The Fitness Crossroads Dilemma

Philip Pape 0:01

What should you do next ? Build muscle , maintain your current physique or cut body fat ? Today's episode will give you clarity , because you're going to hear a real-time rapid nutrition assessment call with someone who's made really impressive progress but now faces that familiar quandary what is my next phase ? We are going to talk about an approach that honors both your aesthetic goals and long-term health , especially bone density . Approach that honors both your aesthetic goals and long-term health , especially bone density . You'll discover why intensity in the gym might matter more than calories , how to break through training plateaus without compromising results and deal with what feels like competing fitness goals so that you can move forward with confidence .

Philip Pape 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency . I'm your host , philip Ape , and today we are featuring another recording from a rapid nutrition assessment call with someone who is weighing different options for their next fitness phase . Now , these are just 15-minute calls that I offer for free to help people identify their key roadblocks , create a plan moving forward . It's not a sales pitch . You can use the link in the show notes anytime if you want to schedule one with me , and today's conversation with Sam perfectly captures the struggle that many of us face wanting to build muscle for health and strength while maintaining a lean physique that we worked hard to achieve . And what makes this really valuable , I think , is that , sam , she has already established some solid

Sam's Journey and Fitness Goals

Philip Pape 1:36

nutrition and training habits , yet she still needs guidance on an optimal path forward . We always need support and guidance at these forks in the road , no matter how much knowledge we have , no matter how much we've been there before . I have coaches , I have systems that help me as well , and I feel like these calls will give you a way to do that . So , whether you're currently in a similar position as Sam or you know , you'll be there one day . I think the insights from today's conversation are still going to help you navigate what to do next in your fitness journey with a bit more clarity .

Philip Pape 2:08

Thanks , sam , for setting this up . I know you've been listening to the podcast a while , so you also have a lot of knowledge and experience . You mentioned that you're looking at counsel on what phase to go into next . Right , should you build ? Should you maintain ? Should you do fat loss ? Um , and let's see . I , it says here , you've invested time in nutrition and fitness coaching with great results . Give credit for being dialed in in the behaviors , to the behaviors we care most about . So those would be the big pillars we talk about a lot and , um , I can make a case for each of the three options . We all can at any given time . Every day I'm thinking about these three options myself .

Philip Pape 2:45

I'm like because are you the type of person who just loves to push a little bit and kind of vary things up ?

Speaker 2 3:06

nerd out on this stuff . I have really good systems in place and I frankly do get a little bored and restless . So I , like I probably too often kind of reconsider the plan , like , oh , does it need tweaking ? Does it need tweaking ? And a lot of times the answers just stay the course . But that's sort of what I want to talk about is like am I just being restless and a little , you know , do I need to just kind of settle in ? But I do think it's helpful for me to hear what I'm settling into and kind of for the right reasons .

Philip Pape 3:32

So yeah , and you hit the nail on the head by saying the right reasons , because usually what I come back to is the front of the loop and the back of the loop . The front of the loop is like envisioning your future self . Why are you doing this ? What does it look like ? What are you actually trying to achieve ? Like , what is the real reason here , the purpose driving you other than short-term ? Yeah , I like up a good project , which is also acceptable , and then and then , um , knowing that you've been through this before , you know there's some level of , I'll say , discomfort , um , in change . And so what's going to give you the most momentum toward that goal in the next , say , six to 12 months ? So how does what resonates with you there ?

Speaker 2 4:11

I guess I'm I'm torn because one of your first questions always is , and ought to be , like what's your goal , what are you working towards ? And kind of what's your why for that goal Right ? Kind of what's your why for that goal right ? Like fair questions , I think I'm torn because I want to build muscle and I particularly want to get my bone density score higher . I had a recent DEXA scan .

Speaker 2 4:35

This is very much on my mind , so I know what's needed in order to do that . I need to push it in the gym more , just as some very quick backstory on gym training . So I would say for many , many years I've always been a very fit and active person , but for many years , kind of in my twenties and thirties I'm now in my late forties , I would say my RPE during workouts , bar cycling , hiking , that kind of stuff my RPE was always like three , four . You know it's kind of mild to moderate . I would say the last two to five years I've gotten much more comfortable with being in like a five six zone and now I'm looking , I know I need to move more into an RPE of like seven , eight and nine in the gym , particularly around strength training , if I'm going to move the needle on

Training Intensity and RPE Discussion

Speaker 2 5:26

building muscle . So I've recently started following a program I really like I don't know if you know Marcus Philly functional bodybuilding .

Philip Pape 5:37

Yeah , I know , I don't know that specific one Continue .

