Overcoming Food Fear Culture

Philip Pape 0:01

If you've ever looked at your grocery list and wondered , am I buying the right foods ? And you've read every ingredient label , or you feel guilty about enjoying meals of friends because they don't fit your clean standards , this episode is for you . The rise of social media gurus has created a culture of fear around food , where everything seems potentially harmful , from anything in a package to even fresh fruits and vegetables . Potentially harmful from anything in a package to even fresh fruits and vegetables . My guest today reveals why this fear-based approach to eating might be worse for your health than the occasional indulgence . You'll discover what's more important than perfectly adhering to your diet , how to navigate grocery shopping without paranoia and some tips to enjoy eating again without sacrificing your health and fitness goals . Stop letting food fear control your life and learn how to build sustainable , enjoyable eating habits that actually improve your health long-term . Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency .

Philip Pape 1:03

I'm your host , philip Pape , and today we're discussing how to make food choices in our modern world without falling prey to fear , guilt and obsession . In a food environment dominated by processing , by ultra-palatability hard word to say and with social media constantly bombarding us with confusing and conflicting nutrition advice . Many people are scared of their food choices . My guest today is Alana Bonneman , a naturopathic nutritionist who specializes in helping women reconnect with their bodies and find sustainable approaches to nutrition , which is what we're all about here as well . She guides clients away from restrictive diets and toward nourishing foods that support abundant energy , balanced hormones and optimal health , and she is the host of the Health After 30 podcast , so give that a follow , because there's a conversation with us on there as well . Today , you'll learn why your relationship with food matters more than perfect adherence to clean eating , how to approach processed foods without fear , and some tips to make food choices that work for your lifestyle and health goals . Alana , good to see you again . Welcome back . Welcome to the show .

Alana Bonnemann 2:09

Yeah , thank you , Welcome back yeah we just had a wonderful episode on the Health After 30 as well , so it's really good to be here .

Philip Pape 2:16

So on that show we talked about lifting , we talked about nutrition and lifestyle and all that . Today , I really want to dig into the topic of food fear and the environment and kind of how people make choices . The first question that comes to mind then is , like what is going on when people are afraid of food ? Like why is that even a thing ? Let's start there .

Alana Bonnemann 2:36

Well , I mean , that's a learned behavior , right . Why are we afraid of food ? And that comes down to , perhaps , the psyche of things . Also , perhaps we could even go into the food rules that we've been taught . So this comes not only from society and Instagram and all the rest of it , but also what we've been taught at home . If you've ever heard or maybe you might even say it yourself no , you probably don't , but it's something that I definitely heard when I was growing up up that you need to finish all the food on your plate in order to get dessert . You know things like this , or yeah , you have to . What's another ?

Philip Pape 3:12

food rule yeah , clean your plate . No , you're right yeah , yeah .

Alana Bonnemann 3:15

My grandmother would always say you know , if you leave any rice on your plate , that's the amount of holes that your partner's going to have in their face when they're older , like terrible , why that's so arbitrary . So we kind of grow up with these understandings of what food is . And also , you know , finishing a plate in order to get dessert , that means it's also putting this dessert and sweet stuff on a pedestal as well . So this distorted idea of what food is and how it serves us and how we should be eating it , rather than what we think we should be eating , becomes really , really difficult .

Philip Pape 3:50

Yeah , yeah , and there's a should in there that I think is important , the word should and rules , and that really hits me hard because you and I were chatting , I think , off the record about just our history with that . So then the converse of this is like what would a world look like where people didn't have fear , guilt , morality related to food ? Like what is that ideal vision If there was never any of this conditioning these food rules , anything else , what would that look like to you ?

Alana Bonnemann 4:16

The thing is you know what you feel good on . If you pay attention , you will know what foods make you feel light and agile and focused and full of energy and vitality . And you know the foods that don't make you feel that way . It's just that in today's society , when that's set up , the foods that don't make us feel so good , so that means perhaps sluggish , constipated , bloated , sedative you know , in a way they're just really delicious and they're designed to be delicious and that's not with your health in mind . That's obviously in the minds to make , make money or make business or , you know , just to basically sell things that are delicious .

Alana Bonnemann 4:57

This is not to say that those things are bad . Food is food . It comes down to okay , how much should can we , how much do we thrive on of that ? And that comes down to the ability to be able to listen to your body . So when you say how does an ideal world look like ? It's different for everyone , because everyone needs different things . How much do you exercise ? How much do you move ? How's your stress levels ? Where are you at in what stage of your life depends on how much we need to be eating . But knowing what foods you thrive on and what foods you don't , and if you went a little bit there then you would get a good understanding of what you should be eating .

Philip Pape 5:36

Two corollary questions come up from this Cause . I love . I love how you got into that , like you know what you feel good on . The first question that comes to mind people might wonder is what if someone has been eating a certain way for so long that , at least in their own narrative or their mind , they don't feel that that's true , that they can't claim that they know what they feel good on , perhaps because they haven't given themselves the opportunity to see the difference ? Is that a thing ?

Alana Bonnemann 6:02

So they've been following dogmatically we talked about as well a certain way . So perhaps what's their goal there and why are they doing it and are they feeling their best ? And it's often funny if you ask people like how are you , how is your life , we usually will answer oh well , as an Australian , we answer yeah , great , everything's good , I feel well , I feel productive . But if you start to strip things back and you dive into well , how are we sleeping for women ? How are you menstruating ? How are your bowel movements ? How is your energy ? Do you need to rely on coffee to get through the day ?

