Five signals your body sends

Philip Pape 0:00

You've heard me say it a hundred times on this show. Eat enough protein, track your macros, be in a moderate deficit for fat loss. And that's all true, but what if you're doing all of that and you're still struggling through every afternoon, still thinking about food constantly, still one bad day away from a binge that wipes out a week of progress? My guest today is a registered dietitian who has spent a decade studying why even well-designed nutrition plans often don't work. And that's because there's a foundational skill we're often ignoring. It's not about eating less, it's about building meals that crush your hunger. And when she shows you the data on what happens when people get this right, including spontaneously eating 400 fewer calories a day without trying, you'll understand why I invited her on. So stick around to learn this powerful approach that will change the way you put your meals together forever. Welcome to Wits and Weights, where in every episode we put a popular piece of fitness advice under the microscope, find the hidden reason it doesn't work, and give you the deceptively simple fix that does. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and I've invited on Abby Sharp. She is a registered dietitian who built one of the largest evidence-based nutrition platforms in the world. She's the author of the best-selling book, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method, host of the Bite Back podcast, and works with women every day who are stuck in that cycle of unsustainable eating and insatiable hunger often. And that cycle is what this episode is about. Now, most of us, most of you dear listeners, are adults who lift weights. Many of you are over 40. Many of you understand the basics like protein, calories, fiber, micronutrients. And Abby and I are going to explore the satiety science underneath all of that. Why do hunger and food noise really get in the way of the best plan? Why is the combination of macros or compounds in each meal important when it comes to hormones that control hunger? Why is food composition and satiety important to fueling your body to give it both what it wants, also what it needs? And of course, we want to love our food and what we eat. Abby's going to show us how to build every meal so that hitting your goals feels more spontaneously effortless than just white knuckle boxing mats with your hunger and cravings, like we're all familiar with. Abby, welcome to the show.

Abbey Sharp 2:20

Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. That introduction was just what a great start to my day. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Philip Pape 2:29

Thanks for coming on and thanks for what you do. I think your podcast is awesome. And I think the listeners are going to get a lot out of this because we are very much aligned. And, you know, it's not that we're in an echo chamber, but there are things that surprisingly people still aren't familiar with that can really help them, that can really help them out. Yeah.

Abbey Sharp 2:45

Absolutely.

Philip Pape 2:46

Yeah. And, you know, protein, of course, you call it the

Hunger crushing combo basics

Philip Pape 2:49

king of the satiety hierarchy in your book. I completely agree. And my listeners mostly get, if they're they've heard a few episodes of the podcast, how important it is. But you argue that protein by itself only gets you part way there. And that people are missing, I guess, the whole picture, the other compounds that complete this picture. What is that full formula? What is the secret?

Abbey Sharp 3:09

Yeah. So, I mean, just to give you kind of a little bit of a background on this method that I call the hunger crush and combo method. So, you know, essentially, you know, we know most of those kind of crash diets, any of the diets that we see come up in our feeds every single day, all of them are telling us to cut something out, to restrict something. And you and I both know that our bodies like fight tooth and nail against deprivation with all these different compensatory mechanisms, you know, physiologically and psychologically. And that psychological piece is so important because when we put ourselves in a state of scarcity mentality, it almost always triggers this hyperfixation and obsession and food noise and binging. And then eventually we just throw in the towel because this is just not sustainable. So the hunger crushing combo method flips that script because it's working with our biology and our psychology to focus instead on adding nutrition, not always taking away. This is a really important mindset shift. And so we're specifically going to be adding fiber protein healthy fats. And so if we want to break each one down and why they're so important, you know, protein, as again, many of your listeners may know, you know, there is this kind of collective obsession right now with protein. And I think for for one, good for good reason, but nobody needs like protein candy. But, you know, when it comes to like most of our goals when it comes to weight management or building muscle, you know, A, protein slows digestion. So it's going to keep us fuller longer. It's going to help to stabilize our blood sugar. So we're not riding high, crashing low, looking for another quick fix. It boosts our satiety hormones like GLP1, peptide YY, you know, really important for staying full. Three, it has the highest thermic effect of food, meaning it burns the most calories out of any other food component just to break it down. That's about 20 to 30%. So if you are, let's just say, consuming 100 calories worth of pure protein, you may only actually be kind of utilizing or absorbing 70 to 80 calories of those because it takes so much energy to actually digest and absorb it. And then of course, it builds and supports lean muscle mass preservation because we don't just want to lose weight, we actually want to lose fat. And when you're in a calorie deficit, our proteins are going to be very high to protect that metabolic muscle. So protein is one, two, fiber. Now, fiber is really key because it stretches the stomach because it's volumous, which can activate our fullness signals. It boosts so satiety hormones, it quiets our ghrelin or our hunger hormone. And what's really cool about it is that it has the lowest calorie density out of any other food component, meaning you get to eat a lot of food for not a lot of calories. And it's really cool. I mean, if you just think about that, like you, yeah, you could eat a third of a cup of Ben and Jerry's or you could have 30 cups of spinach, which I do not recommend anybody does. But the the the point I'm trying to make is that there's really cool research showing that the volume of food we consume every single day is actually relatively consistent, even if total calories change. Meaning if you are typically only full when you eat a dinner size plate of food, you are gonna have a hard time duping yourself into feeling full eating a salad plate of food, even if the calories are the same. So the fewer calories we take in in each bite, the fewer calories we consume in a meal across the day over time. And that means basically we're getting the best satiety bang for our caloric buck. Also, fiber nourishes our gut microbiome. And I can speak to this afterwards, but you know, the gut microbiome also affects our weight. So that's the fiber piece. Then there's healthy fats, and this is where people kind of get tripped up because they're like, especially when they're trying to lose weight in a calorie deficit, on a cut, whatever, they're like, well, fats have the most calories out of all food components. That means like I've just got to cut out if it's if it's high in calories, it's gonna be bad for weight loss. No. Healthy fats and fats in general give food staying power and satisfaction. It literally carries flavor and provides the mouthfeel that makes a meal feel complete. Because if you just think have you if you've ever had to try to try to have this a salad with no dressing, no cheese, no nuts, no avocado, like it leaves a little something to be desired. So, you know, fat also triggers the satiety hormones, it slows digestion. But because it is higher in calorie density, my kind of takeaway in the hunger crushing combo method is that we want to choose what I call whole food dual citizen fats. And that means the healthy fats that contain fat, but also contain either protein or fiber. So that could be salmon, for example, has healthy fats, has protein. Or it could be something like, you know, avocado, which has the healthy fats and it has the fiber. So that's how these things are working together: fiber, protein, healthy fats. You know, and generally what I say is one at a meal is essential, two is better, all three is gonna hit like tick all the boxes.