Speaker 2 5:40

He's great . He's kind of an ex crossfitter who's really come up with a lot more kind of sane approach to weightlifting and a lot of mobility work . So anyway , I really like his program . I'm weightlifting currently four times a week , but I know the direction I need to go in has a lot to do with increasing intensity , so , like when it comes to the muscle building and the bone density piece , I kind of understand how to do that .

Speaker 2 6:06

I think the part that feels like maybe I'm torn about is I also would like to have um , lower body fat than I currently do and , um , this is the part that I just sort of not sure about . I'm currently sitting at 18% . Last year I had done a fat loss phase and I got down to 14% . I felt amazing . I felt shredded , I felt strong , I liked how I looked in clothes , I felt confident , and that was a very hard place to stay .

Speaker 2 6:41

In the course of a year I've put back on seven pounds , not through being slovenly or not moving . I've been constantly active and training , but I do think my body kind of likes to sit where it always kind of has and to go down from there requires a caloric restriction at being in a calorie deficit , but it comes with , I think , a pretty good feeling , and that's where I get torn . Okay , you might tell me , in order to put on muscle , you've got to go into a build . And I'm kind of sitting here going . I feel really ambivalent about that because I'm already at the top end of my weight range . If I just start kind of increasing calories , even in a slow and steady way , I might feel a lot of discomfort with that , and I so . Anyway , I've said a lot .

Philip Pape 7:36

No , you said a lot of great things on a lot of really good points , so I took some notes , cause there's different things we should cover here . Um , let's start strategic . Let's start strategic . Let's start high level . When you talk about discomfort and top of your range and all of that , it's very personal , right ? I always tell people how do you know you're ready ? You just know that you're kind of uncomfortable where you are and you want to go the other direction . Having said that , one question I always like to ask is besides a seven pound weight gain , have you ever intentionally

Build, Cut or Maintain Options

Philip Pape 8:04

tried to build muscle , or even been training to build muscle and slowly gained weight ?

Speaker 2 8:09

besides that , no , I've never gone into a caloric surplus , um , I have only ever been at maintenance and trying to add muscle or been in a deficit and trying to add muscle trying to add muscle , or been in a deficit and trying to add muscle .

Philip Pape 8:27

Okay , and you mentioned that when you got shredded it was hard to maintain , which means your body set point might float a little bit higher than that , which is totally normal , especially when you're talking 14% , which when I always subtract 10 to think of a man , it was like 5% . It's very lean again , not right or wrong , but it makes a lot of sense . So I would first ask and rule out or accept in is there a really driving reason to get shredded ?

Speaker 2 8:52

right now ? Absolutely no , none of that . It was just a feeling of confidence that I haven't typically experienced day to day . I really like how clothes fit . I liked how I felt naked , frankly , like I just felt comfortable , strong and confident . So , but no , there's no kind of event , there's no particular anything that's significant .

Philip Pape 9:25

Okay . So the next thing I want to get to because I want to come back to the three options maintenance , fat loss , muscle building is when you talk about training intensity . I like that because sometimes we feel like we have to bring out the intensity or , like you said , you're not feeling like you're necessarily training as intensely as you can and you understand that that's important . How do you know ? So this is kind of just putting you on the spot how do you know you're training intensely or not ?

Speaker 2 9:53

One obvious side effect for me is getting a little sore at times . I would say when I've been weightlifting before exercising , kind of prior to this year , last year , I didn't experience soreness kind of ever , and now I'm trying to feel it a little bit more the next day as some biofeedback , like hey , your body responded to what you did yesterday . So that's one thing . I think the other thing is , mentally , when I'm choosing a weight that I'm doubting can I do that , that's usually an indicator that I'm stepping out of my comfort zone .

Philip Pape 10:31

That's a good one .

Philip Pape 10:31

No , I like that right , because sometimes it is about making the attempt regardless .

Philip Pape 10:37

So what I think of when you say you're doing four days a week and it's kind of a bodybuilding thing , is um , when I work with a beginner who's never lifted before , for example , we're going to use like a very simple strength based program I deal with barbells if they have it , if not , we can use dumbbells , and I would I would actually use a program that involves pushing load and only load and not reps or rep ranges , not even rep ranges . Right Sets across like starting strength , something like that , only because it basically tricks you into getting more intense , like , involuntarily you are going to , it's going to get to a point where the RP is getting to six , seven , maybe eight or even nine . Um , assuming you don't push , you know the load too much from one session to the next , cause that's one of the variables . You don't push , you know the load too much from one session to the next , because that's one of the variables , and so have you . Have you done like a focus to strength ?

