Food Labels, Marketing, and Greenwashing

Philip Pape 0:01

If you've been spending extra money on organic produce , grass-fed meat and natural products , thinking they're better for your health and physique goals , but you're wondering if you're just getting ripped off by fancy marketing . This episode is for you . Today , my guest a rancher from Nebraska who actually produces the beef you buy is going to reveal what those labels really mean . You'll learn how to shop smarter for whole , nutritious foods while avoiding deceptive marketing , saving you money and stress while still hitting your macro and micro goals . Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency .

Philip Pape 0:46

I'm your host , philip Pape , and today we're talking about food labels and what they actually mean when you're shopping for your health and performance goals . But we're coming at it from a different angle , because my guest today is Natalie Kovarek . She's co-host of the wildly popular Discover Ag podcast . Go , give that a follow . Natalie is a fourth generation cattle rancher in Nebraska and she's built a massive community by telling the truth about food production . So I hope you're going to learn something new today , especially from kind of an industry insider , and learn what food labels mean for your grocery budget , how to distinguish the marketing from the real differences in food quality and how to get the best nutrition without overspending or even overthinking . So , whether you're trying to hit protein goals , whether you're trying to fuel your training or you just want to eat well and not get taken for a ride and not get suckered by the fear mongers on social media , let's be honest listen up , because I think you'll become a smarter shopper after today's conversation . Natalie , welcome to the show .

Natalie Kovarik 1:44

Thank you , I am so excited to be here .

Philip Pape 1:46

Yeah , and I'm excited too , and really I want to hit right in on the marketing side of this , because you are behind the scenes in the industry producing food and there's a long chain of events before it gets to the shelf . And of course I joke with my daughters because I talk to them about how our food actually comes from animals , right , and they don't want to hear it , right , because we're so used to just going to a grocery store and buying a package . So when you think of all the marketing , like the terms , what gets under your skin the most on a daily basis ?

Natalie Kovarik 2:18

Yeah , we are starting it off heavy , but I'm glad you started here because this is actually something that we continually talk over on the podcast , because I do think it is forefront of a kind of a problem , an issue , a concern , just kind of like a barrier for people shopping right now . Right Is understanding all those different labels , and I always say that , unfortunately , food labels started in a really , really good place , like they make sense , right , we are now removed from where our food is grown . You know , we used to have an uncle , a cousin , someone , a grandpa , someone that was on a farm and you were familiar with it , and now we're not . And so it made sense that we were like , okay , let's give tools to the people in the grocery store to help them make the best choice , but those tools , I feel like , aren't tools anymore , they're just like marketing , greenwashing to the extreme almost .

Natalie Kovarik 3:06

And you know , the one that probably gets under my skin the most is the GMO , non GMO one . And that's not because I'm against . You know , consumers , people shopping , being able to understand which one is , what food maybe is coming from a GMO and choosing not to buy that . I hate the non GMO label because there's only only 11 GMOs used right now , and so basically , they're putting that label on everything that isn't a GMO . So , for example , like tomatoes , there are no GMO tomatoes . You don't need to look for a non-GMO tomato . You need to spend your time in the grocery store , you don't need to stress over it , you don't need to spend dollars looking for that label , but we do because we think the absence of it means you know the presence of it , and so I just get really frustrated with the GMO label as one example .

Philip Pape 3:49

You mentioned . It's funny you said that because I was thinking about how candy all says fat free , you know .

Carol 3:53

Yeah .

Philip Pape 3:54

Like it's like a duh , but yeah .

Natalie Kovarik 3:56

Yeah , so free water . You know , I mean it's like we could go to the extreme on , like greenwashing marketers and it just gets , you know , gets under my skin .

Philip Pape 4:04

So explain the term greenwashing .

Natalie Kovarik 4:06

Yeah . So greenwashing , I mean I guess I don't know like the technical term for it , but the way we use it on the podcast or the way I guess I see like layman's use it a lot is basically they are putting you know words that make you feel good , words that you associate with like positivity , whether that's like environmental you know where you think you're purchasing a food that is like better for the planet and so you're willing to spend that premium dollar on it . Maybe it's greenwashing around , like where animal welfare habits or practices , so anyway it's like a positive feeling through marketing that actually like isn't tied back to any tangible like monitoring or maybe results or anything at the forefront of it . It's just you've been greenwashed to think that like your dollar is going to something better when it's really not .

Philip Pape 4:45

Okay , and that's a good distinction to make , because I can think of all the confusing terms that have evolved over the years . I grew up in the 80s , grew up drinking whole milk . Eventually I started drinking skim milk . Don't know what I was thinking . I'm back to whole milk .

Natalie Kovarik 4:58

No but the moms of the 80s went through a hard time with like butter and dairy and milk . They got off a little track .

Philip Pape 5:05

They went to margarine and everything else , snack wells . But you see , because even today it gets way more nuanced and complicated , like on milk where you'll see it's non-organic milk but we don't use hormones with cows , right ? And you're like what do I make sense of all this ? And when I think of terms like organic or natural , you know grass-fed versus conventional . And I think of terms like organic or natural , you know grass-fed versus conventional and I know that's a whole thing . People think it's like this binary and it really is . It's the whole life cycle , the cows , you know production cycle . What terms do make sense ? And you use the term like tested or validated or something like that , and what are just total puffery ?

Natalie Kovarik 5:39

Yeah

Understanding Organic, Grass-fed, and Regulated Labels

Natalie Kovarik 5:40

, organic is one I'll start there that is backed , it is monitored . Organic is one I'll start there that is backed , it is monitored , it is federally regulated . All of that so there is an organization to vet process . I mean there's still like organic fraud . You know that's like kind of coming to surface for a lot of conversations , but for the most part , like organic is a regulated body . So that is one . Let's see . All natural is not one . A lot of people will look for that label but it really isn't regulated anywhere . So if you're getting like all natural beef or all natural I don't know chicken , I feel like I haven't ever seen it on like fruit , so it's probably going to be in your proteins . That's a greenwashing one . Grass finished is one you could look for . Grass fed can be kind of abused a little bit in greenwash , just because I guess it's a little bit of a tangent . But getting into as you talked about , like conventional beef . First , you know , grass fed and grass finished , there is a little bit of .