Alana Bonnemann 6:41

If you start to kind of dig into that , then you might get some clues into what's working and perhaps what's not working as well . So a lot of the time when checking into your body which I think it really comes down to understanding what you need is getting in contact with your body , which is , let's be fair , a lost art . We don't know how to do it because it's kind of been drummed out of us or you know , just basically forgotten is our mind takes over .

Alana Bonnemann 7:09

So if we're reading all the literature which I know is important and we need to know we need to know what's happening and how our bodies function and how different things work in our bodies .

Alana Bonnemann 7:16

This is why the academic side of nutritional science is so wonderful , but if we just rely on that and we believe or we kind of put ourselves into that statistic of what that certain research says , it takes us away from us knowing what we need , what you need , what the individual needs . So I think at the base of this , it comes down to trust , understanding and feeling how to trust yourself and to be able to let go of things that you think might be serving you , perhaps are serving you but also might not be serving you . What you said really nicely on my podcast was you know you can take everything away but then reintroduce things , start to bring things in and see , you know if your world crashes you didn't say that , but you know . Basically , see if things crumble and I I really agree with that approach and if you've been living in a restricted , start to bring things in and see how it works and then you can go from there .

Philip Pape 8:19

Yeah . So what you're saying , from what I hear , is being intentional and taking a moment to breathe and think

Body Awareness and Self-Trust

Philip Pape 8:26

and reflect on your life , because I think people do make the excuse , maybe about their food choices or their habits , and that's okay , right , like people , that's human behavior . But then to say , okay , I need to look at how , when I eat that protein bar , when I eat this food or drink this at this time of day , what is the cascade of data ? I'll call it data is what you're telling me .

Philip Pape 8:50

It's funny Cause we we joke about , like me being the sciencey guy and you being more fluid , but at the end of the day , we're still being intentional and observing and at the end , that's that's what data is right . So , to trust yourself , you want to define yourself and your identity and what's happening in this moment , and then it sounds like you can make changes from there . Let me ask you this you mentioned how food science and the food industry makes food so delicious , and does that mean that the foods that are good for you can't be delicious ? Now , obviously it's a leading question , but let's address that .

Alana Bonnemann 9:21

Yeah , well , you know Michael Pollan right ? He's an American-based author . He has a little book called Food Rules , which I mean I find food rules to be a funny name , but he says which will kind of segue into my answer he's got these different rules and one of them is when you go shopping , it's to shop the periphery of the supermarket , so you walk in and you walk into the fresh produce and then on the peripheries it's usually freezers . That's how it is in Australia , that's how it is in Germany , I assume in the States and basically everywhere that's how it is . In the middle of a supermarket is aisles of canned , packaged foods . They're foods with additives . They're there to basically have long shelf lives , emulsifiers and lists that go quite long , and you know they need to be able to hold flavor and they need to be able , yeah , to be palatable . So they do these foods taste good , but they might not feel good also just because of the different ingredients that are in them as well .

Alana Bonnemann 10:25

I think your question was can healthy foods taste good ? Is that what you're alluding to ? I mean , the thing is and I will be honest here when I first got into the health space , when I first started studying nutrition , I remember learning about all of the different benefits that nutrition can have . You know whether it was anti-inflammatory , for cardiovascular , for skin , for gut , for mood , for like , all the different things that tricks and tips that you could do in order to have a good diet . And I was not eating for the joy of eating , I was eating for the benefits of eating . So it didn't matter if it tasted good or not . Like , for example , a protein bar , do they taste that good ? Like they do the trick to get a bit of protein in , but are they like ? Do they taste that good ? So you know whether we need this amount of protein or this amount of fiber .

Alana Bonnemann 11:18

I think making sure that you're getting the right things , but also enjoying what you eat does play a huge like . It plays a huge part on it . Eating , like in cultures , it's such a huge part of what we do . We do it several times a day . It connects people . It connects with yourself . You know it is . It's the first thing we do . When we are like bottle fed or breastfed in a nurturing situation by our primary caregiver . You know they're there with us . So eating is a huge part of what we do and to some extent . Yes , it should be enjoyable and it can be enjoyable .

Philip Pape 11:54

And I love that . And , of course , I ask a lot of leading questions or a lot of kind of questions from a place of skepticism for the person listening . I love food , I'm a huge foodie . I love to prepare nutritious foods and make them taste good and , honestly , if I'm trying to eat something like , let's say , brussels sprouts , because I know they're cruciferous and they have these nutrients and I heard they taste good , and yet my whole life I've had exposure to only boiled , canned Brussels sprouts that make me gag . And then I try fresh , roasted Brussels sprouts with a little bit of salt and they're divine , like this totally different food .

Philip Pape 12:29

I think that's important . Like I've seen people comment no , it's not about enjoying your food , it's about fuel or it's about nutrition , and it's not , it's a human experience . So I think that's why I wanted to ask that early in this episode , so that people , you know , give themselves the permission to enjoy food , to actually seek out delicious ways to prepare , to purchase the ingredients , everything , but also understand when we say tasty or delicious or whatever . What do we mean ? And if you eat Oreos and they spike your dopamine but then you know you got some rumblies in your tumbly right , like Winnie the Pooh would say maybe there's something off that doesn't work for you Now . Granted , I personally I could eat an Oreo every now and then when I'm in a bulking phase and it's whatever , but I'm actually thinking of it then as just fast sugary nutrition for a lifter in a tiny , tiny percentage of my calories .