Philip Pape 8:22

Yeah, I think that's awesome. And and I know we didn't even get into secondary effects here on like maybe blood sugar or energy regulation, things like that.

Abbey Sharp 8:30

That's a whole other huge piece.

Philip Pape 8:32

All right. So you mentioned protein candy, and it made me think of like protein water. And I go, if I'm in like Target in the grocery aisle and they'll have high protein bars that have five grams of protein, you're like, Come on, people, what are you doing? Like, I like that they're like thinking about protein, but then it creates this backlash too, where I've heard mainstream podcasts talk about protein as a fad. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. It's just like you're saying here, Abby, it's additive. You're adding protein

Protein hype and marketing traps

Philip Pape 8:56

because it's a sufficiency thing and it's an adequacy thing, let alone satiety and all the other stuff. Whereas restriction is really what happens with fad diets. You cut things out and you eliminate. So just to make that point clear, because you you kind of touched on the obsession with protein, but also that we're adding it into additive nutrition. So kudos. Yeah, yeah.

Abbey Sharp 9:17

Oh, yeah. I mean, that the protein craze thing is getting out of control. And like you said, like it's frustrating for those of us who've been singing the praises of protein all this time. And now suddenly we have everything slapped with a protein label on the shelves. And unfortunately, because marketing is so persuasive and the and these health halos are just so easy to basically overlook any other of the nutrition components of those foods. We have protein cookies that, yeah, might have 15, 16 grams of protein, but people are not turning it around and seeing that that protein cookie is also coming with 450 calories. It's not efficient at all. Right. At the end of the day, like, yeah, they might have a few more grams of protein than the original recipe, but it still has not got basically what I call like a good protein to calorie ratio. And so that's what we're talking about with the Hunger Crush and combo method is getting the best satiety bang for your caloric buck. And let's be real like a protein candy, a protein cookie, a protein, you know, whatever it might be, is a Pop Tart is not a replacement for a chicken breast on your salad.

Philip Pape 10:25

And they don't taste that good either, trust me.

Abbey Sharp 10:27

No, they don't.

Philip Pape 10:28

They don't as something like that. I mean, what did I had today? I made an omelet with leftover chicken thigh, and it's just, oh, you know, just so good. So then the fiber piece, again, that that's a whole that could be a whole episode itself. What I want to target on the fiber, and not just the satiety and the stretching and and all of that. But what about the health benefits or lack thereof in the context of people who think you don't even need fiber?

