Dustin Lambert: 0:00

So cuts and bulks are good at keeping people focused as far as the nutrition and the diet are concerned because you have a short term goal, and you're gonna work really, really hard to get to that and that goal changes a lot. So that keeps people a little bit more focused on on the long term thing.

Philip Pape: 0:19

Welcome to the Wits& Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits& Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we're diving into how to optimize your health and performance with Dustin Lambert. He's a fellow nutrition coach that I met through the Wits & Weights Facebook group and our coaching cert connection with NCI. Dustin is going to share challenges and strategies for fat loss as you get leaner. The pros and cons of bulking and cutting versus main gaining and unique issues to consider when you have a metabolic disorder or autoimmune disease. He will also tell us the optimal protein and sodium intake for strength and hypertrophy, the impact of red meat saturated fat and cardio on health outcomes and performance. And we may even get into things like bloodwork tendinitis, wearable fitness trackers, AI chat bots, like chat, GBT Dustin Lambert is an NCI certified nutrition coach in the Houston area. He's also a strength and conditioning coach. And he specializes in helping people manage metabolic disorders, and autoimmune disease, correct their blood lipid profiles, prevent cardiovascular disease, lose fat and restore health using barbells and periodized nutrition programming. Dustin is also full time husband and father part time hot rod builder and Once a Marine, always a Marine. Alright, Dustin, thanks so much for coming on the show, man. Yeah, thanks for having me on Phillip. Cool. So you and I met through Facebook, you know, I think I invited you to my group, the Wits & Weights community, and you've been super engaged. And we've been chatting back and forth over the months where like, let's just have you on because you're an expert, you've got a lot of cool specialties, I'll say in your coaching approach. Some of it alluded to in the intro. Now we're both certified coaches with NCI, we both love barbell training periodization using data optimizing your health, given all that, okay, but the big question, I want to know, what is your purpose here? What is your purpose as a man and as a coach with all of this? And why is that important to you? Oh,

Dustin Lambert: 2:43

yeah, right out of the gate. Man. So my, my purpose as a man, so going through all of this, and, and starting to help people get healthy, and address these, you know, kind of major medical issues that they're having, has really made me take a step back and kind of appreciate my my family a little bit more. And realize, you know, a lot of the reasons why I started lifting and why I started eating healthier. And getting into all of this was because, you know, I wanted to I wanted to be able to play with my daughter. So I had, you know, my wife and I had my daughter at a little bit of a later age, not too too late. But you know, I'm probably going to be in my five zeros when she graduates high school. So, you know, I want to be around for that I want to be active and I want to be a part of her life I you know, I don't I don't want to be relegated to the to the recliner. So going through all of that has made me take a step back. Remember why I started all of this, and, you know, reevaluate some of the things I'm doing in my life and how I, how I manage my days and and just try and do more things with my family.

Philip Pape: 4:02

Yeah, and I can relate so much to that. I think we're probably similar in age and parenting age as well. My kids just turned 11 At night, and I'm 42. So that puts me in somewhat that ballpark, maybe not quite. But But But I understand, right? Like, it's these these things in life that really matter. And as you get older, it's no longer about the the silly things we pursued in our 20s let's be honest and right and which, you know, you had to pursue as a young guy trying to build things and people and whatnot. But the idea that you're creating a legacy and you want to be physically there, which translates to everything else meant, you know, your mental and emotional health and everything else. So given that to where you are now, how did how did you lead to that over the last, you know, let's say since your 20s or 30s How did you get here?

Dustin Lambert: 4:48

Yeah, so I was I was always really active. I played a lot of sports in high school. I mean, maybe not a lot, but you know, I definitely wasn't not doing something. So it was always active and And when I got out of high school, I went right into the Marines and that's a super active, you know, field to be in. When I left the Marines. I went to school, and learned mechanics and all that stuff. And I kinda let the physical pursuits go. And that just kind of carried on for a while, I met my wife and we got married. And then, you know, one day we both kind of just decided like, Hey, man, we need to, we need to do something. You know, we need to get back in shape. When you start eating, right, we started doing some videos. I don't know if it was Beachbody or something like that. We started something like p90x something. I don't remember. But yeah, so I was doing like rose with the five gallon water jug. And yeah. So we started that. And somewhere along the way, I started listening to a political podcast. And the guy on there kept referencing more crypto starting strength, more grip, Atos starting strength. And so one day, I was like, Man, I'm gonna lift this guy up. So I put it into the old Google thing and picked up some YouTube videos. And I watched the first one. And I heard him talking to think he was on a podcast interview. And he was talking about, you know, everything that's in the starting strength book, and I just kind of like the light bulb went on. And I've always been a really skinny guy. I'm what we in the biz call a hard gainer. So as he started laying out this path, I was like, Ah, this is the information that I've been looking for my whole life. So yeah, so, you know, I got under the squat bar the first the first time and have been doing it for the better part of 10 years now. Yeah, it's been a minute.

Philip Pape: 6:52

Yeah, yeah, man, I mean, Barb, once we will discover the barbells. And I don't care who you are, how old you are, what you've done in the past. I mean, I've seen it with my clients I've seen, you know, women who are 50 have never picked up a barbell, and they're open to it. And they do it. It's like, just everything changes. I mean, it's not just physical, right? It's mental. And, you know, I wonder now that you're now that you're a coach, right? You're applying a lot of these principles and philosophies that you have, including with the barbell training, you know, how do you how do you know that's the right thing to do? And how do you measure the success and impact right? We're NCAA coaches, part of what we learned is, you know, connection based coaching, making an impact. How do you measure that?

