The Carnivore vs. Fiber Debate

Philip Pape 0:01

The carnivore diet community has declared war on fiber . They claim it's completely unnecessary , even harmful , that humans evolved to thrive on meat alone and plants are just making us sick . Meanwhile , mainstream nutrition science treats fiber as one of the most important dietary components for health and longevity . So someone has to be wrong . Here Today , we're cutting through the noise with actual data . You'll discover what fiber really does in your body beyond keeping you regular , why eliminating it might be sabotaging your goals , and how to make an evidence-based decision about fiber that's right for your situation .

Philip Pape 0:49

Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency . I'm your host , certified nutrition coach , philip Pape , and today we're going to settle one of the most heated debates in nutrition Do you actually need fiber , or is it just an outdated piece of dogma from the plant lovers ? The carnivore movement is growing really fast , and I think this is an important topic , because people are claiming that eliminating all plants , including fiber , has transformed their health , and they may not say you need to eliminate fiber , but they may say it's no big deal to eliminate it . And then , on the flip side , we have decades , decades of research that link fiber intake to everything from weight management to disease prevention , to improved gut health , which happens to be linked closely with a lot of these positive outcomes . And what bothers me about this debate is that both sides are making claims without looking at or describing the complete picture of what fiber does to your body . And of course , I lean more heavily on criticizing the carnivore camp because they're just outright dismissing evidence . But sometimes the other camps will go a little bit overboard on why we want fiber or maybe they'll miss parts of the picture . So today , with this episode , I want to examine the evidence , the biological mechanisms in our body , and then figure out what approach makes sense for you , because you may need more or less fiber and you will thrive on a certain level for your goals . Before we break down that controversy , if you will just want a simple approach to your nutrition that is flexible , that doesn't cut things out but rather includes the things you need , that sets the right calorie and macro goals , fat loss , muscle building phases , without any hype , without any claims , without any restriction , just practical strategies , download my free nutrition one-on-one guide . This has a focus on flexible dieting and body composition . It's a roadmap to build something sustainable , something that you can live with and enjoy while still getting your results . It's just simple no fluff . Based on the evidence . Click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free to grab your copy of my Nutrition 101 Guide for Body Composition .

Philip Pape 2:59

Okay , so let's start with the fiber debate . What is really

What Fiber Actually Does

Philip Pape 3:02

going on ? I think it is not about fiber . I think this is really about how we approach nutrition decisions in general . Do we make choices based on short-term feelings and I mean feeling in the objective way , like how you feel , or the anecdotal short-term results , short-term being as little as a few weeks or month , but as long as one to two years in some cases ? Or do we look at longer-term data five , 10 , 20 years , lifetime data ? Do we consider the isolated effects ? Or do we think about how everything connects , because our bodies are guess what a system ?

Philip Pape 3:36

Fiber itself , in fact , touches almost every aspect of your health and physique in ways that you might not even realize . That even I'm learning more and more about . It's fascinating your ability to build muscle , to lose fat , to maintain energy , to be fuller , to prevent disease and have long-term health yes , longevity . All of this is influenced by what's happening in your gut gut health . Now , this is not a gut health episode per se , but you are massively changing what's going on down there when you eliminate fiber , and it takes a while for that to happen , and we don't have a lot of research that shows all of the negative effects that are probably going to be realized down the road . We do have research on all the positive outcomes from including it . So , just to make an assumption , there's probably an opposite effect when you get rid of something that helps . We'll see , we'll see . That's part of the conversation we're going to get to today .

Philip Pape 4:30

The carnivore folks are going to tell you that the fact that fiber is so impactful on everything in your body is exactly why it works to eliminate it . They're going to say you eliminate the problematic component , you eliminate your problems . But let's talk about what fiber actually does , because most people are thinking of fiber first and foremost as like the scrub brush Sorry to be gross . It cleans you out , right , keep things moving , bms , all that jazz but that's maybe like 20% 10 to 20% of what's really happening when you eat fiber , and this is what I used to believe too , that it was just for being regular . But it's a lot , lot more than that when you consume fiber , it travels through your digestive system unchanged until it reaches your colon and then something remarkable , something fascinating , happens .