Abbey Sharp 10:51

I mean, we have plenty of data

Fiber, fullness, and gut health

Abbey Sharp 10:53

that like really colon cancer rates are on the rise. And what is the one of the major reasons for that? Not getting enough fiber. Fiber is so important. It's not just the poop nutrient, right? Like it's this is not just, I know we always think, oh, you need fiber to poop, but we also need fiber to essentially like feed that good, the good bacteria in our gut. And our gut microbiome is associated with the health of every other body system: blood sugar management, hormone regulation, mood, you know, immunity. The list goes on, including our weight. And this is a really interesting area of research that I think I want to kind of tell you a little bit about because you know, I think again, a lot of folks, when they're kind of in the diet space, they just might think, oh, well, calorie is a calorie. Like as long as I'm hitting my macros and I'm hitting my calories, nothing else matters. Fair, calories are king. Let's be clear about that, but they're not everything. And so I think what people have to realize when it comes to that argument is that, you know, the number one determinant of long-term diet retention is appetite management. And what's one thing that fiber does really good? It keeps us full for very few calories. And the interesting thing that that fiber does when it comes to the gut microbiome is that let's say naked, what I call naked carbs or unrefined, like, you know, or sorry, refined kind of low fiber carbohydrates are not necessarily absorbed and digested the same as fiber-rich carbs in the gut. So the calories we get in a day is not based on what the package of the food says or what my fitness pal says it has. It's actually based on how many of those calories we uniquely can absorb from those food. And so when a food is higher in fiber, basically, and also when our gut microbiome is healthier and more vibrant because we are feeding it with fiber, we actually basically absorb fewer calories that we consume. So essentially, naked carbs or sugary carbs or refined carbs are absorbed very rapidly in the upper GI tract. So we actually absorb more of the available calories in those foods. But high fiber carbs travel down to the large intestine where our gut microbes kind of await their feast. And we, if we have a vibrant, healthy gut microbiome, it's gonna gobble up more of those available calories in those foods. So we end up absorbing fewer calories overall. So, in other words, if we consume 100 calories worth of apple juice, for example, which has the fiber strained out of it, or 100 calories worth of a whole apple, we might consume close to the full 100 calories of juice, but hypothetically, we could absorb, let's say, 80 calories worth of the apple. And if you're tracking calories and macros to a T, this, you know, people were not accounting for this. And there's a really interesting metabolic word study where they were carefully measuring the inputs and outputs via poop. And they gave one group a highly processed diet with lots of what I call naked carbs, highly refined carbohydrates, you know, very highly processed foods. And the other group got a calorie-matched diet with high fiber whole foods, exact same calories in, and then they tracked basically how many calories were kind of quote unquote lost in the poop. The high fiber group lost 200 and 400 calories in their poop compared to the low fiber, kind of highly processed diet group who only lost 100 calories. And so this actually can make a real difference, not just in your fullness capacity, so how satiated you feel on your diet, how well your appetite is managed, but even if you were to muscle through the discomfort of feeling hungrier on a lower fiber diet, you're actually just absorbing more of those calories. And so this is one of the unique ways that fiber plays a role in weight management. It's really fascinating.

Philip Pape 14:59

I'm glad you talked about that because both protein and fiber have these unique elements where simply jacking them up to some sufficient, I'm gonna say sufficient. People are way woefully under malnourished on these, can help with all these other things, including your intake, just ad libitum, as they say, right? Just like spontaneously. And the fiber thing's interesting, right? So people listen up because like that is a game changer. And actually, Abby's whole philosophy here is based on the idea of making these simple changes so you don't have to, you don't even have to track macros and calories, although I like I love them as a lagging indicator at least to see what's happening when you do this. For sure.

Abbey Sharp 15:34

Yeah. And there's just such interesting, like, this is exactly that the philosophy is like, how can we make this effortless and intuitive? So that exactly these calorie deficits are essentially happening spontaneously. And there was one study that found that when folks went from a diet of 10 to 15% of their total calories from protein, which is the standard North American diet, when they basically doubled that to be 20 to 30% of their total calories from protein, they saw a three-fold bump in fat loss. And another study that found that going from 15 to 30%, they spontaneously, effortlessly just slashed 400 calories. They weren't even thinking about it. Not even like, oh, I'm on a diet, which again triggers that scarcity mentality. They just did this ad libidin. And then with the fiber, similar kind of outcome, simply adding 14 grams of fiber to their day just naturally slashed 10% of their calories without trying. So this is the magic of thinking about adding, not, oh, I'm on a diet, can't eat this, have to cut this out. It really does make a difference.

Philip Pape 16:38

It does. It does. Okay, so here's the interesting thing. You mentioned psychology and physiology. And I've always thought the interplay between the two is fascinating because there's definitely a bi-directionality going on there. And some people are more affected by one or the other more than others. Like when we look at the weight loss drugs now and you look at food noise, which is something you talk about, you know, you talk about it as this like all-consuming,

Restriction, cravings, and food noise

Philip Pape 17:02

inescapable, debilitating racket in the brain that could only be quieted temporarily with food. But then I believe you go on to connect some of these principles of eating and food choice with the ability to reduce the food noise as opposed to some psychological or genetic or brain-related solution or some exotic thing. Does that make sense?

Abbey Sharp 17:24

Yeah. I mean, the really like when we are in a state of of restriction, just food becomes more salient and more, and so the food noise will ramp up. This is, we have tons of evidence that, you know, one of the biggest predictors of a binge or really over-consuming food is restriction. We put ourselves in that state of scarcity mentality. I can't eat this. Oh, I shouldn't have had that. That food noise is gets louder and louder. And I mean, yes, we do have growing evidence that there are some folks who may just biologically or neurologically experience food noise even when they're not restricting. But again, for the for the average bear who is probably listening to this podcast, that food noise and those incessant food cravings are coming from a history or current state of deprivation.

