Understanding DOMS and Workout Effectiveness

Philip Pape 0:02

If you're someone who judges your workouts by how sore you are the next day , thinking that pain equals progress , and you've been chasing that muscle burn as proof . You've been getting stronger and building muscle , but you're confused because sometimes you feel like you had an amazing training session , yet wake up feeling perfectly fine . This episode is for you . You'll discover why soreness is actually a terrible indicator of workout quality , the science behind what DOMS really tells us about your training , and the metrics you should be tracking instead to know if you're actually making progress toward your Welcome to Wits and Weights , the show that helps you build a strong , healthy physique using evidence , engineering and efficiency . I'm your host , philip Pape , and today we're going to answer a question that came from one of our Wits and Weights Physique University members , one that I get asked constantly in both coaching calls and when I appear on other podcasts , and the exact question she shared was , quote is a workout effective if you're not sore the next day ? Conversely , can you sometimes feel DOMS without actually getting stronger ? I'm trying to measure progress by increasing weight and reps over time , but you know I'm always looking for more feedback or confirmation that I'm doing enough , without overdoing it . This perfectly captures the confusion around soreness and training effectiveness that I've seen ever since I got into this space , and we're going to break this down systematically . First , I'm going to explain what DOMS actually is and why it happens . Doms stands for Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness . Then we'll explore why soreness is a terrible indicator of workout quality . After that , we're gonna look at what soreness actually does tell you about your training both the good and the concerning signals and then , finally , I'll give you the specific metrics you should track instead to know if your workouts , if your training , is actually working . By the end of this episode , my hope is you'll never again judge a training session by how you feel the next morning .

Philip Pape 2:08

Before we get into the science , I do want to share a testimonial from one of our Physique University members that I think captures the spirit of today's topic Quote . When I asked a question about wanting to get back into a cut in the Facebook group but mentioned that my lifts plateaued , philip opened my eyes . I'm realizing that those diet breaks , carefully tracked , would have been a good move . All these tips are with the mindset of looking far down the road and getting into habits little by little , to where you hardly feel the effort . I signed up for Physique University right away , as I don't want to lose my progress , end quote . Now notice this is a little bit about plateauing and tracking , but notice the big picture here . The member shifted from worrying about immediate feedback , which soreness would fall into that category , to focusing on the long term process and tracking progress and the systematic approach , and that's basically what we're talking about today .

Philip Pape 2:57

All right , what is DOMS ? Let's start with the foundation understanding what soreness actually represents at the physiological level , because even that alone can be difficult to wrap your head around unless you understand , okay , what even causes soreness to begin with , before we decide , should we be chasing it ? So let's talk about DOMS , delayed onset muscle soreness . It kicks in about 12 to 24 hours after exercise so hence the word delayed onset and it peaks around 24 to 72 hours later , so about a half a day to three days later . And you might have noticed certain muscle groups will take longer to feel sore than others , right , like the bigger muscles , like your legs . Now , this is not from lactate acid buildup , despite what you might've heard . Doms comes from microtrauma to muscle fibers , as well as localized inflammation and fluid shifts going on in the tissue . So this is your body's response to the mechanical stress , especially from movements that emphasize the eccentric phase , that is , the lowering portion of a lift . For example , romanian deadlifts , if done right , can actually produce some notorious soreness because of the controlled lowering motion . It is in a sense an isolation movement , even though it's a compound lift . If done right , you really can tear those hamstrings in the eccentric . And again we're going to talk about why that's not always a bad thing . Right , we want to do Romanian deadlifts Same thing with , say , walking lunges or negatives . If you're trying to get better at your chin-ups or pull-ups or bodyweight squats , for example , the muscle lengthens under tension and that creates more microscopic damage than the concentric contractions by themselves . And you're thinking , okay , well , don't you always have an eccentric ? You do , so stick with me Now .

Philip Pape 4:44

Soreness itself is an adaptation signal , usually to novel , that's , new or unaccustomed stress . The key word here is novel . Your body is telling you it experienced something different , not necessarily that it's quote unquote optimal for muscle growth or that it's doing anything more than something that doesn't make you sore . So I want to talk about why this distinction between different and optimal is the critical piece . So we're going to get to the heart of our member's question Can you get sore without getting stronger ? Absolutely , and can effective workouts leave you without soreness ? Also , absolutely so they're independent variables , is my point .

