize like efficient training strategies .

Holly Baxter 56:31

So I mentioned before , like the benefits of potentially relying on like female biology , capitalize on short rest periods . We have this innate ability at least it seems sorry in some research to have shorter rest . So , provided that your recovery allows you to perform eight or more repetitions in your subsequent sets , you know , even if you've had 30 seconds recovery , that still leads to the same kind of growth response as resting for three minutes . Now , I know some people love resting for long periods . Go for it . You'll probably have a much higher total volume , but that doesn't inherently mean that you're going to get more muscle growth . So , yeah , I opt for short rest periods when I'm busy . I'm usually only in the gym , like four times a week for about 60 minutes myself , so that plays a really important part in getting in and getting out and still getting a really effective workout .

Philip Pape 57:27

That's good . I mean people . It's good to understand that this is accessible for anyone at any training age , even as an advanced , and by by the time you get to be an advanced lifter , you're you're probably so into it that you're going to find the time anyway . That's my take on it . But you know your , your app , uh be a , is new and

New App for Evidence-Based Training

Philip Pape 57:44

improved and got lots of great features . How does that play into how people train and help them do this ?

Holly Baxter 57:50

Yeah , oh , my gosh , I'm so excited about it . So we launched a product last year actually and unfortunately we had to take it off the market for various reasons that I can't discuss today . But I have a new business partner and we basically rebuilt this thing bigger and better , and it is incredible . So we have hundreds of different training programs with many different focuses . So I believe we have strength focus programs , hypertrophy , cardio , mobility and warmup programs and catered to different experience levels , and all the programs implement an evidence-based approach and it's got so many really cool features . So one of the things that I always found frustrating when I used to be a personal trainer , back when I was like 18 years old , was I'd write a program for a client and they're like I don't have that piece of equipment feature where , if you use this little button , it will show you every other exercise in our entire workout library that targets the same primary muscle group as the movement you're trying to replace , so you don't have to guess your exercise .

Holly Baxter 58:54

It'll show you these are the 50 or 60 other movements that will target that muscle group . So that's been really a really great tool . We've also got a brand new build your own workout feature . So for those that are more advanced and just want to kind of dabble and having a nice platform for your programs as opposed to putting them in Excel sheets , it does that . But it's got so many cool features and I can't wait to keep adding more .

Philip Pape 59:18

Great yeah . And look , if someone's listening and you're looking for a workout program based on evidence-based principles . And , by the way , the two pain points you just talked about from personal experience are big pain points like swapping exercises . I do it all the time , whether I'm following my own program or someone else's . Just I'll need to do it , and most apps you just have to know and then search for it , and so that is really cool . And then I know you have meal-friendly or macro-friendly food in there as well . So for people that are trying to get an all one-stop shop for everything , it sounds like a great app . So we're going to , we're going to throw that in there . Is there anything else you wish we had covered ?

Holly Baxter 59:51

um , holly , before we adjourn , oh my gosh , there's so many things .

Philip Pape 59:56

No , not right now .

Holly Baxter 59:59

Okay .

Philip Pape 59:59

No , that's all good . Um , where do you want people to find you ?

Holly Baxter 1:00:01

I mean , we'll definitely throw the app in there , or else you want them to hit you up . I think most things you're able to discover on my Instagram platform , but I'm on YouTube . I always do educational videos on YouTube . That's kind of my pride and joy over on that platform . But I put lots of content out on Instagram . We put our website , we've got the app links and everything available right there . So that's just Holly T Baxter .

Philip Pape 1:00:22

Cool , all right , we'll keep it simple . Through the app , the YouTube , the IG , people can reach out to you . Thank you so much for coming on . These are always really good topics to revisit because there's so many myths out there and so much nonsense , and I like your measured , you know , evidence-based approach , but it's still super flexible and anyone can do this . So thank you , holly , for bringing your expertise to the show of the show .

Holly Baxter 1:00:44

Thank you , I had a great time .