Alana Bonnemann 13:13

That's so interesting . So you see food in that respect , and I guess that's it . You're seeing food as serving a purpose for gain or loss .

Philip Pape 13:24

It's a carve out . It's a carve out for if I have to eat 4,000 calories , I literally am not going to enjoy all 4,000 calories . Probably that's a different topic for a different day .

Alana Bonnemann 13:35

Some people will , some people will eat all whole foods and it's more power , I mean , but I would I mean , yeah , I guess I would maybe put honey , or that's interesting because , yes , if you start to see just the calorie impact of the from an Oreo , of what you can get compared to , I never thought about that , to be honest . So I've never bulked , so it's never been , it's never been something that I've had to think of . And even for those who I work with , you know it's like feel good weight , sometimes it is weight gain . Okay , then how can we do it ? And I usually do it with whole foods , but I never thought to , never crossed my mind .

Philip Pape 14:09

Yeah , so , okay . So now I have another question for you , then . Do you think people should be striving for a 100% whole food diet , or that there should be some carve out or allowance or whatever term you use for whatever you know ice cream , baked goods , donuts , pizza , whatever .

Alana Bonnemann 14:31

Yes , I , I straight up , I say eat cake and feel great , like not . I mean , you're on the same page . It's not about restrictions , but I think the difference between eating a food like an Oreo in order to get a result is different to I shouldn't eat this food . Go back to your first question , because the whole point is like , because that's bad and I can't eat this cake , it's not the cake . You know , if you eat cake seven days a week , your body's going to feel it . Your body's probably going to ask for something like a salad . But likewise , if you're just eating salad seven days a week , your body's going to ask for something like a cake .

Alana Bonnemann 15:02

So no , and when you eat this cake , you want to not feel bad . You don't want it to be a terrible experience If your whole purpose is to lose weight , build muscle , whatever it is that you're trying to get with nutrition and then you're having a piece of cake or whatever it is , and you feel bad for eating it . You quickly smash it down and then you feel bad for eating it , or you quickly smash it down and then you feel bad for eating it . That's actually equally going into that diet cycle of like I want to get to a certain goal , I'm doing it , I'm motivated , I had a weak point , I feel guilt , I feel shame , I'm pathetic . Okay , I'm motivated again to lose weight again . And it's just , that cycle isn't helpful for anyone and it will usually keep people stuck in their let's call it a weight loss journey or in their health journey in order to get to a certain result .

Philip Pape 15:51

Yeah , yeah , so so then , how does the language change when you work with somebody ? And they are , you know , let's go , let's reverse engineer it . Somebody who's who's been successful and gone through this transformation and used to think of foods as good or bad , or had guilt or shame around certain foods . This binary thinking or moral thinking what does it look like when you don't have that anymore ? What is the language someone will use around , say , a processed food that they just eat it because they want to eat it and it's ?

Philip Pape 16:20

not there's no moral judgment .

Alana Bonnemann 16:21

Yeah . So in order to get to that place of no moral judgment , we need to actually address the language that we're using towards the foods . The whole industry and I get caught up as well doing it . Sometimes we will call it food good or bad , healthy , unhealthy , super junk food . And just by doing that like I went to a cafe the other day and it had clean like the cafe is like clean food , like acai bowl , like whatever

The Spectrum of Food Processing

Alana Bonnemann 16:46

it was there and I was just , I just observed that because that meant at this cafe that was clean , which meant the burger across the world . That's not clean , that's dirty . So even if you are perhaps not fully aware of like that clean or not , just the idea that it's not healthy , it's not clean .

Alana Bonnemann 17:05

I'm going to have a burger , I'm doing something bad . Oh , like , I'm doing something naughty . I often hear that , oh , I deserve a piece of cake . It's something naughty . It's not naughty to have a piece of cake or a burger . If you do it intentionally , as the one-off thing , and you enjoy it , I think that's going to hit more dopamine than eating it and then feeling stress and guilt and shame afterwards . That's probably adding more to the stress and the imbalance of your health in general if you're seeing those foods as bad . So you can start with the language and this is you know . When we say healthy , healthy food , everyone kind of knows what healthy is or unhealthy is , but by just labeling those foods it really puts that judgment on the foods and then also the people eating them get that judgment whether it's yourself eating it or if you're judging other people for eating those foods as well .

Philip Pape 17:58

Yeah , a hundred percent , it does , it does . And I even have deep seated in my brain when someone themselves declares that they're not eating something because it's quote unquote , unhealthy , and I'm there choosing to eat it . I think , wait a minute , what are you saying about me ? But then you know , it's like back in your brain we want to belong , we want to be part of that group and it kind of isolates and singles people out . So with this diet culture because that's really what it is , this conditioning , the guilt and shame on food choices what are the signs that people should look for about themselves , to kind of reflect ?

Philip Pape 18:36

on themselves with this unhealthy food guilt and maybe how it connects with their well-being .

Alana Bonnemann 18:38

I know we've talked about this a little bit , but just so someone is more aware of when and why they're doing this . Yeah , so I mean the diet culture like I grew up I I was born in the 80s , grew up in the 90s and this is when I think I mean diet culture's been around for ages , but it really hit home . Today we have more of this body positivity , but back in the 90s heroin chic was in and people you know this thin was almost synonymous for healthy . So it wasn't get healthy at any cost , it was get thin at any cost . And I've heard stories of women who used to just drink orange juice and eat cotton balls to get healthy .

