The Problem with "Just Lift Heavy"

Philip Pape 0:01

Your doctor just told you that you need to start lifting heavy weights to prevent bone loss , but you can barely do a push-up and haven't been in a gym in years . If that sounds familiar , then today my returning guest , the amazing Megan Dahlman , is going to help you by revealing why this well-meaning medical advice is actually setting women up for failure and injury . You'll learn all about osteosarcopenia and why it's becoming an epidemic among women over 40 , as well as surprising truths about weighted vests and other strategies that are often marketed for menopause . Most importantly , you're going to learn the minimum effective dose of resistance training that actually works for beginners , without the intimidation or overwhelm that keeps so many women stuck on the sidelines , even though they absolutely need to strengthen those bones and muscles . Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency . I'm your host , philip Pape , and today we're discussing a critical health issue that's flying under the radar for millions of women .

Philip Pape 1:14

My guest is returning to the show for her third appearance Megan Dahlman , a certified strength and conditioning specialist with over 17 years of experience coaching women over 40 . You might remember her from past episodes where we discussed midlife belly fat and reducing back pain and joint inflammation . I'll throw those links in the show notes . Megan holds a degree in exercise science and specializes in helping women navigate the physical challenges of midlife with sustainable strength training . Pain-free mobility that's her specialty . She has an amazing YouTube channel on these topics and today she's here to discuss osteosarcopenia . Osteosarcopenia a condition of simultaneous bone loss and muscle loss that affects over a quarter of women over 50 . You're going to learn why the standard advice of just lift heavy is missing nuance and context and you might be surprised to hear that on this show , especially if you've never trained before how to build a foundation of strength safely and progressively . And , of course , what the science says about the minimum effective dose needed to protect your bones and muscles as you age . Megan , my friend , welcome back to the show .

Megan Dahlman 2:23

Philip , it is so good to be here . I love chatting with you . I feel like we always get into some phenomenal conversations , whether it's going down rabbit holes , I always feel like we have so much fun chatting together .

Philip Pape 2:35

We do . I mean , that's why we chatted for so long before we even hit record . Today we have a good time and listeners are going to learn a ton today I know I am as well and let's just start right off the bat defining what the heck we're talking about when we say osteosarcopenia

Understanding Osteosarcopenia: The Hazardous Duo

Philip Pape 2:50

.

Megan Dahlman 2:50

Well , this is what is sometimes called the hazardous duo . This is the hazardous duo , so it's kind of a newly described syndrome that really highlights the fact that your muscles and bones are a unit . They don't work in isolation , they go together . You can't have a healthy bone without healthy muscle . You can't have a healthy muscle without bone to be there supporting it . So it's kind of recognizing that muscles and bones coexist , and so osteosarcopenia is the degradation of that muscle bone unit , and so these are two chronic musculoskeletal conditions that are associated with aging , and they're both accelerated in menopausal women , which is a little nerve-wracking .

Philip Pape 3:43

Yeah , it's nerve-wracking , especially the degree to which that happens due to the differences in the sexes and the hormones , and we should get into that . So this is interesting . Osteosarcopenia do you know off the top of your head ? Is this term referred to in the literature , or is this a fun portmanteau that we're using ?

Megan Dahlman 3:57

You know , literature is starting to refer to it because if we go back to about 2017 , that's where this word starts to pop up and some of them are using it in slight . They might say sarco , osteoporosis or osteosarcopenia , but we're starting to see experts and researchers clump them together because the more research they're doing , the more they're realizing like these are so closely tied for both biomechanical and biochemical reasons , that we kind of have to have them both in the conversation always , and so my hope is that we start to see this term be more as a syndrome , because I think , especially with doctors and prescribers and clinicians that are helping people with one thing or the other , whether it's sarcopenia or osteoporosis if we can start to show people like these things are really connected , I think we're going to get better outcomes .

Philip Pape 4:57

Yeah , I totally agree , because you can't . Especially when someone asks about a lifting regimen or how do I support my aging , and we talk about muscles by themselves , you know you get a lot of sort of objections in the head like , well , I'm not trying to build muscles , I'm not trying to improve my physique , I'm not trying to maybe even get stronger Although we should all be trying to get stronger , in my opinion . And then when you say , well , what about bone density ? Oh yeah , that's extremely important for me as a woman is bone density . You know , my mother had osteoporosis and everybody was on Bonivo when I was a kid and whatever , and it's like the connecting the two makes sense . And you mentioned both the biomechanics and I think you said hormones or what did ?

Megan Dahlman 5:36

you say Biochemical .

Philip Pape 5:38

Right Chemical .

Bone-Muscle Connection: Biomechanics and Biochemistry

Philip Pape 5:39

So talk about that . Where's the interdependence between those Talk ?

Megan Dahlman 5:43

about that ? Where's the interdependence between those ? So mechanically , so when a muscle is used , when it's pulling against a bone , so when there's certain mechanical forces applied to the bone above a certain threshold okay , so there is a little bit of a threshold that you got to be above it can actually stimulate more bone synthesis in that area . That's why strength training is so magical , and I know we're going to get into that later but strength training pushes and pulls against the bone along the full length of the bone in multiple planes of motion , versus like just impact or vertical jumping type of stuff . You're really just creating impact along the bone in one vertical plane . So we want these mechanical forces to be pushing , pulling against the bone because all of those contact points or those attachment points on that bone , it will be stimulated to create more bone synthesis .

Megan Dahlman 6:38

So that's the mechanical side of things . But then we also have this biochemical side . So there's some complex like endocrine mechanisms that are actually signaled when your muscles are loaded . So muscle loading induces this cascade of biochemical signals that are necessary for bone growth and remodeling , which is really key because of all you're ever doing is , you know , taking the bone evo or the osteoporosis supplement or whatever it might be , You're not getting the benefit of those muscle loading chemical signals that are necessary for bone growth and remodeling . So it's kind of all of these two things combined that creates a really healthy bone muscle unit .