Dustin Lambert: 7:30

Man? That's, I think that's, that's one of the hardest things for me is gauging how much impact I'm having in someone's life. I definitely am doing this to make an impact. I, you know, I'm not trying to get rich. So, yeah,

Philip Pape: 7:47

to clear up, man, because Mark, right from

Dustin Lambert: 7:52

Newport that way? Yep. Lots of free coaching going on. Yeah, so how to gauge that, I don't know, I really, I think I try and help my clients. Continually, month to month and quarter to quarter and year to year, I have a lot of long term clients. And I think it, it helps to, to remind them just how far they've come from day one. And so, you know, you're, you're a starting strength guy. So you have the logbooks, I always have people start out with a logbook, or they have the online app that we use, and you know, they're whenever they're feeling hard or down or wondering if this is the right direction, or whatever I say, let's go back to day one. Let's remember where you were.

Philip Pape: 8:42

Good. Yeah, that's, that's the facts, right? That's where you're in know where you are. Which is why which is why we collect data, because, you know, there are people that for whatever reason, chide the, the use of data, whether it's food tracking, or tracking your workouts or what have you. And, you know, I don't know why maybe maybe the inconvenience of it, or because it's uncomfortable or something different, or people don't like data, whatever it is, but once you do, I mean, it pales in comparison to not doing that and what what you fail to achieve when you don't do that. That's just my opinion. So anyway, let's let's jump into the topics. Because I know we wanted to talk about some fun things like you and I lately have been going through fat loss phases in parallel, right? Yeah, yeah. So on yours. Are you done with it yet?

Dustin Lambert: 9:28

I am trying to squeeze out the last remaining bit so I have a cruise. We're going to Mexico at the end of end of the month. So I didn't get my goal. So I'm on a little bit of a break right now. And I'm going to try and squeeze a few more weeks out of it, but excuse me,

Philip Pape: 9:45

all right. Make sure to get that last week or two right to get the smack Yeah, fill it up. So it's funny because so you're you're more of a you know, you're stronger bigger guy than me based on your experience where we are, you know, not comparing, I'm just saying that's a fact. So For me losing losing fat now, was was kind of easy. But I'm also not trying to get to that like sub 10%, or around 10% body fat because I need to go build more mass. But for people who are thinking of losing fat want to lose fat currently trying to lose fat, with all the challenges that breaks, right? And I've talked about a million times on this podcast, we don't have to, like lay out all the challenges. I think the big ones are metabolic adaptation, you know, hunger, loss of strength. But what's your take on this? Why does it become harder? Maybe in the different phases? Right, initially, maybe it's not so hard. But once you get into it, and then as you said, trying to squeeze that last bit? Why did it get so hard? And then how can you keep making progress to finish it up? Yeah, so

Dustin Lambert: 10:43

it gets harder. I mean, simply, it comes down to the metabolic adaptations. And also, as you lose body mass body tissue, it just simply doesn't require as much energy as it did before to go through day to day. So as you as you drop weight, your TDE is gonna go down despite how active you may want to be. So, so that is a continuing challenge. And I really liked the analogy, I can't remember where I heard it from, but weight loss or fat loss is kind of like wringing out a wet towel. And the first time you take that talent, you dunk it under water, and it comes back out, it's fully saturated. The first time you go to get water out of there, it's really easy. And it kind of it just doesn't matter what you do to it, you can twist it, you can spin it around, you can squeegee it between your thumb and your forefinger, and you're gonna get a lot of water out of that thing the first time. And I think that's probably most people's experience with fat loss or weight loss in general. And that can lead people to think that they know more about it than they actually do. But, yeah, so it really does come down to the metabolism and in how that thing, you know how it gets harder and harder and harder, the closer and closer you get to being whatever your goal is.

Philip Pape: 12:05

Yeah, it is it is it. And of course, I'm playing devil's advocate, because I want to I want to hear your take on this as the expert. But is it the is it purely the hunger and the symptoms that come from that when you get further in? So where I'm going with that is you might start at a metabolism of let's say you burn 2500 calories, and so you want to burn, you want to lose a pound a week? So you're 500 calorie deficit, as you're eating 2000 calories? Most people were thinking hearing that or like, Yeah, that's fine. I would love to somebody would love to learn lose fat and 2000 and others are like, Yeah, that's fine. That's normal. And as you adapt, right, your metabolism drops and drops drops. And before long, you're maybe at 16, maybe at 1500, you know, you're starting to push that limit. Is that all is that what it comes down to is just our body is now like starved for resources. And we're also so hungry. Is that the main challenge? Are there other things involved?

Dustin Lambert: 12:56

I think that's probably the main challenge that people fight against, you're definitely going to have some hormonal changes that are happening due to that, which is why we periodized our nutrition is so that we can, you know, have an exit strategy for all of that and come out of it and fix it. But yeah, from from my experience, and, you know, just dealing with this with clients, I think the biggest thing people deal with is hunger. Also the mental aspect of it. So as you, you know, the longer and longer you do it for the more and more plateaus, you start to see, the more challenging the thing becomes, you're not seeing the progress that you were in the beginning, you know, if you have, if you have a lot of weight to lose, you can drop 12 pounds in a week, you know, and you run that for 12 weeks, and now maybe it's two pounds. And that can be quite frustrating, and you don't understand why that's happening. Yeah, so

Philip Pape: 13:53

you mentioned you mentioned multiple plateaus. You know, we use things like diet breaks and other other things to take that mental break, right? Because, like you said, it's mainly mental. We can't trick we can't trick or or over recover our metabolism like it is what it is. So even if you get back to where you were two weeks ago, it's just gonna come right back and adapt. What like what's your some of your favorite go twos when it comes to that? Is it taking diet breaks? Are there other strategies people might try so that they don't just fall off the rails and say, well, this isn't working anymore.