Alana Bonnemann 19:17

Not to get healthy , obviously , to get thin , and so like just the idea to do that and this is perpetuated . So we're trying to get thin , so we hop on any crazy diet to then get a certain result and that's that's backwards . That is not what we should be doing . The goal is to have energy . The goal is to have a functioning menstruation . You know a monthly , not you know painful bowel movements , hair , skin and nails strong . You know focus in your eyes and when you go to work you're feeling productive and you're feeling vital . That's the goal , I think , and also for me , that's again like with this feel good weight .

Alana Bonnemann 20:00

The weight is actually a by-product of all of those things . I'll also throw sleep in there as well , you know , cause that's obviously important one , but that's , you know , that's , it's a by-product of you optimizing each area of those of that life and diet culture didn't do that . It didn't do any of that because it was all for getting thin . So the first thing is to kind of perhaps be aware of is it about my body or is it about my health ? You know , I mean , you put you work with people in weight loss and weight loss . You know making these transformations . So what is it about in the end ? What's their true , what's their true calling that they're coming to you to work with ? And it usually is about the health , it's not about how they look , although that is the catalyst for people coming in . So that's , I think , the first place to be aware of it .

Philip Pape 20:50

Yeah , that is huge , because if you're chasing the wrong goal , the feedback loop is not going to align .

Philip Pape 20:56

In other words , what you do may reinforce that misaligned goal and then you're going to keep going down that path rather than the path you choose to go down . And you're right when it comes to weight loss or even body composition . When it's more physical , some of the most inspiring stories I hear from clients and just people in the general when they start down the path of doing what you're doing is the language around how they feel , the language around how other people perceive them , not physically , but like their energy and their showing up in their health and their confidence , and that can be more inspiring than anything , in my opinion . And then if you happen to have the byproduct of the physical side , that's great . Now , what about something like we talked about strength training on my show ? What about somebody who does have a legitimate goal where they're trying to add weight to the bar and they're trying to get stronger and therefore some of these goals need to align with that ? But that is physical , not so much about how they feel . What are your thoughts on that ?

Alana Bonnemann 21:53

Well , it's interesting , Cause when we chatted , you were like , okay , this needs to happen . People have to do weights , and you know and I was like , oh , that's so interesting Is that ?

Alana Bonnemann 22:01

okay , you know it's a similar thing , different approaches , so it's crazy . So I take a very holistic approach , very fluid approach , as I said , I will often work with . What is your resistance ? What is your resistance to getting to a certain result ? Okay , I would just give an example . It's actually the opposite . So it's the like losing rather than putting on .

Alana Bonnemann 22:23

But , for example , someone who cannot start to get moving a client of mine comes to mind . It's a story of , yeah , I want to do it , but I can't actually do it , like I'm not starting , they're not taking action . It's like what's the resistance there ? I get people to literally get a pen and paper and every morning , few pages writing down what's your resistance and writing down into the point where it gets uncomfortable and like why am I even writing about this ? Keep writing , you will find the reason to what's resisting .

Alana Bonnemann 22:58

And so , for example , with this client , she came back to me . She's like oh my gosh , when I was in primary school I was in a sports lesson and I was running and the PE instructor kind of slapped her on the ass and from then on , like for her that was just , it was so violating , and she just shut down and from then on she just stopped doing movement . So to get back to this point of okay , what's at the root cause of you not taking action and you not making change is a really important factor to kind of get through that , understand that and break , kind of break through from that as well , and I think you could kind of see it . Yeah .

Philip Pape 23:38

Yeah , so resistance . So and the word I use for that is friction it's the same idea of like what is in the way , whether it's some short-term thing you're struggling with or the deeper what you suggested . I had a guest on not long ago Adam Badger was his name , and he talked about stress , and he was talking about how , a lot of times when something happens to us outside of us , we react in a way that ramps up our stress , but that reaction is rooted in something in our life that causes us to act that way where someone else might not . And so I love these ideas of getting further and further , deeper into potential root causes , without driving ourselves crazy , trying to like unpackage our entire psyche on day one right Cause it's a process .

Stephanie 24:20

It's a process .

Philip Pape 24:22

But I think that's really important . So let's talk about you mentioned . When we think of foods right , I think there's a spectrum of processing . Is is how a lot of people put it . Do you ascribe to that idea of categorizing

Finding Balance with the 80-20 Rule

Philip Pape 24:35

foods that way of like , from minimally to ultra processed , and then alcohol needs to be in there too , being a toxin and kind of a unique thing . What are your thoughts on that for people ?

Alana Bonnemann 24:45

listening . Yeah , so there , I mean I think it's generally understood that there's whole foods , processed foods and then these highly ultra processed foods . And to kind of reference Michael Pollan again , because I really like his work , I think he even calls it food-like substances .

Philip Pape 25:02

Okay , Just to make it sound gross , right ? Yeah , a little bit .

Alana Bonnemann 25:06

But so like , while I do see it like that , I think you know logically I see it like that but in the end food is food , like everything that's being sold at the supermarket is kind of food . So if you can imagine , like I have two children , I'm trying to raise them up to not have highly restrictive diets but to understand that you are going to have everything at your fingertips , like once they're 16 or even like even earlier , like I don't . We're not going to be able to control whatever they're eating . So it's the same for an adult as well . You have access to everything . And if you kind of see it all as food , and again it's actually getting back into your body and understanding what actually makes you feel good , versus the highly processed stuff which , while it tastes good , chances are it's not going to be making you feel good or function well . So yes , and then also on a biochemical level , obviously , when we've got all of these ingredients in these food-like substances , they're not benefiting the body in the way in which whole foods benefit the body as far as macro and micro nutrients go . So I mean , is it even a question to ask if it's out there ? No , because they're obviously all available . It's how we kind of associate ourselves with all of them .