Philip Pape 18:15

Yeah. Yeah. I think in one of your recent podcasts, you talked specifically about food noise, and you mentioned just the underfueling and the malnutrition and the deprivation and under-eating causes it. And it what's interesting is I could see someone who's gained a lot of weight or is overweight saying, How's that possible when I've been gaining weight all these years? Like, what would you tell somebody in that category? Who has just been consistent gaining weight? The vast majority of people who are obese and maybe consider GOP1 drugs and they have food noise, but and then they hear, oh, it's because you're malnutrition or under eating. And they're like, How's that possible? Because I'm I've been gaining weight. Yeah.

Abbey Sharp 18:52

And you know what? A lot of the times we are gaining weight. And again, like I don't want to pigeonhole people because there are, like I said, a lot of folks that we've now discovered there are some genetic predispositions, some specific, you know, gene pathways that may predispose people to over, you know, overwhelming food noise. Having said that, a lot of folks who are finding themselves kind of gaining weight over the years have been essentially on these kind of crash diets on and off, on and off. And with each kick of the can, you know, chances are we're gonna see a little decline in metabolism each time. And we've probably lost some muscle mass because let's be honest, most of these crash diets are not, they're not like thinking about, oh, I've got to be, you know, go low and slow, I've got to make sure that I'm getting enough protein. They're just like, how do I lose weight as quickly as I possibly can? Once we lose that muscle, very hard to get it back. Muscle burns three times as many calories at rest compared to fat. So our metabolism is going to slow down each time. And so it becomes harder and harder to keep the weight off and basically kind of find a way of eating that is actually something that they can stick to long term. And that's really what I'm trying to shift for folks is getting out of that. Oh, I need to cut out all the things, which let's be honest, most of us cannot stick to again, because that's scarce mentality. And find a way of eating that is sustainable long term. And so that is one of the kind of common pitfalls and cycles that I see people get into and get stuck in. And we're really trying to unlearn that now with this gentle kind of additive framework of the hunger crushing combo.

Philip Pape 20:33

Yeah, thank you for clarifying that. There's a seeming contradiction that isn't really a contradiction when you look at the yo-yo pattern. You look at body fat overshooting, like you said, you're gonna lose muscle, gain fat, lose muscle, gain fat. There's the fact that you probably never even let your body recover out of these diets. Exactly. Like so your metabolism is suppressed and and all of those things. So now if you can shift to the protein and the fiber and the healthy fats, like you said, and then even including the naked carbs for fun, like you said, for to enjoy your food, balance is really important. So, what about those naked carbs? Because there's the people who use the word carbs kind of blanket, right? Carbs, donuts are carbs, pizza is carbs. I'm like, no, those aren't carbs, those are carbs and fats. But even you make a distinction between naked or refined carbs and the high fiber carbs, like you just mentioned. Where is the place for naked carbs?

Abbey Sharp 21:24

Yeah. I think it's really important that, you know, part of the reason for the hunger crush and combo method being so successful for folks is because we are doing away with this kind of black and white, good, bad, like, you know, off the diet, on the diet. It's again, we are getting out of that obsession with food needing to be put into these dichotomous categories as this is a food that I'm allowed to eat. This is not food I'm

Where naked carbs fit

Abbey Sharp 21:49

not allowed to eat. And so, you know, I'll kind of give you a little bit backstory on how this was born. But essentially, when I was in my late teens, I was struggling with an eating disorder or withhrexia, kind of basically clean. Eating taken to an extreme. And as part of my recovery, I was basically putting myself through exposure therapy. And my kind of fear food naked carb was like sugary cereal, like frosted flakes, and you know, lucky charms. Lucky charms. I can name them all. I grew up in a lot of them, right? Like, so if I had them in the house, I was going to just binge that whole box, like in a flash. And then so I started to just allow myself to eat a whole bowl of Lucky Charms by itself, naked carbs in the birthday suit, like and just see how that felt. Very, very quickly, I it kind of lost its allure, it lost its power over me. It was no longer something that I was like, oh, I like, you know, I needed to binge on because I was just like, this is just a normal food. And then I was starting to listen to how my body was responding to that big bowl of naked carbs. I was hungry again soon after, obviously, because A, they're not very, very satiating. My blood sugar was spiking, crashing, and I was looking for another sugary quick fix. So I started to realize, okay, I'm not gonna put the sugary carbs, the cereal on the no-no list again because we know where that landed me. I'm going to dress them up and I'm gonna start with protein. I've got a bowl of Greek yogurt. Okay, protein there. I'm gonna add some fiber, some berries on top. Cool. I'm now gonna add maybe some seeds or some, you know, a little bit of sprinkling of almonds or some hemp parts. That's my healthy fats. Then I'm just gonna add a little handful of the lucky charms on top. So I'm no longer gonna allow myself to get into that state of scarcity mentality, but I'm anchoring those sugary carbs, those naked carbs with the hunger-crushing compounds. That is gonna keep me fuller longer. It's going to stabilize my blood sugar. So I am not riding high, crashing down, and then looking, you know, for a donut basically an hour later. It is going to completely get rid of that food noise and those cravings because I have the sugary food that I like obsessed about basically on my plate already. It's not on the bad foods list. It's not on the off-limits list. I'm eating it regularly. And that alone helps me stick to the plan long term.