Natalie Kovarik 6:31

I think people aren't aware that even grain finished animals are out at pasture for about two thirds of their life and so some people will consider it because they're getting grass that entire time before they're finished those last couple . It's like , usually about four to six months , that they'll get the grain finishing . Obviously , they're getting grass fed for the first two thirds of their life . So you can have that grass fed label and have it be abused a little bit because the animal technically was grass fed and even when they're getting grain at the end , like in a finishing feedlot system , they're still getting grass . They're getting like forages mixed in with the grain . So technically they are grass fed . So that's one that's a little bit abused . It that's one that's a little bit abused . It's like if you really want a full you know , complete beginning to end animal that was only fed grass as their sole diet , you need to look for grass to finish . That would one that would be regulated .

Natalie Kovarik 7:12

I'm trying to think of a few more here . Going to the dairy you brought up , like the hormones , rbst is a big one that people kind of have some issues concerns over , and that is actually another frustrating one , because RBST is not currently used in the dairy industry anymore but you still see that label everywhere and you see consumers looking for it because again we feel like if it's not there , we must be getting a cow treated with it . But it is not . The dairy industry does not use RBST anymore , so that's another label that I wouldn't look for . I wouldn't pay extra for be worried about if it's not on your milk .

Philip Pape 7:44

Cool so then , at the end of the day , how does somebody figure this out ? Yeah , that's like the million dollar question , right , or should they ? Or should they not overthink it ? I mean , you know the person that's listening is like , well what ?

Natalie Kovarik 7:55

I'm so confused more than I started . No , I agree , here's my little like it is , which I'm sure a lot of your listeners do , right , I mean , you , you're in a very active lifestyle . You guys are tuning in , are some of my favorite people to talk to , because you do care about your food . You want to know where it comes from , like you know you're my people , so I imagine a lot of you do , if that's you and you also carry a little bit more of the financial , economic component to your pocketbook . Shop direct , right ? So we are in an amazing time in society where you could type in you live in Missouri , st Louis type in St Louis beef near me , direct to consumer rancher , anything , some of those keywords , and I guarantee you a plethora of websites will pop up where you can shop directly from a rancher . Anything , some of those keywords , and I guarantee you a plethora of websites will pop up where you can shop directly from a rancher to get your proteins . And even if you don't find one locally , there are so many online that ship nationwide now . So you know we have options in front of us to be able to go directly to the rancher , the farmer . When it comes to produce farmer's market things like that , where you can ask the rancher directly , they're not going to be putting those greenwashing labels on a lot of their products . It's going to be pretty straightforward here's how I raise the beef , here's how I raise the fruits and vegetables , and you can get that information straight from them . Otherwise , if you're like , okay , that's not an option for me financially or that sounds like too much work . I'm a nine to five worker and I hit the grocery store on the way home Like some of these extra steps are not going to be conducive to my lifestyle .

Natalie Kovarik 9:29

I do give the advice that for the most part , what you're getting in the grocery store , one product to the next , is not going to be very different and when it comes to like the health component of your lifestyle , you know we could get into talking like organic strawberries versus non-organic strawberries . Right From a nutritional standpoint , they're still going to do the same good to your body . Beef , even same they are . I was actually kind of excited .

Natalie Kovarik 9:51

I want to get this scientist on the podcast because there has been some debate over if grass-finished beef is more nutritionally . You know better for you than the grain-finished beef Right now studies are showing that it's negligible . It's very minute the difference . So again , even when you're in the protein section looking one package versus the other , just pick the one that either you like , that it looks like , or the one that fits your dollar , whatever it is , because for the most part , when you're in the grocery store there's not going to be those premium products that are really worth paying the extra for . Just get what fits your bill , what sounds good , what you want to feed your family extra for Just get what fits your bill , what sounds good , what you want to feed your family .

Philip Pape 10:31

And that's why I'm glad you're on right , because 80 , 90% of the industry is saying something very different from that , with very little to no evidence . Or I'll say a lot of cherry picking , of rat studies or something like that . I just did an episode about inflammation , talking about how the majority of our inflammation doesn't even come from food . It comes from our dietary pattern perhaps , but it's more from our lifestyle . And you know , seed oils get vilified right , certain types of animal products and sources of those products . Of course you have the red meat , cancer research , which is completely , you know , conflated and misrepresented . So I'm totally on board with you . I love the de-stressing you just gave the audience .

Philip Pape 11:03

When you're like look , go with your budget , be flexible , think about your goals , what do you like ? I have clients who overthink stuff all the time . I'm like what do you like ? What's just tasty to you , what do you enjoy ? Now let's reverse engineer from that and see if it all makes sense . So thank you for that . Let's

Shop Direct or Keep It Simple

Philip Pape 11:21

go to the financial argument . You said , okay , you're on the go , you don't have a lot of money If you had to go the other extreme and feed your family , I don't know what would be really low amount 50 bucks a week or something , or a hundred bucks a week . What would you buy with that kind of budget ?

Natalie Kovarik 11:33

Yeah , I would stick to Whole Foods I can . I feel like you're going to get your best bang for your buck . I mean , you know it's interesting . I had this conversation on the podcast recently about the cereal aisle , right , I think it was when we were talking about food dyes or something , and we were talking about how I'm like I cereals like $10 a box , like you know , I mean you can get like 799 cereal and I'm like my sons go if I buy cereal and it's our household , my teenage son who is now off at college , but I'm like he would go through a box of cereal and like three bowls , you know .

Natalie Kovarik 12:03

So it's interesting the conversation of like fast food , more convenient food , and how it feels to us more affordable than when we go , you know , shop the outer perimeters and whole foods . But you know , I really believe , especially for everyone tuning in who is , like you know , so focused and cares about , you know , the health of their body , whole foods is what you're going to want to shop . And again , whether that is , you know , not the non-organic berries , so that you're not paying that extra amount , and the grocery store beef that is , you know , the most conventional grain finish . There is that in my opinion , that and I would . I would guess you would have the same opinion , but that's going to be more healthy for your body than it is If you got the organic processed granola bars or you got you know whatever again greenwashed item it is we are made to feel like is better for our body . I truly believe in a whole foods diet and if you can figure out how to make that fit your budget , I think you're doing pretty darn good .