Alana Bonnemann 26:22

Again , I would I try not to call them good or bad , because then it puts you back into the oh , like this is bad , I'm doing something bad . That is elevating that stress level which we want to kind of not , you know , like yeah , and it's also when we call salads good as well . It's just I'm just thinking about it because , like when stress , when stress is involved , stress elevates every single condition , whether it's a skin condition , whether it's a bowel condition , whatever you have , any type of stress is going to exacerbate that . So it's the same thing when you're thinking about nutrition , because so many people we can control our nutrition , we eat several times a day . That's something that we can control . So when we're controlling our nutrition , we eat several times a day . That's something that we can control . So when we're controlling our nutrition and we're not , we're doing things that we think are bad for us , then again this stress is spiked and that's what's going to cascade with every health concern in our body .

Alana Bonnemann 27:14

Nervous system regulation is huge . So I think , just be aware and be mindful of the foods that are out there and again , and it's hard because they're all delicious and they're all advertised to us in very delicious ways . But understanding what it is that you want and understanding what your body thrives on , and also , if you're on a journey and you want to get there , then you have to be diligent . Motivation discipline can only push you so far . Well , discipline can actually get you probably a bit further than motivation . But you need you need to challenge yourself as well . In that space of challenge you do grow . And I think if you've just been used to kind of having all foods at once , it's going to be challenging to change that . But in that challenge you'll grow .

Philip Pape 28:02

And this is where we have a lot of overlap right Is the idea that you are creating a sense of awareness , intention . I like the word diligence because it strikes me as an intentional perseverance and intentional decision-making , informed decision-making . It doesn't necessarily mean it requires massive mental energy , especially if you're reducing your resistance , your friction , like it can all come together in a way that's just pushing that comfort zone slowly over time and always improving , just like in the gym where you don't jump to a 400 pound deadlift on day one , you start with the empty bar and you move slowly you mentioned . I want to get back to the feeling good part and get more objective and dig into that so that the listener understands . What does she mean by feeling good ?

Philip Pape 28:47

A little story about my daughter . We have two daughters , 11 and 13 . And my oldest daughter , for a while there had some anxiety about going to restaurants and I think the reason was she had a few experiences where it just didn't work well for her system , whatever she ate at a restaurant , because we eat so much prepared at home and my wife is just a great cook and she doesn't use many ingredients and you know we go to a restaurant like once every two or three weeks and it's like all the oils and sugars and fats , and again it's not the good or bad , it's just how do you feel Like . So she would do that and it would get .

Philip Pape 29:20

She eventually had a little bit of anxiety . We said , hey , why don't we go out ? And she just wouldn't enjoy it at all , no matter what it was . And eventually we started to become more intentional , like you said with her about hey , we are going to a restaurant , let's look at the menu , let's figure out together what might make sense and then understand that it's , you know , pretty close to what mommy makes at home . So , you know , give it a shot and then kind of see how you feel afterward . So I think that's a relevant story , but I want to understand from you for the listener how do you know what feels good ?

Alana Bonnemann 29:54

Yeah , well , it's interesting because her that level of anxiety is an indication , like I don't want to say red flag , but it's a , it's a big , it's an obvious sign that something is not going okay . So this can come in , like I mean , yeah , emotional things can come up stress and also we know that our brain and our gut are tight , like the brain access , like we know it's affected and what comes first . If your gut balance is also like your microbiome is out , then it affects your mental health and vice versa . So we know that mood or mental or emotional aspects do play into it . We also need to think about the physical effects that we get , like are we getting digestive cramps afterwards or reflux or just lethargy ? You know what's happening with what we're eating or are we getting like super excited from like a bag of Oreos or whatever it is , like the sugar hits ? So I think understanding how you're feeling because , okay , like I'm going to put this back down to a very basic thing the body has a life force that like flows through it and you can feel this life force , like if you clap your hands together , force that like flows through it and you can feel this life force , like if you clap your hands together , your hands start to tingle and you'll feel the life force dropping into your body to feel those feelings .

Alana Bonnemann 31:15

And I don't want to bring it back to emotions all the time , but I think , like a lot of the times I'm working with people , it does come back to how they're feeling , whether they are stressed , whether they have anxiety . Those feelings also have a certain vibration in our body as well . They're not something to suppress and it's really good that you kind of talk through with your daughter . Okay , how can we do this ? Because they're there telling us something Anger , for example . We need to listen to our anger . Or , if we're having guilt , listen to that . And what anxiety ? What is it trying to tell us and why is it trying to tell us that ?

Alana Bonnemann 31:45

So I've totally diverged , but I think when , like when you , when we want to think about what feels good , you can have the mental side or the physical side of it . Sometimes they're conjoined and then you want to also tap in and listen to that and also perhaps honor that as well , because I think sometimes in your body it'd be like I don't actually want that . For example , if you've eaten breakfast and then you're going out for brunch and you're not hungry but you're eating , to be polite , because it's brunch . Then , even though your body's saying , but I'm not hungry , you kind of override it and then eat anyway . Even though your body's saying , but I'm not hungry , you kind of override it and then eat anyway . So in what ways can we kind of honor our body and listen to what our body's saying ?