Philip Pape 5:15

The bacteria there that are living in your gut and you have trillions of bacteria they use that fiber as fuel to produce compounds . Those compounds are short chain fatty acids . And these aren't just waste products , right ? People say , oh , they're waste products of your digestion . They are molecules that go into your bloodstream , they travel throughout your body and they have an impact on your inflammation , on your immune function , even on how your muscle tissue responds to protein responds to protein . Yeah , fiber intake can potentially affect your muscle building and I've worked with a lot of lifters who have strength trained for many years .

Philip Pape 5:51

A lot of them went on carnivore because they couldn't quite figure out how to control their body fat , their belly fat , all that stuff . And we gradually reintroduced plants and a more diverse diet and their gains started to take off like they hadn't in a long time . Part of it was carbohydrates , for sure . Part of it was fiber , and it all worked just fine . In fact , they felt better , they had better outcomes . But I don't want to anecdotally say well , just because you feel better in the moment , that means it works . That is not what I want to say , because that's exactly the claim carnivore folks make , and it's misleading , because short-term results may belie long-term results .

Philip Pape 6:25

There's more , though , beyond this right Soluble fiber . That's the one that creates like a gel in your substance . It's like a gel-like substance in your stomach . That's what slows down the absorption of nutrients , and so that is what's really awesome for blood sugar control . People talk about eating balanced meals , managing your blood sugar . It does that , but not only that . It dramatically increases your satiety signals , helping you feel satisfied with fewer calories . Now you might say , well , protein does that , and I have lots of meat in my diet . Great , I agree . Like increasing your protein in your diet does help tremendously with satiety , but fiber also has a huge impact on satiety , to a level where , when you're going after some aggressive fat loss , for example , it could be the difference between being able to sustain your diet and not being able to really stick with it for long enough .

Philip Pape 7:15

There's also something really fascinating about fiber in today's context . You guys heard of GLP-1 , the hormone targeted by the weight loss drugs like Ozembic . Well , guess what fiber does ? It increases the production of GLP-1 , the hormone targeted by the weight loss drugs like Ozembic . Well , guess what fiber does ? It increases the production of GLP-1 . It's kind of like a small

The Gut Microbiome Connection

Philip Pape 7:29

micro , natural version of what people are paying all this money for , not to the same dosage , absolutely it's not going to have the same degree of impact . Let's be nuanced about it . But just by eating plants like eating what you should be eating a diverse diet you're going to actually improve your production of GLP-1 . By the way , you know what else can improve . It Is strength training . This is not about strength training , but I always have to slip that in .

Philip Pape 7:53

Another thing is related to hormones . We've seen that fibers link to higher testosterone levels in men , better hormone balance in women and the cascading effect of all of that , like affecting your sleep quality and your mood and your cognitive function . It all occurs through the gut brain axis . You know some people call the gut the second brain . That is what we are talking about . That's why I said initially fibers interwoven in almost everything that's going on . So when someone says is just about pooping , they're missing like 80% , 90% of what fiber actually does , and to kind of frame that , then what does it do ?

Philip Pape 8:33

We actually want to talk about what happens when you get rid of it when you go , say , full carnivore and you eliminate fiber completely . And this is where we have to be careful , because the effects build on each other over time and they're not all obvious at first . And , to be fair , we don't have a lot of long-term studies about the negative effects , of the potential negative effects of these diets long-term . We just haven't studied them long enough , like we've studied other diets , like , for example , the Mediterranean diet , which is chock full of fiber . And guess what ? People have incredible long-term longevity outcomes on that diet . They're high in carbs too , by the way . So there's this honeymoon period .

Philip Pape 9:11

We have to address this because this is where , like , for example , the YouTube hater comments every time I talk about how great carbs are and they say , no , I went carnivore and everything got solved and you don't need fiber . Well , many people initially do feel better when they eliminate fiber , especially if they had digestive issues . It's almost like a confirmation bias the bloating stops , the gas goes away and they're like yeah , see , fiber plants , those were the problem . But what's really happening is that you're eliminating the immediate symptoms , but you're not addressing the underlying cause . How do I know this ? Well , I know this because I've worked with so many clients to reintroduce fiber-containing foods and carbs without the issues recurring , and I've said this on a previous episode you cannot use an anecdote to prove a claim , but you can use an anecdote to disprove a claim , and what I would like to disprove here by saying I've seen many people who went carnivore and eliminated their symptoms and then reintroduced plants and carbs in the right way and the symptoms did not come back .