Philip Pape 7:31

That's really good . I'm going to be using that going forward , megan , because we talk about muscle being an endocrine organ and how . I think it's one of the less paid attention to organs . In fact , we know in medical training it's hardly , it's almost an afterthought compared to the other systems like cardiopulmonary systems and whatnot . Right Cardiac health , but not like muscle-centric medicine or health . But what you just said is that there are signals from the muscle that affects bone growth .

Megan Dahlman 7:56

Yeah , and here's the craziest thing too . One more study I read said that in individuals with fractures so someone who gets a bone fracture let's say it's not an osteoporotic type of fracture , like they just break a bone somehow Healing times are quicker in those who have more muscle mass . This has been repeatedly demonstrated that the presence of healthy muscle tissue is a positive factor for fracture healing . Isn't that wild ?

Philip Pape 8:25

It is . It is wild . I mean , there are so many of these little surprises about muscle and how they translate to other systems . Even the act of training will send signals to fat cells and help you be more efficient and burn more fat and burn more calories , irrespective of how much muscle you have , even just the act of it .

Megan Dahlman 8:44

Everything is communicating , nothing exists in its own organ . Like , your muscles are not a separate organ that you have to do something for your muscles and then your bones are this separate organ that you have to do something specific but , like everything , works together , collaboratively and communicates together all the time .

Philip Pape 9:01

I feel like Eastern medicine has known this for a long time the way they discuss the body . So let's hit on some of the points you mentioned . The threshold for bone synthesis Is that like a percent of your max type threshold ? We're talking about loading , or is there some other measurement for that ?

Megan Dahlman 9:16

This is hard to nail down . This is really . It's going to be relative to everybody , to each individual person . So really it's above whatever your baseline is of what your body does on a normal basis . So when we go into a training session , we're usually doing if we're following a good progressive training program we're usually going to be at or above a certain threshold .

Megan Dahlman 9:41

Maybe not every single workout session , but frequently we're doing something , we're pushing the limits just a little bit , and that's the type of scenario that's going to stimulate significant amount of muscle and bone growth . But we know that even training below you know that progress threshold is still valuable . So it's not like every time you show up for a workout we're going to have to like be maxing out every single time in order to see positive benefits . That's not the case . But as long as the training is above basically sedentary levels , you're going to be seeing some great benefits . So as far as like this is the threshold , it's too inconclusive to say specifically what that threshold is and it's going to be different for each person in every workout situation too .

Philip Pape 10:30

Yeah , and there's an overlap with the same things that drive your training for muscle growth anyway , in that you get two for one . You get two for one . We did an episode called strength versus hypertrophy you guys should definitely check that out where we talked about some actual numbers that seem to correlate with strength and muscle growth , and the bare minimum seemed to be 35% of your maximum , only because anything lighter than that it's like you could just go all day and it doesn't stress you , whereas 65% starts to affect your central nervous system and your strength . And I'm wondering where the bone development threshold is . And I ask that because , for example , dr Mike Isertil talked about . Somebody said what do you recommend for people over 50 ? And he's like well , I'd recommend big systemic lifts , fairly heavy , because of the bone density benefits . But we need to get into now , megan , what heavy means . We don't want to scare people away when doctors say just lift heavy . Let's get into that whole hot topic because that's a good segue for this .

Megan Dahlman 11:28

I feel like whenever we hear lift heavy , that lands on two different types of ears . It lands on the people who are already lifting heavy and really enjoy it and they're like , yes , I'm already doing it , I've got great bones . And then that recommendation lands on the ears of people that are have only ever done cardio or walking or Pilates or yoga and they're scared and they don't know what to do . And there's really rarely anybody in between . And so when doctors prescribe lifting heavy , yes , okay , so bones and muscles do need some heavy load Like we were talking about that above a certain threshold to be able to stimulate this synthesis , this muscle growth and bone growth kind of simultaneously . But we have to consider that your body , like we said , nothing exists in a vacuum . Your bones and muscles don't exist in a vacuum , but also

Weighted Vests: The Hard Truth

Megan Dahlman 12:21

there are also , like discs in your spine , tendons and ligaments , the rest of her endocrine system , your inflammatory system that we're also having to contend with . So for particularly women in midlife that are already dealing with higher levels of inflammation , that can make your soft tissues , like those tendons and fascia and other soft tissues in your body , more sensitive to inflammation , jumping straight into lifting heavy can be extremely problematic if you don't approach it properly . This is where we get a lot of reports of suddenly I have plantar fasciitis or I've got elbow tendonitis out of the blue . I wanted to start lifting heavy and I don't know what to do . I had a phone call with a client a few weeks ago and she got put she this is the exact scenario . She saw her doctor . The doctor's like your bone numbers don't look good . You need to start lifting heavy . So she went home , hopped online , googled heavy lifting program for women . Found . Hopped online , googled heavy lifting program for women . Found a heavy lifting program . Had her lifting heavy overhead , she slipped three discs in her neck and dealt with migraines for the next four months .

Megan Dahlman 13:43

No-transcript . A lot of these women and men might not have a background in strength training and understanding their body mechanics and understanding body control and how to do a basic body weight squat , let alone put a barbell on their back or have them do a deadlift , getting into a bent over position , which is essentially a deadlift into a hip hinge . It's really a technically complicated position if you've never been taught how to do that , and so if someone is gonna go into the gym and walk up to a barbell , they're not gonna know how to do it properly and they'll end up getting hurt . And so it's such a nuanced conversation where , yes , our end goal might be let's get you to the point where you are eventually lifting heavy for your bones . That doesn't mean that that's where you should start .

Philip Pape 14:36

And you know what ? I know we're talking about women here , but men it's the same thing .

Heather 14:41

I will say , and I have personal experience .

Philip Pape 14:43

You talk about form . I consider myself fairly athletic and I was in the physical therapy office the other day and you could see someone who is the opposite of that which I've heard called motor morons . No , no offense to the guy where he was being asked .