Speaker 2 11:26

training . You know , push the numbers type program A little bit . I wouldn't say program , but like . So part of the help and the coaching that I've gotten over the course of the past 18 months was

The Case for Aggressive Maintenance

Speaker 2 11:35

I worked with a trainer so that I could feel what it felt like . Well , first of all I wanted to get like really good form , but I also wanted to feel what it felt like to go somewhere I hadn't been before with someone watching , because I was scared .

Speaker 2 11:50

It brings up a lot of fear in me to go to like seven , eight , nine . So not a program per se , but I've , I've done , I've had some rehearsal with what it feels like to kind of push and get uncomfortable .

Philip Pape 12:04

Okay , and now this segues then into the phases . Because if you're in a fat loss phase , you know a bodybuilding style program can be great because it's auto-regulated right , like you can adjust um , you can be , you can push intensely , even if your strength isn't necessarily increasing , and hold on to muscle . But that that's . That's . The goal is to hold on to muscle , which it sounds like you've kind of already gone through . That Um , I'm leaning , like for you more toward maintenance , recomp , man , maybe muscle building . I know you came with maybe some preconceived notions like he's going to tell me to gain Um , and obviously it I don't . I'm not going to tell me to gain Um , and obviously I don't . I'm not going to force you to do anything , obviously . But where , where , where the options are , are um maintenance right ? If , if your body fat is in what you think of as a healthy range and your training is progressing , um , that could be a really beneficial place to be , because then you can , I'll say , chase the numbers in the gym . You can chase the progression in the gym as your like metric , and not worry about body weight , body anything really . Just , yeah , I take body measurements once a week , things like that , but you can just focus on the growth and the energy and the performance without pushing yourself to that level of , like my clothes don't fit , discomfort , self doubt , looking in the mirror and but also not worried about like , starving yourself to get to it . I'm not saying that's what you did , but there are sacrifices in both directions . Um , the pros being that you know the pros of that approach being you could potentially gain some muscle with minimal fat gain . It's very flexible for your life . You could just live and enjoy the summer which is coming up right without feeling uncomfortable in a bathing suit . Uh , if , if you have the occasional high stress or other demanding things in your life , it's , it's great Cause you're energized , right , yeah , the really only downside it's going to be a little slower . The visual changes are slower . It requires a little more patience . Um , I like to track even more precisely in maintenance , just cause it's , you know , sometimes hard to tell what's going on without doing that , but it's a great place to be . So that's one option .

Philip Pape 14:00

The other option when we talk about muscle building is if you're willing to accept a little bit of fat gain , knowing that you can really pack on some more lean tissue so that later lean phases you can get , say , shredded at a higher body fat , with more food , with higher calories , with less impact to your hormones , less negative biofeedback . It's a short-term kind of trade-off for that , right , where the benefit that you go after and you focus on is on chasing the strength and size , and size in a good way , right , because I know some people and women you know chided that thought of bulkiness . You upgrade , upregulate your metabolism , you know you potentially eat more food which helps you develop that skill of doing that in a controlled way . Uh , the cons , of course . Now you're going to have a little more fat there and maybe psychologically run into some issues . So , having said all this , is there a place that you're leaning toward so far , or do we need to drill in a little bit more ?

Speaker 2 14:58

I guess it's one thing I feel a little bit uncertain about , and maybe the whole answer is like I've just never really pushed to a level of intensity where the muscle building is really like alive and well . So I think that like that is a place to really put my focus , like that is something I can control , is like regardless of you know , we're really only talking about like 50 more calories a week , if I do the math , kind of the way that I think you counseled prior clients to do um , which is not significant at all , but the bigger kind of lever it feels like right now is okay , really committing to the training yes and if I did that at maintenance , just to see , like , does that move the needle at all ?

Speaker 2 15:44

And the hypothesis is that a little bit more food would be the variable that would like move the needle a little bit more . Um , I still don't entirely understand why that's the case . If my protein is really high , which it is right now , and I'm training intensely , what would just a little bit more food do ? Can maybe you address that piece , because that would help me make sense of the delta between maintenance and a little bit more .

Philip Pape 16:16

Yeah , I mean , I think of the body as a system and you've got lots of mechanisms going on , like just now sitting there , right , you have so many mechanisms with your hormones , um , keeping you alive , with your organs . Organs actually are very hungry . People don't realize that , and when you're

Training Focus for Bone Density

Philip Pape 16:36

at , let's say , you're at true maintenance exactly the maintenance you need you have everything required to maintain homeostasis and that's where your body likes to be . And so if you go into the gym and you hit it hard , your body , let's say , has to hit a decision point . Do I devote some of the resources coming in to build that muscle by sacrificing storage of energy , which is like a survival mechanism , or do I just , um , maintain what's there and it's ?

