Rethinking Weight Loss Success

Philip Pape 0:01

If you've ever lost weight only to watch the scale creep back up months later , you're not alone . But what if I told you that regaining weight is connected to a fundamentally flawed way that we measure success with our health ? Today , my guest reveals why anyone can lose weight , but keeping it off and achieving lasting health requires an entirely different set of skills . You'll learn why the scale is the worst possible measure of transformation , the hidden skills that separate temporary weight loss from permanent change , and why most people become smaller , weaker versions of themselves instead of the strong , capable person they could become . Stop chasing the wrong metrics and start building the competencies that actually matter . Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency . I'm your host , philip Pape , and today we're going to challenge everything you think you know about success when it comes to weight loss and body transformation .

Philip Pape 1:07

My guest today is Dr Mickey Willedon , a registered nutritionist with nearly 20 years in private practice , a PhD focused on health and productivity . She is the host of the Mickepedia podcast . Go follow that right now . I would highly recommend that , as in your feed . She's talked to a lot of the folks we love on this show Dr Eric Halm , spencer Nadalski , brandon Cruz and so on . So Wikipedia , check it out and she's worked with world-class athletes , public figures in New Zealand .

Philip Pape 1:35

She is focused on body composition and health , and I think what sets Mickey apart is her redefinition of what success actually means in nutrition and fat loss or weight loss . And , spoiler alert , it is not about losing weight . It is a sustainable philosophy of behavior change that we embrace on this show , yet is still considered radical and unconventional in the fitness industry , in my opinion , and we're going to change that . So today you're going to learn why weight loss and lasting transformation are completely different skill sets , the specific competencies that separate people who maintain their results from those who regain , and why strength training is not optional if you want what we think that you want . Most importantly , you're going to understand how to measure progress in the ways that predict long-term success . So with that , mickey , welcome to the show .

Mikki Williden 2:24

Philip , thank you so much for having me . I'm not sure about you , but it's always interesting hearing your bio sort of fed back to you and I can't help but think gosh , I'm really getting old actually .

Philip Pape 2:37

I've been around a while , right , you know it's wisdom , though that's what I've come to embrace is the wisdom of hard knocks , of experience . I know , I know .

Mikki Williden 2:48

I in fact was speaking to a friend of mine who I think would be excellent for your show , actually Dr Dan Plews , and he's an exercise physiologist and he's won the age group race at Kona plus in the high rocks sort of world championship , and he's like I've got to start thinking about people over 40 , but then I have to admit that I'm over 40 myself and I'm like , well , dan , I'm closer to 50 .

Philip Pape 3:15

So maybe you should just like get on that because , yeah , living in denial is obviously not a great thing . Yeah , and you know it's funny , all of us that are over 40 , I think it's going to be the new 20 , or 60 is going to be the new 40 . That's our goal . Right Is to turn back the clock for folks .

Mikki Williden 3:26

Yeah , a hundred percent , and I also think , philip , this is such a tangent , but I feel like we're so lucky now it's a doubly sword , right , but we are so lucky with the information we have available if we want to live our best lives in the way that we can . Compared to , say , our parents' generation where of course things are a whole lot different but knowledge around the importance of activity and diet and sleep and smoking , even for part of our parents' generation it was considered nowhere near as detrimental to health as clearly we know it is to be now . So I do feel like 60 is going to be the new 40 , that kind of thing .

Philip Pape 4:06

Yeah , and so , speaking of that , we're trying to open people's minds to some of these shifts . And it's funny you mentioned cigarettes , because I just did an episode about 1920s dieting and how cigarettes were marketed as better than candy because they make you slim . It's so crazy , it's insane , but uh . But there are things that persist and one of those big ones is that we need to lose weight and that losing weight is the be all , end all . And you know you and I on our , on these podcasts , are trying to shift that . But you've even said that losing weight is just the least interesting part of the process . Anyway , it's the least interesting part of transformation , which begs the question what is the most interesting part ?

Mikki Williden 4:49

Let's get into that .

Mikki Williden 4:51

Yeah , do you know , philip ?

Mikki Williden 4:51

I really feel quite passionately about this because in my programs I see literally hundreds of women , mostly women men as well and we can regardless , and they come in and of course , it's a fat loss program , so their ultimate goal in their mind is to shift their have that physical transformation . But the habits and behaviors that allow you to shift weight are so much more transformational than just that physical like I feel like a lot of people come into a diet plan with like they are a graveyard for failed diets , like they're like we have been pulling things out of our diets forever , for decades . That's actually the easiest thing for us to do , and it's the habits and behaviors that allow us to lose weight that are the transformational part of it , because as you execute these day on day , you are showing yourself that you can do it and you're building this confidence and that's absolutely transferable to other parts of your life , because there's a real confidence issue , I think , and that's like just like a small piece of the puzzle , but that's a huge one , I see .

Philip Pape 5:54

Yeah , and part of what you're hinting at is that there are lots of things we can potentially measure along the way . And do we even care about weight loss as a measure of success ? Because I want to bring that up , because I talk about this too , how , like , it's important to know your body mass because it's an input to other things ,

What Separates Maintainers from Regainers

Philip Pape 6:10

but it's not the be all end , all measure that you're trying to necessarily push or change , but it could be in some cases , so , like , what's the real story for listeners ? Should we care about weight loss as some measure of success ?

Mikki Williden 6:25

So this will sound counter to what I just said , but yes , I think so . So a couple . Let me caveat this . So , from a big picture perspective , if we think about population health , philip because I think about this as well is that over 70% of the Western world would be categorized as carrying excess body fat . That places them at poor health outcomes and higher risk , and that is actually important .

Mikki Williden 6:45

So I do think that getting down to a body weight that is so you're carrying less of that excess body fat , is actually an important metric , and so I think , from that health perspective , I do think for a lot of people it is important , and I also want to acknowledge that it's okay to wanna look better .

Mikki Williden 7:02

It's okay to wanna fit into your jeans . It's okay to to want to look better . You know , it's okay to want to fit into your jeans . It's okay that , that you want to feel really pleased and confident and proud of the person staring back at you . However , I think a lot of that , what you feel when you see the weight loss , is actually the pride of executing the behaviors that we were just talking about . So so I do think it's important , but I do I think it's almost not enough as a goal to help change behavior long-term , because when the rubber hits the road and stuff gets hard , fitting into your pair of jeans is actually not enough of a driver that stops you from derailing your own success when actually things get hard and that's going to hit on the crux of it .