Philip Pape 24:10

I love that. So great strategy. I really love that because it's it's flexible, but it's not not only flexible, it's intentionally including the thing, which is important because a lot of people don't talk about that. So, okay, given all of that, a lot of this sounds like food selection and plate construction. What about tracking these things? What are your thoughts on tracking and the different flavors of that? Because there's like calorie counting, there's apps, there's like general awareness. Like, where are you on that spectrum?

Abbey Sharp 24:40

Yeah. Listen, I think like tracking macros or calories, like it's really just one tool in the

Tracking without obsession

Abbey Sharp 24:46

toolbox. And ultimately it can be very helpful for some folks, but it can also be a slippery slope. So I think it's very helpful when it's used more as like a teaching tool to really help you learn what is in your food, like help you build some general awareness to inform your day-to-day meal planning. And also ultimately, it needs to feel like neutral and flexible and not obsessive. So I think it's it's it can be helpful to combine it with like food journaling to help you in a non-judgmentally, like very objective way to collect data on how foods make you feel. So, kind of like what I just spoke about, where I was like basically eating bowls of lucky charms. I didn't track the calories or the macros in that because I just assumed, okay, that's just pure naked carbs. But I was able to very quickly collect data objectively without judgment. And this is the important part without judgment. Okay, I don't feel great when I just eat the lucky charms on its own. So, you know, for example, you could be tracking to see, okay, when I have the bagel and cream cheese and it's only got like 10 grams of protein, maybe I feel a little lethargic after my workout. But when I add in like a Greek yogurt cup on the go, I'm in a rush, I feel better. My recovery feels easier. And actually, with the hunger crushing combo method in the book, I have a very comprehensive kind of cheat sheet of different protein and fiber and healthy, fat-rich foods and they're vert, they're kind of visual portion sizes to help people basically meet some of the meal recommendations that I they share in the book for these kind of macro recommendations. Where I think it becomes more counterintuitive or a slippery slope is when it's overriding your innate body wisdom, just to kind of meet whatever, you know, arbitrary numbers that were spit out by your like My FitnessPal or whatever app you're using. And I know we talked about in a moment ago about like basically the discrepancy in calorie absorption, which could easily affect your just like perfectly calculated calorie deficit that you figured out on your My FitnessPal calculator. But there's all a lot of other reasons why just like these meticulous, inflexible calorie counting can be just wildly inaccurate. So, for example, food manufacturers are legally allowed to be off on their package numbers by 20%. So that means if you think you are eating a 500-calorie meal, you could actually be eating a 600-calorie meal. And over time, this could easily undo the calorie deficit that you just like so perfectly thought you were crafting. So I think that's where things become counterintuitive and counterproductive and not actually helpful when you're going against what your body is telling you, just so that you can, you know, meet the macros on your app.

Philip Pape 27:32

Yeah, that sounds a lot like my thinking has evolved as well over the years, right? Like I still, so I used to do that macros, if if it's your macros, like as a leading indicator, and then realize, hey, you know, this is it's a great lagging indicator. Like you do the things, you listen to your body, your biofeedback, which I love, and there's different types of biofeedback. So we to kind of put it all together, now we have specific populations who listen to this show. And I know in your book you've talked about some slight nudges in different maybe ratios or amounts of these compounds, like for perimenopausal women. What's the logic behind shifting the amounts for people? Like, how would people even know what the right amount is, besides just listening to their body, which might be enough?