Dustin Lambert: 14:25

I like diet breaks refeeds for some people and so I definitely try and and so if someone is utilizing, tracking, counting calories or macros or whatever, whatever method of restriction we're doing, I don't want them to stop that. Because you don't you don't want to get out of the habit. So we're just taking a break. We're not being we're not on hiatus. We're just kind of, you know, allowing you to get back in the game.

Philip Pape: 14:55

Right? Yeah, it makes sense do so do they still track while taking a break or they also take is a break from tracking? No, they still track wants to break. Yeah, right? That makes sense. And this is a is app maintenance basically by upping the carbs. Is that your your main strategy for that? Or is there another approach?

Dustin Lambert: 15:11

Yeah, so the carbs will come up mostly carbs. It depends on what somebody's craving. So sometimes people are, are, you know, Johnson for, I don't know, whatever chocolate or something like are, well, let's go, we'll go ahead and allow some fat in here. But I generally try and do bump up the carbs. That way, they start feeling a little bit better during their workouts. And they also start maybe seeing and feeling a little bit more pump from the lifting. And that can help adjust their attitude like, oh, no, actually, I'm starting to look pretty good.

Philip Pape: 15:43

Yeah, especially if you drink that large glass of water before they left to right. Well, that's No, it's good that you mentioned not only the diet break itself, but also the the ability to maybe eat some indulgences are some things that you enjoy that you kind of avoid. You've been avoiding, you know, with that discipline, because we like to balance the lifestyle with the discipline, knowing that there's some compromises you have to make and fat loss. But like you said, Hey, if you haven't had that chocolate for four, six or eight weeks, and all of a sudden, you've got a little extra calories, and it is more fat. So what go for it, enjoy it kind of again, that mental side. All right, so you mentioned periodization. One form of periodization, that many people are familiar with is cuts and bolts, right? And some people don't like the terms, but whatever. You know, it's we all understand what we mean, right? Fat Loss versus building muscle. You know, I just finished my diet. So now means ready to build muscle, which I just love that side of it, right? Because it's a lot if you do it, right. It's a lot more of the year than losing fat. So what are you know, but some people say, Well, you shouldn't be switching back and forth. Always Can't you ever just maintain? What are the pros and cons of cuts and bulks versus maintaining or the word you threw in here? Main gaining, which implies like very lean gaining? I mean, what's your thoughts on all of this? Then what do you recommend them?

Dustin Lambert: 16:59

Yeah, so I think as far as recommendations goes, it's going to come down to the individual and kind of maybe how I'm feeling initially, and you know, plans can always change, you can start one direction and somebody's like, I absolutely hate this. Alright, well, let's do it this other way. There's not just one way to do it. Yeah, so some pros and cons. So the the main gaining or I've heard it called gain taining to that can set can be a little bit easier. If you don't really like tracking, you don't really like counting stuff. You're kind of good at maybe limiting or moderating some unhealthier choices in your in your food, or maybe things that don't necessarily get you closer to your goal. And definitely, if you're so I think if you were, you know, starting a a strength training regimen, and you really had a plan to do this for nine months to a year or something like that, then main gaining may be a viable option for you. The pros, you know, those are the pros, the cons, the main gaining is that you really don't see a lot of progress happening very quickly. So So if, if just watching the number on the scale, go up slowly over time, or down. And really focusing on building strength or developing technique and your lifts. Or maybe you're a runner, and you're trying to, you know, go for a 10k or a marathon or something like that. And you're really focused on your athletic performance. That can that can be so I lost my train of thought there.

Philip Pape: 18:52

Yeah, no, no, I get what you're saying. So your your point is you can't you really it doesn't maximize your progress when it comes to building muscle. So, but it could be a good alternative if you have other goals and yeah, maximize your progress. Yeah. So

Dustin Lambert: 19:06

if you're if you're focused on your athletic performance, and not so much, really what you're seeing in the mirror, maintaining can be a good, a good tool to use there. So you're not you're not cutting your see strain yourself too short, doing too much at one time. Yeah. The cuts in the bulks, I think is probably better for somebody who's maybe, you know, two years or three years into their lifting journey. And you're really trying to develop a good physique or you're really trying to get a significant amount of body fat down in a short period of time. So cuts and bulks are good at keeping people focused as far as the nutrition and the diet are concerned because you have a short term goal. And you're going to work really, really hard to get to that. And that goal changes a lot. So that keeps people a little bit more You're focused on on the long term thing.

Philip Pape: 20:03

Yeah, yeah, that's a great, that's a great perspective that, even though we don't want quick fixes for any of this stuff, we want to change our lifestyle, we have the long term, the ultimate goal is our health and all the things that we get for that health, like you mentioned with your kids, and being a father and so on. And that's, that's really what a lot of people want. At the same time. As humans, we have a terrible attention span, right, and we like to have quick wins. So, you know, it sounds like breaking it down to that shorter goal could be a really good motivator, breaking it down to even shorter goals, and that in terms of your habits, all of those things are really good strategies for for doing this, which is gives people hope, because I think a lot of people go through life, they're like, Well, I'm a little heavy on the scale, I'm just gonna need to go on a diet. And it's this, this on off switch, and there's not really any structure or drive to do it the right way. So okay, so the main gaining is good for some in some cases. But if you really want, you know, more efficient results in terms of physique, you may want to be going for a specific short term goal. I want to get into some of the things that make your coaching unique, you talk about metabolic disorders, autoimmune diseases, I have like an undifferentiated mixed connective tissue disease, which is autoimmune disease. And very interestingly, last year, after I had titrated, down a medication I take for that, I started to get swelling in my wrists and ankles, which is symptomatic of people who have rheumatoid arthritis sometimes get that right, and other autoimmune diseases. And man, it was just a huge disruption to my lifting, because you felt like you felt weak, weak in your grip, and in your feet, when everything else was strong. It's very odd thing. So I'm curious for you, what are the unique challenges clients face when trying to achieve fat loss with these kinds of disorders?

Dustin Lambert: 21:50

Yeah, so I can't speak for everybody, but the the clients that I have that kind of tell me about the symptoms, and the challenges and all the things that they're facing. One of the biggest things across everything across all these diseases is the amount of fatigue and muscle soreness that people experience. And I know, you know, Gen pop, we like to say that I'm fatigued or whatever, but this is different it is it is not the general state of tiredness that people are experiencing from crappy jobs and junk sleep. I've I've had several clients tell me that what they are experiencing could be akin to climbing a mountain. So if you were to spend all day, mountain climbing, the amount of physical exhaustion, and just the the bone deep soreness, muscle soreness, joint, achy joints, all that stuff that that you would experience from that, that's what they go through on a daily basis. And sometimes that's lasts for weeks, months even. So that's, that's definitely a big challenge across all of them. That can be extremely challenging to program for as well. So, you know, those are challenges and all of it, you mentioned the medication. So a lot of people are on medications. And a lot of those medications that are addressing one part of their disease or disorder will often make it a little bit increased their risk for some other aspect of it. So like for metabolic syndrome, if somebody has high blood lipids, they might be put on a statin or something like that. And certain things can increase your risk of type two diabetes, which is you know, blood glucose is another part of that, which is kind of a thing you're trying to avoid.

Philip Pape: 23:49

Same thing for the listener, right. metabolic disease being pre diabetes,

Dustin Lambert: 23:53

pre diabetes, yeah. So you know, same thing for for blood pressure, they put on diuretics, or beta blockers, and those can increase your risk of type two diabetes. So sometimes there's a constant management of blood glucose, carbohydrate intake, protein intake. Starting to learn a lot about kronor nutrition. Just yeah, so it can be it can be absolutely nerve racking for for these people. And, you know, my heart just goes out to them every time they have to go through this stuff. So

Philip Pape: 24:31

now, would you say I mean, would you say one of the the biggest challenges is, is on the lifting side with the ability to do certain movements, or is it nutrition or is it kind of it really depends.

Dustin Lambert: 24:42

It kind of really depends. So if somebody's having a soreness or fatigue flare up, then you know, we have to pull back on the lifting and maybe modify whatever it is that they're doing, because they can't You know, I can't bend over today. I can't bend my knees. I can Do whatever you ever experience with your arms. So we may, you know, just have to modify stuff or eliminate lifts or whatever it is they're doing. And then, you know, the nutrition side of that is sometimes we may be in a fat loss phase, or they may have been working really hard to get to a fat loss phase. And then this flare up happens, and I'm kinda like, we're going to have to increase your calories so that you can deal with this. And that can can be a mental mental challenge for them to get through.

Philip Pape: 25:33

Yeah, I bet I hear what you're saying I had a client with ulcerative colitis, same thing you just never know. And it would flare up and people have digestive issues, and people have all sorts of sort of ailments. So it's this is where having a coach can be really helpful. It sounds like because you can walk them through, you probably have a broad base of knowledge of strategies to say push through these or at least get around them so that you don't just give up right? Would you say that? Somewhat the sentiment there? Yeah. So

Dustin Lambert: 26:02

I try to tell everybody, whenever we start a coaching relationship together, the first call will go over all this stuff, and I try to tell them, Listen, I'm not the guy on YouTube, I'm not the guy on the internet, who's going to tell you that we're curing stuff, at best, at best exercise and nutrition at this point in your life is going to be a management tool. And sometimes it's going to feel like we just spent the last three months, you know, spinning our wheels to just trying to prevent you from regressing. And that's exactly what it's going to be.

Philip Pape: 26:36

You know, what, but which, which means the alternative would have been to be sedentary and worse off.

Dustin Lambert: 26:41

Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 26:43

That's important for people to hear. Yes. Like you said, there's no, there's probably no person on the planet that wouldn't benefit from some form of additional movement in some kind, right? Yeah. All right. So let's shift to one of the other topics, we wanted to talk about. Some of the nuts and bolts here, protein, let's, let's talk protein, I always love talking protein. So in the context of strength of hypertrophy, getting big and strong as what we're talking about how much protein is optimal? What are some common myths around the consumption of protein that you've dealt with? Yeah, so

Dustin Lambert: 27:16

how much protein is optimal? So I know we have the magic number of one gram per pound of body weight. And I, I have come to not really like that number very much. So when we look to the science, and what the the studies are actually saying, I haven't seen one single study where that number is mentioned, it's always a range. Yes. And so it can be difficult for people also, to really try and consume that much protein. I mean, you have a you know, I have I have female clients who are five foot two, and 130 pounds, 140 pounds, something like that. And it's, you know, trying to get them to eat 140 pounds of protein, or 100 140 grams of protein per day, is really, really hard for them to do. So I think, I think what the science tells us is that, as far as gaining muscle or strength, we can be as low as point seven grams per pound. So I will often start people there. And as we progress as we move along, definitely as we go into fat loss phases, I'll titrate that number up to something that's very tolerable. So I kind of like, you know, the Christopher Gardner is the Stanford researcher.

Philip Pape: 28:39

Yeah, I've heard him.

Dustin Lambert: 28:41

So he has, people can look him up. But he has a he has a philosophy when he when he does these studies, and he does the low carb versus the high carb and all this stuff, and blah, blah, blah. And so he has a philosophy that I really like to implement, not for everything, but for some stuff, but like this protein, which is limbo, titrate quality. So limbo, meaning how low can can it go? So I'm putting that on myself? How low? Can I start this person on their protein intake to make them successful? How low can we go? Okay, so we'll start that point seven. And then you know, if that's too high, still, I have to lower my standards to meet them where they're at. And then once we meet that limbo, once we meet that lowest amount, then we titrate we start titrating up until we get to the point where I can't take it anymore, I cannot have any more protein. This is this is it, this is what I can do. And then we start focusing on the quality of that protein. Cool.