Philip Pape 7:44

You mentioned long-term and the sustainability of it and the having a deeper meaning or motivation , and so then maybe the thought experiment is here okay , you have someone who loses 30 pounds and then regains it which we know is as many as 95% of people , right , is a common number we've thrown around versus someone who loses 30 pounds and keeps it off for decades . Again , just thinking about weight loss and how it is a marker for health and it is correlated with body fat , and we're not even getting into the next level of optimizing body composition . We're just talking about basic obesity versus healthy weight . What is the difference between those two avatars ?

Mikki Williden 8:22

Someone who yo-yo diets with losing the weight just to regain it . I mean they do place themselves at risk of the cardiovascular disease , type 2 diabetes , these chronic diseases that people who carry excess body weight are at risk of anyway . But , more importantly , when they lose that 30 pounds and they regain it , they might lose muscle mass whilst they're losing that body weight . But when they're regaining that body weight , predominantly they're regaining body fat . So they actually end up overshooting on their body fat , maybe even having more body fat than when they started .

Mikki Williden 8:58

Because across the course of that weight loss and people who are generally more likely to regain the body weight probably didn't have in practice some of these , you know , best practice ways to lose the weight in the first place , that helps protect muscle . So they're at a much higher risk of these diseases . And , importantly as well , like I mean , muscle is a reservoir for glucose , you know , like it is the thing that helps protect our basal metabolic rate and our ability to exist on a higher calorie level , and so it just makes it harder in the longterm . And you compare that to someone who loses weight and is able to keep it off , but they're much more likely to have sort of done it in a way that allows them to protect their muscle mass , allows them to protect their metabolic rate , allows them to still live their life while they do it . And I think that's really important , because you've got to learn how to lose weight in the real world , because life is always going on around you .

Philip Pape 9:58

So there are three massive takeaways . You just said that . I couldn't sum it up better myself for the listener . One is the concept of body fat overshooting is important . I think I first heard about it with Lane Norton's Fat Loss Forever back in the day .

Philip Pape 10:10

Classic and some of the science has changed .

Philip Pape 10:14

We may not , for example , create all these new fat cells like we used to think , and little things like that that weren't changing , but the idea that we see this with Ozempic now you could have massive muscle loss because you're not doing anything to protect it and you're losing at a very fast rate , and then what you regain as fat makes it harder and harder , and muscle being the foundation because of its carb sucking , its glucose sucking capabilities as a sink for glucose and increasing your metabolism , and there's a million other things , mickey , which both you and I talk about .

Philip Pape 10:43

And then the fact that it's sustainable . So a lot of people don't think the fact that when they're on a diet , they can do it in a way that doesn't feel like misery and they can do it at a rate of loss that makes it feel like , okay , I'm pushing but I can do this , and it doesn't feel like I'm cutting everything out , like you said before . So I just wanted to reiterate for the listener how important those three takeaways are , with success and sustainability versus not . So what that leads us to now is what are those skills that separate temporary weight loss from permanent change ? And maybe you want to start with one that people struggle with the most , and we can go from there .

Mikki Williden 11:18

Yeah , okay , so this might be a bit . It's not a skill necessarily , but it's a bit of a mindset thing . I actually think , philip , is that sometimes we are sold in the diet industry that it should be easy or it's easy to lose weight and it's simple . It's not actually work and the reality is if you give someone a diet plan and an exercise plan and they follow it , they will absolutely lose weight . Diet plan and an exercise plan and they follow it , they will absolutely lose weight .

Mikki Williden 11:47

I think people need to think about dieting or improving their body composition , so like it is a set of skills . The same way it would be if I was to take up guitar playing right now . You know , having never , ever , like , of course , I've touched a guitar , but you know , like have never , have never actually learned how to do it , and so part of learning how to play an instrument or a sport is learning the fundamentals , putting in into practice and then putting in the hours of training day after day . Like dieting is a like and eating is a skill , and I feel like people feel like they should know how to do it just because they eat and you just can't . You actually underestimate the work that's involved .

Mikki Williden 12:29

So actually it is hard work to change your diet in a way that is sustainable and keep that weight off . So I think , accepting that it's hard work , accepting that there'll be periods of time where it feels relatively easy , but there are periods of time where it feels a whole lot harder , accepting that there will be pockets of time where it feels relatively easy , but there are periods of time where it feels a whole lot harder , accepting that there will be pockets of time where you absolutely go off the reservation and eat whatever . But coming back to the tools that you've already got and trying to get back and be consistent , I think that's really important because , out of everything , if you can't be consistent in the long term , then nothing's going to stick . But part of that consistency is accepting that it is work and the work is worth it . I think that's it .

Philip Pape 13:15

The work is worth it . Somebody I think is it Andrew at Barbellogic calls it voluntary hardship . Right , and in the starting strength world where I learned how to lift , there's a lot of messaging like that about . You know like your squats are always going to be hard and if you don't like them , they're going to be hard for the rest of your life . But you need to do them and they're going to push you and you're going to . You're going to like them more and more because of the result , not necessarily because of the thing itself , but this reminds you . So you talk about consistency and skill and hard work and and you know that phrase work smarter , not harder . I never liked that because I always thought I want to work smarter and harder , like I want to be efficient while I'm working hard , not just not work hard .

Philip Pape 13:53

So when you think of eating as a skill and people are like , how is that ? Like playing a guitar , cause I'm born out of the womb knowing how to drink breast milk and eat and , yeah , foods around me , course , eating is just eating . Yeah , tell us about that .

Mikki Williden 14:06

Yeah , okay , so I guess it's you know , your .

Essential Skills for Lasting Transformation

Mikki Williden 14:10

It comes down to a lot of the habits you put around , how you eat and what you eat . The reality is is that food is everywhere to your point , and we are certainly not in scarcity when it comes to food . But having good choices available , that's where the work is involved . So actually putting prioritizing and it is prioritizing meal prep , and I mean you'll know this meal prep and meal planning initially , so when you are running short on time you can just go to the fridge and pull out the chicken that you air fried earlier in the week and the salad that you made and you know you've got good choices available .

Mikki Williden 14:47

Like those are the skills that people have to learn , and actually it's the prioritization and recognizing it's important because a lot of people think that they can just wing it , but our environment is not set up to wing it . It doesn't matter how much you know , like you , that knowledge isn't going to magically make that chicken appear in your fridge if you haven't actually prepped it . So so I think a lot of the diet changes that people you know would would do well to make actually come from the meal prepping and the planning part of it . To begin with , yeah .