Philip Pape 12:56

Yeah , I agree with that , and that is an argument made that somehow whole foods cost too much money . But it's an excuse , right ? And when you do the actual thought experiment and go to the grocery store and shop plus , you know I see people wasting food all the time , right , isn't that ? A big issue is food waste not even leftovers , like those things , yeah .

Natalie Kovarik 13:13

Crazy . We've talked about food waste a handful of times on the podcast and the statistics around it are really really alarming . Of one , you know the environmental damage we do with landfills and food waste and how much we produce . You know farmers are producing and how much of the percentage that gets waste . Yeah , it's really wild . We actually talk about that quite a bit when we guest on other podcasts that want to talk about , like cattle and the climate and , like you know , carbon footprint and methane and all those questions and it's like if we actually focused as a nation on food waste , we would do way more for the environment than you would ever do as an individual . You know , maybe meatless Mondays or whatever wild thing it is that you feel like is , you know , saving the planet . It's like if food waste is not just nationwide but globally , it's a really huge issue .

Philip Pape 13:55

Yeah , I've seen that You're right . It's like in a pie chart . It's a huge chunk of the equation right and even just locally as an individual right Wasting food , like not eating leftovers . I've seen people leave half their food in a restaurant . It kind of rankles me because we're just very frugal about that stuff .

Natalie Kovarik 14:11

Yeah , we talked about that last week on the podcast because there was a reel that popped off that was talking about European food and how it's better for you than American food , and so we kind of got into like the nuance of like no-transcript , the middle of nowhere in Nebraska . But when I do , I'm like I usually don't finish my meal . It is impossible in the serving size that we give here in the United States I can't finish my plate .

Philip Pape 15:03

Yeah , we see that as a mark of excellent service , like look how great these , these portions are Right .

Natalie Kovarik 15:09

Yeah .

Philip Pape 15:09

Yeah , so when we think about our listeners who are are concerned about their performance and their health and their macros and trying to like protein is foundational and of course , we love our animal based products for that , I know some some listeners are vegan vegetarian . I'm sorry it gets harder . I have a good friend , that's a vegetarian .

Natalie Kovarik 15:31

So I I'm not . Just just because I'm a Calabrian doesn't mean I stand for food choice . So totally .

Philip Pape 15:36

I agree , a hundred percent , yeah , and I just I'm just saying sorry , cause it does get harder . It gets harder for that , and so you have people trying to hit 150 grams of protein , thinking that it's so expensive to buy their meat , and that's where the quality differences in meat are important . So maybe we can dig that , dig into that one more level deep , both with meat and dairy , which are two of the best sources of protein , before you start getting into plant-based proteins or whey protein or something . So maybe talk about the . Are there any nutritional differences ? You alluded to the fact that grass versus grain fed , maybe not Anything else , both meat and dairy .

Natalie Kovarik 16:10

Yeah , so starting in meat , that is what study shows . Right now there is a scientist out of he's , out of Utah , I believe . His name is like Stefan Van Fleet . I think I actually really want to get him on the podcast so for everyone tuning in . Maybe that will come in the next month or so because he .

Natalie Kovarik 16:25

So up until this point we had a bunch of studies that showed that there was no differences at least in the larger macro components of grain finished versus grass finished beef . There is a difference in the omega ratio and that's pretty much what the sole nutritional difference was standing on , and I think it's the threes , actually not the sixes . Sometimes I get those mixed up , but one of them is higher and so that was pretty much the sole difference . But there were researchers being led by this Stefan that were kind of trying to take it a layer deeper and say , okay , well , is there a difference , you know , in the vitamin component , in the you know , I don't know all sorts of the different micronutrients that would come into beef and really look at like a layer deeper of like what you know ? Aren't we seeing from the big picture between the two and actually just listen to him on a podcast coming out and saying that after he's done all that research looking for and I think he was actually kind of maybe hoping it would show and I think he was actually kind of maybe hoping it would show and I think he was not biased by any means . But I definitely think leading into it there was a lot of hype from the community that would show that difference to support that like grass fed is going to be nutritionally better for you . But he said that a lot of the grain finished products were just as good as grass finished and what actually made the difference was the quality of forage for the animal when it came to those grain finished feeding . So if they were getting you had a rancher who was maybe finishing with grain , but it was really high quality grain that he was finishing with you , would he saw that rank as high as the grass finish , like there weren't the differences in the micro . So from a health standpoint , again , there is not going to be really different or there isn't studies right now to show really a difference in buying one or the other . They do taste different . So if by chance , you like grass finish , that would be an option to choose it . Most people actually prefer the grain finish because of the marbling . So usually not people aren't like choosing grass finish for the for the taste . The difference between

Grass-Finished vs. Grain-Finished Beef

Natalie Kovarik 18:10

I can kind of go a layer deeper for everyone , because there is going to be a difference from like the animal being raised portion of it and that could be an argument for wanting to choose grass finish , if you like that cycle for the animal better than the conventional grain finish .

Natalie Kovarik 18:23

Whether it's grain finish or grass finish , like I said a little bit earlier , the first portion of their lives are exactly the same . They look exactly the same . There is no difference . They are going to be cow and a calf that is raised out on grass pasture , like my ranch . It's called a cow-calf operation . That is the legal jargon term you use in the ranching industry . You're a cow-calf ranch and that's when you see those pairs , those babies and those mamas together out on grass . The babies are eating grass and milk . That's their diet and the mamas are getting grass foraging whatever the rancher has out in the fields at that time . So that is the same grass finished , grain finish for about two thirds of their life . If you're a grass finished animal , that obviously stays the same . You're going to be it can .

Natalie Kovarik 19:04

The one difference or assumption people make is that the animal is always going to be out on pasture , like outdoors . You could still be an indoor animal and finished or sorry , being fed forage diet , a grass diet , and still be considered grass grass-fed , because the grass-fed label is a diet only label . It has nothing to do with the surroundings or anything . So you could be indoor , outdoor , whatever , as long as you're getting grass for your diet , you're considered a grass-fed animal . So for that grass-fed , grass-finished animal they could be indoor , outdoor , but basically their entire life they're getting that solely grass forage diet , the conventional grain finish animal right at the end of their life . It's for usually about four to six months . That's when they enter the feedlot system and that is when they're going to be pushed . Their weight's going to be pushed a little bit more because the grain is introduced into the diet .