Megan Dahlman 14:56

Okay that's what I like to say . There's a lack of body awareness and coordination .

Philip Pape 15:02

Clumsy , yeah yeah , you know , athletically clumsy , and you'll give someone an instruction and without the guidance , they , they just can't get it right . Like he was being told to retract a scapula , like hold his elbows locked .

Megan Dahlman 15:14

He's like I don't know what retract means , let alone what my scapula are .

Philip Pape 15:17

Yeah , exactly and even when described the right way , he's like bending his elbows and everything . And so some people , even if they mean well , men or women , women are going to have that issue . And you're right , connective tissue is highly underspoken about with older individuals because they do get more pliable and sensitive . You talk about inflammation . Oh , I did a whole episode just about inflammation related to lifestyle , because that's usually what causes it , not food , you know , not eating seed oils , it's the whole lifestyle of chronic stress and sitting and things like that .

Philip Pape 15:50

I recall myself having shoulder issues and I tried to get back to it too quickly with the heaviness because a little bit of ego , because I had been able to lift heavier , but at that point in my life I really needed to back it down and then progress there . And so what happened is , you know , all that stress on the tendons as I'm pressing , pressing , pressing , boom , I got bursitis . You know , a few weeks later and it's always a lag right , never does necessarily happen the next day . It takes a little while sometimes . So everything you're saying , people should listen up when we say heavy , like I think , yes , heavy relative to what you need to progress , per what Megan said earlier , but not so heavy with bad form , without guidance for your situation that you cause all of these issues .

Megan Dahlman 16:32

So a hundred percent , a hundred percent , ease into it , always build up , like , ask yourself , where am I at right now ? Like , sure , you might have a long training history . In the past . I've got a number of women that I work with that they , you know , used to do orange theory for a period of time or that one time that they had that CrossFit gym membership and we're doing that . And so 10 years later they're like I really need to get back to doing that and I want to just like hold them by the shoulders and shake them a little bit and say that's not where your body is right now .

Megan Dahlman 17:06

So if you try to go back to that , those are all probably wonderful moves . Sure , maybe we could get there , maybe . But what does your body need right now ? Where are you starting at now ? Where's your conditioning level right now ? Do we need to work on your technique ? Do you have shoulder bursitis that we've got to deal with at the moment ? First , like , where are you at right now ? And you're , you hit the nail on the head when you said my ego , because that's usually the thing that gets in the in the way of doing the proper program that our body needs at this moment .

Philip Pape 17:38

So get your ego aside and and do

Minimum Effective Dose for Beginners

Philip Pape 17:42

like train smart for where your body is right now so that leads to the natural question people , okay , what do I do if it's not CrossFit or 45 , which it's not ? It's not . I can tell you it's not . That adds its own stress and bad form and everything to speed and everything else . A woman in her forties or fifties , totally new to this . We don't know if she's a motor moron or not . Just kidding .

Philip Pape 18:07

We all are kind of yeah , of course of course she could reach out to you , go check out your YouTube videos and do your program , but I mean principle wise what's a good place to start ?

Megan Dahlman 18:21

Body weight only , strength training moves . Just start by moving your own body through the basic moves Like learn how to do a squat properly . Do and start doing that . Get your knees familiar with squatting , your hips familiar , your ankles familiar with squatting . Not just one rep , but get them familiar with doing eight of them in a row . Do hip hinges . That's that deadlift action that we're talking about . Get familiar with that movement . It's going to start to train your hips , your glutes , your core in a collaborative way . Start to do some of these full body movements where you don't need any equipment that might be distracting the moment you try to hold on to something or even put a vest on or have some sort of equipment in the picture like a band , like it's just distracting and it's going to distract you from your own technique . I recommend having a mirror nearby or even setting up your phone to record yourself .

Megan Dahlman 19:17

I did a workout with a friend over the weekend . They were visiting us and she was like do you want to work out together ? I'm like when am I ever going to say no to that ? So we worked out and I , I , I paused her a handful of times . She's not a trainer . So I paused her a handful of times , just getting into the bent over position . I'm like , wait , wait , wait , set the weights down but freeze frame .

Megan Dahlman 19:37

And I took a picture of her and I showed her and in her , like just bent over position , like you're doing a row , her spine was completely rounded and for her it felt correct . Like her body feedback was saying this is right . And I said , okay , we got to get you more neutral , which actually means like a little bit of curvature at your low back . And she's like , oh my gosh , that feels so weird . So when you're first starting out , your body might not be giving you the correct feedback . So if we're adding a lot of weights and machines and stuff to the picture , it's just a lot that's confusing . So start with body weight only strength training moves . It's the easiest way to start , like lowest barrier to entry too .

Philip Pape 20:21

And you just you . You explained why , right , which is important because there's a lot of noise out there when it comes to training . You know people will hear me talk about barbells , but they don't see behind the scenes how you know , I want to show somebody how to set their footstands first and then how to sit back down into it and like all the steps you're talking about where . Look at your from the side , look at yourself from 45 degrees and just evaluate each of these things and listen . When I learned to squat I try I watched a million videos , I did a million body weight squats and I still didn't have it quite right until I worked with a coach who said you know what ? Here's some subtle things that you still need to fix .

Philip Pape 20:55

It's a skill right , it's a skill , and so the proprioception , I think , is the fancy word for like , your awareness of your body in space . Again , if , whether you are athletic or not , if you've trained yourself through bad habits like a bad golf swing , it could feel fine . And habits like a bad golf swing , it could feel fine . And you know back flexion and all that people just don't quite understand until you explain it to them . So , yeah , these are good . Recording yourself is probably one of the best tips you just said . People don't do it enough .

Megan Dahlman 21:19

People don't do it enough . They're in their excuses . I just don't like what I look like on me . It's like okay , no , you're not showing this to anybody else , you don't have to show it . You can delete it immediately after the fact . But I don't want you moving incorrectly .