Philip Pape 10:16

Well , right , there disproves the claim that it was carnivore and carnivore alone that that solved the underlying root cause . No , the root cause in their case was certain foods didn't work for them , period , and we just eliminated those foods and reintroduced the rest . That's all it is . And I hope for anybody listening who's doing carnivore and , like you , know what I really miss my sandwiches , or I miss my fruit , right , or I miss my rice or my oats or anything . Man , I just had a client he knows who he's talking about he's going to laugh because I've mentioned him a few times who just started eating oats and he's like man , where has this been my whole life ? It's amazing . Anyway , we've got to not make universal claims that , okay , I went on carnivore , cut out plants and fiber , therefore , and felt better . Therefore , it's because of all plants and fiber . That is a false correlation , or it's a correlation , but it's not cause and effect , it's not causality .

Philip Pape 11:06

So let's talk about your gut bacteria . What happens here then , when

Examining Anti-Fiber Arguments

Philip Pape 11:11

you don't have the fiber in there ? Well , they start starving without their fiber fuel and the beneficial species that produce , for example , anti-inflammatory compounds start to die off . Really good species of bacteria we want in our gut the kind of things that they put into probiotics and you know that you supplement with those are dying off because you're not feeding them and they get replaced by bacteria that do thrive in low fiber environments . And we've identified many of these species of bacteria and found that those tend to be more inflammatory and less beneficial . But again , it takes quite a while for this effect to accumulate . We're talking not weeks or months , but potentially years and as your microbiome shifts , certain things are going to start to weaken or break down .

Philip Pape 11:56

You know you've heard of leaky gut . I still think the evidence is out on that being fully the way it's described . I think it's described in a colloquial way where , like , inflammatory compounds leak into your bloodstream and then you have an immune response . But there is a connectedness between your gut and your bloodstream . That is real . And when you don't have beneficial bacteria and all you have are these I'll call them harmful or less beneficial bacteria then it makes sense that this is going to accumulate over time in terms of the response on your body . So long-term is where what we have to look at . Studies that have been following people on very low fiber diets do show increased rates of cardiovascular disease , certain cancers , metabolic dysfunction , over time . We are talking about 15% to 30% increases in disease risk , based on large population studies .

Philip Pape 12:52

And what concerns me is that the carnivore success stories or anecdotes those are all short-term . The people that comment on my YouTube videos and say you're full of it , I did carnivore , I feel great , and they've been on carnivore for two months or maybe six months or maybe a year , but it's nowhere near long enough to tell what's going on . It doesn't mean it's not a fantastic elimination diet I don't discount that that's the case to eliminate something that's causing you issues and then reintroduce , one at a time , things that don't . We just don't have good data on what happens to people who eliminate all plants for decades . And if you want to participate in a massive uncontrolled experiment and roll the dice on . Eh , maybe it won't be so bad for me , even though I know a diverse diet that includes fiber is great for me . You go right ahead and do that .

Philip Pape 13:37

I'm just giving you the warning bells with this episode that there are long-term consequences potentially to those actions , Um , let alone the diet just not being sustainable or enjoyable . I mean , if you can only eat three foods , like a little kid , and not eat your fruits and vegetables and I'm sorry to be snarky , cause that's honestly what it amounts to Um , and be happy that way that I'd like to meet you , because the vast majority of people I've met who are in carnivore will say , yeah , they miss their ice cream or they miss their pizza or they miss , you know something , some whole foods like fruit or oatmeal or something like that . Again , I'm throwing out anecdotes too , so maybe I'm falling prey to the same problem that other people have , but again , to me , the anecdote is disproving the universal claim that carnivore is the bee's knees by saying , no , you know what ? There's plenty of people that thrive on a plant-based or not plant-based , but a diverse diet . Not only that , we have good evidence , like the Mediterranean diet , for example I think I already mentioned that that show phenomenal long-term outcomes from having a diverse diet , which makes a lot of sense , and I understand the appeal to carnivore approach . It has some level of elegance and simplicity , right . It's attractive that you just eat these foods , and there are a lot of foods that many of us love , like animal products . Yeah , who doesn't love that , except vegans and vegetarians ? And many people , yes , do report initial improvements , right .