Unknown: 29:36

My name is Tony from a strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning and that's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to me One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and we'll help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape: 30:20

Yeah, I like that approach. I mean, it's not too different from from what I would do, and we've talked about, but you have that unique perspective with the limbo in that, you know, I tend to just say, hey, let's get let's shoot for the let's let's shoot for the higher number, knowing that it's a stretch goal, and then titrate, to get to that number of kind of keeping that goal in your brain and in your eyes. But I also have seen clients that just struggle, they just struggle, and it's like, what you're saying could be an extremely valuable tool for the practical lifestyle that somebody has, which is what we're trying to do here is work with real people who are trying to get this done. So yeah, if if you're listening, and you don't currently have enough protein, and you know, you need to get more protein, because you listen to Dustin and me and all these other folks. Think about what tool works for you. And if if you know if you're getting point for you want to get toward this point seven at least, and then just work from there. I've had clients the other opposite direction, just this week, I had one of my calls. And she's at like, one point for us just loves protein. But she's in a fat loss phase. And like, I'm having a little trouble with energy. I'm like, it's because it's because you're kind of trading off too much fat and carbs. So let's, let's go the other way, you know, but that's good that you mentioned that the one gram per pound, I agree is like even the guys that stronger by science, everyone else will say that you don't really have to be there. It's just maybe an average a stretch goal. It's an easy rule of thumb, all those things. Yeah, that's, that's good. That you mentioned that now can can people have too much protein?

Dustin Lambert: 31:47

I don't know that you can really have too much protein. I think it's gonna be hard to do. But

Philip Pape: 31:53

like the three, three grams per pound?

Dustin Lambert: 31:55

Yeah. I don't think I would want to be in the same room with that person.

Philip Pape: 32:03

Yeah, depends on where you're getting your protein to. Yeah. All right. So now let's talk let's talk about you mentioned the blood blood lipids preventing heart disease. You know, I know there's always there's always been a little controversy around saturated fats and blood lipids and cholesterol and all these things. Yeah, right. Just a little bit, right. And both are on all directions, right? We said we see especially going through, I was on paleo for I was on paleo. So you can treat these things like their programs. I ate paleo for years. And I was always in that crowd of like, you could eat however much saturated fat you want, you know, the cholesterol is meaningless, you know. And meanwhile, my cholesterol numbers are going up and up. So with with the on ongoing debate we have around red meat, saturated fat, what is their impact on health outcomes? What is their role in strength training, and muscle growth? And then what should people do?

Dustin Lambert: 32:55

Okay, yeah, so maybe let's, we'll start with the pros for, for muscle growth and for athletic performance. So the pros is that red meat, I don't really know about saturated fat. But red meat definitely is a very nutrient dense food has a lot of good stuff in there a lot of stuff that you need, and depending on the individual, you may need to consume more of it, you may need to consume less of it. But as far as building muscle goes, I don't think there is you know that that kind of seems to be the undisputed champion other than whey protein. In the in the lifting world. The saturated fat

Philip Pape: 33:38

before we go there, you mentioned Okay, some people need more, some people less are we talking about like an iron deficiency or something like

Dustin Lambert: 33:44

that? Yeah. Yeah. So So iron deficiency, would it be one? B 12. So if you if you have a more vegetarian style of a diet and you are not focusing on the B 12, you're not, you know, that's just something not people are not tracking. Adding a little more protein in there may be something that I recommend to those individuals.

Philip Pape: 34:09

So, or they could just start eating red meat. So vegetarians who listen Yeah, it's great if I just started eating red meat and

Dustin Lambert: 34:16

on unbridled amounts of red meat. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 34:25

Yeah. Okay, sorry. So then saturated fat. Yeah, so saturated

Dustin Lambert: 34:30

fat. Now, the saturated fat I really don't know about the, you know, nutrient density that versus other fats. But from just an anecdotal perspective, a saturated fat is associated with central adiposity. So fat around your midsection. And for me, I know that when I was much heavier, and my trunk circumference was bigger, I felt more stable, lifting heavier loads. So as my as my waist size has gone down, you know, even if I can lift the same amount, squat or deadlift or overhead press or whatever it is, I definitely don't feel as stable. And I don't feel like I can brace into my belt as much. So just anecdotally, you know, I think that's that for the saturated fat. And then for saturated fat always is going to come with the red meat. And so, again, anecdotally, I think there is just something about feeling more energetic and feeling better. So when we look to low carb communities, paleo and keto and carnivore, not stuff, that seems to be one of the the most common traits that people associate with red meat is just feeling better, having a little bit more energy. So you know, I definitely think there may be something to that,

Philip Pape: 35:56

you know, wow, you just you just gave, you just gave me a revelation, and maybe the listeners as well. So you said that, like all these low carb diets that are also high in animal products, and fats, you know, I'm feeling great. I'm all of a sudden low carb, and I'm feeling great and may not be the last the reduction in carbs so much as the increase in some of these nutritious sources of fat and other energy. And, and actually the same client that I suggested reduced protein and increased fat just a few days ago is like, Hey, I felt like I had more energy. Yeah, there you go. So it's and you say it's anecdotal, but I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's studies to back it up. We'll make that claim, and then we'll have to go find internet. There you go. So, actually, or chat, GBT, you know, we're gonna get to that later. Actually, it's been a great tool for that kind of research. Yeah. What about oh, yeah, so red meat saturated fat. What about sodium? Right? There's another one. I actually just heard the guys on mind pump talk, talking about it again. Now. You know, it's always been a thing with sodium and blood pressure, people get too much. And yet many of us especially we eat more whole foods, I think don't get nearly enough. And there's some research that shows that like, one fast food meal has as much sodium as a whole week's worth of Whole Foods, you know, so it's so lopsided from that perspective. Also, sodium is electrolyte, at least from my perspective, that's a great thing. I tell people to salt their water and things like that. So let's just settle here. Now, Dustin. Right, so the world knows what to do. If you're a recreational lifter, what what's sodium? How much to to get?

Dustin Lambert: 37:24

Okay. Yes. So most of my day is spent trying to help people reduce the amount of sodium that they're in taking. And I've done a little bit of research into this for just the general gym goer. Okay. So a lot of the a lot of the recommendations that we're receiving in the recreational lifting community and you know, the recreational athlete community is coming from social media influencers and other internet forms of information. And they are communicating science to us, that just doesn't apply to us. So the sodium recommendations for sport are for people who are generally like, we're talking about high level athletes here. We're talking marathon runners, professional athletes, the one level college athletes, that's what all of these recommendations have been based on. So most people aren't even aware of how much salt or sodium they're taking in, despite using tracking apps, that's just not something people are tracking. So high levels of sodium can cause some numerous health issues. Okay. And when we start hearing these, hearing these recommendations, also combined with the fact that people have no idea how much they're taking in how much salt they're taking in, it can lead them to start assaulting food that is already too salty. And that's going to that's kind of put you into the danger zone for a lot of these for a lot of these health issues. So some of those things are hypertension, I actually develop Yeah, I think I developed a salt sensitivity due to the severity issue here. So I was I was of the crowd did just salt, salt on me. I need salt because I need that that intramuscular fluid that intercellular volumization I gotta have this. Yeah, I It's touted as some, you know, major performance enhancer to I don't think that I don't think that that's really the case. So the average person if you start assaulting your food, you're taking in too much sodium and too much salt, you may develop hypertension, even if you don't so there are people who are salt sensitive there are people are not salt sensitive, and you might start taking in a lot of salt and not see any issues with your blood pressure. But that does not mean that you are escaping the effects of this. Because as you take in salt, that salt is going to draw in water. And the reason people's blood pressure gets high is because the volume of blood is now higher. So even though your your arteries and your veins have the capability to expand with this increased volume, your heart is pumping a larger volume. Okay. So your heart has to work harder.

Philip Pape: 40:32

Yeah. So okay, so maybe I partially stand corrected. But what about people who have quote unquote, clean up their diet? Or let's just say they've they've transitioned, maybe they've worked with you and have shifted to mostly, you know, 80 90% Whole Foods and maybe the other 10 or 20%? is processed foods? Are they? Do they not have to worry about it at that point? Are they still potentially over assaulting those of people who need to add salt? Like, what's your take on that? Yeah, so

Dustin Lambert: 40:58

my, my stance on the salt is, you know, the Limbo, Limbo titrate quality. So, from what I understand, I may be wrong. But the obligate amount of sodium for the human body is 500 milligrams a day. Okay? Okay. It's not two or three grams, like it is not two or three grams, that is a quarter, that is a quarter of a teaspoon. Now, the recommendations that we get from places like the USDA, the American Heart Association, all those other places can be a whole other topic. But those recommendations are generally to try and get an entire population to consume less sodium. Not that that is the optimal amount of sodium. Sure. Okay. So I really think the, the lower you can get your sodium, the better off you're going to be. Yeah, so for most people, if you if you just try and meet the guidelines, which is 2300 milligrams per day, I personally liked the American Heart Association's guideline, which is 1500 milligrams or less per day. I think that most people if you've cleaned up your diet, and and you're doing all the right things that that's going to be more than enough sodium for you to worry about. You don't need to worry about how much is lost in sweat. 95 to 98% of the sodium that you lose is actually done through your urine, not your sweat.

Philip Pape: 42:24

Okay? Okay, this is really good to know because I'm gonna start looking at my salt and asking clients maybe to track a little bit because I feel like I get three grams a day or something like that of salt easily every day. So Now granted, I'm eating more right now than I was. That's it. Okay, good to know, man. See, so I learned something every time somebody says alright, let's let's Is there anything else about bloodwork you wanted to cover? We can get into training? Yeah, I don't know we can get in training. Alright, so I, we alluded to a little bit about what we talked about the autoimmune issues, but also, people do a lot of people deal with tendinopathy of some kind, like this is extremely common for overtraining, overuse, overreach, bad form. Whatever, you know, I personally, years ago had a really terrible squat rack grip, which is a very common thing, right? Going. When I was doing starting strength, learning the low bar had to meet with coach, the coach helped me fix everything, actually. What's his name? Cody, Nino here in Connecticut. And if you know me starting strength coach, I'll be fixed that. And then the tendinitis went away after I rehab it. So anyway, so we recently chat about this when I talked about my multi grip bar for my shoulder, right, like online. We were talking about that. And that's an equipment change. But what are some strategies you use with clients when it comes to tendinitis recovery, and continuing to make progress?

Dustin Lambert: 43:46

Yeah, so definitely equipment change, definitely some changes in the the actual lifts that we're doing. It really depends on where the tendinopathy is, and kind of what is is usually making it hurt or making it worse. So normally, it is something like the squat or the benchpress. Lots and lots of biceps tendinitis and golfer's elbow, tenor, tennis, elbow, all that stuff. So what I like to do for those cases, is really reduced the frequency of the main lifts, so the number of times per week that you're exposed to that main lift, and especially if it's, if it's something like squat, so whenever I squat, My shoulder hurts, but nothing else does. We're definitely going to reduce the frequency of that per week. And if you're I, usually we'll go about half. So if you're squatting three times a week, we'll reduce that to one and a half times per week.

Philip Pape: 44:54

Same intensity, same rep set of reps.

Dustin Lambert: 44:57

Yep, same intensity same reps games. We He won't change the change the program at all. If I do change the program, it normally will be like a, we'll go from a three day program to a four day program, but we lift three days a week. Cool.

Philip Pape: 45:13

All right. Yeah, no, that's good to know. Is you said golfers elbow that that's what I had before. What does that medial epicondylitis? Alright, and maybe tennis elbow, some people get on the outside shoulder issues? Are those pretty common?

Dustin Lambert: 45:27

Yep, the shoulder issues are very common. So some people will will have it in the front. And that's usually biceps tendinitis. And then if you're experiencing in the back, that can often be a rotator cuff issue.

Philip Pape: 45:39

Yeah. Okay. So yeah, definitely working with someone but it sounds like you don't it's not you shouldn't just rest and stop altogether. I mean, maybe stress period. Yeah. Gotta keep use it. Right.

Dustin Lambert: 45:48

Yeah, you should, you should not rest and stop. Yeah,

Philip Pape: 45:51

it's good advice. Well, what about cardio? So we're flying through. I like that. So we're flying through a bunch of topics. This is cool. You know, cardio, sometimes contentious, you know, there's all sorts of extreme again, media, social media people, you know, what's his name? Omar Yusuf, you know, with, he has that company where he sells clothes and actually have some of his graphic tees. One of them is cardio kills, and it has like a, it has like a person's skeleton with their flesh coming off as they write run on a treadmill. Yeah, you know, the alluding to like the interference effect, which we I think we know is a little bit less terrible than we thought it was. So there's the different types of cardio, there's walking, there's high intensity, there's low and medium intensity, how much to do whether it interferes with lifting, whether you adapt to it, you know, things like that. So how does cardio what what is your general philosophy for how people should treat cardio if their preference is building muscle and size? And strength?

Dustin Lambert: 46:49

Yeah, so my, my philosophy is that, you need to just do your damn cardio. So how much of what is going to depend on the person? So I know that when I was a big fat powerlifter, I really, I really didn't want to do much cardio. I didn't, I didn't even do a whole lot of walking. Yeah. So but you know, if we're all in this to improve our health. And a little bit of cardio is not going to decrease that. I also noticed that with myself and with my clients, your lifting performance doesn't suffer, as long as you're not going overboard with stuff. So I like your your recommendation, which is half the amount of time of lifting for cardio. I think that's pretty good.

Philip Pape: 47:44

For Mike Matthews, by the way,

Dustin Lambert: 47:46

did you okay, it sounded familiar. I was like, that's good. I think I've heard it, but that's good. I like it. Yeah, so half the amount of time we're lifting. And if you're gonna do something high intensity, so I have had clients who really enjoy boot camp stuff, you know, we might, we might even bring that down to a quarter of the time of lifting. Because that, you know, why to it too much high intensity stuff is gonna wipe you out. But I think if you're just walking, I really, really enjoy walking. Or you're doing some zone to training, which is like you're on the elliptical or the treadmill or a bike or something. And you're working at a pace where you can hold a conversation the entire time, not as easily as we are here. But you wouldn't, you wouldn't struggle to have a conversation. I think it's perfectly fine.

Philip Pape: 48:34

Oh, that's what we should be doing is walking into

Dustin Lambert: 48:36

treadmills and walking on a treadmill. Yes, yes.

Philip Pape: 48:40

I'm probably a little behind right now. Cool. All right. So it's all it's all very reasonable stuff. I mean, we're basically aligned on all this stuff. And I'm glad that listeners is getting the reinforcement of these. These principles. A lot of it is just it's like you said, just do your cardio, meaning we don't have to live in extremes. Or think that one thing is going to just totally destroy something else. Like listen to your body. Do the things you enjoy. If you like to play sports, play sports, you're trying to be healthy if you have a very, very specific goal. Sure, you may have to like compromise and make trade offs but we're talking general health. So speaking of that, like wearables come into that conversation as well. I'm a techie I have an Apple Watch, I have an aura ring. And I do like them for for steps and heart rate. And that's pretty much it. Plus all the other fun stuff. So Fitbit Apple Watch ordering all those. How can people get the most out of those in your opinion.

Dustin Lambert: 49:32

He also the way to utilize wearable trackers is not to rely on the precision of them. So there's a difference between precision and accuracy. So the precision is how close to the actual number of steps they're able to calculate for the day and then the accuracy is how often or how close of a repeatable measure they can get. So they may wearable trackers are just not that precise. I do a lot of testing for my clients. And I wear a bunch of different stuff. So I have an Apple Watch, that is pretty much all the time. And I base everything else off of the Apple Watch, because that seems to be kind of the most consistent thing. So I recently wore a Amazon Halo. And the amount of steps, the difference between the amount of steps per day between the two of them was almost 6000 steps. Okay, well, however, that being said, they were both very, very consistent, and being 6000 steps off per day. So if you're utilizing these to, to track your steps, or track your your calorie expenditure per workout, or maybe your heart rate or anything like that, don't rely on the actual number that this thing is given to you. But just like our weight is we're looking for trends over time. Sure. Good.

Philip Pape: 51:02

Yeah. That's that's a good way to put it precision versus accuracy. I've seen the same when it comes to like body fat percentage, you really can't rely on any of those devices. Yeah. Yeah, but the trend is not bad if you do it repeatedly over time at the same conditions. Yeah.

Dustin Lambert: 51:19

Even DEXA. Yeah, even other than MRI, or saw, autopsy. Everything is wrong.