Natalie Kovarik 19:53

Like I said , that is along with grasses still , so it's not like they're getting just grain .

Natalie Kovarik 19:57

Like I said , that is along with grasses still so it's not like they're getting just grain . There's studies out of I think it was Oklahoma state that say that at the end of a grain finished animal's life , the grain only accounts for about 7% total of their diet . So I think that kind of puts into perspective like , even though the animal got grain at the end of the life , it is still a very small amount because again they're out on pasture getting that forage and they continue to get that along with the grain . So that's the big difference . The feedlot would buy the animal from a rancher like me , finish them out and then the processor would buy that animal from the feedlot and then it gets harvested . So that last four to six months is definitely a different setting for an animal in the feedlot , which some people you know from an animal welfare standpoint maybe they have an issue with , and that would be a reason to buy that grass finish , grass fed , grass finish label .

Philip Pape 20:43

Okay , great . So there's three big takeaways for me , at least , one being what you just ended on the value-based decision . And I actually had someone on the show quite a while ago . She's vegan and you know vehemently so , to the point where she used to be what she called a militant vegan , and then she had sort of reformed herself in her approach with people about it , and we had a great conversation about that , how your morals and your values have to come into the choices you make . So nobody's going to judge you for that and you want to be informed . The other two that I came up with were the taste , of course , like you said . I mean , I agree , grass-fed , it's just leaner , a little bit drier . Right , it doesn't have the marbling , it is what it is . So you're making trade-offs and then the grain quality of grain-fed cattle being different , let me guess the only way you know that is we shop direct .

Natalie Kovarik 21:30

Yeah , I actually haven't ever been asked that before , but yeah it would be because and even then you'd'd be , obviously you're hoping you , you know , are shopping from a rancher that's you know , being truthful and honest with you , but you're basically taking their word for it . But yeah , it's gonna be . I mean because it doesn't necessarily from again the conversation that I listened to of the scientist and again would love to have him on so that I can ask him some of these questions but it's not even the different types , because lot of , especially regionally , a lot of you know , different parts of the United States are going to use the same kinds of grains to finish out the different animals . So it's not going to necessarily be the different types , but it would be like the soil that they're grown in and that quality you know , whether they were under a drought or stress or some of those things that again , like you , it would be really hard to even know the difference from if you weren't , like in the lab , scientifically testing it .

Philip Pape 22:17

really hard to even know the difference from if you weren't , like in the lab , scientifically testing it .

Natalie Kovarik 22:20

Right , which everybody's doing . I know , yeah , right , exactly . Another step that consumers can do for their food . Do a show , yeah , yes , file that onto the 0.1% overthinking department .

Philip Pape 22:29

And at the end of the day I mean for those listening , I know I know you know this as well as like , having a diverse diet is one of the highest correlating factors with health outcomes and performance . Like , if you just have diversity in your diet , plants and animals , you almost don't have to think about this stuff If you eat what you like and fit your macros and get the nutrients you need . Would you agree with that ?

Natalie Kovarik 22:48

Yeah , absolutely . It's funny because people are always asking me like what I supplement with all these different things . And I do take , like , a beef liver pill for my daily multivitamin , beef liver pill for my daily multivitamin , but I don't stress too much about supplementation because I'm like I feel like I get a fairly decent diet and I think you should be trying to get it through your foods , if you can over supplementation anyway .

Philip Pape 23:04

So I want to ask you about that beef liver pill , because for a while I took beef liver pills that had added B12 and my B12 was like through the roof . I realized I didn't really need it . If you eat a lot of meat , that happened to my sister .

Natalie Kovarik 23:16

Yeah , they went in and she's like this is they were cause she had her white cells elevated too and they were like these are showing through supplementation . She's like I'm not supplementing with a B vitamin and she didn't even think , like she didn't even take the time to think that like the B vitamin coming from the beef liver , and they're like , okay , well , you either have cancer or you're supplementing . So like which one is it , you know ? And finally she figured out it was the beef liver that she was taking too , that like shot her B vitamins up .

Philip Pape 23:40

And was it just just the beef liver by itself ? Cause they have some where they add B12 to the beef liver .

Natalie Kovarik 23:45

Oh , I , you know , I don't know , I did not ask for that .

Philip Pape 23:47

I don't know . And so then the other question here is there are organ beef , organ pills . Do you have thoughts on one or the other ? If people are looking to just add those extra bit of nutrients , they might be missing if they don't eat organ meat .

Natalie Kovarik 23:59

I don't . I mean I think that yeah , no , I don't . I guess I don't have enough . I wouldn't have enough scientific background to state right now , to promote or state one over the other .

Philip Pape 24:09

So no , and sadly , I think most of the science that's out there , as sparse as it is , probably come from more from the carnivore community when it comes to the organ meat , and so you have to really be skeptical about that . So then , what about ? So then we have dairy and eggs , and of course the eggs are a little different thing , but dairy is there a downstream effect as well in the dairy ?

Natalie Kovarik 24:28

Yep so . So my podcast co-host , who sadly couldn't be here this day , is actually a dairy farmer from New Mexico , so I am not a dairy expert . The first time I actually saw a dairy cow was at Her Dairy , so a funny little thing . I think everyone assumes that when you're in the ag industry you know you are an expert on everything . It's like I went 34 years of my life growing up on a ranch , working on a ranch , living on a ranch , being a rancher , and never saw a dairy cow . But I have learned an extensive amount from her because she is incredibly knowledgeable in the dairy industry . She , her because she is incredibly knowledgeable in the dairy industry . She's a dairy farmer and she's also an environmental scientist in the dairy community , so she's just really a wealth of knowledge when it comes to , you know , dairy from the production side , but also dairy from , like , the environmental and sustainability side .