Philip Pape 32:35

I think that's the core of it . That piece is actually very powerful in my opinion because if you go , if you extrapolate it to something like alcohol , which is so socially conditioned and , I'll say , twisted in terms of how it's portrayed right as this wonderful thing , and you think of the pressure people put on themselves just to imbibe because they're with people , because of the social whatever , that's kind of the extreme case of it , but I do like the idea that your hunger cues for example you alluded to your context of where you are with people is a variable , it's a very strong variable in your environment and you have control . You don't have control over that , but you have control over what you do within that situation . So understanding why you're making your decisions is really important . Speaking of why , when you go to the grocery store , because now we can get a little practical , get a little more practical .

Philip Pape 33:24

This is all practical , I shouldn't say it's not , it's all right . They go to the grocery store now and that's a powerful place to be , because that is where you're purchasing all the things that are going to go in your body over the next week or so . Potentially if you cook a lot at home , which I recommend , but to each his own . That balances the . We'll say nutrition quality , cause we don't want to say good or bad , we don't want to say healthy , we want to say like the quality of the food for what you need , and feel with the enjoyment , with the practicality , with the indulgences , like how do we make it all work ?

Alana Bonnemann 33:56

We go to the grocery store . Yeah , I love that . Well , I find , to be honest , I find the grocery stores to be a rather depleting and depressing place . I mean , in Germany I feel like when I go to the fresh produce , all year round I have capsicums , paprika I'm not sure what you call them cucumbers , tomatoes and salad . I feel like the whole year these things are on offer and that is very like . That is a very limited amount of food .

Alana Bonnemann 34:23

So if you want to kind of get the most out of what you're eating , you need diversity . You need to have diversity . I like to follow the . I like to follow the kind of what do you call it ? I guess , let's say , rule If I have eaten it yesterday , don't eat it again today .

Alana Bonnemann 34:39

So this way you're just changing up what you're eating , and there's some people who don't like having a lot of variety . But this means if you're eating apples like , just change the type of apples that you're eating . I guess , when things are in season , to also kind of eat with the seasons as well . But this is also really difficult . I mean , you can't . That means , you know , for us in Germany , probably in the States as well

Navigating Social Eating Scenarios

Alana Bonnemann 34:59

six months of the year it's winter and you can't have a lot of diversity . There's like potatoes and cabbage . So you need to get kind of clever and see how you can perhaps it's frozen stuff , you know to kind of bring in that diversity . And then when you are thinking of diversity , because you still want to have fun , you don't want it to just be fruits and veggies .

Alana Bonnemann 35:22

You can't just live on fruits and veg and a good quality protein . You want to be able to kind of have fun . So I don't follow like a cheat day or a certain time , but it comes back to that , really said over and over again , this 80-20 rule . You want to make sure that the foods that you are eating they are as whole and fresh as possible but then also have room for fun . And I think if you've strictly followed something , a high regime , then it might be hard to relax a bit , and if you've strictly just always relaxed , it's hard to have a good regime . But with practice and it does take practice , practice is the progress in this you find a way of what I thrive on and what I can kind of add to .

Alana Bonnemann 36:10

I think , with the foods that , let's say , less nutritious , the ones that are at least highly processed , the food like substances , why are we eating them ? We need to kind of strip back to okay , how did we sleep ? Do we need energy ? Are we grabbing them for quick energy fixes ? Are we coming back from a week of complete , you know , hard work ? We're exhausted , we're stressed . Okay , we're eating them to kind of , you know , put down that feeling , or are we feeling sad ? Or are we bored and therefore eating those foods ? I think it's not necessary . It's what I tried to allude to before . It's not the foods , necessarily , but the reasons why we're eating them play a bigger part in the problem of them . Everyone knows how to eat healthy . If you say eat healthy , people know what that means . But actually doing that is the difficult step , like the actual act of doing it is what makes it hard . So yes , variety is number one , diversity variety and diversity .

Alana Bonnemann 37:08

uh proportion so 80 , 20 , and then yeah , with also like moderation it's you know , yeah , moderation is everything as well .

Stephanie 37:20

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment . It was just well , here are your goals , here's the best way that you're going to achieve it , and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help , and Phillip really embodied all of those qualities . I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits .

Philip Pape 38:06

It's simple , but we do like to complicate things and until you've done it intentionally , you don't know what you are capable of . I mean , that's the way I see it is that right now , as we talk about food , I'm thinking of different foods because it's about lunchtime here . But I also thought what came to my head is the more I personally have gone toward this , you know , nutrient-dense , whole food , diverse approach , and I have a long way to go . Like we all do , we have things that we want to improve with the more I those foods and actually don't crave or want or need the quote unquote indulgences as much to the extent that , like , I can think of a bowl of frozen shrimp with some cocktail sauce as a really tasty , delicious afternoon snack that I would crave and that's awesome . Like , for me , that's great because I consume protein and some taste and whatever . It satisfies the all the things .

Philip Pape 38:53

So the 80 , 20 rule we use it a lot in this industry because I think it is effective . I think the idea of 80 , 20 permeates a lot of things . Actually , there's the Pareto principle where , like , 20% of your effort leads to 80% of the results and I think same thing here is that 80 , 20 is a good split . But when we say that , how does someone concretely do that ? And I ask because we have different approaches . If I had a client who's just tracking their food , it literally is math . It's just like , let's make sure the calorie , like 10 , 20% of your calories effectively are , you know , you're not crazy , like half and half like processed foods . Let's say , how do you do it when you're tracking in other ways or not tracking , or however you'd like to do it with clients ?