Philip Pape 17:04

And here's the thing there's a lot of debates today about whether maintenance is really all you need . I think what it comes down to is the experienced folks , the trainers and lifters out there who are talking about this . They really know how to stay on that aggressive side of maintenance , which is kind of like . You mentioned 50 calories . To me , that's like almost maintenance , right , even though you might be more petite and a lighter body weight . That's why your calories needs and now it can go out and give you um , the , the amino acids you know , devoted to structural build , building of the muscles , and and it's a fine threshold . Because if you , if you're not quite at that threshold , it's still like maintenance and then your body is just kind of floating . And if it's well beyond that , you know , the more you go , the more you're likely to hit that maximum . But then you keep going and you're going to gain more fat , right ? That's why we're trying to find that spot . So I don't know if that explained it for you .

Philip Pape 18:04

It's , I guess not well understood as the exact mechanisms . Why ?

Speaker 2 18:08

No , but I kind of think about it almost from like a resources perspective , that like when resources are scarce , obviously your body is going to try to hold on to it . When resources are just plentiful enough , you're going to kind of stay as things are . But you kind of have to move into like a little bit more of this surplus for your body to be able to release and like to kind of change its focus somehow .

Philip Pape 18:32

Yeah , it's a prioritization .

Philip Pape 18:33

And also because you're leaner , you don't have excess energy and so your body , like the hormonal signaling , is even more errors on the side of homeostasis , of holding onto that energy .

Philip Pape 18:46

So it's kind of like a slight disadvantage that leaner folks have . Right , if you were overweight or even just a little bit , had a little bit of extra fat , your body would perceive maintenance as still potentially a surplus because of the extra fat storage you know it's . It's all just a net energy system to think of it that way . So that's why I do like for you since you basically laid out your thoughts uh , an aggressive maintenance which would be like a lean gain of like uh , 0.15% body weight a week , let's say around that range which would gain very little scale weight over a meaningful period . Like you could do it for six to nine months and you're not talking about a lot of pounds , right . But you give your body the best chance to build . And what's neat about that too , sam , is even though how do I put this there's a chance for some recomp as well while you're doing that , right , meaning because you're in that safety point . Your body might then release some more fat anyway as part of that process .

Philip Pape 19:42

So kind of interesting place to be .

Speaker 2 19:44

Yeah , okay , um , and then just last question , in terms of like knowing I'm really at maintenance , I'm looking at my trend weight and so over the course of from Jan one to now , it has fluctuated within four pounds . So some weeks it's up , some weeks it's down . The weeks it's down it's often deliberate , it's not accidental . I'm like , oh , I didn't like the spike from a couple weeks ago . Let me kind of pull my calories down a bit . But within that four pound range , do we tend to think of maintenance as a range or do we tend to think of maintenance as , like within a pound , like a very kind of tidy little unit ?

Philip Pape 20:24

No , the former , yeah , the former . Um , two or three pounds plus or minus is a good . You know , the lighter you are , the smaller the absolute number , but , like for most people , it's like two to three pounds in either direction . So you're talking about like a six pound swing . So you've been a maintenance . That's what I would say . If I saw your purple graph , it'd be like kind of right in that window , right , yeah , yeah , in which case then , a dedicated lean gain should see a very slight drift upward over time . You know , um , the the what .

Philip Pape 20:51

So here's an interesting , since you've never done this on purpose , um , one of the challenges you might run into is your metabolism responds upward and you fall behind and you're actually no longer in aggressive maintenance , and so you kind of have to get it and look at your expenditure and see how it's trending .

Philip Pape 21:07

If it starts to take off like really steeply , I would usually advise getting ahead of that by eating more , you know , just to kind of avoid a plateau , because the plateau is just kind of wasting time . If you know , just to kind of avoid a plateau , cause the plateau is just kind of wasting time , if you will , at maintenance . Um , and then the training side . This is really up to you . But , um , if you've never done like a super meaningful strength training focus , I would . I would bias your program toward that where you have either full on main lift focus or a hybrid like what they'd call power building , which is main lifts with some bodybuilding but like focused on the heavier side , especially when your concern is bone density you know you're saying versus hypertrophy versus just hypertrophy or just like eight to 12 rep range type stuff , not to say .

Philip Pape 21:51

I mean , you probably have heard the science by now . There's a lot of flex in all of that and you could have a hypertrophy bias . In a strength program , for example , you might have one lift that's a main lift and you you do it in like an eight to 12 rep range but then you'll progress over time to like a lower rep range as it gets heavier and it becomes strength , but then it cycles back to the higher rep range as it gets heavy . Um , you can do more of a pot , power building , which is like I'm going to do a main lift , heavy , I'm going to do a support main lift or developmental lift . So you might do like a squat and then a sumo deadlift and then two or three bodybuilding style , right .