Megan Dahlman 21:34

And one thing I always say is never train bad technique .

Smart Programming Approaches for Results

Megan Dahlman 21:39

So if you're using bad technique and if you continue to use it over and over again , you're training your body that that's how you're supposed to do it . So even if , like , you're pushing really hard or you're doing an exercise and you're getting to the final few reps and you have to contort your body to make it happen , you're like I get that question a lot Like , should I just push through ? And my answer is never train bad technique . You're going to start to teach your body that this is how we do it and this is okay to do it . It's always going to put you at risk . So the only way to know if you're training bad technique is if you have something that's giving you feedback , whether it's a trainer , that you're working with a mirror or recording yourself on your phone . Just do it once or twice and you'll be like oh my gosh , that helped so much A hundred percent .

Philip Pape 22:29

Yeah , and you mentioned how , if you yeah you train your bad habits , that become worse . I would add to that that your leverages in your cross-sectional area on your body , they change based on your weight as well . Your body can be changing too , if you're like eating more , or maybe you're dieting and fat whatever , and when you add more , when you do start adding weight I know we weren't even talking about that , but once you do add weight , that changes the center of gravity and then heavier weight changes it more . So it never ends Like you have to learn how you respond in your different body types and weights . Do you agree with that ?

Megan Dahlman 23:04

A hundred percent , and this is might be getting ahead of myself , but I know we were planning on talking about weighted vests too .

Philip Pape 23:11

Oh , I was going to go there next because you mentioned it . So , oh my gosh , so we can go there now if you want .

Megan Dahlman 23:15

but like this is often what happens when you just strap on a weighted vest to your body to do strength training workout . I like the idea , but you have to be careful that that's not altering your technique , because your center of gravity just changed . It probably moved a little higher on your body and your balance kind of that your ability to control this added weight that's now wrapped around your body it's going to change . So just be aware that when you do put on a weighted vest for a workout like a strength training workout , it could be altering your mechanics . So be aware , yeah .

Philip Pape 23:53

So ? So then you have to put on a weighted calf weights . My daughters and I were playing Jenga yesterday and we got to the highest we ever got . It was like there were like three rows that didn't , that didn't , that weren't down to , just the two blocks .

Megan Dahlman 24:07

Just the two little ones .

Philip Pape 24:08

Yeah , right , and but the very top of the tower gets so wobbly because that center of gravity , so like when you try to take stuff from the top it's like that . So your weighted vest is just shifting that gravity up , moving your gravity up you know , unless you have a big butt or like really developed those legs in parallel or something .

Heather 24:26

So speaking of the weighted , vest then , like there it's .

Philip Pape 24:28

it's a big trend right now . Yep , I've been into rucking for years and I've recommended that to folks , but what's going on with the weighted vest ? Like let's talk about it .

Megan Dahlman 24:38

So I feel like , unfortunately , right now the weighted vest trend is is really catching on in the perimenopausal space .

Megan Dahlman 24:46

So the women between the ages of like 40 and 50 , it's now this like social media joke like you know , you're 40 when you're walking with a weighted vest and I feel like going on weighted vest walking is being used as a get out of jail free card . If I just walk with a vest , I'm doing what I need to for my bones and I don't need to do any strength training . Most studies looking at the effectiveness of walking with a weighted vest are not very conclusive studies and in fact they're usually comparing one group who didn't exercise at all with another group that walked with a weighted vest . Obviously , the group that walked with a weighted vest saw some improvements in their bone density . There's one interesting study that I liked a lot that showed a no walking group , a walking group , walking with a weighted vest . I'm like , okay , now we've got a good study that actually compares things properly . There was no difference in bone density between the non-weighted vest and the weighted vest group .

Philip Pape 25:49

The only difference was improved balance interesting , and is that that's because the load was just not enough ?

Megan Dahlman 25:56

the load was higher on their body . So now they had this like new proprioception thing that they had to deal with , but when it came to bone density , it didn't really it's too . It's no , if you're rucking up hills , you know that's . That's really challenging . I mean , what is a classic rec ? That's 40 pounds , right .

Philip Pape 26:17

Yeah , I mean 25 to 50 is usually what I recommend yeah , yeah .

Megan Dahlman 26:21

So the the thing is like all these studies showed walking weighted vests , but then when you compare that to what just strength training does for your bones , it pales in comparison . Like strength training , like it blows them all out of the water . Nothing can even come close . The wet walking with a weighted vest does not even come close , and so that's the beef I have with walking with a weighted vest .

Megan Dahlman 26:49

If that's all you're doing , you're not doing your bones as great of a favor as you think you are . If it means that it's kind of a fun , newfangled thing that's getting you active Now you previously had been sedentary , but now it's motivating and fun newfangled thing that's getting you active . Now you previously had been sedentary , but now it's motivating , and there's this placebo effect of like I think it's doing something good and that's compelling you to exercise more . I am all here for that . But when it comes to bone density because that's what a lot of them feel like that's what we're doing this for it's not doing as much as you think . Like very marginal strength training is going to do way more .

Philip Pape 27:26

Yeah , and then the way to vest to me , if you compare it to rucking , may provide a tiny boost in . You know how many calories you burn per mile , or something like that . Very small , very little . And then it's associated it's used to be associated with , like military or CrossFit style workouts where you just toss that on and run up hills and stuff and that's cool , it's all fun and games . But , yeah , strength training . So let's talk about strength training then . Yeah , the next level . So you've got your movement patterns safe and neutral . Back , you're learning how to use your ankles , hips , your joints , you know , getting that blood flow which feels great when you start lifting . It's just so good . Guys , if you haven't lifted , what are you waiting for ? This is wits and weights . This is Megan Dolan . You've got to be lifting . And so what does the research or your experience tell us about minimum effective dose once you start loading and progressing ? And that could be either intensity and load , or we could be talking volume or frequency or all of those .