Abbey Sharp 28:14

Yeah. And I mean, ultimately, that that is the that is you should be your number one indicator, your body. Because yeah, I can communicate what the data says is best practices, which is what I do in the book, because I believe we I don't censor science and I believe in communicating, you know, evidence-based care. But at the end of the day, like we could be wildly off based on what the data tells us is the best kind of, you know, amount of protein per kilogram of body weight for you to get the best results for you. So I want that to be kind of like top of mind. This is, these are like the guidelines that if you are working with a registered dietitian, that they would start with and then we would tweak based on what we see in terms of what's going on with your results. So I think, you know, just to give you some examples, like weight loss. Okay. This is probably a lot of folks who are trying to specifically lose fat. I always like to kind of clarify that because we don't, I know we kind of just like colloquially we say weight loss, but really we're talking about fat loss because I don't want you to lose your muscle. I don't want you to lose your bone. And losing water is just like whatever, useless, to be honest. It just motivates you for a day and then it's over, and then you feel like you've plateaued. So weight loss, and so you know, when we look at the best practices in the data, it's showing between 1.2 to 1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight when you're in a calorie deficit. And the reason for that, like protein is really just like the the king of this entirety hierarchy. What I like people to focus on when it comes to weight loss mostly is the protein and the fiber piece. Protein because we need to protect metabolic muscle mass when we are in a calorie deficit. Fiber because it offers the best calorie bag for a caloric buck, the lowest calorie density. When it comes to diabetes, often there's also kind of a fat loss element to that as well, right? So, you know, a lot of folks who have diabetes, not all, but a lot of folks are also trying to maintain or manage their weight and prevent excess fat gain because we know that that can play into insulin resistance and blood sugar management. So it can be roughly the same amount, but fiber is really important when it comes to diabetes management because fiber can, you know, of course, slows down the absorption of carbohydrates, helps to reduce the glycemic load of the foods that you're consuming. So I really do urge folks that are managing, you know, insulin resistance, diabetes, PCOS, make sure you're really thinking about fiber because only 10% of North Americans are getting enough fiber, period. Meaning most of the people listening right now are not getting enough fiber. And I don't really want to promote you just eating like fiber bars. For the same reason I don't want to like, yeah, like the same reason I don't want you to like just focus on getting like those like protein enriched snacks, because yeah, and a pinch of fiber bar can be fine, but a lot of the fibers that are being added to these bars are a very bloating, like hella bloating. And they're not going to offer you the whole food matrix of whole food fiber-rich plants, which come packaged with all of these different antioxidants, micronutrients that can support overall health, but also offer variety of different types of fiber to support satiety, blood sugar management, gut health, you know, all of those kinds of benefits. Oh, muscle gain, that's another one. Obviously, with muscle gaining, like there's often an element of fat loss, but you need more calories when you are trying to gain muscle. So while you might have a slightly higher, you know, gram per kilogram for protein, for example, maybe up to 2.2 grams per kilogram, you know, your overall calories are higher. And so you might actually have a smaller percentage of total calories, right? Coming from protein compared to fat loss, because you also need more carbs. You also want to get those carbohydrates in there as well. So, you know, and then fat, of course, can take a bit of a backseat when it comes to muscle gain.

Philip Pape 32:25

So, a couple of really great things we should dial in on. First of all, the the percentage of protein, I always think about that and laugh about it because when you say, hey, increase your protein, people, I can't get that much, right? You've heard women say, I can't get 120 grams of problems. Are you kidding me? Until you do it and you get used to it and you realize it's no big deal. But as a percentage of calories, you're right, it's only 20%. You've gone from 10 to 20. So it's not like a high protein, it's like adequate protein. It really is. It really is. And then when you're in fat loss, it tends to be a much higher percentage of your calories, like 30, 40, even 50, depending. But that's an important point. Now, the fiber types, you said something really important is the types of fiber. So I joked about fiber tortillas because I do occasionally buy these like tortillas because I like tortillas and I might as well get the ones that have extra fiber. But you don't want to rely on that. And like you said, there are not just the types of, or not just the compounds that are in those fruits, many of which aren't on labels, right? You don't see on a nutrition label everything chemically that's in the thing, but also like polyphenols or whatever, but also the types. And we've had some gut experts on like actual scientists, not the influencers, who talk about just like you literally don't need a fiber supplement or any like a seed or one of those types of probiotics either, if you're getting enough different types of different fruits. Like, for example, try to eat different colors and types of apples, different breeds. So you kind of alluded to that. I don't know. Do you talk about that in the book?

Abbey Sharp 33:50

I do. I in detail actually, because that is one of the benefits of the hunger crushing combo method again. Because again, like most of these diets out there, they overcomplicate nutrition, where you now have to think about did I get enough of this micronutrient? Did I get enough of this macro? Did I get a did I cut this food out? Did I cut that food out? No, you're really only thinking about these three things: the fiber protein, healthy fats. And with those foods comes the whole food matrix, including when we are getting a variety of plant-based foods through plant-based proteins and also fiber-rich fruits and vegetables, you know, nuts, seeds, all of the kinds of foods that the Hunger Crush and Camo method promotes, we are going to, by default, get in a variety of different fiber types. And so we need to get a variety of fibers in our diet from different types of foods through, you know, whole grains, through nuts, through seeds, through fruits, through vegetables, different types of fruits, different types of vegetables. All of those have a very unique kind of fingerprint of nutrients. And when we're getting a variety, our gut is going to get a variety. And for our for us to have a vibrant, varied gut microbiome, we need to have a varied diet of these plant-based foods.

Philip Pape 35:11

Okay. So one other thing you mentioned. You mentioned muscle gain, and that got me thinking about just recovery and gaining in general. So one of the micro problems that people experience a lot when trying to recover from all these years of dieting is a fear of weight gain, which implies that they care about the scale, which is the fat loss versus weight loss thing. Like maybe you shouldn't be focusing on the scale. Yep. But, you know, and you also mentioned water is part of your lean mass, right? You've got your organs and your

Rebuilding metabolism through muscle

Philip Pape 35:36

bone and your water and your muscle. So you're going to gain some weight potentially when you go through this process. How do you deal with that problem that people have?