Natalie Kovarik 25:08

And the interesting part of her story is she actually grew up drinking raw milk for like the 20 , I don't know 24 , 25 years of her life and then she got pregnant with her first daughter and , through different conversations with her medical provider and different research she did , she ended up stepping away from raw milk and just drinking conventional milk on the grocery shelf . And that is her advice to . When people ask her about milk , if they should do raw milk or if they should look for organic or what they should be looking for when it comes to labels on the milk , she always says that as a dairy farmer herself , she goes for the cheapest conventional milk on the grocery store

The Truth About Dairy and Eggs

Natalie Kovarik 25:45

. She says that dairy quality has never been higher than it currently is . Right now . The checks and balances the dairy industry have are pretty insane . Same goes for the beef industry . There's a lot of checks and balances to make sure that the product you guys are getting on the grocery store shelf are really safe . And she will tout that for dairy and say that the milk on the grocery store she says she will put and her milk does go to conventional supply chain and she said she would put her milk up against any other dairy in the US .

Natalie Kovarik 26:11

I'm feeling very confident in the quality of it . They have some very rigorous testing on it , standards they have to meet and so the milk you're getting on the grocery store is not only safe for you , but again , there isn't much of a difference unless you want to go for that organic label . I'm not super clear on what the difference would be . I think it is grass fed only for organic and there might be some regulation around pasture amount of time , whether the cause . Dairy cows are going to be an indoor more of a CAFO animal for the most part , and so I think that on the organic side of dairy there's some of those . But again , the organic label is measured so that at least would be one that you know you're getting something that is being regulated instead of greenwashed , like we talked about at the beginning .

Philip Pape 26:54

The organic thing is interesting , right , because I feel like there's a lot of it's out of fear or just to be safe kind of mentality . I know we fed our kids organic milk when they were little and then eventually just went to conventional , but thinking just in case , you know , we don't know what's in there . Is there hormones that could affect their development ? You just don't know . And I agree , milk is fantastic , as well as Fairlife , and there's competitors to Fairlife now doing the filtered milk , which is a wonderful addition for our space where we're trying to get even more protein . And I've heard you talk about it on the show . Do you drink it yourself ?

Natalie Kovarik 27:28

Yeah , fairlife is actually what I buy for my family . Yeah , I've never had raw milk , I've never ventured into that part , but yeah , that's what I buy for my family is Fair Life you mentioned this just triggered my mind . It's a little bit of a tangent , but I think it'd probably be something that your consumers or not consumers your listeners would want to hear about hormones , chicken industry . We actually interviewed the founder of Pasture Bird and had a pretty in-depth conversation with him about regulation , kind of the same thing greenwashing , labeling in the poultry industry . So if you guys are curious about that , you could hop over and listen to that interview we did with him .

Natalie Kovarik 28:02

But it's pretty wild when it comes to eggs and chicken . When it comes to labels and what to look for , a lot of them are kind of misleading and a little trickery is going on there . He stated I'm pretty sure it was cage free is not one you'd want to look for . It's pasture raised is going to be the best label you could get . Cage free obviously means they're not in a cage but they don't need outdoor access . And then there's another one that I can't think off the top of my head . I know he talked about it in the interview .

Carol 28:32

Yeah , vegetarian fed is obviously not one , or maybe it's pasture Gosh .

Natalie Kovarik 28:45

I should listen to our own episode and have tuned up , because there's free range and pasture raised and one of those is greenwashing , because it means that the owners have to provide outdoor access for the chickens , but they're not required to actually go out , they don't have to leave , they just have to have like a three foot hole in the wall or something and that classifies as that meeting that standard . And the chicken may have never even left outside , but because they have that access , it qualifies . So there is one label that you want to look for . Otherwise , again , all the other ones are going to be the same eggs , kind of the same thing . It's trickery , but there are no hormones . That's where I started this conversation . It's outlawed and it's illegal to do hormones in chicken . So when you're paying for that , like no , no hormones , label it . It's across the board .

Philip Pape 29:30

Yeah , what's with the anti-chicken crowd ? I've seen that like , like chickens horrible , it's toxic , it's poison , it's like come on , I'm sorry , it's just raised .

Natalie Kovarik 29:41

I think visually it's just hard to see how chickens are raised there .

Natalie Kovarik 29:43

And so the difference between , like , the poultry industry and also the pork industry is they're vertically integrated .

Natalie Kovarik 29:49

So like , for example , what that means is Tyson very common chicken name in the chicken industry they actually own the bird from beginning to end .

Natalie Kovarik 29:59

So it's vertically integrated and the farmer is just contracted by Tyson and you're talking , you know , I think you harvest chickens at like six weeks , like it's a very short lifestyle . So you're getting a very small animal which is obviously different than beef and you can put a lot of them , you know , in one space . And so I think it's hard for people to kind of to know that vertically integrated model and kind of see the chickens close together verse . You know , I'm lucky enough to be a rancher and what I get to share is , you know , a few cows on a beautiful open green pasture right and so , visually , while they're both , you know , when it comes to animal welfare , the chicken industry is doing their due diligence to make sure that there's space and you know quality of the barns and all of those things . I think just from like , just as general humans from us , an imagery standpoint , like it's easier to digest a cow out of pasture than it is like the chicken in the chicken barn .

Philip Pape 30:46

I could see that we have chickens . We have what ? Do ? We have 14 chickens in the backyard here and don't juxtapose food chicken conversation with those . Are our pets Cause cause to our girls ? They're actually pets . Yeah , you know , I like the eggs that we get from them too , because we give them all our leftovers and that's another thing . You notice a difference going to the grocery stores Like , yeah , yeah , they're . They're effectively pasture raised carnivore . You know omnivore diet . We give them mealworms and everything . They're these deep orange , thick yolks versus very pale colored yolks you usually see in the grocery store . And I think , if I'm to guess logically from everything you said , I would think the pasture raised maybe is the label , cause it's the one that's always way more expensive . Yeah , but you never know .

Natalie Kovarik 31:30

Yeah , the interesting . He actually talked about this too in the interview . The sad thing now is even going to the yolk color . There are companies that will put dye into the oh my God of course they will .

Natalie Kovarik 31:41

It's called like xanthophyll , I think , to give that rich egg yolk color . So now you can't even really use that as like a quality standard assessment for chicken . So again it goes to like if you truly care that much , try and find someone that you can source your birds from or your eggs from . Otherwise , just go in and pick whatever egg carton you want , because you're pretty much getting the same product in the grocery store .