Alana Bonnemann 39:34

So I focus on what we add in first , like what can we add into your diet ? Like when I first start working with someone , I don't ever strip anything away . Like , similar to you , I don't want to restrict anything and usually when you add things into the diet and that becomes a new way of how you do things , it just naturally pushes things out . And while you don't necessarily see that , I mean you like , sometimes with my clients I keep like a food and mood journal what are you eating and how do you feel ? So they're writing it down . There , is that awareness there and that assertiveness . But , yes , it's not what you see to be like , oh , I've done this and tick , it's kind of done . It's more of a okay , like I realize that this week I haven't , yeah , eaten this , that and the other .

Alana Bonnemann 40:18

But in saying that , while we're bringing in foods , I'm also working on the reasons that they would grab for those 20% rule , you know , in the first place Because , again , if your way of dealing with boredom or exhaustion is to go for food , that's always going to be your default , no matter how , how hard you try to stay disciplined at some point you can do it now . For a few months . You can even do it for a year , but if then something happens that just makes you break , then you're going to default back to that . So we need to change that default loop , and so it kind of works . You're working in two ways we're working to break the cycle and also just add in things that are then going to make you also not want them to .

Philip Pape 41:05

Love it . Change the default loop that hits it right on the head with that phrase . Right , Because it's what is the thing you're always coming back to when life throws its worst at you , right that's the habit you want .

Philip Pape 41:18

It's not what do you deviate from because of life . So that's powerful In that case . One of the things that many people face regularly is all the social things right , going to restaurants , being asked to go to happy hour , wanting to go to a party , vacation , travel , all the things . And you know there's so many like download my you know travel eating guide , download my travel training guide , and it's like all the traditional things like plan ahead and look at the menu and all that . But how do you get people to become comfortable in their default while maybe doing having that kind of lifestyle ?

Alana Bonnemann 41:53

To honestly , to start off , I don't .

Alana Bonnemann 41:55

People are like I'm going on holidays to Italy , I'm like enjoy Italy . So at the start it's like that . At the start it's like that , and that's the thing is , on holidays your 20 becomes your 80 and your 80 becomes your 20 . And if you're on holidays for longer than three weeks , after some point you probably get constipated and then realize that you need to change and kind of go back to the ways that you're doing things . But as people become more understanding that this way of living , living aligned with their health and I also call it your higher healer Once you tap into something which makes you feel completely different from inside to out , you are unapologetically kind of show up for yourself .

Alana Bonnemann 42:39

The drinking culture is a huge one , because to go to a bar I live in Germany to go to a bar and everyone's drinking beer and you kind of ask for like a water , sparkling water you know people will say you know like what's , what's wrong with you ?

Alana Bonnemann 42:52

Or oh yeah , you're the healthy and you know at some point , like I stopped caring , like I care what you . Or oh yeah , you're the healthy and you know at some point , like I stopped caring , like I care what you think , but I care about what I think about myself more and I'm living my life in a certain way because I , like , this is how I want to live . So I think you know , when you start , you know in your perhaps not fully committed , then , yes , go on holidays and enjoy it and go to the bar every now and then and live that life , that's totally fine . But for the people who are then aligned with their authentic way of living and say , no , this is what I stand by and this is how I do it , you can then also , but to do that , you have to find what your truth means to you , and that is I'm packing all that uncomfortable stuff that you don't want to do in the first meeting .

Philip Pape 43:39

For sure , and you want people to fall on their faces sometimes and , like , I saw this funny meme that says , even if you fall on your face , you're still moving forward , right , which is the truth of it .

Philip Pape 43:51

And since they have a guideline and a structure they're trying to follow . And again , I always come back to engineering words , but effectively , what you're saying right is be intentional . Then you know when you're deviating , because you're being more aware of what's happening in your body . So , let's say , you do go to a restaurant and I say restaurant because that is where some people struggle , right , because it's easy to just over-consume and over-indulge with , even if you are thinking I'm going to have lean meats and vegetables because those taste good , and I'm gonna do this , and that you've got , of course , the alcohol is its own thing You've got the appetizer flowing , you've got all the salads and then the food and the dessert , potentially there for the taking , and you're trying to enjoy this social experience . It's like people are thinking , okay , great , like five days , six days out of the week , my default is this wonderful thing where I'm in tune with my body , and yet I go to a restaurant , and how do I still do that ? Right , that's kind of what I'm getting at . People are wondering about .

Alana Bonnemann 44:43

Yeah , that's a good question , because when you go to the restaurant , like at the end of the day , like when you see food as calories in , calories out , so to say , or I have to eat this many or I can't eat that many it becomes really difficult . Because then you know it's like oh , a beer , is this mention ? Okay , but I'm also having this meal . Oh , I don't want a dessert too , and then you kind of it becomes stressful . But if you eat till satiation , like and again honoring your body , I don't want to eat anymore . Or like you know , I'm listening to your hunger cues then do you eat just to like stuff yourself ?

Alana Bonnemann 45:24

And that might the answer might be yes , because it tastes good and like . No judgment there . But you know , if you are living the life where you're like I'm eating because I'm hungry and I'm stopping when I'm full and you're aware of that , then that actually changes the whole entire meal eating out experience . So I think that's kind of how I . Yeah , because listening to our hunger cues and our satiation cues are one of the biggest parts of tapping into our bodies . So I think that's one of the largest parts there .