Philip Pape 14:58

But what I want to do now is analyze , or examine the arguments against fiber . The first claim is that fiber isn't essential . It isn't essential , meaning you don't have to consume it to survive , and there's no RDA . Yeah , that's technically true , that's technically true . You know what else ? Carbs technically aren't essential , and yet we know there are massive benefits of carbs . And so just because they're not essential or there's not an RDA for it , doesn't mean that it is not extremely beneficial and almost necessary to have a really solid approach to your nutrition and your health .

Philip Pape 15:32

The second claim is that fiber causes digestive problems . Well , sometimes it does , especially if you increase it too quickly or if you have underlying gut issues , or if you find certain foods that happen to have fiber inflammatory . Right , you may have IBS , you may have some other bowel condition and then , absolutely , you're gonna be more sensitive to certain types of fiber not necessarily all fiber , though . I know plenty of folks with IBS who they just have to be aware of what fiber works for them and so I think the solution here again isn't just eliminate everything and move on with your life . It's maybe eliminate and reintroduce or identify what's causing you problems . That's the second claim . You can't just say all fiber causes digestive problems .

Philip Pape 16:15

Claim number three is that you can get everything you need from animals . This is maybe one of the worst claims of all of these , and I think this ignores just some very obvious nutritional gaps , and I don't know how you get around these except potentially with lots and lots of supplementation . But then your argument kind of falls flat , because then you're saying that you need those things . You're just going to get them from a different source . You know where's your vitamin C , your folate , your magnesium , the thousands of beneficial plant compounds that protect against cellular damage . You know that aren't necessarily listed on the nutrition label , right ? Yeah , you're not going to develop scurvy , but we're not optimizing for not dying of deficiency diseases . We're optimizing for peak performance and longevity , right , the word thrive always comes to mind in this context . So that's the third claim , that , yeah , you can get everything from animal products . Not true at all . There are so many beneficial things in plants that you're probably gonna be sorry you don't have long-term , especially for the gut health .

Philip Pape 17:12

The fourth claim is that humans evolved eating mostly meat . These ancestral arguments you know , I used to fall for them when I was back in my paleo days and people would cherry pick the anthropological evidence . It doesn't support it . Our ancestors were opportunists . They ate whatever was available , and that includes significant amounts of plant matter in most environments , just like there's no plant-only environments . I did that episode on the Blue Zone hoax and how just about every society on the planet eats a diverse diet based on what's available to them . Some may eat a lot of honey , some may eat a lot of goat's milk . It really depends

Building Muscle and Optimizing Fiber

Philip Pape 17:46

. And what we evolved eating isn't necessarily optimal for modern life and modern goals . Or else you know what ? You probably wouldn't be eating nearly the amount of protein you need . Let's just be honest . If you just naturally ate , you probably wouldn't have enough protein . And of course , I know what the carnivore guys are saying . They're like see , that's why you need carnivore . No , that's a false argument that we're making segment uh segment .

Philip Pape 18:09

The next segment that I have in my notes is to talk about the uh what the research shows for studies with people eating fiber . So if you look at large long-term studies involving millions of people , there is a pattern and that is that higher fiber intake is consistently associated with lower rates of chronic disease , with better weight management , with longer lifespan . And if all the claims fall on their face , why wouldn't you just allow yourself to eat fiber which gives you more options for food ? Like to me , that is the simplest argument . It's like now you've um re , you've given your permission to actually enjoy many , many more foods in your diet . If you truly and absolutely a bore , you hate all forms of carbs and plants or anything with fiber . You just absolutely hate them all and you're not willing to include them for any reason , even though it could be beneficial to get over your pickiness and train yourself to like them which you can do , by the way then I don't know what to say .