Philip Pape 32:03

And eggs can be easier to find . I mean , we live in a farm town here in Connecticut , believe it or not . Yeah , we do have farm farm areas here . I'm not on a farm but and you could drive around and see egg stands everywhere , at least this time of year . Of course , the winter it all dries up because the production gets down . So , okay , let's segue back to carbs produce . We talked a little bit about the organic . There are these lists that have been out there , like the dirty dozen , and folks are trying to get there . Yeah , go ahead .

Natalie Kovarik 32:31

Well , I was going to say I'm glad you brought that up , because that is a difference too with organic . That , I think , is like a forefront of a lot of consumers and probably listeners , is like the glyphosate conversation , you know . So I said earlier like oh , it's yeah . Yep , so I was like earlier .

Natalie Kovarik 32:44

If you you know the organic strawberry versus the conventional strawberry , you know nutritionally no difference . Like , just eat the strawberry , you're going to be getting the same nutritional value . There are differences when it comes to organic , because organic is obviously not allowed to be used the glyphosate , which is a very common herbicide in the agriculture industry . I think the interesting thing about that is a lot of people assume that no pesticides herbicides , you know are used in the organic sector , but they are . They're just organic

Glyphosate, Pesticides, and Food Safety

Natalie Kovarik 33:15

approved ones . And so I think there's a lot of nuanced conversation around from different people of like , okay , yes , organic is not using glyphosate , but they're still using , you know , I think copper sulfate is one , for example and so they're still using different herbicides , pesticides , just not the conventionally approved one . So I think that is an important part of the conversation .

Natalie Kovarik 33:35

We're actually having two different conversations on our podcast interviews that are coming out in July . One is with a scientist out of Florida who is pro glyphosate . He has studied it , he has researched it , he it's actually a GMO and glyphosate conversation and he is very pro for it from his academic standing . And then we're actually doing the opposite of the conversation . We're bringing on another researcher who is very anti glyphosate and we're having the two . We're not putting them together because he actually said he would come on with her but she didn't want to come on with him and we didn't kind of want to make , you know , like a negative app , you know , just tension or you know , do that to anyone who is uncomfortable .

Natalie Kovarik 34:14

So they are going to be separate episodes , but we wanted to give the space for that pro conversation of glyphosate and whether you need to be afraid from it , afraid of it when , either environmentally or nutritionally I think that's what probably most people selfishly care about is like you know what's the glyphosate doing inside of my body , maybe a little bit more than like what's glyphosate do to the environment . So we wanted to have the space to have hold both of those conversations and keep them as scientific and fact-based as we could . So if that is something you care about more is like the glyphosate . Should I avoid that ? Do I need to avoid that ? Do I need to avoid that ? What's that mean for me ? Those would also be two really good interviews we're having on our podcast to come up , because they are the experts who have studied them and they obviously have very different opinions about it , so they should be two really really good episodes .

Philip Pape 34:55

We haven't released them yet , but I love how you're throwing down the episodes , so just and this is good because so I just started following your show . It's it's the kind of podcast that you wouldn't necessarily know that you want to listen to until you realize what it's about it , depending on your audience , Right , and so so my audience . I think you guys would like it from a food production supply and the science behind all that perspective , especially the nuances you just talked about , because and again , if I'm talking too much about my own stories , let me know , but this is so relatable to this is oats , right ? Again , our girls are 11 and 13 . When they were little , we wanted them to feed them oatmeal and around that time came out that the big study where they looked at the glyphosate content in a ton of brands of oats and they found that like only one or two organic brands from like Whole Foods had trace amounts , you know , undetectable amounts , and the rest had all the way up to levels exceeding the recommendation , the government recommendation . And so it raises the question okay , do I care ?

Philip Pape 35:55

Like you said , even if you do consume it , we know lots of things . Lots of foreign products and chemicals enter our body and we can detoxify them with our liver and the dosage makes the poison . And so what right ? It's like all the processed food we can consume . On the other hand , you know , is it truly bad for you ? And you said there are other things , like the environment , beyond that scope . What would you do personally , Like , do you care about that ?

Natalie Kovarik 36:18

You know , tara and I , my co-host Tara and I we have this conversation a lot that I think one of the great things about being in the agriculture industry is you have , I think of the great things about being in the agriculture industry is you have , I think , a trust in the agriculture industry that you don't if you're removed from it just because you know we don't raise wheat , we don't raise oats , we don't . You know , we don't actually even farm . We were like pretty much a livestock only operation . Sometimes you'll have a lot of ranchers who own livestock but also farm , but we don't . So I don't have any experience personally , even buying glyphosate , ordering glyphosate , spraying it . I have never handled any of those chemicals but I know people who do . I have a lot of friends that are farmers . I'm in Nebraska , I am in the corn state , so there's a lot of farmers I know , whether they're raising soybeans or corn or wheat or oats or whatever it is that have handled , they do use those herbicides and pesticides corn or wheat or oats or whatever it is that have handled . Right , they do use those herbicides and pesticides , fungicides , like all the different sides in the agriculture industry , and I know that they wouldn't do that or eat that food or that . You know they wouldn't do that to their crops and then turn around and eat that food too , right . And so I think we inherently have a little bit more trust for the system than people who are completely removed , that have never met a farmer or talked to them . So no , I , at this point , from my research that I've done and you know the choices I make for our family I don't choose to try and avoid glyphosate . I don't pay attention to the dirty dozen because for me the dirty dozen is a little bit of greenwashing and misleading too , Like yes , they rank , I think is it 10 or 12 ? Whatever the top , let's say 10 , top 10 , you know vegetables , fruit to avoid because they have the most glyphosate on them , but all they're doing is like telling you foods that have glyphosate on them . They're not comparing it to again , as you mentioned , like the points , the amounts that are federally acceptable , regulated , and all of them fall below it . So it doesn't really tell you anything Like it tells you that glyphosate is present , but if they were to like carry on , you know , do a comma and then finish out the sentence , it would be like but at no doses that are actually , you know , deemed to be currently harmful to , you know , a human right now . So I don't pay attention to it .

Natalie Kovarik 38:20

I don't buy anything organic , I buy conventional . I'm also so in the again , I alluded to this earlier , but I am in central Nebraska . I ranch outside of a town of 2000 people . We have two tiny little grocery stores that I shop at . I am an hour and a half from a Target . I am an hour and a half from a Walmart . I am an hour and a half from a Hy-Vee which is like our you know a nicer grocery store Sam's Club . I am three hours from a Whole Foods . I am three hours from a Costco .