Philip Pape 15:16

So meal prep and planning , I mean , what that strikes me is that it's something you hadn't been doing and now it's this step , change of behavior you have to put in place right . Kind of like when you're learning the guitar , you're going to have to spend every day practicing your scales . You know , when you injure yourself and go to physical therapy . A lot of people don't do the physical therapy at home right , and they just regress . It's like you have to . There's the hard work you mentioned before . There's the consistency that doesn't exist yet , and there's the skill , even knowing what to do . So , when it comes to like meal prep , meal planning , consistency , all of that wrapped in a bow , what is your philosophy for getting people to change their behavior in general ?

Mikki Williden 16:02

Yeah , I think it's well , my philosophy is around that mindset shift , actually Like so it's , you know , like the I I mean the behaviors that I feel people need to make are the ones that I'm sure you talk about all the time , philip , and you've talked with plenty your guests about it's that having that like basing your meals around that protein load , having those abundance of vegetables , people who tolerate vegetables , so you've got good fiber , so you've got that food volume , switching up the flavors a bit so your taste buds don't get bored , so there's a little bit of variety , but also recognizing that it's just food . You don't have to get all of your joy from your meals . There are other things in life that also provide joy . Having the texture on your plate is also important , important for your taste buds . So there there are a lot of sort of food factors that allow you to be consistent with your meals in a way that keeps you satisfied and sort of engaged .

Mikki Williden 16:52

But also it's that the mindset that if you do , you know you're not going to ruin everything with just you know if you miss just one meal or you know someone offers you cake and you have a slice of cake , like , and I think the catastrophe sort of mindset and that all or nothing mindset really plays a big role as well .

Mikki Williden 17:11

And so people understanding that these things , you know , if you treat them for what they are , they're literally no big deal . Like you might be on an eight week plan , but let's face it , you've got decades of your life left . You know , like any eight week plan , like the ones that I do , they're not , it's not a one and done , it's like this is a kickstart for how your forever diet could look , and we just need you to practice these skills in the container of this group . So you've got the support when things and when I say support like no one's in there making the meals for them , but it's the emotional support when they , you know they when things don't go to plan . That's the other support that people need . So getting them to sort of , I guess , execute the behaviors but also try and change their mindset around that sort of all or nothing approach that they've previously had to diets , because that's actually the big thing , I think .

Philip Pape 18:01

Yeah , again , you hit on a really good concept . You talked about when people fail and I'm just going to use the word they fail to do something right , they fail to hit a target or eat what they plan to eat or what have you . And then you mentioned support and emotional support to practice and learn those skills . I think all of that together is really important . It can apply to any context , right ? I think of , for example , public speaking skills . I've been in Toastmasters for years and it helped me become a better speaker because I'm among a group of supportive people who are like-minded , who are pushing me but also they're holding me as I fail every day and they give me feedback on that failure so I can improve . So if somebody is listening and like , okay , how do I even start building these skills ? To begin with , like , what's the first thing ? And they may not have a community , they may not have a program , maybe they can't afford it , whatever , but how can they start ?

Mikki Williden 18:53

yeah , such a great question , philip and I , you know I've thought about this a lot , like they're . Like , I think , to my point earlier about the accessibility of information . I think we're so lucky in and everyone will have a different way with which how to learn essentially , learn about learn a shift in mindset . So things that I have found helpful and my clients have found helpful over the years . One is that sort of daily engagement and material that helps you shift your mindset , and this will sound a bit I don't know how this will sound actually but I love a lot of podcasts , like probably a lot of podcasters do , and people listening to this podcast do as well . And I love listening to big thinkers and people who think differently to me , and it might be on topics of nutrition and health , which I'm super passionate about , but also it's on things like business and it's things on sport and listening to other entrepreneurs and like AI and tech , like people who are successful just think differently .

Mikki Williden 19:49

And what I've recognized over the years and then it probably started with Tim Ferriss podcast actually is that in listening to these podcasts just helped me frame things a little bit differently in my mind and helped me interpret the information in front of me differently to how my internal narrative or framework might have it , because now I've suddenly got a different perspective with which I can draw on , like , and that is like one of the simplest things to do and that's not the thing that's going to change it , but it absolutely helps me , this daily engagement .

Mikki Williden 20:19

And so you know people often beg social media , but I tell you what I love social media for the build alpha accounts , for the James Clear accounts , for things like that that just you know you get a tile and , depending on your mood , something's really going to hit , it's really going to resonate with you and you just like get this . Yeah , actually it's a different way to think about it . So I think because we know that you can't just sort of tell yourself to think differently you actually have to engage and do something different to enable to rewrite that narrative . But so that's my first thing that I would say and I'm not sure how- you .

Philip Pape 20:51

Oh no , I love that . First , I listen to a lot of podcasts as well , but I love how you said like listening to things outside the scope can help you think differently . It's not just different perspectives within fitness , it's like entrepreneur I mean really good business podcasts that are trying to push entrepreneurs to really excel , that that spirit of excellence applies to anything you do Right , and that's amazing . And then even individuals like and there's there's people Dr Mike Isertel . I think he's hilarious . Some people don't like him . You know his humor , right , yeah , but he's a very much like different thinker . He's just a very different thinker .

Philip Pape 21:25

And then you and I were joking about like going on podcasts and how we're all like colleagues and half the questions that I ask you today comes from the framing and the perspective of all the other guests that came before , helping me think differently about it and then asking you something that pulls it out for the listener . So for the listener to have that shift on today's conversation , one of the things that you are big into is building that identity around being a health-oriented , a strong person rather than a dieter . That's one perspective I think is different for the listener is not trying to be smaller , a smaller , squisher version of themselves . I think is what you said , but trying to be health-oriented and I guess how do people make that shift ?

Mikki Williden 22:08

Yeah , and and I feel it's like you're right , like it's , it's building a better body composition , and this is one of the things I talk about as well , like when you're building something , you've got to actually add things in , you can't just strip away . And I think thinking about it a little bit like that , thinking about yourself , like you're the athlete you are , we are human , we are athletes , like literally like this is what a whole human race , we should be athletes . So what is that athlete mindset ? And it is more than just thinking and listening like people will hate this , but I think writing stuff down .