Philip Pape 45:54

And that's very consistent with everything you've said today , which is being in tune with that and letting that drive decisions in the moment and not having to artificially constrain yourself via whatever it is right . It's funny you say that because I think of going to an Italian restaurant around here where it's almost all pasta dishes with rich sauces and things , and of course , you can choose to have different , you can choose other things on there , and I know if I have a Alfredo sauce it's probably not going to feel great . So right there I'm thinking okay , my body tells me maybe I want a lighter sauce just to begin with , but even if I do choose to have it , half of that's going to go in the takeout box , Like for sure , because you're right .

Philip Pape 46:39

You , unless you're mindlessly eating , which is another piece of this is intention .

Stephanie 46:40

My wife , my kids and I we all have . We have four boxes Every time we go to the restaurant .

Philip Pape 46:41

This is lunch tomorrow , which is great , because then you save money and you have more food ready to go for the next day .

Alana Bonnemann 46:44

Yeah , but it comes down having this intention and tapping in with your body , like what we first started talking about . Why is there so much fear around food ? And I think , when you're not sure what you should be eating and how you should be eating it , which is aligned with you know , how much exercise are you doing , depending on how much you need ? Are you listening to your body's cues ? Am I hungry , am I full ? Is it appetite ?

Alana Bonnemann 47:08

Appetite's the psychological want for foods , like you walk past Subway and you're like , oh , actually I do want a Subway . That's

A Holistic Approach to Self-Mastery

Alana Bonnemann 47:15

your appetite , that's not hunger , hunger is . You know you might be lightheaded , your stomach has like some pains in it , like that's the hunger . And so when you yes , when you kind of align with what your goals are and why you're doing this whole transformation , aligning it with exactly how you feel in your body , you become perhaps like more convicted in your food choices and you know I'm making these right choices and there is less of that . Oh , like carbs are bad , I'm scared of carbs . Can't have a cake because , oh , it's bad , and that all will then kind of fall away .

Philip Pape 47:49

Yeah , I'm hearing that you become confident in your choices , you own them , you become the , you know , the master of your own , your own choices , which is a great place to be . So , as we wrap up cause I think we covered , we covered a lot of great things at all , interconnected ultimately , which is wonderful , and that happens . Is there anything you wish I did ask and if so , what is your answer ?

Alana Bonnemann 48:09

Oh , that's a lovely question . I think perhaps is there and you also touched on this the word holistic . Is there a more holistic approach to self-mastery , optimizing ourselves , getting in contact with our own self , and how can we do that ? I think a holistic approach , which is the movement , the strength as you talk about , is one aspect . The biochemical , the toxins , also the nutrition that we put into our body , is the second . The mental and emotional aspect is the third and then I think all encompassing in that is also perhaps I almost want to say spirituality to it , to understanding that our bodies I mean people call our bodies temples you always hear this like your body's your temple .

Alana Bonnemann 49:00

I feel like your bodies are actually inherited , like a lifelong inherited mansion that you kind of get from your forefathers , and it's filled with habits , these cycles and the way that , the things that we triggered us , perhaps even why we are the way we are , and we need to do some deep work on that first , or at some point to do some work there , because this connects you with a higher version of yourself , a higher , a higher power , which which really then drives you to make the choices , not because you think you should or not because society says you should , but because you genuinely want to be at that place .

Alana Bonnemann 49:45

I think , yes , you didn't have to ask that question . But when I think about the underlying basis of why I do what I do and how I do everything , I think that is also it , because ultimately , in the end of the day , I would love to see in everyone like a healer in every home . I would love to have a space , a space and a healing area in your house where you have the ability to heal . My dad's a chiropractor and the chiropractic philosophy is the power that made the body , is a power that heals the body , and I genuinely stick by that . And of course , food and of course movement has something to do with that . Of course our mental health does , but then again also the spiritual too .

Philip Pape 50:22

I love that . I love that . Yeah , I'm definitely open to many of these ideas and to me it comes down to purpose and something deeper and philosophical that we can't necessarily explain . And I love how you said we're connected to our forefathers because we are , I think , physiologically and like genetically , but also there's something that's passed through us culturally and and in some other ways we can't explain potentially . So it's great , the mysteries of the universe , beautiful , all right , we love that .

Stephanie 50:51

We love that .

Philip Pape 50:53

So , all right , all right , we want people to find you and I'll definitely be including a link to your podcast , since , um , you know , again , we have another conversation where you interviewed me there . But where do you want folks ?

Alana Bonnemann 51:02

to reach out . Come to alannabonnemancom . I mean that's , if you want to reach out . I guess that's where I hang . Instagram is also there , youtube , linkedin , they're all there , um , but I think the hub of everything I do is at alannabonnemancom .

Philip Pape 51:17

Cool , We'll make it simple . Podcast alannabonnemancom . You can find all of your resources . You're a very special person , Alanna . I've had lots and lots of interviews , but this was so positive , so much energy and enthusiasm , and I love the fact that we are different in so many ways but also care about the same thing and have purpose and spirituality in abundance . I think so . Thank you again for coming on .

Alana Bonnemann 51:40

Thank you as well for having me . I also very much enjoy that we have similar outlooks and work in very different ways , but get the same result and also have the same approach . We're always learning .

Philip Pape 51:53

We learn from each other , so thank you so much for coming on . Likewise , we're always learning , yeah , and we learn from each other , so thank you so much for coming on .

Alana Bonnemann 51:58

Likewise . Thank you , Philip .