Philip Pape 5:27

One doesn't follow from the other per se . So , for example , you can get incredibly sore from activities that really don't do anything for your strength , muscle , physique goals . You know , I've seen people report soreness after moving from one house to another , doing yard work , taking a long hike , especially if you don't do it often or if you're going uphill and you normally go on flat land . And none of these activities were designed specifically to train and progress over time to build muscle , but they create plenty of DOMS . On the flip side , you can make huge strength and muscle gains with minimal soreness once you're adapted to your training routine , and this is one of the biggest surprises I face all the time . In fact , it creates concern in some people's minds . It's like , oh , I'm not getting sore . What is going on ? Is this actually working ?

Philip Pape 6:16

And I work with , you know , newbies , late beginner , early intermediate , late intermediate , advanced lifters , all at different levels , who , they'll rarely get sore because their bodies have adapted to the stimulus really quickly , like within a few sessions , is often the case , and we see this even in a single training block , like if I switch from one six week block into a new block with new lifts .

What DOMS Actually Tells You

Philip Pape 6:41

I may get a little bit sore after those first couple sessions , or even each of those sessions the first week because it's all new movements I haven't done in a while . And then by the next week it's all good and I don't feel sore anymore , right , and yet you're still increasing and adding weight to the bar , adding reps to your lifts . So let's step back and talk about first principles again .

Philip Pape 7:02

Muscle hypertrophy the growth in muscle size , is driven by mechanical tension , progressive overload and sufficient volume over time . Now mechanical tension is really what it is , because the progressive overload and the volume is just a way to increase that over time as it gets harder and harder to do so unless you increase the challenge on your muscles . Soreness correlates with none of these . That's the revelation here . You can create mechanical tension through heavy compound movements without generating significant soreness . You can progressively overload by adding weights , reps or sets without chasing any sort of soreness or pain . So this addresses the second part of the question . Yes , you're absolutely doing enough if you are increasing weight in reps over time , regardless of the soreness level . And , just as a quick aside , because we're talking about progressive overload and tracking and training and what matters for your

Join Physique U (get FREE nutrition plan with this link)

Philip Pape 7:57

physique .

Philip Pape 7:57

This is something we definitely help out with in Physique University , which is where the member question comes from . When you join , you get not only a custom nutrition plan if you use the special link in the show notes this is for podcast listeners only . Not only do you get that , we have training templates that are designed around these principles and also flex around your days per week , your equipment access , your experience level , and none of them have to do with chasing soreness in any way . And you could always join Physique University using the link in the show notes and try it out . We've got a series of lessons that will onboard you into how to lift weights , how to breathe , how to brace , how to you know should you wear squat shoes , how to use a power rack , how to use rest periods and so on . So , again , if you want to join Physique University to get all of that , it's still just $27 a month and if you use the special link in the show notes , you will get a custom nutrition plan absolutely free included in that . All right .

Philip Pape 8:51

Next up , I want to explain the sort of fascinating physiology behind why experienced lifters get less sore over time and why that's good for progress . So this is called the repeated bout effect . When you perform the same exercise pattern repeatedly , your body adapts , not just by getting stronger but becoming more resistant to exercise-induced damage , and this means less soreness over time , even as you're making better gains . Your muscle fibers become more resilient to mechanical stress . Your inflammatory response becomes more efficient . Your nervous system coordinates movement patterns more smoothly . Now for some of us that's good and at the same time means you have to continue challenging yourself over time . It's kind of a double-edged sword .

Philip Pape 9:39

So beginning lifters often do experience significant soreness in those first few days or even weeks , because everything is new to them . Everything is novel . Their muscles , their connective tissues , their nervous systems are all adapting simultaneously . But then , as they progress , the soreness diminishes while the strength and muscle mass continue increasing . For some people it happens very quickly . For some people the soreness lasts a little bit longer and also it's affected by your recovery needs . And this is why chasing soreness through constant exercise variation right what some people used to call muscle confusion , or if you look at the CrossFit community , they seem to put on a pedestal . The idea of constantly varied , which we know , in and of itself has no benefit whatsoever other than it might be fun . But if we're trying to make progress to something here , fun can't be the only variable . It can interfere with your progress . Is what I'm saying ? You're preventing your body from adapting efficiently to the movements that drive the best results . Why do you think I have programs like Ironclad in our training templates that are actually built on lots and lots of increasing volume over time without changing the movements ? It's to create that efficient adaptation so that you could then get stronger and build more muscle . So we've covered what DOMS is . We've covered why it's not a progress indicator .