Philip Pape 19:06

I don't know what to say that doesn't seem to strike me as the vast , vast majority of people . I think the vast majority of people have normal lives where they go to parties , they travel , they go places where the food isn't in their control and they just want to enjoy themselves , not in a hedonistic way , but in a flexible way , what we talk about here all the time . If we want to talk about specific studies , there's a 2019 meta-analysis in the Lancet . All right , a meta-analysis is a study of studies and it found that people consuming the most fiber I mentioned this , I alluded to this earlier had a 15 to 30% lower risk of death from all causes it's called all cause mortality compared to those eating the least fiber . That is a massive effect size that shows up across different populations and different study designs . You hear what I just said People consuming the most fiber had way lower risk of death than people who consumed the least fiber .

Philip Pape 20:01

And what's most important is that the amount isn't that much . It doesn't mean you need to eat 50 grams of fiber daily . It means that most people are going to benefit from adequate fiber intake . What is adequate ? Well , because there's no RDA , as the carnivore people will tell you . We've seen from , we've had to extract this from research comparing these different levels , and it suggests that it's around 25 to 40 grams , and I've used a formula before of 14 grams for every thousand calories you eat .

Philip Pape 20:31

And now I tend to simplify . I say look , if you're a woman , go for 25 . If you're a man , go for 35 . You'll be golden . If you're higher than that , great , no big deal . There is such a thing as potentially too high digestively or hunger-wise . You know , you might not even be able to eat enough things like that , but for the vast majority of people their fiber is probably too low .

Philip Pape 20:50

So what's really the point of this whole thing ? The point here is not to choose extremes of anything , even how much fiber you eat . It's to optimize it for you . Optimize . Look at your situation . If you're dealing with digestive issues , you can work with a practitioner . You can work with a medical professional , functional medicine folks there's some good ones out there that work on this Nutrition coaches of course I'm going to plug my own work as well and you can address the root causes . And part of that might involve reducing or eliminating fiber temporarily , absolutely , as in elimination diet , because you may not know what you have and you need to get down to the root cause . But I will tell you what the root cause is .

Philip Pape 21:25

Not gonna be all fiber , just eliminate fiber or eliminate plants . The goal should be to eventually include beneficial plant foods as your gut health improves and why not ? That's great , that's really empowering , that's freeing , that's flexible . And when you do so , you're going to focus on fiber variety , because different types of fiber feed different bacterial species to the level of it could be beneficial to eat different types of apples , different types of oranges or whatever fruits you like , because of all the different compounds in the different species or breeds , or whatever the word is for those , because they all feed different species of bacteria . You want soluble and insoluble fibers from different plant families and guess what ? You monitor how you feel and you adjust it gradually . You don't do it all at once , you do one at a time . You could do carnivore for , say , a month or two as an elimination diet . It's a great elimination diet .

Philip Pape 22:15

And then add in something you think is very easy on your stomach , right , a fruit , for example , that has fiber , maybe it's oats , something and give it a week , give it two weeks , give it a month , give it as long as you need to evaluate . Hey , you know what ? Actually , I can eat this food just fine , no issues whatsoever . Now , if you spend five years and you , one at a time , introduce every source of fiber and every single one causes you problems . I'll eat my shorts that all fiber is an issue for you , but we can never make the claim that all fiber is an issue for most people . And then , as far as wanting to include fiber , leaning into the benefits you get from it can be very helpful as a driver to do this . The satiety effects make fat loss easier , the metabolic benefits support muscle building , recovery all of it .

Philip Pape 23:01

I'm going to give you one more thing to think about with fiber that I learned from some of the guests that I've had on and some of the latest research happening , and that is the compounds that are produced when your gut bacteria ferment fiber . Right , because , remember , it's great to eat fermented foods , but you also ferment fiber yourself in your body . The body's amazing , it really is . It can enhance get this okay the compounds produced when that happens can enhance muscle protein synthesis , mps . That's the rate at which we build muscle , because when the good bacteria , the beneficial bacteria , break down fiber , they produce something called butyrate , and the butyrate goes in your bloodstream and has been shown to improve insulin sensitivity , specifically in muscle tissue . And that means fiber isn't just supporting digestive health . It's literally helping your muscles use protein more effectively . What other great reason is there than that ? For those of us who are lifting and trying to build muscle , it's not the only reason , but it's a cool one . There's also some emerging research showing that certain fiber types can increase the absorption of amino acids , right Again broken down from protein , and that improves the muscle building response to your training .