Abbey Sharp 35:44

Yeah, I think that, you know, low and slow is always key here. I mean, Afghan, there's definitely situations where we can't afford to go slow. But I think that being kind to your body and just trust, trusting the process. I know it can be really hard and scary, but know that you are actually trying to rebuild your metabolism, which is going to serve you long term, right? Muscle and bone is so critical to longevity. I know we're we're having this like longevity conversation moment, which is all like situated around peptides and these like supplement stacks. I'm like, babe, longevity comes down to muscle and bone. Lift weights. That is really the longevity secret sauce here. And so, you know, we need to be investing in not just what our body looks like today, but what our body is going to look like and feel like and be able to do most importantly in the long run. And so that is going to take some rebuilding. And yes, you may, you may gain fat in the in wet in the process of trying to, you know, restore your metabolism, restore your stores, your organs and your muscle and bone and and lean lean tissue, but that is going to, you know, do dividends long term for your health. And once you have regained that muscle, which again is going to require you probably needing to eat more calories, like hard stop. You can't really like cheat your way around that. Once you've regained that muscle, that is then going to increase your metabolism. Again, I mentioned earlier it burns three times as many calories at rest compared to fat, which again is going to help with long-term body composition goals.

Philip Pape 37:29

Yep. We need to hammer that message home over and over again. And it's not that we're saying you have to bulk or you have to be in a large surplus. In fact, the evidence has become a little more conservative on that to be able to still gain a ton of muscle, but you do have to be fed and fueled and do all the things you're saying. So, but let's say we do want to go into a a little bit of a bigger surplus. We alluded to it briefly. It's more calories. And I'm guessing that you're going to push us to for more density, more calorie density in some way, perhaps. Maybe more naked carbs or more fats and stuff like that. What are your tactics there?

Abbey Sharp 38:03

Yeah, I mean, and that's the really cool thing about the hunger crushing comma method is that it can be applied to any goal at any time in any stage of life. And so, yeah, when we are in a kind of more kind of bulking situation, we're going to need more carbohydrates for sure, especially compared to the kind of more weight loss or fat loss goals. And so, you know, carbohydrates could be 45 to 65% of total calories. We're going to be bumping up those calories. We're going to be choosing more, you know, perhaps fat-rich protein sources. Protein's going to be important, of course, if we're trying to gain muscle, but we can have more fats, less the tiny bang in some cases for our caloric buck because we need less hunger crushing. Right. A little less hunger crushing. And but we are still utilizing the bones of this framework, knowing that this is the key to getting the best nutrient bang for our caloric buck as well. So, really important that, you know, but my goal is to help people reach their goals in the healthiest, safest way possible. And that's why this method really does work for so many people, because it teaches them the tools for long-term, not just the in like the immediate goal or body kind of composition that they want right now.

Philip Pape 39:23

That's the key. And what I take from that is like it's your scaling up and down and you're shifting between them, between this flexible framework. Dirty bulks, like I did one or two in my life, and they're kind of fun, but you actually do feel it like when you're eating not great food, like you said, your body's telling you, and you have a little more resilience against it because you're gaining, but you also can feel so I like that you said that. Now, there we have the opposite problem in the GLP1 community where the hunger is suppressed chemically, and it often comes through a different mechanism than just, I mean, GLP one is obviously a gut hormone, but it also affects the brain and the food noise aspect of it. And so one of the problems I see is when people want to change their lifestyle and want to eat better, it's hard almost because now they're trying to eat more volume,

Eating well on GLP-1 meds

Philip Pape 40:08

but they can't. And also for some people on GLP1s, they re find processed foods kind of revolting, which I guess is a good thing, but then when they get off of it, a lot of that reverts. So how do you handle that population?

Abbey Sharp 40:22

Yeah. There is unfortunately this thought, like, oh, if I'm on a if as long as I'm on a GLP one, then like nutrition doesn't really matter. But in fact, it actually matters more than ever. And because every bite counts. And this is what I talk about in the book is that, you know, we have to maximize nutrition at a time when our appetite is at its lowest and we're like not interested in food and nutrition, but we have to think harder about it. And the reality is that, you know, GLP ones, while all folks are on it, if you come off, you know, the research shows that, you know, people regain about two-thirds of the weight back. And so we have to learn the skills while we are on these medications. So, you know, this is again where protein becomes king in small, regular, consistent doses. If we're really struggling with our appetite, eating a mountainous salad with like zero calories, it's not gonna get us the nutrients that we need because we actually see malnutrition on these medications, where up to 40% of the weight loss is coming from lean tissue, which is not what we want. And so I think it's really important, again, to think about protein when we're choosing fiber-rich carbs, which is very important, not only for overall gut health, for satiety management, for blood sugar management, but also for dealing with some of the side effects of GLP1s like constipation and bloating. We wanna be choosing those that are offering the best nutrient bang for a caloric bug. So think about avocado, for example, which is gonna get you fiber, but it's also gonna get you some healthy fats, which is very important. We need healthy fats still in our diet for hormonal regulation. Thinking about things like sweet potatoes, for example, which again, we're not pop, we're probably not gonna be able to eat a lot, a big portion, but it's still gonna give us some carbohydrates, some extra nutrients, the calories that we still need to not be malnourished, and also those fiber, the fiber in there. So, you know, I think people like to just assume that, oh, nutrition doesn't matter. I can just live off as few calories as humanly possible and just ride this low appetite so I can drop those, those, that weight fast, it will backfire. And so again, low and slow is actually important here, as long as, you know, work with your doctor, of course. But if you're finding that you physically do not have an appetite to eat, you know, if you're and you're eating 800 calories, you are not gonna meet your nutrient needs hardst. You're not gonna meet your protein needs. And so it might be worth talking to your doctor about, you know, adjusting dosage so that you can still meet those base core needs.