Natalie Kovarik 38:44

So what is available to me is going to be a little bit different than a listener that is at , you know , in the heart of a big city that maybe has more options . Like if I had a robust farmer's market to go to , I would absolutely go and shop at the you know , the farmer's market if I , if I could , like . I believe food is medicine and I love supporting farmers and ranchers , and I think you get some really high quality produce at farmer's market that you can't get in the grocery store . And I'm going to explain that asterisk , because it is nothing to do with the product itself . It's actually to do with the transportation .

Carol 39:17

Before I started working with Philip , I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency , but from the very beginning , philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals . From the very beginning , philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals . He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym , and I lost 20 pounds . More importantly , I gained self-confidence . What sets Philip apart is the personal connection . He supported and encouraged me every step of the way . So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do , I highly recommend Philip Pape .

Natalie Kovarik 39:57

So when you pick a fruit , let's say blueberries , you're halting the process right there and then you have to cold storage that and transport it how many miles from California to the little grocery store in Nebraska and we have done a great job as a nation to , you know , allow us to eat out of season and allow me , a Nebraska resident , to eat fruits that are not grown regionally , locally in my area .

Natalie Kovarik 40:20

But when we halt that you know picking process , by the time in that transportation process it gets to my little grocery store it is going to be different than if I picked it and it was , you know , picked it at a you pick in California , or picked it and it went , you know to you know 100 miles to the next California grocery store . So there are differences in produce when it comes to that because of the transportation , not because of the farmer at the beginning . So if I could go to a farmer's market and get some of those amazing fresh yesterday pick stuff , I would . I just I don't have the means to be a super picky shopper in our little grocery store and and even if I did , like I said , I'm not worried about some of those things because I'm in the agriculture industry and I trust our farmers and ranchers are doing the best job they can every single day with the tools that we currently have .

Philip Pape 41:06

Yeah Long tangent , sorry I can every single day with the tools that we currently have . Yeah , long tangent , sorry , no , no , no , I'm just letting it . I'm trying to teach myself not to gut react when I do interviews . So I like the process and I mean what strikes me . There is again the big message here is no one should feel judged or overly restricted in their ability to get good quality food , quality being what you can afford . That is mostly whole foods , I mean , that's , that's kind of the message . And then all this other stuff is just the gravy on top , based on , like you said , freshness . Right , not so much the quality of the product , but the freshness of it , based on your goals and everything else . When you were talking about the glyph , why do I keep saying it wrong Glyphosate .

Natalie Kovarik 41:47

Yeah , no , nailed it .

Philip Pape 41:49

I was thinking about how seed oils , for example , gets vilified . And yet when you look at outcomes , if you just look at outcomes of longitudinal or meta-analysis studies over decades and decades which we have from like the Mediterranean diet , for example , it's clear that , for example , reducing saturated fats and replacing the CETLs actually improves some people's outcome . And again , I'm not supporting one or the other , I'm just saying the glyphosate , if I don't know what kind of studies have been done , but I suspect that again , if it's a small part of a bigger diet , it's probably not going to have any impact .

Natalie Kovarik 42:26

Yeah , yeah . So glyphosate is interesting . Again , we're going to dive into this with our quote unquote experts because , again , I'm not a glyphosate expert , but I know enough that there's only one governing body , and I'm pretty sure it's the AIRC , which is the same governing body , that kind of talks about meat being a cancer right , which we know isn't . I don't know straightforward cancer right , which we know isn't I don't know straightforward . You know there's some twisting of that presentation . So I , you know I have some trust issues to begin with from that body .

Natalie Kovarik 42:46

But everyone else , like the gosh , I should have written them down there's , I don't know , ama , like all the different organizations that are the E . There's one in Europe , like glyphosate is actually , you know , okayed in Europe to be used as well , like all of the governing bodies have said that through all the scientific study currently , you know , showing for glyphosate that it is , it is safe for human consumption at . Again , you're talking doses , poison , right , so there's all the lethal dose , certain amounts to pay attention to . Oh , shoot , there was one more thing I was going to say . I just lost my , my train of thought . Shoot , well , it'll come back .

Philip Pape 43:19

No , it's okay , and's okay . And my brain's going on tangents as well as we speak , because I just heard an episode of Dr Gabriel Lyons . Yeah , yeah , she had Dr David Thurfield on . He's a long time USDA scientist and he's the one who challenged the WHO's classification of red meat as a carcinogen .

Philip Pape 43:38

Yes , and his whole position is that our whole history of nutritional epidemiology is flawed in terms of its attempt to show causation with all this stuff , and so much policy has been driven by small groups of fairly biased scientists who have used small subsets of data often flawed , but even if it's not , it's small to make these big conclusions . So I think I like your message of my point that the default position should be don't be afraid of like all the food out there , but be informed and understand why you're making the choices . You are Right .

Natalie Kovarik 44:08

Yeah , no , I love that I had someone say once um , like , tell me what you care about and then I'll tell you how to shop , because there's just so many different things to pay attention to . And so , like you mentioned earlier , like that vegan vegetarian

Whole Foods Diet and Factory Farming Myths

Natalie Kovarik 44:20

, they're going to , you know , have really strong animal welfare stances that maybe someone else wouldn't care for and that would choose them to pick something else . And I think there are so many different things when it comes to the food system that you do have different . I mean , thankfully we do have , you know , we can go to the grocery store and there are a ton of different options , you know , to fit the choices that are important to you . But , yeah , the overall message is , like you know , as America , we do have a safe food system .

Natalie Kovarik 44:42

I think we're starting to intertwine safe and healthy and those are completely separate things . So , like we have a safe food system , do we have a healthy food system ? No , we don't have a healthy food system , right ? So , going back to some of the conversation of seed oils and ultra processed foods , right , like you're not getting , you know , even though people love to say you're getting poison , you know , in the food . It's like we're losing point of actually what the word poison means .