Philip Pape: 51:29

It's true. It's true. People need to know that. And especially they need to know it, because I don't want you. I don't want you getting super excited when that data says something. And conversely, super depressed when it says something when both could be completely wrong.

Dustin Lambert: 51:42

Yeah. Oh, no, on the Amazon Halo, so the app that that it comes with actually has a really, really good body fat estimator. So it actually uses the camera on your phone, and you stand in front of cameras, he set it up on a tripod or on the table or something. And it will actually take pictures of you front side back and give you an estimate of your body fat score. And it seems to be you know, pretty close to even the Navy standard, or even body calipers. It's really, really accurate. Wow,

Philip Pape: 52:17

I could see why that might be when you use that high resolution camera combined with AI, maybe you could see those same measurements you'd be taking with, with with tape. But But wow, that's cool. I didn't know that. I'm gonna look at it. That's pretty cool.

Dustin Lambert: 52:31

That's that's the one thing I like about it everything else? Because it

Philip Pape: 52:35

doesn't require the halo though, because it almost sounds like you just do that with a camera and feed it into their software somehow.

Dustin Lambert: 52:40

Yeah, he could probably just download the app and just do it with the camera.

Philip Pape: 52:44

I don't know what it requires the halo. I'm gonna look into that. Man. That could be a cool tool. Yeah,

Dustin Lambert: 52:48

it's very cool. I stopped taping myself. Okay,

Philip Pape: 52:51

okay, that could be a game changer, man. Thanks. That's good. Hey, thank you, selfishly to me. A bunch of people aren't listening to this, but people listening to it. You're gonna love it, too. So, Joe, we I know we have a couple minutes left. I do have a hard stop at three. You may as well. But the AI stuff. I mean, what's your take on that? You know that there's a lot of discussions going on about are we going to stop thinking, you know, when we use these things, it's just going to do all our workforce. Like what's your take on how do we how we use things like chat GBT and Bing and Bard and all this stuff.

Dustin Lambert: 53:23

Yeah. So right now I'm loving chat, GBT, I think a lot of the information that it's given me is is sound and is actually it's helping me bypass the normal channels where people would usually go to get information on nutrition and health and all that stuff. And actually, I'm getting to the scientists and to the research. And you're not getting it secondhand from somebody at on. And so I think that people out there can really utilize chat GBT, if you're just starting out into this, and you are kind of listening to a lot of different takes on stuff like the saturated fat. Just start asking the question, anytime somebody makes a claim of something. Just ask, is that true? And you can go to Chad GPT, you can pose a question. And a lot of the answers that I get from Chechi Beatty are very, very good. They're not black and white, yes or no, they have a lot of nuance to them. You can also ask it to cite your sources. So you can go and look for yourself. Maybe you find something on a topic that's very long, maybe you find a study, you can actually click the web address, copy the web address, posted into the chat GBT bar and ask it to summarize this for you. And it does, it does a fairly decent job at summaries. It will tend to summarize one aspect instead of the whole thing that totality of it. So people have to keep that in mind. And you can

Philip Pape: 54:53

tell it to do it like Mr. T.

Dustin Lambert: 54:55

You can tell to do like Mr. T or Snoop Dogg

Philip Pape: 55:00

It's pretty cool. Yeah, I um, listen, I mean, when it comes to technology and tools, I'm a techie always have been with an engineering background and technology is always going to lead to amazing new things and terrible new things. It's just always will, right. And so the good in the world and those of us who want to do good and you know and make an impact, we can try to leverage those to the best of our ability to maximize that. I agree. So, okay, I want to ask you this. I ask all guests, if you've been listening my show at all, I think you know, what questions is coming was coming? What question did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Dustin Lambert: 55:36

Who played the best Batman and why is it Ben Affleck?

Philip Pape: 55:40

Very specific question. That's a leading question, though. It's a leading question. Wow. Because my wife would disagree. She would say it's who was from his Michael Keaton was the original in the early 90s.

Dustin Lambert: 55:51

So yes, but that is a different question. Who is Batman? Michael Keaton, as is Batman, especially, who plays the best Batman who's Batman was the best. I think it's Ben Affleck. Because that is the Batman that is closely more closely related to the DC comic than anything else. That's the Batman who's dropping people off of roofs, and changing them up to the radiator and, you know, burning them with an iron in the shape of a bat to interrogate them to get information. So I really liked his Batman. But yeah, like,

Philip Pape: 56:24

what about Christian bill? Christian is pretty brutal.

Dustin Lambert: 56:27

His his was good. I mean, I like it, but I feel like his Batman is more of a Robin, not Batman, because it's kind of like it's kind of acrobatic, and he's a little bit on the smaller side. Ben Affleck is a big dude. Yeah, and so like, you know, the things that would a real Batman would have to like, he'd have to be that big. You know what I mean? You know, speaking

Philip Pape: 56:50

of big what's, what's the show they made one season is reacher, the new reacher that came out last year. Yeah, that guy's physique. Yeah. Impressive. I mean, he's, I think he's naturally kind of the proportion seem natural to me. And he says he is but you know how these things go, right. Yeah. It policies like six, four. So that helps. Yeah, that's all are you does? I'm 510 510. All right. So we're about the same. We're about the same height. I have a little ways to go on the side. So all right, cool. Great, man. So where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Dustin Lambert: 57:21

Yeah, so I am basically only on Facebook because I am just not a big social media person. So they can find me there and message me and they have any questions. I'm happy to answer

Philip Pape: 57:34

that your personal profile doesn't Yes. We'll link that in the show notes. And awesome as well. This has been a fun conversation. We covered a lot of different topics and you're awesome, you know, your expertise shine through the listener, I'm sure he's gonna get a ton of value from what you just heard me have to listen to it again with everything we covered. So thank you again for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum. Call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best