Megan Dahlman 28:20

Sure . So first of all , the most important factor is not necessarily dosage but consistency . So the positive impacts on your bone and muscle mass really really are going to come down to how consistent are you with this thing ? Because you could have one really like dialed workout per month . But we know , I mean like that's an anecdotal thing , but that's where a lot of people go Like if I'm going to show up for a workout , it's got to like all of my numbers have to be spot on and perfect . And then for the perfectionist listening they're like well , if I can't do that , then I'm not going to do anything at all , and so their consistency with training is nowhere where it should be . So the most important factor first is just your consistency . But it is generally agreed that a minimum of two 30-minute resistance training sessions per week is ideal . So we can see some benefits , some progress , some benefits with two 30-minute strength training sessions per week and muscle change .

Megan Dahlman 29:30

So stimulation on the muscles , so some adaptations for the muscles can be seen in a wide range of repetition ranges . So forever we were always saying like you gotta like don't do 20 rep things . You know , make sure that you're staying in the six to eight rep or six to 12 . But we do see some adaptations in those higher rep ranges too . Now are they the adaptations that we want ? You know , we're getting some more endurance capacity in those muscles , which is really great for those muscles .

Megan Dahlman 30:01

But if we're wanting to really see some muscle growth , like that hypertrophy , usually the six to 12 repetition range is great , which means that if six is the number you're aiming for , when you get to five it should feel tough and that number six should feel really challenging . But with good technique right , you might only have one rep left in the tank , maybe two with good technique . So that's kind of the range that we're looking for . We can see improvements in as little as one set with an exercise . Two to three sets is great , but the difference between so two sets of an exercise is significantly better than one set .

Megan Dahlman 30:44

So I'm saying like backwards one set is good . We see change , two sets even better . The difference between two and three sets is pretty minimal . We do still see some changes , but it's not as exponential as the difference between one and two sets , difference between zero and one sets .

Philip Pape 31:05

I think we know the difference , infinite difference , of anything yeah .

Megan Dahlman 31:08

Infinite difference . And then it really comes down to the greatest changes once again , our consistency , but moving every day , somehow . So even those people that are strength training , lifting weights or doing some form of strength training , twice a week , maybe three times a week , those other days that you're not lifting weights , stay moving . Stay working your body . It doesn't need to be a full workout . It could be going for a walk , could be doing some mobility work , some of that supplementary stuff ,

Getting Started: Overcoming Common Barriers

Megan Dahlman 31:40

which I highly recommend , but stay moving every day . And that's what's going to that consistency over time , with these little bouts of higher resistance . That's where we're going to see some great impact . Perfect .

Philip Pape 31:54

So I love everything you said because it's accessible and it's a place that anyone can start and go from zero to zero to hero , go up to a really great level of performance , and I often recommend at least two set two sessions as well for older folks generally I hate to say older , but you know , the older we get just because of recoverability and your schedules and practicality and all that and then you get into it right , and then you're going three , maybe four days a week .

Megan Dahlman 32:20

You get into it right , and then you're going three , maybe four days a week to get into it . I'm usually at three per week . It feels good for me . I like three Usually . My third one might not be quite as heavy and might be a little bit more of the body weight strength training stuff , but for me personally , I lift at least two days a week , usually three , and that feels really good to me . Yeah , yeah .

Philip Pape 32:43

Yeah , it has to , and it's got to work with your sleep schedule and how long your sessions can be and if you're commuting to the gym and all that stuff Exactly .

Philip Pape 32:51

So let's , let's drill down a little bit deeper , because we talked about maybe nerding out on stuff and if Phil ever put you on the spot cause I know there's a lot of science out there that neither of us probably know all of it I want to talk about that . I had a keyword in here from when I was researching for the show osteogenic , which is like the level at which bone adaptation occurs . It's osteogenic , Cool word and there were three things that came up and I want to understand your points on it and whether we're leaving something on the table or not . The first one is load , which we already slightly touched on . But I have seen a lot of research that says , like , real adaptation occurs at a fairly high level of your max , like 85% , you know , like even beyond just the strength threshold , Like what are your thoughts on that ? Should someone at some point think about getting into that regime or is it more of a one percenter ?

Megan Dahlman 33:38

If someone enjoys that . I think that a lot of people that actually are , you know , have gotten an osteopenia diagnosis . They're typically midlife or older , where their health up to that point , you know , they hadn't been lifting weights . So that's why they're here , that's why they're in this situation . The idea of lifting at such a high percentage of max feels really scary and you know they might never want to try to do that . So what's interesting is I've had a handful of clients who've gone through my year program and started out with certain bone density numbers that were pretty much borderline osteoporosis , like right in those beginning numbers of osteoporosis , and that was really scary for them . And these are women in their like early fifties just going through my programs , which we don't lift really really I always encourage them to push themselves , but everyone's level of what they push themselves is a little bit different . I don't give them a set number or anything . It's just like we're going to do eight reps . Make it hard , like let's go a little harder than what you did last week .

Megan Dahlman 34:49

After a year pretty much every one of the women that has been in my programs has seen significant improvements in their bone density and many of them have been able to completely reverse their diagnosis and they're no longer even considered osteopenia . So that's a really good , like just example of you don't have to . You can still see benefits in your bones , like dramatic benefits in your bones . You know , with all else , other factors your nutrition has improved , your stress loads have improved , like there's so many other things at play here . But you don't have to if you don't want to . And lifting heavy can look very different . It doesn't have to look like barbells , it can look like dumbbells , it can look like things you machines , it can look like kettlebells and whatever you have access to . So it's such a nuanced conversation . So I like lifting heavy like a super heavy loads , but I know that a lot of people just don't like doing that .

Philip Pape 35:52

Yeah , and I wanted to challenge it a little bit for you to give that answer , because there there's there's always carve outs and nuance , and I know there's research on I'll call it frailty , and people don't want to think of themselves as frail , but if you're on the border of osteoporosis , you have a sense of frailty in your body . It doesn't mean you are frail or that you can't go after it and like reclaim that power , right , yes , and where you could go at a much lower load and get , as long as you're using progressive overload . So then that leads to the second piece of this , which is explosiveness , or velocity , or like force over time type training , or what do they call strain rate . The strain rate , I think , is what it's called where you have it could be jumping and bounding in there , but it could just as well being when you're doing the lift on the concentric , you explode , which we want to do anyway for muscle and strength . Yeah , do you ? Do you focus on that a lot or does it just come along for the ride ?

Megan Dahlman 36:39

Yeah , I put it in a category of power development and so really any time that you're contracting at a faster pace than just your regular rhythm . This is so important for injury prevention , especially for those that are getting older and might be frail . So we do have evidence that impact work is very valuable for bone density . I love doing the type of impact work in a strength training setting or in a training setting , versus going out and going for like a three mile run .

Megan Dahlman 37:13

Yes , that's impact , but that's a lot of repetitive in the same motion , same plane of motion . It can be . It can sometimes create a lot of wear and tear on already damaged joints and exacerbate compensation patterns that someone might have . So doing the highly repetitive like impact work is not something I'm a huge fan of for someone who has osteoporosis and wants to improve it , but incorporating some of that higher speed power work , I love it for multiple reasons . However , we can only do it if you already have a really thick foundation of strength , so I want to know that your mechanics of doing a squat are perfect before we ever do a squat jump or a box jump Like you got it . I'm not going to make you do a squat jump if you can't even do a proper squat , like that's square one , you know , or bounding .

Philip Pape 38:06

It's like the Olympic lifts and CrossFit people jump right into that .

Heather 38:12

Hello , my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace .

Heather 38:16

Just six days after I started this cut , my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana , turkey .

Heather 38:23

As I tried to process the stress and trauma , my first instinct was to say , oh , you've been through something hard , this is not a good time . But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day , and not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body , but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months . Here I am on the other side of eight weeks , got my kids through all the things that we have been through , and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did , and I got a new PR on my bench press . I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish , but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful . Thank you , philip .

Megan Dahlman 39:12

Everything is a progression . So thinking like progressive overload , but also progressive overload with the exercise programming themselves , and this is where we can nerd out on like program design . But if you're going to design and have a good program , you're going to know that this exercise today , next month , is going to progress into this variation of it , which is going to progress into that variation of it Really great example I love to use is I always teach the basic squat first , and then we progress to a staggered squat where one foot is just slightly more forward than normal and we get good at that , which is kind of this offset stance , and then we progress to a split squat . So now we're starting to look more like a lunge . We're not stepping yet . You're not stepping in

Final Resources and Recommendations

Megan Dahlman 40:01

and out , your feet are still planted , but now there's more balance .

Megan Dahlman 40:04

Your hips have to work differently , your core has to work , and then we add some stepping with it , like a reverse lunge is usually the easiest . Then we do a walking lunge , then we do a lunge in place and then maybe we'll try a lunge jump at the very end Awesome . And then maybe we'll try a lunge jump at the very end , you know . So like that's kind of how you would properly progress up to those higher power movements . Now there's some movements that are less risky . You know a lot of medicine ball work is not as risky like a medicine ball slam , like just slamming that down no-transcript . And medicine ball is beautiful for that , for a lot of that power work , that for older individuals it can be fun and it's not as dangerous . But definitely something like Olympic lifting , box jumping , hurdle hopping , great for bones . But let's build up to it properly .

Philip Pape 41:02

For sure . But you mentioned reverse lunge . I actually did some this morning the safety squat bar , and it had been a long time and it's your body gets detrained from some of these movements where you're like , okay , I can't go as heavy as I did last time , let me just take it easy , because those quads are burning . Yeah , one thing that came to mind when you're talking about programming you talked about programming .

Philip Pape 41:21

One thing I've been doing a lot lately and telling people about is top set back offset , which is , you know , the top set is like heavier , maybe a lower rep range , like four to six or six to eight , and then you drop the weight by like 10 to 20% and then your second set is eight to 12 or 12 to 15 to kind of get both the strength and the hypertrophy and limit it to two sets . So your sessions are kind of short and you really train hard because you're only doing two . So I'm tying it to everything you said about like what's optimum and practical at the same time . Is two sets enough ? Is three days enough ? How can you get the rep ranges in , but also maybe test the waters with heavy , all of that ? So what's like some of your favorite programming schemes that are somebody listening , even if they are newer , they don't get too overwhelmed . They're like , okay , that's interesting I .

Megan Dahlman 42:04

One of my favorite is circuits . So I almost love programming in circuits , whether it's a superset , so you just do two exercises at a time . I love that for like just mental focus . A superset , I like to call them couplets , so two exercises at a time where you just kind of go back and forth . Now you could do like two exercises that compliment each other like a push and a pull , or you could really overload and do two pushing style movements at the same , you know , like a chest press and a fly . That's intense . So that's one programming thing I really like to do .

Megan Dahlman 42:39

I love descending reps . I use that a lot . So instead of changing the load , we keep the load the same , but we do we knock off like a rep each set through . That's one of my favorites . Another thing to get that I love to program in a lot is just doing time set , so focusing a little bit more on just the stamina of a movement . You'll use an AMRAP , a little bit AMRAP , so we could do it two different ways . Either Amrap style , so as many reps as possible , like in a 30 second period of time .

Megan Dahlman 43:15

Another thing I like to do is as many rounds as possible in like five minutes . So we'll put five minutes on the clock . I'm going to give you five exercises . You've got five reps of each thing . How many rounds in five minutes can you do ? So all of what I love about all of these everything , everything is going to work . It's all going to work , it's all . It's all going to create good stimulus on your body . The more variety , the better , but you don't want so much variety that you can't focus and you're not able to see progress .

Megan Dahlman 43:45

So I take things in like in a mezzo cycle . So four week stints of time , usually four to six weeks , is a good mezzo cycle . So within that period of time , with a singular workout , with one workout like a workout , a like your Monday workout of the week , let's stick with one style for that workout . So this workout all cycle . We're going to do descending reps and or we'll do the AMRAP thing for this particular workout for the whole month and then next month we might switch it up , we might . So so you keep things , you keep variety , but not so much variety that it's random all the time and you can't see progress . And I think that's where like CrossFit lands in , where you show up and you have a totally different workout of the day .

Megan Dahlman 44:36

I'm always trying to PR or even orange theory . You show up , you have a different trainer , you're always doing these random classes . There's no way to have a clear forward progress . And when you have that forward movement , forward progress , you you can give yourself a light week . You know week one can be a light week and then you start building , building , and then you have your final week where that's like all of your effort , and then you have that deload week to follow that . So it's so much happier and safer on your body and it just keeps it fun so much .

Philip Pape 45:08

Yes , yes , you get bored , otherwise you get bored .

Heather 45:11

Not getting bored .

Megan Dahlman 45:11

This goes back to what we said in the beginning of like , the most important thing is just consistency . So if we can keep your workouts like really fun and like interesting and unusual , I have some clients that I work with where they're like just make it different a lot and I'm like well , I'll make it different every four weeks , but it'll be fun styles , so yeah .

Philip Pape 45:35

Yeah , yeah , I agree . Like I just ran an eight week block and now I'm running a new one where the fun comes within the week . Right , like within the session and within the week you can make it fun , mix it up . I don't want to . I don't want you to ever think the next day you look at your training plan and say , ah , that's the day that we got on . Like , you know , like I mean , we all have movements . We are not huge fans of it , might , maybe , but then it has like three other things we really love , you know , and you're like , okay , I can get through this . You also mentioned the macro level . We want the variety at the micro level . We want the what , the consistency , so you can progress , which is its own fun , challenging thing . Right , because then you go next Monday . You're like , okay , I just did this . My movement patterns are like learning . You know my body's learning this . Now I can probably push a little harder and really figure that out .

Philip Pape 46:20

The superset thing is cool because there's one or two things I've been doing lately . Megan , I wanted to jump spring off of that . One is adding a third set that is just an AMRAP , but only like 15 , 10 seconds after the second set ended . So you do your first set . Take your two , three and four minute rest . You do your second set . I'm sorry this is you could do this with supersets or not , but let's say you're doing a superset and you're doing bicep curls and tricep press downs .

Philip Pape 46:48

You do your bicep curls , then you do bicep , then you do bicep , then your tricep . After that second set of triceps , 10 seconds later you do another , but an AMRAP .

Heather 46:57

And it's like a way to test that you're actually pushing to failure .

Philip Pape 47:00

Yeah , with the same one . Just with the second one to check yourself of whether you're really training hard .

Megan Dahlman 47:08

I like that . I mean , I wouldn't do that all the time .

Philip Pape 47:12

Like .

Megan Dahlman 47:13

I would not put that on like this is how I always do this particular workout . I mean that's definitely gonna max you , but I think that's a unique way to really test and I think in my own workouts I do that sometimes without saying like calling it anything .

Philip Pape 47:29

Like .

Megan Dahlman 47:29

I'll know it's my final set . I'll be like I've got more in the tank , so I'll just like keep going until I feel like I've maxed out , because I know like I'm not doing this exercise again today . I feel like I've got some more . I really want to push it , and so it probably is like an AMRAP there at the end where you're just seeing how much of or just maxing out in one way or another . So , yeah , Another thing that I like to add onto the end of workouts for a metabolic boost or metabolic finishers .

Megan Dahlman 47:59

I don't know if you've ever used these , but this is great for like a conditioning effect on the end of like a strength training workout , just like five minutes max , usually body weight stuff . Sometimes it's fun to do like a strength circuit , but it's usually like a lighter load but high intensity boost , and it can be like a timed circuit , you know Tabata style thing , an AMRAP thing , like three minutes on the clock . How many of these can you do in three minutes ? And those are kind of I use the word fun in quotes but you walk away from that on the end of your workout and you're like , Holy moly , that just pushed me over the edge . And the metabolic finishers . Those are fun .

Philip Pape 48:46

Yeah .

Megan Dahlman 48:47

More advanced athletes that I work with .

Philip Pape 48:49

Yeah , it's just those . You got to kind of earn your your right to start doing those right , like I think of BFR in that category too , like blood flow restriction training in that same category .

Philip Pape 48:58

What about , I guess , tied back to the bone density thing , how beneficial are the multi-joint exercises versus isolation , specifically for bone density , like , what is the advantage you're getting ? Other than I could see load , because we can live more with your whole body and maybe that's the thing , but there's also central nervous system activity going on that's not happening with like a bicep curl . What are your thoughts on that ?

Megan Dahlman 49:23

I see the benefit of single joint movements for , like total strength .

Megan Dahlman 49:30

You know , if that's what you're aiming for is to just like build total , pure strength for this muscle group .

Megan Dahlman 49:38

For those that are more concerned about their bones , like if that's top of mind , we part of that conversation is also functionality and and how your body functions and moves , your mobility , and so multi-joint movements are always going to fit into that conversation best .

Megan Dahlman 49:55

So the majority of the people that I work with are everyday individuals that want to feel and move better in everyday life . They don't necessarily want absolute max strength , they want to be strong for daily life and also have really strong bones and muscles . So in that scenario then , the multi-joint movements are always going to make the most sense . So I primarily only program those in because they're just so functional , so effective and they apply to their daily life . Every so often we'll do like a single , you know , just like a chest press which is still multi-joint , by the way , a chest press but it feels like a singular focus that mentally , is really exciting to feel yourself be really strong with , with a movement that's stable . You're working kind of one movement pattern at once . You can always do the strongest thing with that and that feels really good to explore your absolute strength . But as far as overall functionality , the multi-joint stuff is going to be the best .

Philip Pape 51:00

Yeah , I would agree . I think it checks the box with almost any goal as the foundation . To be honest , that's the nice thing about our discussion here is , if you're listening , everything Megan talked about you should be doing for all the goals . I'll be honest , Like , even if you want to build muscle and physique , you're going to have to have that as your foundation . So it's great , because it doesn't mean you have to go do 10 sports and spend 80 hours in the gym , you know . So , speaking of the gym , what one ? One other question I did want to make sure to come away with is somebody's listening , especially women equipment and access and going to the gym and that whole environment . That could probably be its own topic . But , like , do you have some you know my top three tips for , like , actually going to the gym ? Like what , what should they be trying to do ?

Megan Dahlman 51:44

at the gym or like .

Philip Pape 51:45

If they are not , if they haven't started yet . Should they be like , would you recommend finding a local gym first , or a home gym , or talk reaching out to you ? You know , obviously they should reach out to you .

Megan Dahlman 51:55

Yeah , I mean everything I put together , I make so that you can do it in your bedroom if you need to . So , when it comes to training and getting into a routine , the lowest barrier to entry the better . So if trying to find a gym , the lowest barrier to entry the better . So if trying to find a gym , signing up for a membership , walking into an unfamiliar place , those are all huge barriers that might prevent you from just starting . We need to just get you started and get the ball rolling . So most of the time I say just start at home , in your living room , in your bedroom . I have people that work out in their laundry room sometimes because it's the only place that they don't get bugged by their family . No one wants to come to the laundry room . So just start where you are , even your location , and don't feel like it needs to be this huge production .

Megan Dahlman 52:46

Some people really do enjoy and are motivated by the environment of going to a gym and for certain seasons of life that can be really great . You got a gym , you walk in , you're not going to do anything else there , you're not going to get distracted , you're going to get in , get your workout done and move on with your day , whereas at home sometimes you can put it off because you've got this task and this task . So in those situations , if you lack focus and you keep losing time to get it done at home , then carving out time and having a gym set up or a gym to go to can help with your focus . But for most people I feel like just getting to the gym is a huge barrier . So you can do full , highly effective workouts everything we talked about at home without any equipment to start with . So just get started .

Philip Pape 53:37

And it saves time , and you mentioned carving out time , so that would be . The last barrier I can think of is , even at home , I've got a packed schedule , I'm a mom , I'm overwhelmed , whatever , and I get this question all the time too . But I'm always curious what , like , your top tip is for that .

Megan Dahlman 53:52

You know psychological barriers like they're in our mind , and carving out time usually means like . It means that the workout that you're wanting to do you're maybe either dreading or it's unfamiliar and you have this impression that it's going to take you a really long time to learn it and you don't want to learn it . Think of that dreaded feeling of learning a new board game .

Philip Pape 54:23

You have to read the instructions .

Megan Dahlman 54:27

It's really fun , it's really good , it won't take that long to learn . You're like I just want to do the other game that I already know how to do . I don't want to waste my time learning this . The same thing happens with our workouts . So usually , if a workout just has a few movements that are familiar to you , you don't feel nervous about them . You're not afraid that you're going to mess up or hurt yourself . You don't feel nervous about them . You're not afraid that you're going to mess up or hurt yourself . Suddenly , you have more time in your schedule to do a workout like that because you're the excuses that you thought were the excuses weren't actually the real excuses . So usually the solution is to simplify the routine that you're trying to commit to . If you continue to not have time to do the workout , your routine's probably too complicated . It's probably overwhelming . You and you're right , you don't have time to do such an overwhelming routine . So just simplify it . Make it just two exercises to start with and build from there .

Philip Pape 55:25

And so let's segue into our last piece here , our last piece here . With that , you've got a lot of great content . We have a YouTube channel we're going to link in the show notes . Is this something where you would recommend a specific video ? We can throw it in where you're going to learn your squat at home tonight After you listen to this podcast . You could do it in your living room , throw it on the TV . It'll take you 10 , 15 minutes and that's it . That's how you get started . What do you think ?

Megan Dahlman 55:50

Totally All of the videos that I post on YouTube are 15 minutes or less there we go .

Megan Dahlman 55:54

I've got some great follow along workouts that are , you know , either mobility focused If you feel like I could just use a stretch or strength training , body weight focused .

Megan Dahlman 56:06

I try to post on my YouTube channel something that you can do in your living room if you don't have any equipment , and so it's a really great , fantastic place to start . And then if someone , if someone's really wanting to start a follow along routine that progresses and isn't just these like haphazard workouts here and there , but actually is a progressive program and routine , my jumpstart 30 program is a really excellent place for it to start . The first day is like eight minutes long , doesn't require any equipment and we focus so much on that technique . And by month three so if they keep moving through the courses in my series , by the third course we're starting to lift weights . So for anybody listening , that's like I know I need to lift weights . I don't know anybody listening that's like I know I need to lift weights . I don't know if I should start there , but I know I need to get there . My jumpstart series of programs is what's going to get you there lifting weights safely .

Philip Pape 57:00

And is there like a teaser video or a taste of it from there that we can throw in the show notes for folks ?

Megan Dahlman 57:05

Yes , Just go to VigeoFitcom , slash jumpstart . And that's the info about Jumpstart 30 .

Philip Pape 57:12

Yeah , All right , that's what we'll do . Everybody , please check that out . Megan is awesome . There's a reason I have had her on the show multiple times and she's a font of not only the science information but the practical information and everything she's saying . I agree with it , so it's got to be right . So , yeah , go go check her out . We'll , we can throw your socials in there , but I'd rather them just hit you up at the jumpstart and check that out as step one . So anything else you want to say , Megan , before we sign off .

Megan Dahlman 57:41

Yeah , just come say hi everybody . I'd love to meet you and Philip , thanks again for having me on the show . I love you . This is great .

Philip Pape 57:48

Always a pleasure , so much fun talking to you . The time flies by , so thanks again , megan , for coming on . Wits and Weights Thank you .