Mikki Williden 22:40

I think reflecting on your day to day or your week to week in terms of what goes well for you with regards to like even just your meal prep and your , you know , did you achieve what you wanted to achieve today ? If not , why not ? Like what could you do differently to make things be better the next day ? So it's having an athlete mindset , but also that reflection piece , I think is a really big part of it . And mindset , but also that reflection piece , I think is a really big part of it . And because your goal can't just be to fit

Changing Your Mindset About Dieting

Mikki Williden 23:10

into your genes or to be a smaller version of yourself . It has to be bigger than that . And the work around mindset you actually do have to put work into it , and actually that's the work that people don't want to do . Yeah .

Philip Pape 23:22

No , that's very true . So two more things came to mind . I'm always trying to relate to what you said here . One is years ago , as a young engineer , I did a career counseling session where we did a self-awareness exercise , and it was the first time I ever heard about emotional intelligence and I realized in the subsequent years how powerful it was to sit and think and write and just be open and raw about yourself . And some people don't like to do that , I'll admit . Some people don't like to journal , so it doesn't have to be journaling , right , like I think , okay , what if there's a prompt on social media and somebody asks you a question , you answer it . That's a way to document your thoughts , right , to engage with other people , to engage with folks . So , yeah , anyway , I'm just trying to connect to the idea that a lot of people are go , go , go right , and they're not thinking .

Mikki Williden 24:09

So , philip , what do you think about voice notes ? And I've been thinking a bit about this actually , because we know that when you put pen to paper it actually changes the activity in the brain . That almost cements something a little bit more for the person when they're writing something down which is often lost in our world of you know , keyboards and computers . But I do think the act of actually saying something out loud can be pretty powerful for someone as well . So , you know , journaling isn't about then having to go back and read what you write like no one loves doing that . But maybe in the same , with the voice notes , maybe even just voice noting when you're out on a walk , having a couple of key phrases or mantras , or even just saying out loud what went well today or what could have done better today , I think that could also work for some people . But I'd love to hear what you think actually .

Philip Pape 25:01

Yeah , I guess the question is are you listening to them ever , or are you just putting them out into the ether when you record the notes ?

Mikki Williden 25:07

Um , so , so I think actually just saying it out loud , you get a shift in your physiology .

Philip Pape 25:13

I'm not sure . Okay , yeah , because where my mind went was , first of all , I do that all the time without a device . It's called talking to myself while I go for a walk , right ? Out loud , like out loud or in the shower or in the car I mean everywhere but also I think of how I have some really close friends and colleagues who I will do voice memos with on our WhatsApp or Instagram or whatever , and that actually also serves that purpose .

Philip Pape 25:38

It's funny , you mentioned that , but as far as yeah , why not ? I think there's something to be said about multi-sensory aspects of thinking and getting your thoughts out , and , as a podcaster , we love to talk right yeah , that's so true .

Mikki Williden 25:50

So you know , like people who like , so this is work . But doesn't you know , though you're like reading your in your . I guess the work is setting aside maybe 5 to 15 minutes a day and activities that sort of engages your brain and gets you thinking differently or thinking bigger , like . I think that's a really important piece of the dieting exercise thing which I think no one really thinks as much about or as much as they should really about .

Philip Pape 26:19

No , it's true , and I'm sure you've seen , or you can tell me if you have , in your practice , because I see it as well . I have a group community now . Now it's pretty big , and so you see a lot of activity and a lot of talking going on . But the most value that I see is when someone is reflecting , when they're asked hey , what were your wins this week ? Or what are you struggling with ? Especially if it's a specific prompt , because some people struggle to come up with a thought and they're like , specifically with meal prep , what's going on ? Like , tell me about it . And that's when people write down their thoughts . You're like , okay , interesting , they wouldn't maybe never have done that consciously were it not for the prompt . So , yeah , I think it's huge .

Mikki Williden 26:57

Yeah , and because I also think one of the places that people struggle is actually identifying where they struggle . So you know , like again , social media is everywhere , it's already telling you that you're not eating enough protein , you're not eating enough vegetables , you're you know , it's telling you what your problems are , but actually unless you , you know , quite engaged in the process yourself and you've got this level of awareness , then maybe you're trying to solve a problem that isn't even really there for you . And I guess this is and this is the self-monitoring piece is a big part of both fat loss success and fat loss maintenance actually , and that's and you know what is something that else that people need to enable them to sort of maintain that weight is absolutely monitoring . We can absolutely go into what this sort of looks like , but part of it really is that awareness of either food tracking or journaling or something like that , even the food related stuff .

Philip Pape 27:51

You just gave me an idea . This is brilliant . Okay , you gave me an idea because I'm a huge data guy and always tracking metrics . I'm always creating new trackers for different things . But one thing I've never done and listen up folks , because Mickey's the expert here is just inventory all the skills you need and like how you're tracking against the skills , Like just your rating against the skills right Kind of a trend over time of meal prep , meal planning , time management you talk about all the time is a skill .

Philip Pape 28:17

So , what does that look like , mickey , if we said hey , here's your top 10 skills on a page . What would that look like ? Okay , so you've already mentioned a few of them .

Mikki Williden 28:28

This is great . So it is . It's meal planning , it's food prep , it's the exercise you know , like making time for exercise and a lot of these things people will do anyway . But then also maybe also putting checking off . At the end of the day , did you achieve what you wanted to achieve ? Writing down one thing that went well ? It's writing down your food , it's like of what you ate , it's and what about the ? These aren't skills , but it's a part of the monitoring thing . Like like the . What other monitoring ? Like did you hit your step count ? You know things like that . So what ? I think ?

Mikki Williden 29:06

Why I think this is really important , philip , and it's such a good point is that when things go wrong and people don't have a detailed sort of understanding of why they just think they've failed . It's them , it's a personality flaw , it's something innate in their character that means they can never be successful here . But when you can sort of step back and look logically well , I failed because I didn't actually do my food prep . Well , that's actually an obvious fix . It's not to do with them and their character and their ability , it's actually just that they didn't do the work that they needed to do . That's why I think it's such a good idea .

Philip Pape 29:39

Yeah , and what you're hinting on there again is like the cause and effect is not always clear unless you have the data points and the measurement points in that chain of cause and effect right . It's kind of like we talk about obesity and people argue about the root cause of obesity . Well , obviously it's not calories in , calories out . It's one of the 50 things that lead to calories in , calories out right and you have to find upstream which ones matter to you the most .