Philip Pape 22:29

Or you could do just straight up strength , where it's like I'm going to do three or four main lifts and variants of main lifts , all compound lifts . You know I'll do a , I'll do a squat , I'll do a sumo , I'll do an RDL , maybe one bodybuilding support thing and call it a day , but like they're all pretty heavy , right , how do you ? How do you do ? You have a trainer that's giving you a program now , or what are you following ?

Speaker 2 22:50

No , I'm . I bought Marcus program and so following it I move every day of the week , but I'm weightlifting four days . It does tend to be the higher rep range stuff which I was thinking about more like from an aesthetic perspective , looking like I lift , which is always like a fantasy , but you're saying from a bone density perspective , especially thinking about going heavier and not being as hemmed in by those higher reps .

Philip Pape 23:20

Yeah , it's . It's mainly for that , because your strength and function and bone density is all I think . I think that's like priority number one . Did you listen to my recent episode , strength versus hypertrophy ? Yeah , I mean , maybe re-listen to that Cause , then you kind of hear the logic and the progression of it yeah . Yeah , re-listen to that , because then you kind of hear the logic and the progression of it . Yeah , yeah , re-listen to that one .

Philip Pape 23:44

Um it all works , I'll say , Um , but I like efficiency , you know . Yeah , yeah , Me too . If you can get super strong , it can then translate to having more confidence and higher lifts with your hypertrophy work Also . Doing it that way gives you even more idea of intensity and training close to failure . Yeah , Because when it's five reps for three sets and you can only do five reps , you're up there like RPE eight maybe and you feel it and you know what it's like . But it also won't necessarily make you sore . But for the first time you do it right , Because the body adapts quickly and maybe learning to not necessarily chase soreness but really chase growth is the way to go .

Philip Pape 24:26

Anyway , I think you have a good . I think you have a good plan aggressive maintenance , um , strength focus . Obviously , if you need specific resources , I've got plenty . I can send you some of our workout programs or point you to some trainers that I like for that Um . And then , since you're already using macro factor , you know how to set that up . So I think you're golden . What ?

Speaker 2 24:44

do you think I feel great . I mean , I'm just basically listening to your podcasts as like a little coach in my ear and trying to make adjustments , kind of based on what I'm hearing and learning all the time . Um , so I'm going to , I'm going to try this out and I might come back to you at some point and just sort of say I think I'm ready to do more of a build , but I'd like to kind of partner and have somebody helping me do that . Just cause that every time . You know it's like the first time you do anything . Sometimes it's helpful to have a coach A hundred percent .

Philip Pape 25:16

There's so many things . You don't know . You don't know .

Speaker 2 25:18

That's where I like to put it .

Philip Pape 25:20

So now you're now you're playing offense , now you've got some good data to get started . I'm really excited for you because it's you've got so much like potential there . I just know it , I can feel it . You have a great attitude and I think you're you're committed and you're going to make it happen . So awesome , sam .

Speaker 2 25:34

Okay , awesome Phil . Thank you , I so appreciate your time

Closing Thoughts and Recommendations

Speaker 2 25:37

.

Philip Pape 25:37

Thanks so much . You know how to reach me and have a great day . Enjoy your time in New York and we'll talk soon . Thank you , sounds good , take it easy . All right , and that was my recording with Sam and if you found value in that , if you want your own personalized guidance , like Sam received for your situation , I invite you to go ahead and book your own free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment with me . Don't be shy , I'm a nice guy , I'll make you feel at ease .

Philip Pape 26:02

It is not a sales pitch . Basically , it's us talking about the thing holding you back right now , whether it's nutrition , what to do next , your training , really anything and give you some targeted , actionable steps in a fast-paced 15 minutes . So to schedule it , use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click the button at the top . Again , no sales pitch , just some guidance from me to you to help you achieve your goals more efficiently . All right , so as we wrap up , I think the most exciting thing about my conversation with Sam and hopefully you got that as well is just focusing on the fundamentals , the pillars right , progressive overload , proper nutrition , consistency with your habits .

Philip Pape 26:40

You're gonna transform yourself without anything radical . You just need to know a direction and then a consistent plan to get there , knowing there will be deviations along the way , and that's totally okay . Your metabolism's very adaptable , you're very adaptable . So get on that and also schedule your call if you think it'll be helpful . Until next time , keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that the most powerful fitness tool it's not in a supplement , it's not in the latest YouTube workout program . It is the intelligent application of effort where it matters most . I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast .