Philip Pape: 0:00

Hey, this is Philip, and on today's bonus episode, I am bringing you my appearance on Zora Benomu's show, Hack My Age. Zora works with women navigating peri and post-menopause, and she had a lot of great questions about metabolism, muscle loss, hormone replacement, fasting, and why the approach that worked in your 20s often stops working in your 40s. So we covered a lot of ground. She even came up with a new term as we chatted called menopenia for menopause-related muscle loss, which I liked. Here is that conversation. Welcome to the show, Philip Pape.

Zora Benhamou: 0:34

How are you?

Philip Pape: 0:35

I'm great, Zora. Good to see you again. Thanks for having me on.

Zora Benhamou: 0:38

So I've been listening to your podcast. I love it. You got such a great attitude and you have great information there. And I think for all types of people, but what I focus on today is more menopause and nutrition and training, recovery, GLP1s. I want to cover it all. So let's see how far we get. But I liked what you had to say about metabolism. And I just launched this mini offer about midlife and metabolism. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on it as well. So you said that metabolism doesn't slow because of age, mostly because of muscle loss. So why don't you explain how this works?

Philip Pape: 1:12

Yeah, I think metabolism is one of the most confusing topics out there, right? Because we have our baseline metabolism, and then we have all the other things that stack on top of that, like how we move intentionally and not intentionally, as well as how we eat, that affects how many calories we burn every day. And there's really shocking, I guess, research to some people by Herman Ponser, who has studied populations all over the world regarding metabolism that shows from the age of 20 to 60, metabolism really doesn't decline at all among the population, except for when accounted for fat-free mass. So when you start looking at body composition, we see that people start losing muscle in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and then it really ramps up in their 60s and beyond. That's where we see some of that metabolic decline. But then layered on top of that is age-related lifestyle. Not age, but age-related lifestyle, especially for women. You're chronically stressed, probably been under-eating many, many times. We know women go through like over 100 diets in their lifetime. You are not getting enough sleep, and then the muscle mass is declining and you're not doing anything to hold on to it or to build new muscle mass. So when you stack all that together, we see in your 40s, for example, or 50s, where you used to be able to eat 2200 calories to maintain your weight. Now you're at 1800. And that 400 calorie difference feels huge and frustrating because it's exacerbated because you're not moving as much and all the other things we just mentioned. So it is partly muscle mass, but it's also a lot of lifestyle.

Zora Benhamou: 2:40

Yeah, I agree too. And I do remember this course that I took when I was studying gerontology that the professor out there was like, age mage. We're just sitting on our butts. Like I was like, what? We are age-related muscle loss. That's sarcopenia. And yeah, as we age, we are losing our muscle, but a lot of it has to do is because of our lifestyle. But I'm wondering also, you said that muscle loss maybe accelerates more in your 60s. But what I learned is that when we're going through the menopause transition through perimenopause, we can lose up to 10% just in that transition alone. It could be like five years up to 10 years, more or less, or some people have it admit more, but let's say about in five years. And that's a lot of muscle loss in a short period of time. So I think what you're looking at is maybe men and women together, but I think women have that acceleration happening during perimenopause.

Philip Pape: 3:36

Yeah, it's interesting, right? Because this is getting a lot of study right now. Like Dr. Bill Campbell and others are looking at hormone-related and age-related menopause, muscle mass loss, and body composition changes. And there is a lot of variability, but there's kind of on average at the population level, when you're, let's say, 30, you start to lose what, 3% to 8% muscle per decade, is what we've seen. And then it accelerates after 50, 60, is what I was getting at. But when you have the estrogen decline, you have the progesterone changes, you have all of that, you have a counterforce of increased body fat and worsening body fat distribution, right? Like visceral fat around the organs. And that actually exacerbates the muscle loss as well. So I think what you're saying is that at the end of the day, what women care about is that they feel like they have to eat less, they feel like they can't lose weight, it's weight loss resistance, low energy, and they're not happy with their body because they're getting more belly fat and less definition in their physique, right? I mean, that that's about the sum of it all.

Zora Benhamou: 4:30

Yeah. So I just came up with the new word. So we know sarcopenia was we could say it's the age-related muscle loss. I think we have should have a menopenia, the menopause-related muscle loss. Like that should be something we should all look into because the hormones do have a significant impact on our metabolism and all of this, and in addition to everything else. It's just like it's not the only cause, but I think it does have a lot to do with it. And especially, let's say, even not directly, but even indirectly, if you're not sleeping well because you're having night sweats or you're anxious, or you're you can't deal with stress like you used to because of the loss of hormones. Well, then the moment you are able to correct the hormones, then you sleep better. And then if you sleep better, you tend to go to the gym. And then you go to the gym, you can work on muscle, and then you feel like eating something healthy. Like it all kind of spirals in a good way for just getting the hormones right.

Philip Pape: 5:24

It is so connected that people don't even realize how much it's connected. Take, for example, what makes you hungry and what fills you up, right? We have hormones related to that, ghrelin and leptin, and those are directly affected by your reproductive hormones, and they're affected when you're dieting. So a lot of the women I see in that age range, it's not that their metabolisms have tanked by 800 calories. It's that they might be lower by 100 calories, but they have much more craving. Cravings are eating more, they're less active, they have less muscle mass. And even if they're not gaining weight, a lot of them are, but even if they're not gaining net weight on the scale, they're not happy with how they look. You're looking softer and maybe maintaining your weight, maybe not, and looking worse. So, hormones, you think of thyroid. How many women say they have thyroiditis or hypothyroid hypothyroidism or Hashimoto's haven't been diagnosed? Dieting alone can drop your thyroid by five to 10%. And if you're always dieting, you're always suppressed. You're always in that adapted state. So just eating more food, fueling, and lifting weights, like you said, combined with the sleep and recovery, can mitigate that tremendously.

Zora Benhamou: 6:26

Yeah. It so there's a lot of moving parts here, but Philip, you're a diet and fitness coach and you've helped countless women transform their body composition and metabolism. So I got to ask you, what's the fastest thing that can speed up our metabolism, especially in midlife?

Philip Pape: 6:43

I mean, if I had to pick one thing, it would be start lifting weights, period. I think I think strength training is the non-negotiable fastest way to build muscle tissue, which is very hungry, hungry for carbs, it's hungry for calories, and you're gonna love that. But you also have to support that with how you eat and how you move. So you can't be lifting three days a week and then sitting on your butt all day, right? You can't be lifting and under eating all the time and not eating protein. So to me, I'd love to say one thing, it's strengthtaining, but then you also have to support that with your movement, sleep, and what did I just say? Diet. Food.

Zora Benhamou: 7:14

Yeah. Yeah. I always say muscles, muscle is our metabolic spanks. I think this is such a great way to explain it because when we have more muscle mass, the metabolism seems to be revved up. Like we need to eat more. And you feel that hunger. At least most people do, and most people I work with and myself is if I'm training more, boy, that hunger kicks in. And we need to feed the muscles. We can't grow muscles if we don't feed them, right? So yeah. Or at least it's hard. It's just much harder if you if you don't. So I always think, yeah, like you, like you, they go hand in hand, but then, like you said, the sleep, well, yeah, we need we have growth hormone that's activated while we're asleep. So if we're depriving ourselves of sleep, then how are we gonna grow these muscles? Because they're not getting the sleep that they need, right? And then the stress component as well.

Philip Pape: 8:01

Yeah, muscle, muscle is underrated. I did an episode called something like why your muscle burns more calories than you think. And it was based on the premise that all the fitness influencers, they love to say, hey, muscle's metabolically active. You're gonna burn a bunch of calories adding muscle. Well, yes and no. Yes, in the sense that the muscle itself will burn something like six to nine calories per extra pound of muscle, which is not nothing. That maybe that might burn you an extra 100 to 200 calories. It's not nothing. But there's the downstream, the secondary effects of having muscle and the act of training to build muscle that does what you're saying, which really ramps up your metabolism. You've got signaling that's going on to your fat cells, you've got glucose disposal and glucose storage that increases insulin sensitivity. You've got the hormonal stress, the good stress when you train with your IGF, right? Your growth hormone and your testosterone, even the reproductive hormones, because you're using your body in a way that's very fit and healthy. And then all of that is supported when you eat. So having muscle mass from a inflammation, from an insulin, from a fitness lifestyle, all of it just adds up. Bone density, right? Where do we we can just keep going, Zora, and the if it's there are so many.

Zora Benhamou: 9:10

I get stuck. When I say the magic bullet, if I'm interviewing somebody about sleep, I'm like, no, sleep is the magic bullet. Now I'm like, no, no, no, muscle is the magic bullet. There are so many magic bullets that don't cost us anything either. So, and I'm I might that was my next question is to ask you about the other benefits of building muscle because when I talk about it or people hear about it, I'm afraid that they're going, no, I don't want to be a bodybuilder. They don't even want to look like you. Like I, you can see I have muscle mass. I don't even like that look. And I try to say it's not about the way you look, it's about all the other things that you just listed. And as a gerontologist, we know that as we go through life, we are more likely to lose our muscle mass. But when we keep it, we are more independent. Ask any older adult what they want. They want to be independent, they don't want to have their kids take care of them. They want to be living in their own homes. But you can't live in your own home if you can't lift your groceries up the stairs and you can't take care of yourself and you can't open your jars. And this requires muscle. And it sounds kind of scary because you go, Oh, well, I'll never be like that because we can't imagine ourselves when we're 70 or 80. But wait until you get there and you'll be sorry if you don't build this muscle. And again, it's just not about looks, it's about all the things that you said. And when you mentioned bones too, we gotta figure you understand that the bones are so impacted by the amount of muscle we have. And if you're worried about frailty or falls or fractures, and that's going all over the social media now, and then you okay, do your bone density protocol, but part of that protocol has got to be the muscle, right?

Philip Pape: 10:47

Oh, 100%. There's a term now in the research, osteosarcopenia, which combines the bone loss, osteopenia with muscle loss, sarcopenia. Actually, Megan Dahlman, she introduced me to that term, and I started seeing it in the studies, and it's the idea that our body is very systematic or systemic, right? Everything is connected. Our hormones are connected to our fat cells, to our nutrient partitioning, to our muscles, to our bones. And they all, when you improve one, it improves the other, but it improves them both beyond the sum of their parts, right? If that makes sense. So when you lift heavy, and by heavy, we can get into that. It doesn't mean you have to be a power lifter. It's just heavy enough to stimulate your muscles and your bones, your bones will get more dense. They have to. They're responding adaptively to that. And when your bones get more dense and your muscles there, they start to signal each other. And I don't even understand all the chemic biochemistry behind it, right? There's myokines, which counteract cytokines and right inflammation and all that. But if you're concerned about frailty and you're concerned about functionality and getting off the toilet and picking up your groceries into your 80s and 90s, then that's what lifting weights is for. It's not, it doesn't have to be for looks or muscles. Women are not gonna get ever get big unless you're either enhanced or you're working like a beast, like an athlete. And I mean like to the extreme, you know what I mean? You're just not, because men have trouble doing that. Let me tell you. That's what I always come back to. It's very hard for men to do it. So you're gonna be eat more food too, and your metabolism supported, and you're just gonna feel like just a badass, right? Like that's a good thing.

Zora Benhamou: 12:14

I'm also thinking, well, men also have a hard time, and I'm guessing that's partly due to testosterone, and women have a hard time building muscle as we go through menopause because we don't have the estrogen on the board and the testosterone also goes down. So I'm wondering with your clients, because you work with so many women as well, are you seeing those who are on HRT having an easier time, or is it just kind of equal all across the board?

Philip Pape: 12:38

I'm gonna challenge one little thing you said, Zoro, which was that women have a harder time building muscle, because I think the evidence doesn't necessarily support that. I think women can build muscle at the same rate as men far into their life, like 80s and 90s. So I just want to put that out there, right?

Zora Benhamou: 12:52

Yeah, no, I meant harder, harder without the hormones than it was previously with our hormones.

Philip Pape: 12:57

Yeah, exactly. It might be harder for you as an individual than it was before. And all I meant by that, Zor, is a lot of women aren't even training, right? There's kind of a frailty narrative that I see that I think takes away your power, right? And it's like just lifting weights at all, you're gonna add muscle that you never had, you're gonna recover the muscle you've lost, no matter what. It might be at a different rate than somebody else, or it might be slower than you were when you were younger, but you probably weren't doing it when you're younger. Let's be honest, a lot of you listening haven't been lifting weights. So, but to your question about HRT, so I think of HRT as a really powerful tool when clinically and symptomatically indicated. Actual prescription of that's outside my scope of practice, but what I've learned from both men and women is that if you can spend three to six months, let's say, putting together the lifestyle component, the lifting, the movement, the sleep, distress, whatever's important for you that are the big red flags, do it before and after with your labs, with your blood work. If you had suppressed hormones because of your adaptations and your lack of lifestyle, they may recover. And then you can pinpoint, okay, no, progesterone specifically is an issue for me, not all these other ones. Men, the same thing with testosterone. You either have suppressed testosterone because you have excess body fat and you're not healthy, or you just no matter what you do, you have low testosterone, then you need HRT. That's my philosophy. I did an episode called strength training versus HRT, and spoiler alert, there wasn't a versus. It's they can go together and it's individualized. So that's my thought on that.

Zora Benhamou: 14:26

I gotta still go listen to that episode. Like send that one to me. And I'll put that in the show notes if I if we can remember that.

Philip Pape: 14:32

If you need HRT and it's indicated, go for it. That's my opinion.

Zora Benhamou: 14:36

Yeah, now I do hear women from my community who are pre-hormones, they struggle, it's so hard. And then post-hormones, it all seems to get better. And again, is it the hormones or is it just because they're sleeping better now? Or is it because something else? We don't really know. But that's why I've always I don't work with that many women in terms of their fitness and their training. So I always love to pick people's brains who do and say, See, what are you saying?

Philip Pape: 14:59

So well, let's just I we just want to isolate the variables so you're not spending thousands of dollars on 12 hormones that you don't need. You know what I mean? Maybe you need one or two in there that are gonna move the needle. So if you're not lifting, if you have excess body fat, if you're not sleeping, etc., etc., is some of that caused by the hormones? That's what you posed, is like, is my poor sleep by the hormones? Yes, maybe, and you're not doing all the other things. So do all the other things, see what happens as an experiment. It won't take very long. And if things aren't moving, great, you've got your isolated variable, right? Like, I need this.

Zora Benhamou: 15:32

Are you enjoying these episodes, but have a question that I just didn't ask? Well, then why don't you meet our guests for a live QA session just for you? Yeah, face to face on Zoom in a safe and intimate setting. And this is one of the perks of joining the private women's only menopause support group, Biohacking Menopause. Every week we have live QA sessions with me and our podcast guests. It's it's a chance to dive even deeper into a topic or just get a more personalized perspective of the topic and perhaps a second opinion. And there's a lot more going on here from monthly challenges, giveaways, breath work classes, menopause resources, and an incredible group of really smart ladies who share their own experience biohacking menopause. It's really an invaluable source that you just won't find in any other menopause space. So find all the details at biohacking-menopause.mn.co or find the link in the show notes. And I'll see you there. Have you seen this woman floating around Instagram, at least my Instagram, Ginny? And she's an American ninja, age 71. And she's amazing. She and I invited her to the podcast, she accepted. I'm super excited. I'll connect her to you if you want to. Awesome. Because what she was doing, if anyone knows what American Ninja is, it's like this obstacle course, it's insane. You have to hold on to things like it's her grip strength was out of this world. What she was doing, it wasn't, it was balance, it was mobility, it was her proprioception. It was unbelievable. And what was most interesting is that she started to work out at 63. And it just shows you it's never too late. And I want her to come onto the show because one thing for me, or even you, to be like, yeah, well, you know, build Wasshole, protect yourself later on in age, and it's different for me to say it than it is for her to say it. And I'm really excited to get her on the episode because she's just such an inspiration, and it just shows it and just kind of hopefully it will validate what you and I are talking about, hearing from another person.

Philip Pape: 17:35

100%. I was on a guy's show, he was an 80-year-old bodybuilder, and there's a gentleman on Instagram to add to your name is Bruce. Bruce and Jan Train. Yeah. And I connect with him too, and he they're in their 70s. He actually just started sprinting following a protocol that I suggested, but I stole it from Brad Kearns when he was on my show. And he started doing that, and he doubled his power output over four months of training sprinting at 73. You know what I mean? So how do you measure power output? He uses a device that can measure its wattage, so it's like force over time. I don't know. He just, I don't know how exactly how, but yeah. I mean, you don't need to use power, you can use speed, you can use other measures, you know what I mean?

Zora Benhamou: 18:15

Oh, that's so cool. I just I love those my Instagram like search feed is just full of people like that who are just smashing it in their older age. So I just get so inspired by them. It is so okay, we're gonna assume that you've got your sleep hygiene on and that you're managing your stress and all the other things that are really important. But what does an ideal fitness program look like for a woman in midlife who is looking to stay strong and independent and protect her cardiovascular and mental health and lower injury risk? So describe your typical client and walk us through the week.

Philip Pape: 18:50

Yeah, I was wondering how to answer this question. Should I talk about principles or an actual prescription? I'm gonna do a little of both. And I'm the first thing I'm gonna say is the principles of training for strength and muscle and being active apply to everyone, no matter your gender, no matter your age. That's a powerful and helpful thing to know because that means what whoever you are as an individual, as long as what you're doing satisfies those, there are a lot of ways to get there. There's a lot of equipment to use. There's a lot, and that could feel overwhelming, right? So that's where I'm gonna give you a little bit of prescription. But the basic principles are gonna be lifting with enough frequency and enough volume so that you can actually get stronger and build muscle using what's called progressive overload, right? Which is challenging yourself more and more with time. It's using normal human movement patterns when you do that by loading yourself somehow, right? We're gonna talk about weights, machines, whatever. And then it's being active in the rest of your life, not in a stressful way with like chronic cardio and tons of running or something that you hate, but things you enjoy, play, sprinting, walk, and walking, lots of walking and just moving throughout the day. Like that's the principle of it. So, what does that look like? I would say for a beginner, it's probably two to three. Sessions a week, anywhere from a half an hour to an hour, depends on your schedule, of working on the basic movement patterns, squatting, picking things up, pressing, pulling, which many of us know what exercises translate to that. Squats, deadlifts, bench press, overhead press, rowing, the basic stuff. And again, now it sounds like bodybuilding, but you can do the do those with dumbbells, with a machine. You can do it just with your body. If you are really out of shape, you have a lot of extra weight to lose, your joints hurt, your back hurts, you've never done this before. Start where you're at, find a good coach or really good videos. It's hard for people though. You mentioned pro perception. Most people are pretty clumsy and klutzy when it comes to trying to get good at lifting the first time. And even people who think they're good, I'm raising my hand, find that they have a lot of things to fix when they finally talk to a coach after two years of thinking they're squatting the right way. Doing those movement patterns and progressing them over time is your foundation. And then getting a lot of walking in and being active is going to complement that. Food is a different topic, but to me they go hand in hand, but we can keep that aside.

Zora Benhamou: 21:02

Let's stay in the fitness part first because one of the part of that question was lower injury risk. Because as we're getting older, I mean, I'm 55 and I don't want to get injured. I feel that it it's especially when we lose our hormones. Again, this is another symptom is that do you seem to be injuring yourself more or you have maybe loss of bone density and maybe you get a fracture? That's not as common in menopause, but or in perimenopause. But I want to keep being active, but I realize that I may be putting myself at risk if I keep pushing it like I used to. So, what are some things that you recommend to still get the gains and still have strength and power and muscle mass, but yet lower that injury risk?

Philip Pape: 21:45

The first thing is to dispel some myths that lifting is even a cause of injury in general, because it's not, it's one of the lowest risk activities we can do in the world. Running is number one, soccer is like number two, right? Contact sports are up there. So it's actually quite safe. And that's why I mentioned the thing about form. If you can put your body into the correct movement pattern, neutral back and correct depth and correct balance and all that, you will start where you're at, which means you may be lifting a 15-pound bar, or you might be lifting 10-pound dumbbells to start. For most people, that's gonna seem like you hardly challenging yourself. So if you can do that without injury, you can then progress to heavier and heavier weights slowly. And as you do that, every time you sleep, your body is taking those amino acids, putting them into your muscle cells, making them a little bigger and stronger. Your bones are getting a little denser. Next time you go in, 10 pounds is gonna feel light. 15 pounds is gonna be what you push. Then the next time, 20 pounds, then 25. And you just have to push it that way. Injury comes from doing stupid things, doing it fast, not resting long enough, trying to do CrossFit type stuff when you have no training and don't know how to lift the weights. But slow and controlled lifting with focus, with mindfulness, and some coaching and support to do the right form. Once you've got this foundation, you can then progress for the rest of your life and not have to worry about that. To add to that, Zora, is a lot of people with problems of injuries, joint issues with their knees, with their elbows, back issues, they see those go away when they start lifting. Because now you're getting stronger and you're supporting your spine.

Zora Benhamou: 23:16

Yeah. And I always think that people should get, if they don't never done this before, please get a coach and some guidance. And because I wouldn't know where to like when I first started lifting or doing exercises, I was like, I don't know. And then when I'd get a coach, he's like, You're doing it wrong. I was like, Really? I I feel your appropriation is off a little like you think you're doing it right, but if somebody's looking at you, take a photo of you, they show you your form isn't right. So it's really hard to do this on your own. So I encourage people to get a trainer, at least invest in one for the beginning until you get the foundation right, and then yeah, progressively go on. But I'm a big fan of blood flow restriction, targeted compression training. There's many ways to say it. And I love this device because these are tools that we use. We put them on our arms or these bands that you put on your arms or your legs, there's so many different kinds, and some are cyclical and some are constant, but they all seem to do the same thing in the end. And that helps us not lose muscle mass if we had surgery or injury and we can't do that. But it also may help us get some gains with lifting lighter weight. Because if I asked my 85-year-old father-in-law to go lift heavy weight, he's like, There's no way. But putting these bands on and doing something body weight may help. So I would love to know your thoughts. If you know anything about blood flow restriction and you've ever used it.

Philip Pape: 24:38

Yeah, I've used it. I've used it for years. I have smart cuffs. I have the really expensive ones. Uh-huh. I think the general consensus, and when we look at the studies and even the owners of these businesses, just to disclose if conflict of interest, is it's a great supplement to regular lifting, and it's great for rehab, like you mentioned. There's it, there's its own misery and pain with using blood flow restriction that some people will find mentally hard, harder or just as hard as just lifting a few reps heavy. You know what I mean? So I think the word heavy gets diluted when we talk about lifting. I did an episode called Strength versus Hypertrophy. It's a really good one that walks you through the whole thinking of different percentages of weight relative to your max to show you that if you just want to build muscle, you've got a wide range of load such that you can lift as little as 35% of your maximum, which is like 20, 25 reps, or you can do really heavy up to 80, 90%, where you're down to doubles or sing or triples. So I don't want people to get scared by the idea of lifting heavy. You can definitely lift moderate 8 to 12, 12 to 15 reps, make tremendous gains. And then blood flow restriction is a nice supplement. And, you know, if you like it, it's great for a really wicked pump as a finisher as well, and doing isolation work too.

Zora Benhamou: 25:58

Yeah, I think it's a great addition. And I use I've been using them for ages because I had osteoarthritis. I couldn't move, I couldn't do impact. And I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna lose my muscle mass. Didn't lose it, and I even gained it with just the simple rehab, the limited mobility I had. So I'm a hundred percent convinced. But I also have been talking about this for years and years, but even before then, and I hear a really great feedback, all different kinds of I mean, I've gone through all the whole gamut, and yeah, the constant ones are yeah, a little harder. And you'd see your heart rate going up when I lift a baby weight with the cuffs on, and then if I don't have any weight, or if I don't have the cuffs on but the same weight. So I see my I can measure it through my data and my watch or whatever device that you're using. And it is not only about hypertrophy, at least depends. Maybe the devices have some distinctions, but it's also good for vascular health, for your heart. True. Yeah, or for many other things that I think that would aren't are not even counted blood flow. It's incredible what these things do. It's not just about, I mean, I was so happy with the muscle that, anyways, I mean, it's just it is a little bit more than I I gotta I'm gonna dive deeper because I only am familiar with a couple of devices, and I really want an expert who can be give us the overall picture and teach us a bit more about all those fine details of the benefits of blood flow and who should do it and who shouldn't as well.

Philip Pape: 27:23

Yeah, I should I should connect you with the owner of Smart Smart Tools because they they're a good company that's done a lot of studies in the area. It's kind of like weighted vests, it's a really good tool. It doesn't completely replace lifting. I will say to the cardiovascular piece, if you wear the leg cuffs and walk or bike, I mean that you will feel that pump. Like you will feel that challenge. I also am always concerned that people hear that and they're like, oh, now I have to get this extra thing. I have to learn how to use it. It's just one of those points of friction. So if you're listening, there's a lot of ways to roam, a lot of roads to roam, and everything we're telling you here could work. Find what works for you. Can do it at home with stuff you already have with your body. Can you do it at home with dumbbells or bands? Do you have access to a barbell or a gym? What is the thing that you it's easy? And just and don't make any more excuses. Just get in there.

Zora Benhamou: 28:09

I'm using a device called Suji now, and I've been using the katsu as well. They're both great. And even before that, just a typical cuff with a blood pressure. And that's like the cheapest way to do it if people really want to get into it. I didn't realize that there's a mode that Suji has called recovery mode. And so they're using these bands for recovery, which I'm just completely discovering now. And so you just put them on and it's and you just sit and let it just sit. And it's a little bit more of a cycle. Yeah, it's on, it pumps up for a couple of minutes and then off for a couple of minutes. But I'm I want to talk this about recovery. So, okay, that's one way to recover. But in menopause, yeah, it's just like that was the segue. Yeah, but I want to talk about recovery because in menopause, we seem to need a little bit more time to recover. At least I'm seeing this, and people in my community are seeing this, where we say, Oh, it's just one day, boom, we're off to the races again. And now we're like, oof, I think I need two days or maybe even more. So, what are your top strategies to support better recovery in between workouts?

Philip Pape: 29:08

I mean, we can't stop mentioning sleep, but sleep specifically would be not just the hours of sleep, because everybody's like, oh God, there he goes again, get eight hours of sleep. No. Okay, if you can only get six hours, six and a half hours of sleep, the game changer is going to be consistent bedtimes and wake times and understanding that your wake time is something that almost becomes programmed as part of you. It's very hard to change. And so if you assume that as your starting point, okay, I always get up at 6 a.m. no matter what. Even if I go to bed at 3 a.m., my body gets me up at 6 a.m., right? Can you relate? And so back that into what you would need to get like your deep sleep and your REM sleep. From a recovery standpoint, if you care about tracking and metrics, tracking your sleep stages can be really helpful. And then you'll see the difference based on your bedtime and your consistency of that bedtime. Because I've known people that just push it back by half an hour and all of a sudden they get an extra hour of deep sleep from that half hour. So to me, that's the recovery thing. You could do all the other hacks for sleep. That's a whole podcast, right? I'm sure you've talked about the cool dark room and the no screens and all that stuff. Yeah. It is important. I also think food is the biggest underused recovery mechanism for women. And that means eating enough calories and eating enough carbs. Carbs, yes, carbs, carbs, if you're lifting weights, are massively beneficial for recovery. They're beneficial before you work out because you got that glycogen in your muscles, you got the glucose in your blood, and now you're you can get through that session with lots of energy to push hard, to get all the reps, to not feel winded, and it feels good. And then it helps with your recovery afterward because you won't be sore and you won't feel like as much muscle tearing and that that metabolic stress from the metabolites and stuff, right? So that's important. Then the carbs and the food afterward are helpful for recovery too. And then just having overall enough energy to match your metabolism, right? Or maintenance calories, as we call it, at least, if not slightly more than that. Yes, you risk gaining a little weight, but you that most of that's gonna be muscle, is the biggest thing you do for energy. So sleep and food. And then beyond that, we can go into all the one percenters.

Zora Benhamou: 31:13

So, okay, one question quickly. Which tracking device do you use for your sleep? I have an aura ring. Aura ring. Okay. Now you said about the food, the calories and the carbs. And I want to get a little bit granular with this for somebody who's listening. Is like, well, what does it mean? And how many calories and what kind of carbs? And I wanted to find a little bit the carbs because I'm one of these people, I'm like, I get plenty of carbs. I eat tons of vegetables, and I eat a little bit much too much fruit now in the summertime. But I don't eat a ton of the potatoes, the sweet potatoes, the quinoa, and all these other great carbs. I eat them, but not as much. So I'm wondering, is there a big difference? I know probably the sugar, but what's the big difference in terms of somebody who's trying to build muscle and speed up their metabolism with these two types of carbs?

Philip Pape: 31:59

It's it's gonna be very individual. So when you say you don't eat a lot, do you know how many grams you eat a day right now?

Zora Benhamou: 32:04

How many grams of what? Carbs? Carbs. Oh gosh, it's I eat when I was tracking it, it was probably around 100 to, and then now it's probably closer to 200 because I'm eating a lot of fruit.

Philip Pape: 32:16

Okay. And for a female of your stature, height, whatever, I'm not gonna guess your weight and put all that, but you know, I could just guess that 150, 200 grams of carbs probably passes that threshold where it's enough to refill your glycogen for your training and to recover and to support muscle building and all that, right? So it's not like you need 500 grams of carbs. The problem, I think, is people cut carbs and they restrict and they go way low, like far below 100 grams, right? To try to do keto or whatever. And they're doing it thinking that there's a benefit for fat oxidation or fat sort sorge. And there isn't. At the end of the day, it's your energy balance, right? Your calories and calories out that affect how much weight you gain or lose. Carbs, though, are so powerful for muscle mass and body composition. And people don't realize that because when you eat enough carbs, it spares your body from having to convert protein into energy. So you get enough energy there. It also increases your or reduces your stress. This is another side effect of carbs, people don't realize. I've had women, it's almost like a guaranteed split test. Add in 100 grams of carbs, and all of a sudden all the stress stuff starts to feel better, your energy is better, you don't have the energy crashes, all of that, right? And then you mentioned vegetables. Well, what's a big part of carbs? It's fibrous nutrient-containing foods. So if we're talking about food quality and micronutrients, if even if it is starches like potatoes and quinoa, oats, or vegetables or fruit, you're getting all your fiber needs, and that has its own set of benefits for gut health and satiety.

Zora Benhamou: 33:46

Okay, so it doesn't matter so much what kinds of carbs we get. I mean, we want not the junk food carbs, but in terms of starchy carbs versus non-starchy carbs, it doesn't matter?

Philip Pape: 33:58

It matters in certain scenarios. So like it matters as a pre-workout. So you want fast digesting carbs, right? More simple sugars like fruit before workout, and you don't want to dilute it with fats and fiber as much fiber, which would slow things down. After a workout, it's less important because you've got a nice long window to recover, so it doesn't matter. I would say if you're worried about blood sugar, so if you're diabetic, you definitely have to be in tune with your blood sugar spikes. If you're not diabetic, you really don't have to be worried as much if you're lifting weights, if you're living a good lifestyle, if you're walking. But if you're concerned about that, this is where having balanced foods, balanced meals is helpful, and that's where the fiber-containing carbs are important. Now, potatoes, they're the highest satiety food on the planet. Like people don't realize that. White potatoes, not French fries, when you add oils and everything, but white potatoes. So it doesn't matter, no, but I think nutrient density, quality, and whether you're training are variables.

Zora Benhamou: 34:54

Okay, good. Yeah, for muscle, yeah, probably not. But I would like to keep those starchy carbs at night. I eat them more towards bedtime because I feel like oh, this sleep should make me sleepy. They should keep my blood sugar more regulated in the evening. I'm not doing the blood sugar monitor. I'm doing the the ultra human. I don't know if you know ultrahuman, it's like the aura, but they have I'm testing out their thing. And yeah, I notice if I oh, I need lentils plus olive oil before I go to bed, like right before I go to bed. They always say we should leave three hours in between. And I realize for me, I learned that a long time ago with other experiments that I should not be doing that because I go so hypoglycemic when I leave too much time. And I usually go for a walk after dinner, and I just like poof, my blood sugar is too low. So I've I realize my best blood sugar balance will be eating something right before bed. Crazy.

Philip Pape: 35:43

Well, and that's the importance of tracking these things and your biofeedback and experimenting by changing one thing at a time. You and I were joking, I think before we started recording, about how AI can give you all these answers to your questions, but they can't give you the answer for you necessarily unless you're able to really give it a lot of context and know what to tell it. Oh, I'm telling it.

Zora Benhamou: 36:03

I'm telling it. Yeah, you're telling everything. Yeah, yeah. Her name's Sheila.

Philip Pape: 36:07

Sheila, okay. So, yeah, exactly. I love it.

Zora Benhamou: 36:10

Crazy, yeah.

Philip Pape: 36:11

So meal timing is a huge aspect because I know we have people fasting. That's another topic we could get into. People trying to play with different feeding windows, people work out in the morning first thing, right after they take thyroid meds. How the heck do I eat? There's all these individual scenarios, and there's not a right answer. It's for everyone, there's a right answer for you. And so, like your lentil and fat thing is a solution for good blood sugar management and sleep, right? Somebody else, it might keep them up, it might keep them waking up in the middle of the night and feeling stressed. So yeah.

Zora Benhamou: 36:43

It is so individual, and it's hard to remember everything. That's why I like AI. Like remember, remember this or remember touch tests say I can't even remember anymore. But but I think some of these apps, like the ultra human, are using artificial intelligence to help you remember some of these things and remind you, hey, you know, you you plugged in that you ate lentils and olive oil before bad, and that was really good. And today you didn't do it, you used taurine or I don't know, did some other hack, didn't work as well. So maybe it it's this is the future as well. We'll get a little easier as it in terms of trying to pick out what are those levers, because when we're doing these little experiments, honestly, we don't really know. Is it the lentils, or is it because I don't know, I did something else that day that impacted it? It could there's just too many variables, but maybe in the future we'll have a better time with this, or it'll get a little bit easier to weed those things out personally, personally, not just yeah, to personalize it.

Philip Pape: 37:42

Yeah, and I'm a big fan of all the biohacking in the data. And at the same time, I know some people who listen, depending on what podcast it is, want to major in the minors, right? As they say, they want to go straight to those solutions before they're just eating enough protein, right? So I always like to say, what's your hierarchy? What's your level one, two, three? If your level one is you're sleeping five hours a night, you're eating 40 grams of protein. Well, right there I can tell you, don't worry about the other stuff just yet. And then when you get all that dialed in, start looking at the other metrics. That's that's my philosophy on it.

Zora Benhamou: 38:12

As I was listening to your podcast, you've been lately doing a lot of episodes on GLP ones. These are those weight loss peptides that everybody's hearing about. And I don't know, I think I heard a stat. I know, so you or somebody else, like one in seven Americans are now on some kind of peptide to lose weight. And so a lot of people are using it. And I'm wondering, are you I myself, I kind of know your stance on it, but I'd love for you to share a little bit what you're seeing with your community and what your thoughts are. But tip targeted to woman going through this perimenopause and menopause transition.

Philip Pape: 38:47

So I did an episode, you probably are alluding to this, about called Ozempic envy, right?

Zora Benhamou: 38:53

Ozempic envy, yes. Right?

Philip Pape: 38:55

And that was a term I made up. I don't know if you Google it, maybe somebody else said it before, but the idea that we are we've got weight loss camps, and some people are taking Ozempic for different reasons. Some are prescribed because they have diabetes, others are prescribed the corollaries that are not for diabetes for weight loss, especially if they're extra weight to lose. And then there is a subsection doing it purely maybe for vanity or for as a shortcut, right? So there's all different categories. I'm not going to generalize. I think, like HRT, it's a tool, it's a very powerful tool, though, almost miraculous. Like it's insane, especially the dual and now triple agonists they're coming out with that hit not only those peptides, but the liver, like the glucagon-based ones. Can like reduce liver fat. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a former client who we together went through fat loss, like I'll say all naturally, right? Doing the normal things. And then later on, he decided to do a research experiment with Eli Lilly as a participant for the new triple agonist. And he lost weight. He lost like four pounds a week over like 12 weeks. Like it was extremely rapid. Now he lifts weights, he's doing the right thing. Things, but he said he did like a body composition analysis and a liver test, and like his fatty liver dropped precipitously. It's crazy, right?

Zora Benhamou: 40:09

So wait, but how do we know? Because he's wifting weights too, like how much of the impact because he lost so much, it was rapid weight loss, but probably because he was doing the two things at the same time.

Philip Pape: 40:19

Exactly. So you always have to say if you did that naturally, if you simply just ate less, like that causes you to do, would you have the exact same results? I can't answer that for the more advanced ones. They may have other mechanisms they tap into that are like the super soldier version of something that you can't replicate. Kind of like when we hear about myostatin blockers in the future where you could just get jacked without lifting weights. I don't know. This is the future of humanity. But your question is, what what do I think about them? I think if you need a tool and you're willing to put in the work to address the lifestyle root causes, and the tool enables you to get rid of something that prevents that, it can be helpful. Like the food noise, the brain-related genetics that lead to appetite dysfunction, people who've yo-yo dieted many times in their life. Some of them just so struggle with emotional eating and binge eating. This is the catalyst they need. And I've seen it, I've seen it work wonders in that way in a very positive way. People on Terzepatide, for example, seems to be a really popular one, Manjaro, right? In that they will start to lose weight, they'll hear my podcast, they'll reach out, they'll be like, what should I be doing at the same time? Because they're not getting advice, by the way, from the medical industry for the most part. And I'm like, all right, let's get you lifting, let's eat your protein, let's track your food. Because what's gonna happen is you're gonna eat too little on this drug, most likely, especially if you're lifting weights. And you're gonna want to actually eat more than your appetite's telling you, which is one of the challenges, right? I had a guy who was, he was like, Yeah, I just eat a thousand calories, it turns out, without thinking about it. He's like a 200-pound guy. Like, okay, okay, we got to get that up because you're gonna lose muscle no matter what, even if you're lifting weights at that aggressiveness. So they do it, and you start to put in the lifestyle, you start to change your diet to more protein and fiber and nutrient-dense foods. And then what you can do is titrate down with your doctor's help and see how that affects your appetite and then everything else. And what you should see is a better appetite regulation when you're doing the lifestyle component so that you can maybe get off the drugs permanently and then maintain that lifestyle. And what the way I like to do it is have it coincide with the fat loss phase, like a glide path, come out of the drug and then start eating at or above maintenance to counteract the ramped up appetite for a while, and then things will normalize. That's what I've seen.

Zora Benhamou: 42:32

So the yeah, the game I think people don't understand, but they want to try it out, you test it out, and then what? Can you afford it still? Are you what's gonna happen when you stop? If you hopefully you will stop. And I'm always wondering what happens to the people who have eating disorders. And I did a podcast episode with the specialist in eating disorders, and she argued that the problem is still there. The emotional eater is there because of deep trauma or a wound that happened in childhood, and that doesn't go away. The GLP ones will take away the food noise and help that person, and they may lose weight, but the moment they go off of it, it's back again. And so she believes that they need to resolve the issue and maybe and using the GLP ones that would maybe getting help, professional help in addition to the GLP ones, if that's that person, I think would be another tool in the toolbox, just like lifting weights and dialing in the protein and getting the nutrition right, because I've seen too many people who are not doing the work. It's just too easy and they're having a great time eating whatever they want and they're not eating that much, and then I and then they gain it back. But I do see plenty of women and men as well who are doing it right. And there are ways to do it. And I'm glad that you are guiding them through this. But I'm wondering if with the emotional eaters that you're working with, or if you have any, how are you helping them navigate this space?

Philip Pape: 44:04

So emotional eating is one of those things that you could, I would say, categorize, right? And I if somebody has a true eating disorder, an ED or they're anorexic, or even an overobsession with a certain way of eating that's just mentally connected to their mental health. I'm gonna refer them to someone else. I know other coaches who are have clinical backgrounds in dealing with that. And I don't, I'm not qualified, or even if I was, I don't want to take that on personally. And I'd love to help people, but I have my limits and I know my limits. So that's over there. Then there's the bucket of, I'll call it emotional eaters, which is just most humans. Let's be honest, we all have some level of emotional eating in our background. And it I like a tools and process-based approach, like managing your environment, pre-planning, adding structure with flexibility. Doing all the things we know the research shows us is the opposite of what led to a lot of that emotional eating in the first place, like restrictive dieting. So if we can do these more flexible approaches and see if that just resolves it in general for someone, that's awesome. But then you have the people kind of in the middle who you use tools with them and things get better and then they relapse. And then they have some major binge episodes. And you're like, I don't know if I'm not going to diagnose an eating disorder or not, but if like happens occasionally, is that an eating disorder? Again, I don't know. And do they need to work on that emotional trauma or do they need to just work with what they know their reactions tend to be, and it actually is okay, whatever the result is. You know what I'm saying? So it's very complicated, is my point. There's a gentleman in our group who was doing great, and he's like, I went on a vacation and I ate 6,000 calories in multiple days, and I gained 35 pounds. And first of all, he didn't gain 35 pounds of fat. This is another thing I talk with people about all the time. You have to overconsume by 3,500 calories for one pound of fat. And if you just looked at his numbers, he maybe gained 10 pounds over two weeks, right? Still a lot, but not 35. A lot of that's glycogen and fluid and stuff. But uh, he reminded me of a different client I had who loved to binge at barbecues and he would eat like 7,000 calories. But because his goal was an average of like 3,500 a day, and he only did this once or twice a month. We played the numbers game. We said, you know what? That's actually fine if you just want to plan to go hog wild, pun intended, at a barbecue and plan it in, and that's the only time that ever happens, practically for your life. Does that is that okay? Right. And it was. So it's complicated, Zora, is my point, right? Like we're all that's the thing. We're we're all individuals. Yeah.

Zora Benhamou: 46:38

Tell some of our when I was health coaching more back in the day. I was telling women let's who didn't want to give up their X, Y, or Z. I just said, let's see how much we can get away with. That's all. It's not saying take this out forever. Like just where is your point? And you would see all different people with different, different levels. Some can get away with high amounts and others with very little. So that's where we biohack our way through our fitness and nutrition, right?

Philip Pape: 47:05

It's an engineering problem. And I hate to be cold and calculated about it, but it really is for a lot of people. It's like a numbers problem. And if you could figure out the numbers, you get the confidence back and you're like, yeah, I can have my pizza now.

Zora Benhamou: 47:15

Yeah, exactly. So I wanted to hear your thoughts on fasting for women in midlife and considering all kinds of women, like athletic, obese, sedentary, injured, diseased, 80 plus, whatever it is. What are your thoughts?

Philip Pape: 47:29

We're talking about fasting in general, right? Like intermittent fasting and time-restricted feeding and it's a big umbrella word because yeah, just sleeping is fasting.

Zora Benhamou: 47:37

We're all fasting, okay.

Philip Pape: 47:38

Right, right, exactly. All right. So fasting has, I'll say, a couple benefits that we need to acknowledge. It has many claims that are not benefits we need to dispel, and then and then a lot of negatives. Okay, so let's just put it that way. The biggest benefit of fasting to me is I call it time restricted feeding because that's what's in the research, is structure. You can create a feeding window that is structured, just like your meal timing. Like when you eat and also how much you eat can be better controlled. If you're in a fat loss phase with in a calorie deficit and you are only eating, let's say 1400 calories, it might be easier to do that with a restricted window. That's the main benefit. Now, there's a lot of claims about fasting, like autophagy and longevity and cellular function and the brain fog goes away. And you've heard them all. And some of those are anecdotal. Some of them we see them in the population, but we see just as many have the opposite effect. I started fasting and it actually got worse. And so a lot of that, there's explanations for them, but it seems like long term, it doesn't matter. If you fast or don't fast, you're gonna have the same result it when matched for calories, right? We know that when matched for calories, you're gonna have the same result. The negatives, however, for women over 40 are it's highly stressful on you to fast in many cases. If you're training fasted, there's a lot of negatives there because you might not be able to push as hard. Like we talked about the pre-workout banana. I don't know if I mentioned banana. My favorite pre-workout.

Zora Benhamou: 49:02

I do banana, banana and cottage. It's great. Like my thing.

Philip Pape: 49:06

Because it's moderate fiber, it's high in simple carbs, and it also has electrolytes. So it's great. It's a great pre-workout. But one of the easiest hacks for most of my clients is like, add that banana before you work out, let me know how you feel. And it's like, oh my God, you know, I felt so much better in the gym, and then I wasn't sore, and this and that, and the other. The claim people make, or you probably hear this, is I'm gonna burn more fat when I'm fast, right? Intermittent fasting or fasted training. It is true you're gonna oxidize more fat when you don't have food in your system because you don't have the blood sugar available. But let's take a simple example. Eat a banana before training or after training. Let's compare the two. Let's say you eat a banana before training, it's a hundred calories. Then you train. Well, now you have that blood glucose to use. And let's say you burn 100 calories and you net out zero, right? Eight a hundred, burned a hundred, no change. Or let's say you do it fasted. You burn a hundred calories, that's gonna have to come from fat. Oh, great, I just burned fat. Well, now you're gonna eat that hundred calorie banana afterward, and it's gonna get stored as fat. It's gonna get converted from carbs to fat. So at the end of the day, it nets out, doesn't it? People on keto, yeah, ketones, fat burning, and all that are burning a lot more fat. They're eating a lot more fat. At the end of the day, it's just two different energy sources. And I know I'm getting into kind of a different topic, but I do think it's kind of related. So I'm not a fan of fasting unless you know as an individual it's optimal and you feel great and it helps you perform. 95% of people don't feel that way, other than the structure piece of it.

Zora Benhamou: 50:32

I imagine in your world and very often in mine too as well, because I attract people who are a bit more athletic. Yeah, it doesn't seem to be working out so well for this population. This is what I'm seeing. The guys do better when I was working with men, I was like, why are the guys doing better? And the girls not so much. And and then, of course, yeah, as we're going through menopause, all the hormonal changes, like our adrenals have enough of a hit, like to put it in that state. But I can't deny that I've worked with women and usually they're a bit more sedentary or a bit more obese, and they have really fabulous results with fasting. So I think it's all what can I say? Research says this, but you have a great result, or research says this and you have a bad result. Again, I think it kind of goes down to we're all bioindividual, and you just got to do your own experiment and see what works for you.

Philip Pape: 51:21

Yeah, and I have not ever told somebody not to fast and train if they want to and if it feels good for them and if it's practical, right? I mentioned the thyroid meds in the morning. This is a common one, and they're like, I just want to get up and work out and I have to take the meds so I can't eat. Okay. In that case, do what I think is working for men. It might one of my theories you mentioned men is first of all, they have more muscle mass and maybe more glycogen storage, but also they're probably eating more, right? They're eating more calories in general, and that probably translates to like bigger dinners with more carbs that then translate into the morning if they're training in the morning. That that's my one of my theories. I've seen guys be more resilient, is what you suggested. So if it's practical for you, great. Experiment. Experiment, add the banana before you work out and see what happens. And then as far as weight loss and fat loss, that's down to calories. So if your adherence and sustainability is better on fasted training, then that's a reason to do it, or fasting in general. Yeah.

Zora Benhamou: 52:13

Yeah, you're right. It's everybody has their preferences. Not only how do they respond, but does it is it going to fit in with your lifestyle and what you like and don't like? And that's why you do what you do is you coach everybody through this. Important.

Philip Pape: 52:26

Yeah.

Zora Benhamou: 52:26

So my last question, then, as a diet and fitness coach with one of the top performing podcasts in nutrition, what is the one thing women in midlife need to do to understand about her changing body? That you have more control than you think.

Philip Pape: 52:41

You have more control than you think. You know, your body's not broken, everyone is a little bit different. But the approach that worked when you were younger, eating less, doing more cardio, it's not gonna work anymore. It probably didn't work as well as you thought then. Maybe it kept you skinny. But other than that, it's not gonna work. Your hormones have changed, the muscle mass loss, the stress levels are probably higher. But what's amazing is that just moving the needle a little bit by being active, by training, by eating the protein and doing the things we talked about today, experimenting and understanding your body. I mean, this can be the best phase of your life. That's all I'm gonna say.

Zora Benhamou: 53:17

Yeah, I like that ending. It should be the best years of your life. And we can make it that way. There's plenty of women who are smashing it and showing it. So I am gonna have links to that amazing podcast, Wits and Weights, in the show notes. And you got a menopause fat loss over 40 guide, which is cool. I can't believe I didn't open that. I usually open all of these things and I'll have to go do that myself. And then you have a strength training for hormone health, and I'll have a link to your Instagram, which is Wits and Weights. And wow, thank you so much, Philip, for all your knowledge.

Philip Pape: 53:49

All right, that was my conversation with Zora. If you want to check out her show, it's called Hack My Age. I'll link to it in the show notes. And I do have a quick question for you. I'm trying these bonus replay episodes to give you a little more content without adding to my production load and filling in a space where we wouldn't have an episode anyway. So I want to know, do you enjoy these particular styles of episode? Would you rather hear more guest appearances like this one or something else, whether it's QA, any other deep dives, any other types of bonus content besides what you're already getting three times a week? I'd love you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and tell me what you think there. Five stars would be very much appreciated because reviews help the show reach more people who need this message and understand what we talk about. And then I read these to hear what's landing and what you want to hear more of. And I like to give shout outs as well. Thank you so much for listening, and I will talk to you next time.