Mikki Williden 30:03

I was thinking , like you know , for a lot of people coming into this area wanting to lose weight , this has been like a lifelong struggle . And so they've had , they've got all of the data they feel they need to show them that they can't be successful here . So it's that real emotional root of the , that's the thing that really holds them back . So that's why any opportunity to step out of that emotional brain and when you can be logical and you can be sort of think practically , I think is really good , because then you're able to start to prove yourself wrong . And so it's not even that . It's that we're constantly fighting against our own self-limiting beliefs .

Mikki Williden 30:42

Again , I'm coming back to that , but it's just such an important part of it that actually cannot be solved in eight weeks , 12 weeks , 16 weeks . So this is something that people might be working on for years because , don't forget , we've got decades of these self-limiting beliefs , maybe even for some of us who were dieting with our mothers when we were younger . So people shouldn't underestimate the power of that and how it drives their behavior . I think so to your point . That checklist , that proof every day of that you're doing it , I think , can be really powerful .

Philip Pape 31:15

Yeah , and you just mentioned reframing again , too , which is powerful , and dieting with your mother , right ? And I thought of the word dieting , as you were saying that , and the phrase weight loss . There are some trigger words , right , that are interpreted a certain way , and maybe certain people shouldn't even use them , like I like to use fat loss instead of weight loss , and I will go out of my way to make weight loss a boogeyman just for that comparison . Understanding , like you said earlier , some people need to lose weight from a health perspective , but it's not really just the weight that's important , right ? So when we take the word dieting , for example , how do you personally , or even with your clients , use ? What do you call being in a calorie deficit when you're losing fat and losing weight ? Do you call it ever dieting ? Because I do occasionally , just randomly , but is that a problem ?

Mikki Williden 32:00

I don't think so . I saw a hilarious meme the other day by someone saying I showed myself that I was born in the 1900s , when I used this , that I was going on a diet and I wasn't in a calorie deficit , which did make me laugh , because it's so true . There are some things we are not able to say in our profession anymore . I'm not allowed to say that there are good and bad foods . Philip , let's be clear . There are good and bad foods . I know that's not . It doesn't mean you're a good or bad person because you eat these foods , but there are , legitimately , foods that are really great for you and there are foods that aren't . So dieting , I feel , has been framed as this four-letter word diet , whereas a diet is literally what you eat and yeah you know , like literally it is .

Mikki Williden 32:44

And so I feel like we place a lot of power and meaning in something like dieting , when literally is it's just what you eat and we don't have to shimmy around and I do say calorie deficit but actually it's a , you know , it's just , it's a fat loss diet . You know , like , is it anything wrong with calling it what it is ? So I just don't like to give a lot of power to these things , I guess .

Philip Pape 33:06

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , no , I agree . That's why I ask yeah , yeah , yeah for sure . And I heard you talk about the good and bad food thing . With who was it with ? Was that with Brandon DeCruz , or did Lyle McDonald come on ?

Mikki Williden 33:18

your show , no , no , no , I'd love to talk to him at least .

Philip Pape 33:26

He's got a huge personality . You were talking with someone about it and , um , all I was thinking is , oh , I've , I've done that , I've said how , like talking about the rigid versus flexible restraint literature does look at moralizing food and labeling food for some people can be an issue , but at the end of the day , like we make more of it than it should . And in the fitness industry I noticed there's a back and forth of like boogeyman . So as soon as somebody says there's good and bad foods , that's a boogeyman . Now you shouldn't say good and bad foods is boogeyman . And then it kind of goes back and forth , which is funny , but okay , so that's reframing . And then what else ? Okay , so I know what I was going to ask . Eating more food but fewer calories , right , we talk about food volume as another important thing , and I think that's a

Food Volume and Energy Density

Philip Pape 34:05

skill as well that's very underrated but also extremely critical . So what are your thoughts on that concept ? That confuses people , cause they're like eat more , lose weight . What are you talking about ?

Mikki Williden 34:14

Yeah , totally so , and so I talked to a lot of women , cause I'm a volume eater myself , Like I love a big amount of food , and I know that for me personally , I'm not going to feel satisfied unless I have a decent amount of food in front of me .

Mikki Williden 34:28

But people confuse a lot of food on the plate for a lot of calories , whereas you know I'm sure your listeners know as well is that when you fill your plate with that lean protein and with vegetables , you can end up having a very low calorie meal but having a large volume of food , and I think people equate fat loss with having to eat these like little , tiny portions of food that never satisfy their appetite , and so they're always hungry , and I think hunger is actually an important part of someone's you know , fat loss journey , and it's okay to be hungry and in fact it's not a bad , and it's okay to be hungry and in fact it's not a bad thing .

Mikki Williden 35:07

But to be constantly hungry and distracted by food and this is all you think about , like and your meals are tiny , like that's a problem and it's unnecessary as well . And people don't think about energy density of food , like the , the meals that that you and I would advocate people eat are low energy density , but they but they've got quite a few . Like you know , they're really nutritious , but they've just got a low amount of calories , whereas something like a sandwich might look like a smaller , like it's less energy dense because it's a tiny bit of food , but actually it could well be far more calorie dense or far more energy dense , but it's not going to hit the same satiety signals in your stomach . So that's something else which people need to get their head around , because you don't have to be miserable to your point earlier when you diet . You can eat a decent amount of food . You just make better choices that allow you to do it .

Philip Pape 36:00

And on that , food choice skill because there's another skill on the list is how to select food . Even if you're eating a lot of whole foods , energy density can even vary . Right , nuts are very energy dense , so you got to be mindful , and mindfulness is important . What are your thoughts on in this world where we have AI , using AI to help with that ? So , in other words , this is your food log , throw it in AI and say look , something's off here with my energy density . Help me out . Are you up for using those tools ?

Mikki Williden 36:28

I mean , I think they can be helpful , but I've got to say , philip , sometimes chat GPT does a terrible job , absolutely terrible job of like , give me four meals that have 40 grams of protein , and it's rubbish actually , but I think it's not a not a bad place .

Mikki Williden 36:44

Equally , though , even just logging your food yourself on my fitness pal which isn't a great app , but it's the one that everyone uses like that can give you some intel , and and I feel like sometimes people outsource too much of this information to other people they're like tell me what's high in protein , tell me what is low in calories , and it's like you should do that , work yourself , actually , like , put that . But this is where the learning comes in . And , yes , it does take time to track your food . It does take time to weigh your food . Doesn't take that much time to weigh your food , but you know whatever but , but this is how you really learn . But I do think ai can absolutely be helpful , for sure , but I often see what spits out , and I'm like man , I'm glad I know this area , because if I wouldn't , if I didn't , then I could really be going on a bad path here .