Philip Pape 10:53

But soreness does tell you something useful about your training . So I want to explain what that is . It is telling you about the novelty . So you've introduced a new exercise or rep range or training volume or movement pattern , and soreness often indicates an emphasis on eccentric contractions , like I alluded to earlier . And this can actually be valuable for your muscle development when you program it the right way . So that's one thing . Soreness can also signal recovery issues . This can actually be valuable for your muscle development when you program it the right way . So that's one thing Soreness can also signal recovery issues . So this is where I think it's very , very helpful .

Philip Pape 11:25

If you are consistently getting excessive soreness from what I'll call your routine workouts or training sessions , that might indicate a lack of sleep , insufficient protein or calories , high stress levels , poor hydration , just too much volume , your body just isn't recovering efficiently between sessions . Now , individual variability is huge here , as always , right , we know this . Some people are genetically predisposed to more exercise-induced inflammation . Others have like their muscle fiber composition is more resistant to damage . And you know , neither of these indicate better or worse training outcomes . It's just differences and you have to understand your body .

Philip Pape 12:09

But here's where soreness can become counterproductive to your goals . Extreme soreness this is the kind that makes it difficult to walk downstairs , where you're like man , I'm slammed , that crushed me , that killed me . I can barely

The Repeated Bout Effect Explained

Philip Pape 12:22

stand up . I remember my first couple of times doing CrossFit . I literally felt like I was going to die , like I was going to puke . I had to lay down . It was just insane , right ? That kind of soreness where you can't even lift your arms up is going to interfere with your training quality . It just is .

Philip Pape 12:37

When you are significantly sore , you're going to move differently , you're gonna have a decreased range of motion , you're gonna have less strength , you're gonna have poorer technique . It's just this systemic fatigue emanating throughout your body , and so it creates a cascade of problems Poor movement quality . What does that do ? Well , it increases injury risk . Reduced strength means less mechanical tension , so you're actually not going to hit the intensity you intend . Compromise technique is going to shift the load away from what you're trying to do in the gym , which is focus on specific movements and muscles and develop them .

Philip Pape 13:13

And excessive soreness can set you back with time , with your recovery time . It's not time efficient . If you're so sore from Monday's workout that you can't train effectively for three or four more days , you're going to create a bottleneck in your frequency and then , if you do go into the gym while you're excessively sore , you may exacerbate the issue . You know , worst case , best case , you're just going to train but then not really have much progress . Right , we know that there's a certain amount of frequency , intensity and volume that are needed for optimal growth . So , again , this is why the programs that I create , the templates that we have in Physique University , are designed around sustainable progression . That's really the key here . You know we focus on the training variables that drive results progressive overload , appropriate volume , optimal frequency and if you just ignore soreness completely , you're probably better off , except for its use as a negative indicator of too much of something or not enough recovery right Now .

Philip Pape 14:10

The one thing I didn't mention with recovery is if you're doing a bunch of cardio , if you're doing a bunch of body weight stuff in between your training sessions , that could be making you sore too , and then it's interfering with everything else , including your main lifting sessions . Now this brings us to the most practical part of today's episode . If you should not track soreness , then what should you be monitoring instead ? All right , let's talk about the metrics that predict success with your training , right ? So if it's not soreness which we've said that that's the case now it's not your heart rate , it's not how much you sweat , right , it's not how you feel . We want to be objective . We want to use performance metrics that give you feedback so you can make informed choices , right ? And the member who wrote the question she's already doing a lot of this . You can hear the way she framed the question like I'm doing this , this , this , this .

Philip Pape 14:58

Now I'm trying to understand where soreness fits into the equation . So the first thing is to track your strength progression . Seems obvious but not everybody's doing it . I've had advanced clients who join and they hadn't been tracking their workouts and I was quite surprised by this . But it's more often than you think . You need to track all your sessions , your exercises , your load sets , reps , and then how that progresses over time . And to do that you need to know what did you do last time . If your squat was 225 last time , you're probably going for maybe 230 this time , or maybe you're adding a rep , and that tells you not only what to go for but whether you're making progress , regardless of soreness . So that's strength progression .

Philip Pape 15:35

Then you have to monitor your volume . Everybody I can't tell you the right volume for you . It's gonna depend on your lifestyle , and what I mean by that is the amount of stress in your life , your individual response , and don't buy any of the malarkey about men and women being so different with training volume . There are average . There might be differences to the population level , and even now I'm coming to see there's probably not even that , to be honest that it's much more individual from person to person . So volume is the whole , the total sets that you lift throughout the week , and some people can handle a lot , some people can't . And also , if you're in a surplus or maintenance or deficit , it's going to be different . And also if you're working sub maximally instead of very , at a very high load , that can affect how much volume you can take , because obviously the total tonnage is different , meaning the volume times the load right . So as long as you are increasing in your overall volume , which is usually indicated by weight on the bar and or reps , you're getting the stimulus needed for adaptation .

Philip Pape 16:33

Don't worry about soreness . The next thing I would ask you to think about is your intensity . How hard are you training during your sets ? Are you getting close to the rep shy ? Are you getting to the rep shy of failure that you're intending ?

Better Metrics To Track Progress

Philip Pape 16:47

Or , if it sets across , it should feel , you know , a few reps shy of failure , depending on if we're talking compound lifts or isolation lifts . The goal again is to create sufficient mechanical tension without excessive fatigue . Right to fatigue , not soreness , doesn't matter . Also , your body composition changes matter more than soreness , because if you're gaining muscle mass and you're losing body fat , you're improving your strength to weight ratio . Again , who cares about soreness unless the soreness is holding you back ? And so , speaking of that , of recovery , since excessive soreness does often indicate recovery issues .

Philip Pape 17:20

Let us walk through strategies that work for managing soreness from a recovery standpoint , so that you can get the best adaptations that we're looking for , because that's what the goal is of all of this training stuff that we do . So what is the role of recovery here in managing soreness ? Well , the big one is sleep right . That Muscle protein synthesis is going to peak when you're sleeping . Most adults need at least seven , if not eight or nine , hours for optimal recovery , and if you get enough sleep , you'll probably actually get far less sore . So now we're talking about more .

Philip Pape 17:51

How do you manage the soreness itself ? Because in many cases , you're having soreness and you don't need to . Having enough food and protein supports repair of your tissues . People forget protein is not just to build muscle , it's to repair all tissues in your body . That's why we need enough of those amino acids flooding our system right . It's the remodeling of your body without the excessive inflammation because you don't have enough resources coming in , and this is where , when you're in a fat loss phase , you don't have as many resources . Protein needs to be even higher than , or at least kept high , and you have to manage your volume and all the other things and your sleep and so on .

Philip Pape 18:29

Hydration is also big right . In fact , this is often the go-to for a lot of folks . When you have cramping and soreness is just , you don't have enough fluid coming in . There's your tissues all have . I mean , we are full of water , right , your tissue has a balance of water . Your tissues are always trying to remove waste and dehydration can exacerbate soreness and delay recovery . Most people need at least half of their body weight plus 15 ounces of water a day , probably a lot more than that . If you're training hard , if you live in hot climates , don't neglect hydration . It's huge .

Philip Pape 18:57

Then we have movement . Here's the other thing . People are on their desk all day , even though they lift weights , even though they go for walks . If you're sitting down a lot , that's going to reduce your blood flow and that's going to increase your stiffness and soreness as well . So , just getting up frequently and moving around , right , we're not talking cardio , we're talking walking , moving , yoga , mobility , whatever . Whatever gets you up and moving doesn't matter . Anything that promotes circulation without extra training , stress , right , we're not trying to go do more cardio and all of those things are really great for managing soreness . All right .

Philip Pape 19:26

Now , before we wrap up , I want to address all the recovery methods that you do see promoted online Real quick ice baths , foam rolling , supplements and what works in the context of evidence-based soreness management , because these do come up . All right , foam rolling and massage probably provide some temporarily , mostly perceptual , relief . I mean , I

Recovery Strategies That Actually Work

Philip Pape 19:49

get a massage once a month and I know half of the reason I go is just because it feels good , you know it feels good . The other half is I think there's probably benefit there to my fascial tissue on the outside of my muscles , for a little bit of my range of motion , for getting some extra . I'll say stretching and , you know , digging into the tissue that I just wouldn't be doing on my own right For my shoulder , for example , for my lower back . Similar thing with foam rolling . They might make you feel better . We don't know that they significantly accelerate the recovery process Again outside of a rehab setting . I'm not talking about that . I'm just talking about day-to-day soreness , all right , but some people swear by them . Some people swear by Thera guns right , the self massage , really powerful massage gun . So that's that's . That's foam rolling and massage .

Philip Pape 20:30

What about static stretching ? Static stretching apparently doesn't really prevent DOMS and it may provide some acute relief . But I think you know my position on stretching is you don't really need it as you warm up . You want to warm up , doing the lift and light movement is fine , but extended stretching protocols doesn't necessarily have any benefit and it could backfire in some cases . But anyway , it's kind of seems agnostic when it comes to soreness .

Philip Pape 20:56

What about cold water and cryotherapy ? Again , evidence is mixed . I'm sorry for all of you that are like gung-ho about cold plunges these days . In fact , the more we learn about icing , the more we think it may actually arrest the positive inflammatory response that you need . They might reduce perceived soreness , but they also can blunt some adaptation signals if you're using a lot . So if you don't want to do ice baths , you don't need to . I'm sorry , you just don't . And I'm not even going to talk about saunas . That's one area that I think could be helpful , but I actually didn't come up with any notes on that , so I apologize .

Philip Pape 21:29

What about medicines ? What about NSAIDs like ibuprofen ? They do reduce inflammation and the perception of soreness , but you don't wanna be chronically taking those and they can impair your muscle growth as well . They can stop the inflammatory response , which which is part of the adaptation process . Remember , inflammation is not a bad word , it's a neutral word of something your body naturally does . The question is excessive inflammation , chronic inflammation , versus normal adaptation inflammation . So if we're constantly suppressing inflammation , it can interfere with long-term gains .

Philip Pape 21:57

All right , we covered what soreness is , why it's misleading , what it actually tells you and how to manage it properly . But I want to leave you with one more what it actually tells you and how to manage it properly . But I want to leave you with one more insight to reframe how successful lifters think about their training . Most of the successful lifters that I work with , that I talk to every day , the ones who are making consistent progress they're really into lifting because of the result it gives them . They never talk about soreness . They just . They just never do . I mean , you might have this odd day where somebody's like , yeah , I tried Nordic curls for the first time in two years and I got a little bit sore . That's kind of the extent of it , unless they're doing something stupid outside the gym and they get sore from that . That can happen . But I'm talking about just their training and they're focusing on performance . They're focusing on the lift and their recovery quality and the long-term progression . They understand that .

Philip Pape 22:47

Adaptations about providing the right stimulus consistently over time , not maximizing acute discomfort . I don't even really want workouts to feel feel hard in the discomfort way . They should feel hard in a challenging way . That's making progress . Having said that , I know there are certain lifts everybody has . It's like the lift that they are not a fan of . Okay , but that's a different type of discomfort . I think that's more mental than anything .

Philip Pape 23:12

But I think it's a big irony here is that once you stop chasing soreness and sweat and the YouTube workouts and the endurance training and the P90X and the F45 and the CrossFit and the boot camps and the group classes , all that stuff , and just step back and do some basic lifts , you have plenty of rest period , enjoy pushing yourself and challenging yourself to increase over time . You often end up with better satisfaction and joy from your training . You feel more capable , you are stronger . You see the measurable improvements week to week . You build confidence in the program because you have objective data showing it works , because I'll tell you , feeling wiped after a workout is not objective data that shows it works . So this shift from a pain focus to a performance focus is often that transition from I was a casual exerciser to now I'm a serious trainee and that is when people start seeing the physique changes that they've been working toward , and we would love to help you do that . That's what we do all the time . That is how I design my

Performance Focus Over Pain Focus

Philip Pape 24:18

training templates and guidance around them .

Philip Pape 24:21

So soreness is a normal response to a novel stimulus , but it is neither necessary nor sufficient for muscle growth and strength development . You can get sore from ineffective activities . You can make excellent progress with minimal soreness once you are adapted . So focus on progressive overload , appropriate volume , recovery , quality , track your performance , weight sets , reps , body composition over time . These provide much better feedback about whether your training is working .

Philip Pape 24:47

The goal isn't to punish yourself with miserable workouts that leave you hobbling around as much as that seems to be a mark of pride in some circles . The goal is to provide your muscles with the stimulus they need to adapt and grow stronger , while allowing sufficient recovery for that adaptation to occur . All right Hope I made it clear . If this episode did make it clear , if it clarified your thinking about soreness versus progress , just text it to a friend who's still judging their workouts by how much they hurt afterward . Share this with someone who needs to hear that effective training doesn't require suffering . Until next time , keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember progress happens when you train consistently and recover well , not when you're too sore to move . This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights . I'll talk to you next time .