Philip Pape 42:57

And sometimes that's a good problem to have if it's a sign that you are shifting that diet. And of course, you the implication of what you said, you've got to be lifting weights too. I mean, I just almost at this point, it's implied when I talk on this show, but like I forget there's new listeners tuning in. I know. I've 100% like, no, no, you gotta be lifting weights because the 40% you just talked about muscle loss is just because you're not lifting and you're going at this rapid rate of loss. So yeah, it's an interesting one. What about the brain receptors for pleasure reward? And I know there's a lot of stuff that's out, the jury's still out on addiction and those aspects because I had a guy on the show, Jamie Seltzer, he was like almost 700 pounds, he's now under 300 pounds. He did it through GLP ones and lifting weights and changing his nutrition at the same time. But he feels like he will always be on those because of how crazy the food noise was and and like a brain related thing. When we introduce fiber and the variety and protein and all this, is there a correlation with that uh that kind of overrides those signals? The the retrains your brain with the the the receptors for. Pleasure, reward, you know, the dopamine and all that stuff.

Abbey Sharp 44:03

Yeah. So the amazing thing is that these nutrients, I mean, for protein, for example, we have some good evidence showing that it does actually reduce food cravings, for example, later on in the day. You have a protein-rich breakfast, you just actually have less food noise, less food cravings later on in the day. And protein does boost GLP1, which is the hormone that we're talking about, that people are putting into their bodies as a injection. And so, yeah, like there's no one should ever be making a claim that diet is some kind of dupe for a powerful, you know, anti-obesity medication like a GLP1 receptor agonist. However, when we are overlapping these things, especially as we are titrating down, coming off these medications, we need to utilize the power of the hunger crushing combo, fiber protein healthy fats, which do have impacts on our satiety hormones. Certainly not to the degree of a medication, but they absolutely do help. And so that is really critical. These are skills that are critical to learn while you are on these medications. So that as you come off them, these are already habit stacked, as this is the way I eat.

Philip Pape 45:19

I'm glad you called them skills because that's what they are. They take, they take time and effort, but you build them over time and they become skills for life. You know, I get a lot of books from people who come on the show, but this is one of one of my favorites so far because honestly, Abby and I are highly aligned, and I would definitely get the hunger-crushing combo because there's a lot of stuff we didn't cover in here. There's supplements, there's all the specifics about the foods. If you go to the menus in the back or even the lists of foods,

Family food skills that stick

Philip Pape 45:44

it's all the delicious things you want to eat anyway, but it just gives you those ideas. So given that, and given today's context, Abby, is there anything else you want me to ask you or anything I should have asked that you want to bring up before we wrap up?

Abbey Sharp 45:56

Oh, uh, you know what? Like there's a lot of overlapping goals. And the in the book, The Hunger Christian, Calma Method, we have chapters for weight loss, for blood sugar management, for paramenopause and menopause, for sports nutrition goals, and just also like feeding a family and how you can apply this framework for, I'm sure a lot of your listeners are women with kids, and they themselves, who may be on a fat loss or a weight loss or a body recomp journey, are also thinking, okay, how do I raise my kids in a way that's not gonna mess them up in this diet culture ridden world? While I am also trying to make peace with my body or even change my body in some kind of way. And so I do offer a lot of practical advice on that as well, because we are living and breathing in this skinny talk, you know, pro, you know, eat as little as possible era. And it's just gonna become harder and harder to be able to make sense of it all. But this is such a bible that allows people to learn those skills and then also pass those skills on to their kids if they have them.

Philip Pape 46:59

For sure. I mean, you're a hypocrite, I think, just being frank. If you're a parent who doesn't walk the walk and now you want their kids to learn something else because it's not gonna happen. I have a 12-year-old and 14-year-old daughter, you know, and and again, they see everything, they absorb everything. No judgment on people. It's just just take it, you know, take take up the mantle and do what Abby's suggesting and really try to improve yourself in conjunction with your kids. So, Abby, thank you so much for coming on the show. We're gonna point people to the book for sure, but where else do you want them to connect with you?

Abbey Sharp 47:26

Yeah, you can listen to my podcast, Bite Back with Abby Sharp. I've also got a YouTube channel, Abby's Kitchen, and I'm on TikTok and Instagram at Abby's Kitchen as well. So you can find me in all those places.

Philip Pape 47:37

All right, we're gonna throw all that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Abby, for coming on and sharing your wisdom. I had a really good time just reinforcing, but also learning some new things with our audience together today. So thank you, Abby, for coming on. Thank you so much.