Philip Pape 37:31

It's so funny you mentioned that because the latest I've been joking with other coaches about how AI just validates . It tells you what you want to hear . I know I've tried . I've said , look , rewrite this in the style of so-and-so , and it'll say something . I'm like are you sure that's in that person's style ? And they're like oh wait , no , it should be this . And I'm like are you still sure ? And they're like no , no , no , it was right the first time .

Philip Pape 37:51

I'm sorry , you know , and it just just telling you what you want to hear and that reminds me of you know , when you said the meal planning being rubbish . It's like if you never in the first place understood energy density and what your options are . You don't know what to trust . I suppose once you have that baseline level of knowledge , then you know the information coming back you can validate . Okay , I forgot about that chad gbt for the idea of tuna in a can , like I have forgot about that or whatever . Yeah , totally so I also .

Mikki Williden 38:28

I also like that you .

Mikki Williden 38:30

You asked about the energy density as well , but because what I feel , uh , like the mediterranean diet gets a lot of air time and I love and I love the concept , albeit there is no such thing as one Mediterranean diet , and I'm sure you've talked to people a lot about that .

Mikki Williden 38:45

However , people can get it in their head that it doesn't matter how much olive oil they use on their salad and it , and it doesn't matter how much avocado and and almonds and and things like that . So that's , and I think actually like a lot of people think they they sort of quote unquote know how much they're eating . But honestly , if you struggle , if you do eat , if you're listening to this thinking I do a lot of what they're talking about I'm not seeing success . But if the one thing you're not doing is weighing your food , then that is that , that thing that you need to do , because it's actually like even the most skilled individuals get like a serving of peanut butter wrong , like that's the easiest thing in the world to get wrong and it's the most disappointing thing in the world to see . But when you understand how much like an actual serving size is , it really can change the game with regards to your success as well , right .

Philip Pape 39:35

Yeah , you're hitting on the dichotomy , or the difference between restricting what you eat and saying I can never have this versus the amount . And to me , the amount gives you way more flexibility than restricting the list . Right , and that's the premise . But you're right , carnivore , keto , all these diets do go off the premise that , hey , you're going to be full , you can eat whatever you want . That's going to control the calories and that may be true , but you're restricting a bunch of foods , so you've got to take into account that piece of it , right ? Yeah , yeah , so , and you mentioned you mentioned logging and tracking . So I'm also a big fan of that and I know there's people use tracking and counting calories and weighing food as like boogeyman and in reality it takes like seconds a day . Once you get used to it , you know like it doesn't take long , just real quick . Shout out Macrofactor . I know you had Eric Trexler on , oh , amazing , yes , you know that's the app I love to use , so I always tell people about it .

Philip Pape 40:24

I have a code witsandweights two weeks free . Anyway , it's a great app . I've used it since launch and the reason I like it , mickey , is because it estimates your expenditure from your food and your weight which other ?

Philip Pape 40:33

apps don't do right . So then you know okay , I'm burning this , I can get my targets , yeah , yeah , but anyway , another hot topic is rapid fat loss or rapid weight loss . Yes , and I know you've been critical of , like all these coaches that are focused on that because it's such a easy thing to market and you have like . Speaking of Lyle McDonald , he has a famous RFL protocol . I've had Bill Campbell on who has some protocols , and I did a challenge myself and talked about it and people come to me like I want to do the rapid fat loss thing . I'm like are you training ? Are you already tracking ? Are you eating your protein ? Is your mental health good ? Like all check , check , check , check , check . But people just want to lose weight , so that's what they think of it as .

Mikki Williden 41:12

So go Okay , that's great . So , first of all , I I actually and this might be counter to what you think I actually , and this might be counter to what you think I I love a rapid fat loss . Yeah , approach absolutely equally . I love lyle mcdonald's work and bill campbell's work and I'm 100 with them . So the things which the the diets that I rally against are the ones that focus solely on so , to your point , lyle's is rapid fat loss , whereas the accelerated weight loss that occurs through aggressive calorie restriction and no , and discouraging people from strength training , like that's the type of you mean and programs like that ?

Mikki Williden 41:54

yeah , yeah , okay , yep , this one , totally this . I came across one Philip called the human being diet . That's really big in the UK . Same thing like you eat nothing but vegetables for two days and then you eat vegetables plus a tiny amount of protein , no exercise allowed same . There's another one very similar here in new zealand as well .

Mikki Williden 42:11

Like and , and you literally see people just have this accelerated weight loss and they look no healthier , and then they're in that position that we talked about earlier of losing 30 pounds with losing like over 40% of their muscle , and so that's what I rally against . I do think , though , that there is a place for that aggressive calorie deficit drop when you protect muscle through protein Like I use a protein sparing , modified fast approach in my group program , and it's so successful , and you've got that strength training component , like I think there is absolutely a place for that , but there also has to be a place for that sort of diet break and that maintenance calories , or however you want to put it where you do actually eat more as well . So you have that aggressive calorie drop backed up by additional calories just to help offset the stress of the calorie deficit , and people can be super successful with that hello , I am berkeley and

Rapid Fat Loss: Skills and Approach

Mikki Williden 43:10

I wanted to give a huge thank you to philip of wits and weights .

Berkeley 43:14

He has helped me so much , gave me a completely free 30 minute call where he answered all of my questions , gave lots of great insight into programming and nutrition . All of his content is really wonderful and he has a great Facebook group that is supportive and informational . He has tons of free resources that I really really enjoy and they're all super science-based . What I really love about Philip is that he always updates his guides and he makes time to answer any questions , even though I am not currently a paying client . He really has helped me so much and I'm just so grateful .

Philip Pape 43:59

Yeah , no , I totally agree . Again , you're making the distinction between weight loss and fat loss and skills versus chaos . And just I mean again , we see , with the agonists right , the GLP-1s , the dual agonists as well . Now there's a new one coming , a triple agonist , where if you don't have that support like I know , you had Spencer Nadalski on and he's a big advocate of lifestyle with the drugs , lifestyle with the drugs like you got to do both . And I have a lot of clients as well who are on towards appetite or something and they maybe have a goal of eventually coming off , but you've got to get the lifestyle going . So the rapid fat loss is the reason I wanted to ask you about . It is because we're talking about skills and to me that's like the epitome of pretty dialed in skills . Yeah , would you agree ? Like , what are the top skills that come out in your mind to do that successfully and as opposed to somebody who's not ready for it ?

Mikki Williden 44:47

Yeah , so I think you've got to be so I think there has to be a lot of discipline actually with it . Discipline and because you've just got to put in the work but like you've got to mentally , you , I think you strength training is absolutely critical . So having that already dialed in , or being prepared to sort of begin , is super important . There's an element obviously there's a lot of cognitive restraint that has to occur during that . You know , like the , the skill of saying no . I think that's really important , because people will be offering you food or you'll be in situations where food will be available and you really have to stay focused on the task . I think you do have to be prepared .

Mikki Williden 45:29

All of those things that we talked about I think are necessary skills for someone doing a rapid fat loss approach . And then also and this is where I see people getting a little bit stuck though , Philip is that restoration piece , whatever that looks like . That's just as important as the fat loss aggressive fat loss phase itself , Because if you go too far down the rabbit hole , then you can get yourself in that metabolic hole where you are absolutely . You're in this aggressive calorie deficit place where hormones start to get disrupted and sleep and energy and hunger and cravings are all sort of ramped up . So it's that recognition of what's enough and how far is too far . So you actually almost have to be disciplined enough to eat more afterwards actually .

Philip Pape 46:17

Yes , that's a great point , all of what you said . And , by the way , I love eating more seafood when I'm doing something like this , because you're like scallops , because it's just pure protein . But you know strength training , you know we've alluded to it throughout here . Originally I was going to get into it as a separate topic but honestly we do that to death on the show and people are like Philip shut up about it . I know I got to lose weight and that's fine .

Philip Pape 46:38

But the cognitive restraint of saying no , see , this is where people need to understand like there's a duration aspect to it . There's a what Jen Trebek she was on my show from salad with a side of fries . She called the consistency versus intensity . You know , opposite , like curves where you're going to go all out , dialed in discipline , saying no , a little bit of restraint and a little bit of restriction . Let's be honest in terms of the calories , but for two weeks or three weeks or four or whatever . And that's really important because with skills and habits there is a you know , if it's all new to you and you've never done it before , you're going to fall on your face right Like you're just going to fall on your face .

Philip Pape 47:14

But if you've got the basic skills and now you're leveling it up just a bit to go aggressively for a short period , you can be highly successful and people come to me on these things saying , okay , I'm done with it . Can I continue my fat loss phase pretty aggressively ? I'm going to say no , what you just said you should restore and come back to maintenance for a while . How long do you think most people need before they then go on another fat loss phase ?

Mikki Williden 47:36

Yeah , do you know ? I don't think that I can answer that as a blanket rule actually .

Mikki Williden 47:41

It depends , yeah , it depends yeah it's not great research actually Like , if I look at the diet break literature and of course you've , you know , spoken to Bill Campbell , I'm sure , about his work in diet breaks and whatnot and it's like , as I understand it , you definitely need more than like two days and for some people like a week is great and for other people it's like they need a month . But I think actually dialing into that biofeedback will allow you that sort of better understanding of it . So if you're you know , one part is that just that diet fatigue , that mental fatigue from restriction . You know , if you can't adhere to that approach , then you've got to take a break and once you get that motivation back , then it's a good time to sort of hit the diet again .

Mikki Williden 48:28

But that little middle piece , what people don't understand , I think , philip , is that actually maintenance in of itself is still a dialed in approach to nutrition . It is , it is not free for all . This is where people fall down , because they are either on a diet or they are well off a diet and there's never that middle ground . And that I think is one of the biggest skills to maintaining your weight is how much food do I need that allows me to maintain , not my lowest weight , because your lowest weight is not your actual maintenance weight at the end of a diet , that's you in a very depleted state , but a kilo or two kilos above that . How much food do I need for that ? And that's where people , I think , go a bit wrong .

Philip Pape 49:11

There's so many side topics . I would love If I come on your show maybe dive into one of these . But non-linear dieting you alluded to it because the more and more I work

Maintenance Is Not a Free-For-All

Philip Pape 49:20

with folks , the more I realize , just straight up , staying calories every day is just one little slice of the pie of things that work for people right A lot of people and myself included . I found that weekend refeeds . After looking at Bill Campbell's , he did a research review of a study from like 2021 that actually showed a potential benefit for lean mass retention . Just a slight benefit . It's hard to know if you could believe it . You know or not , because supposedly as long as you're in the same deficit it should be the same . But we see idiosyncrasies in the research . But from a psychological standpoint , like you said , and a recovery man , having that weekend going back to maintenance , it like resets you every week .

Berkeley 49:56

You know it's a really nice approach yeah .

Philip Pape 49:59

Yeah , but for some people it makes them go off the rails .

Mikki Williden 50:02

I know and , and you know , one of the feedback I got from like a member of one of my plans where I instigate these diet breaks , is she . She was like I love your program , mickey , but I still felt like those diet breaks were a bit too restrictive . And I'm like Cherie , unfortunately maintenance eating actually is just a few extra hundred calories above what dieting is . So and I think this is , this is the the thing that people yeah to our earlier point they just don't sort of get . But I've also seen , and like I've seen like changes in hunger hormones from some of that work as well , like just that hunger hormones are better regulated when you have those sort of diet break weekends . And what I also think this does is it stops that catastrophic mindset . You know , like part of that maintenance diet phase , if you like , will be meals that you you might not track and you know , and that's okay as well , because what is important is that you're not going into that meal thinking it's the last supper . You're not , you know , eating everything until you feel so overstuffed .

Mikki Williden 51:05

So I often say to people eat whatever you like as long as you tolerate it . Like , don't , you know , eat gluten . If you don't love your body doesn't love it , etc . But eat to feel satisfied and full , but not stuffed , because you never feel good feeling stuffed . And oftentimes people equate sort of people call it like treat meals or cheat days . I don't love that . I call it a metabolic reset meal . So , and people just you know , if they eat whatever they feel like eating , but stop at that point where they still feel good , then they can feel much more confident about their behavior and like , ah , I guess that one meal didn't actually do me in , unlike last week where I had fish and chips something we have here in New Zealand and then I had ice cream and , oh well , I blew it all . So I had the last of those chocolates as well . You know , that's often the mentality .

Philip Pape 51:53

Yep , and then that slice of pizza , right out of the fridge .

Philip Pape 51:56

I got it . If I'm going to binge on anything today , it's going to be barbecue , anyway . So , okay , this is awesome . Yeah , there's so many things here and it really does come back to skills . I like that we took that approach in that frame , and I guess my final question then for you is what is a skill that you personally have had to master that maybe took some work and change your relationship with food , with all

Personal Lessons and Food Flexibility

Philip Pape 52:20

of this stuff you know , as part of your journey ?

Mikki Williden 52:22

Yeah , such a great question . Philip and I , as I say , I'm a volume eater and I very regularly overate , and it didn't even matter that I was overeating on vegetables . You know like I would overeat to the point where I would feel so stuffed . And a part of this , brandon and I know we're wrapping up . You know , when I was younger , my dad and I would we'd love to share like pasta and we would like get like a whole packet of pasta . I'm thinking about now I think it's 500 grams like of the spaghetti pasta and we would have it with a tomato based sauce no protein here , folks , but we would also have a big garlic bread as well and we would literally half this meal like I .

Mikki Williden 53:00

I was in a chub , I was I'm a twin and I was the chubby twin when we were growing up , you know , and so I just had .

Mikki Williden 53:07

I just struggled with overeating , like for a good like , from from my teens right through to probably my early 30s , and and I really had to practice slowing down what I was eating when I was eating , slowing down , chewing properly and then feeling comfortable with just a normal amount of food , even slightly bigger than normal amount of food , to the point that now , when I finish a meal , I cognitively think I'm very conscious of the fact that , yeah , I could eat more but I wouldn't feel good , and so I just have to .

Mikki Williden 53:43

I could eat more but I wouldn't feel good , and so I just have to actually actively remind myself of that . And again , it's a work , it's still a work on for me and I get it right probably 95% of the time , but I still will overeat on the other 5% and I feel terrible and I guess , lucky that you know if you overeat 5% of the time , you and I know that it's actually no big deal . But also I have a palette for foods which the things that I overeat on tend to be sort of those foods that you and I , like we , advocate people eat . You still don't feel great .

Philip Pape 54:16

But yeah , yeah , I know somebody who does that with apples . She just could eat like a dozen apples , you know like , and you think , okay , no , she just could eat a dozen apples . And you think , okay , they say nobody ever gets fat eating apples , but you can overeat . And also , like you said , the biofeedback and the hunger regulation and how you feel and digestively is an important factor . It reminds me for me that's alcohol , and I'm sure a lot of people where I almost never drink now because , like you , I drink so infrequently that when I do , it exacerbates how or it reminds me how stark the contrast is between how great I feel when I'm not drinking versus this like why did I just do that ?

Philip Pape 54:51

A little bit of pleasure in the moment . You know that hedonism that we all have . But again , if it's 5% of the time , don't beat yourself up over it . Like you said , it's okay , we're human , these things happen . And maybe don't beat yourself up over it . Like you said , it's it's . It's okay , we're human , these things happen . And maybe it continues to reinforce why you don't do it , 95% .

Mikki Williden 55:07

Yeah , can I fill up ? Do I have time to just say one other ?

Philip Pape 55:08

thing , please go for it .

Mikki Williden 55:10

So the the other . So , as you know to your you mentioned my bio like I've been doing this for 20 plus years now and I have a science degree , and so it's a nutrition and then you know that's what my postgraduate work is in . So I'm not a macro coach like I never did . I never did that weekend course or whatever that that people do , or do personal training or whatever . So I never used macros until about five years ago actually .

Mikki Williden 55:33

So I counsel people a lot on what a plate looks like rather than what's in , but for my so for my headspace , though , I would also catastrophize foods off plan . So I was very restrictive up and up into my 30s as well , and it wasn't until I started tracking that I realized that have sharing a serve of , you know , hot chips or french fries with my husband wasn't an 800 calorie blowout . It was actually like 150 calories . It was nothing . So actually it really it allowed me to be less restrictive and more flexible . So I think for some people and this was the lesson that I learned as well , which I'm so grateful for is that it allowed me to be way more relaxed about my food than I ever have been now in my late 40s , which is really nice .

Philip Pape 56:27

That's so good , right , because there's so many anecdotal but false narratives about the obsessiveness and the OCD and the restriction you get from tracking . Yet none of it is supported by the evidence , unless you already had that in you for other things . And I love what you just said because it made me think about the pork tenderloin that I like to have . The first time I tracked and realized it was quite lean and I never thought it was because it tastes fattier than that and you're like whoa , I could actually eat twice as much for what I thought . And that's kind of a cool concept I mean to explore for people , because then it also lets you play with swaps and say , okay , I can swap this for this . Listen to what Mickey said about food volume . This thing has more volume , but it's pretty much a similar food that tastes just as good . So , boom , that's a win in my book . It's good .

Mikki Williden 57:08

I totally agree . It just allows people that it allows them to move further away from those . That sort of narrative of I can't eat this and I can't do that Cause . Logically , when you count calories and put it in and it all like you know , when you're able to sort of see it for what it is , you're like I can have that . So you're just further proving to yourself , when you , when you do the exercise , that actually you can probably be way more flexible in your mindset , which is the ultimately the goal really when it comes to how you eat .

Philip Pape 57:35

That's it . Skills , flexibility , sustainability . Love it , Mickey . This has been a blast , so much fun . Listeners know they can find your podcast Micopedia . We're going to link that . Is there anywhere else you want to send them to learn more about you and your work ?

Mikki Williden 57:48

Yeah , amazing . Thank you so much , philip , for the chat . I love chatting to like-minded people . So , instagram I'm pretty active on the socials . I try and translate concepts into language that people understand and I'm a bit of a geek and I just share my life actually on there , which I love actually doing because I feel like it's nice to be sort of transparent . So that's at Mickey Willardin on Instagram .

Philip Pape 58:12

Awesome Instagram , yeah , and your content is really good and , yeah , it's just kind of natural and I want to learn from you in that regard , because social media is not something I ever really got into . I love the podcast , so it's good stuff , and a lot of today's discussion about skills is based on some of your recent reels . So folks go check out and follow Mickey on Instagram at Mickey Willeton and check those out . They're not just a fly by night like post sake . She actually has really good insights that you're going to be blowing your mind on a regular basis . So , mickey , mickey , thank you for coming on . Wits and Waits it's been a pleasure to have you .

Mikki Williden 58:43

Thanks so much , philip , really enjoyed it .