Natalie Kovarik 45:05

Right , they're safe foods , but they're not healthy for you , and we're intermixing those conversations . So , when you go to the grocery store , the food in there is safe , it is being regulated , there are checks and balances . You are getting food that is safe to consume . There are going to be different options to choose from from a health standpoint and that's where , as you said , doing some of that informed research so that you're not falling for that greenwashing and you're spending your dollar on a true premium product to get the actual different when it comes to the health standpoint , there are differences there . I don't want to say there aren't , but at the end of the day , I am a firm believer we have a very safe food system .

Philip Pape 45:43

Awesome . Yeah , no , and that is a good distinction . And when you say healthy , I know you . Earlier you said diet consisting mostly of whole foods . I think most would agree . I would agree it gets you healthy . Like it's the dietary pattern . You can have some Snickers and Pop-Tarts in there , as long as it's mostly whole foods . I think that's some people don't grasp . It's like that and trying to go the opposite extreme . I don't know what you think , but like orthorexia or like obsession with totally clean eating , where you're literally moralizing everything else , can be destructive too . I know there's a few people that can maybe live that way , and I don't know what are your thoughts on clean eating .

Natalie Kovarik 46:17

Yeah , yeah , no for sure , especially with social media . You know , when you're getting like what I eat in a day and all these different you know influencers and the . You know the , the , the food they're consuming . Yeah , it's a pretty I would . We've actually covered on the podcast . It was a while ago but we had this conversation of , you know , food elitism , as you said , like food ortho , or was it ortho ? Yeah , thank you .

Natalie Kovarik 46:43

Basically , a lot of eating disorders , you know , can be stemmed from social media and getting too over consumed by different diets . So , no , I'm a pretty firm believer whole foods , everything in moderation . Like you'll catch me , you know still having some goldfish . You know I'll buy my kids some goldfish . I'm not super concerned about it Because for the most part , they're getting like a really good breakfast , right , they're getting , you know , a lot of , I mean , as a rancher , obviously , like animal protein is the forefront of our plate almost every single meal , every single day . So , like , I feel like I am giving , you know , a really solid foundation of a whole food diet for myself and my family .

Natalie Kovarik 47:15

And then , yeah , I don't stress over food dyes , like we had that conversation of . Like should they be removed ? Sure , like , remove them from the you know , all the different foods that they're in . It doesn't really matter to me because the amount that I'm giving my family like I'm not concerned about them Same with , like you know , different additives and preservatives and things like that . It's like if you're having a most whole food diet , then when you have some of those different things you know , like you said , our bodies are built to process , detox and get rid of things . So everything in moderation . It's all about the whole foods , in my opinion .

Philip Pape 47:46

Isn't it funny ? That's what your grandma said right Everything in moderation and eat a diverse diet , just eat a bunch of different foods , a lot of colors on your plate . A lot of those things actually still hold up All right . So I guess the last thing is is there any other myth ? As a rancher who sees behind the scenes of the food supply that's either costing people money or angst , or just don't worry about it , people , is there a myth that we haven't covered ?

Natalie Kovarik 48:10

No , but I will give a friendly little reminder , or at least not something that comes to mind . I'm sure there's a lot of myths . I will give a little last friendly minute reminder for everyone that words like factory farms are used and we can , you know , get into large scale production agriculture , and I think there's a lot of , again , imagery on social media and fear mongering around like big scale agriculture . And it's true . Right , there are , you know , a spectrum of different sizes of farms and ranches in the industry . But bigger doesn't always mean bad , like yes , maybe in some instances a big operation isn't doing a good job and they are bad , but just because something has grown in scale doesn't mean it is bad in any industry , and that rings true of the food industry . So I just don't want people to be fearful of the agriculture industry . I want them to remind them that , no matter the size , there is a family , there is a person behind it .

Natalie Kovarik 49:01

We just did an episode not too long ago where we were talking to a strawberry farmer and every single strawberry in the grocery store is handpicked and hand planted . There is actually no mechanized machine to use for strawberries , so they're behind that vat of strawberries , whether it was conventional , organic or small scale or large scale . There was a person who picked and planted it . Asparagus is the same way . It needs to be hand cut Like . So there , there are people behind your food and I think it's easy to lose sight of that with some of the things going around around social media and some of the organizations and , you know , activists that want to kind of make you lose sight of that and feel like if it's big it must be terrible and bad . But there are families raising your food and again , you know we're we're lucky enough to be in in America where we have safe food , and then we get to get into the nuanced conversation of how you know , what extra premium do I want to pay for when it comes to , you know , some of the extra things ?

Philip Pape 49:57

Yeah , that's a privilege . Yeah for sure . I agree we should be grateful and going . Connecting back to the earlier story about food doesn't just come from a grocery store . It comes from people that made it happen , working with animals and crops and lots of labor and lots of chain along the way . And if you extrapolated all that work and guessed how much a food would cost , it would be far beyond what we're lucky to be able to pay for it . And I know that's not comfort to people who live paycheck to paycheck and inflation . I mean , I know how much it costs to go to the grocery store a month . It's well over a thousand dollars now . You know , years ago it was like 600 bucks for a family of four , or 500 bucks . Now it's like 1200 , 1500 , but that's not their fault , that's the economy . So anyway , this has been awesome . I love the nuance and the flexibility that you're giving people and I encourage people to check out your show . So , besides the podcast , natalie , where else do you want them to find you ?

Natalie Kovarik 50:51

Yep . So , as you said , probably tuning in your podcast person . So our podcast would be the best place where every Thursday it's Discover Ag and our cover photo is two girls head to toe in denim we're in denim tuxedos , I'm holding a chicken and my co-host is holding a hot dog . So that is how you know you found the right podcast . It's a very one of a kind cover art for you . But beyond that , if you're interested in the beef industry and what it's like to be a rancher , or you want to know more about the beef industry and what it is like where your beef is coming from , you can follow me personally at Natalie Kvorik . I'm on a few different social media platforms and all of them are under my name , and then you can also follow Discover Ag on social media , and we're on YouTube as well . So in case you know someone that listens or watches on YouTube instead of listens , we're present there too .

Philip Pape 51:40

Very nice . I'll put those all in the show notes . Thanks again , Allie , it's , it's been awesome . I learned a ton myself . It also I hopefully , hopefully reduces some of the stress for people when they're going to the grocery store this week . So thank you .

Natalie Kovarik 51:52

Yeah , no , thank you .