Philip Pape 24:09

So the carnivore community's argument that you can optimize muscle growth with meat alone , I think ignores some of these pathways right that are tied to the gut , which a lot of you there might be even surprised in this episode that that is the case . I used to kind of ignore gut health , say , okay , that's a side thing over there . More people I talk to , the more I look at the literature and the more I work with clients , I realized that the pathways involved in gut health and having the right gut bacteria in your body , coming from diverse fiber consumption , produce compounds that are beneficial in many , many , many ways . And you're making this anthropological or ancestral argument . Maybe we should turn that around and say you know what ? We probably thrive as humans because we can handle a variety of foods and maybe we should be eating a variety of foods for that very reason . Not necessarily these specific foods , but just diversity in general . And that's why I like looking at the complete picture at the system , rather than getting caught up in dietary dogma . Because that is what it is these diets . They are dogma . They are rigid , restrictive forms of thinking that allow for no disproof of their hypothesis whatsoever , even though the counter arguments and evidence is all around them .

Philip Pape 25:26

So fiber is not just staying regular , it's not just preventing disease , even though those are great things Trust me , I know when I don't have enough fiber . I'm not gonna go into details but it's also a performance enhancer . It's like nature's natural performance enhancing drug right . It's a GLP-1 producer . It's great for your physique goals and I think there's a lot of mechanisms we're only beginning to understand because gut health is still in its nadir , to use a fun word . Or is nadir the right ? I think that's the beginning . Now you got me thinking . Does nadir mean the peak ? I meant to say fiber is in its nascent period of research ? Anyway , I'm being a total grammar snob right now , forgive me .

Philip Pape 26:05

The carnivore versus fiber debate . I don't even know why there's a debate , but I think we need more evidence-based thinking and not ideological extremes , to the point where I would say that an ideological extreme is , by definition , not evidence-based . It just has to be , because nothing is that black and white . Everything's individualized at the end anyway , right ? So you can't make those types of claims .

Philip Pape 26:29

Eliminating fiber might provide short-term relief , especially if you have digestive issues .

Evidence-Based Thinking over Extremes

Philip Pape 26:34

But if I'm going to take an analogy , we've had some water issues in our house issues . But if I'm going to take an analogy , we've had some water issues in our house , right , if I have a problem in the toilet or speaking of pun intended fiber episode , or problem with the sink or whatever , if I shut the water off to the house , it's going to eliminate that issue , isn't it ? But it's not fixing the root cause . I mean , that's just a simple analogy that comes to mind . So I don't think I have to reiterate the details .

Philip Pape 26:57

But immune system , hormones , muscle building , disease risk , longevity it's all improved by having higher fiber in your diet and you don't have to choose a side . Just look at the complete picture and give yourself flexibility and figure out what works for you . That's it . Just don't be extreme , don't restrict unnecessarily . I'm trying to give you some power back here . That's where I had to go . That's a journey I had to go through .

Philip Pape 27:18

I used to do paleo , I used to do keto and all that , and it was always like cut , cut , cut . What can't , can't , can't I eat ? You don't have to do that right . Your gut bacteria have been waiting millions of years for you to feed them properly . They're way older than us . Don't starve them . Don't starve those little buggers . They need to eat . All right , all right , if you want a nutrition approach for you , just the simple steps that goes along with this to create a flexible approach that still meets your goals .

Philip Pape 27:46

Download my free guide Nutrition 101 Guide Link in the show notes . Totally sustainable , science-based approach . It's personalizable . It doesn't tell you here's a meal plan , here's what you have to eat . No , it says let's figure this out together for you . Let's use the right tools to figure it out . Go to witsandweightscom slash free to get your free copy of the Nutrition 101 Guide . Until next time , keep using your wits , lifting those weights , and remember , when it comes to nutrition , the best approach is usually the one supported by the most evidence , not the loudest voices or dogmatic camps . I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast .