Philip Pape: 0:01

Should you eat low-carb or high-carb? Keto says carbs are poison. Paleo says grains are the enemy. The bioenergetic and pro-metabolic camps insist that carbs are essential, even fruit juice. This leaves you wondering what the heck should I actually eat? Today, we are exposing why the obsession with carbs misses the bigger picture. You'll discover the nuances behind popular diets, learn how to critically evaluate those nutrition claims and find an approach that works for you and your unique body and goals. This episode will clear up any confusion regarding carbs so you can breathe a sigh of relief, enjoy your food and focus on what actually matters for your health and physique.

Philip Pape: 0:51

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling a topic that has caused probably more confusion than almost any other the great carbohydrate debate, aka carb wars the phantom menace. I just had to do it, guys. I received a really good question from a long-time listener, chris H. She knows who she is and it really captures the frustration that many people feel when trying to navigate conflicting nutritional advice in general. Chris wrote in about feeling torn between opposing camps the low-carb keto approach versus the pro-metabolic bioenergetic approach. And she said and I'm paraphrasing here, quote this dichotomy has bothered me for years. I've oscillated between the two philosophies and basically gotten nowhere. In fact, it can be a dangerous place because I can end up high carb and high fat at the same time. So I think many of you can relate to Chris's struggle. I can as well, from my personal experience, and today we're going to break down why these contradictory viewpoints exist, how to critically evaluate claims and, I think, most importantly, how to find an approach that actually works for you. That's what we're here for. And, of course, if you want to get a head start on finding the exact personalized approach to nutrition that works with your body, download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide using the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free so many of these episodes. I love to put together a guide, or use one of my existing guides and give it to you, because I think it is a great companion to the show. So, again, click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free to get my Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide.

Philip Pape: 2:36

All right, let's start by setting the landscape, laying out that landscape of the philosophies that Chris specifically mentions, because we can spend three hours talking about all sorts of diets. There are a million of them. They're infinite permutations, but she mentioned a few in particular that we'll just go there and we'll evaluate them and we'll talk about the principles of evaluating them. First we have the keto low carb camp and this camp, which I'm very familiar with because I was in it for years, claims that carbs are essentially poison. I know an actual poison it's called alcohol but they claim carbs are poison, causing blood sugar spikes and insulin resistance. Instead, they promote high fat intake, moderate protein and often cases traditional keto is actually low protein and then very minimal carbs. We're talking sub 100 grams, if not much lower than that, even when you're not dieting and honestly, they don't even distinguish necessarily dieting phases. It's just eat. This way you're going to lose weight, and they often demonize fruit, starchy vegetables and grains.

Philip Pape: 3:40

Then we have the paleo approach and again raising my hand, because I did paleo for years while I was doing CrossFit and it focuses on foods that our ancestors supposedly ate. So you eliminate grains, legumes and usually dairy for the pure paleo. There's always modifications. It definitely allows for some more carbs than keto, right In the form of the whole foods that are included, but it's still relatively low carb, naturally.

Philip Pape: 4:06

Then we have the pro-metabolic and bioenergetic camp, based on the work of Ray Peet. Now, I want to give a caveat here, because I had a gentleman on who talked about the bioenergetic way of eating and it was really more of just a flexible approach that's aligned with giving you a lot of energy, and that is not what I'm talking about, and that's why I'm not mentioning his name, because I don't want to call him out and tie him to this. This is a camp that views carbs like even fruit sugars, which I love fruit and I love the sugar that's from fruit, and they call that the stuff of life, and so they promote high carb intake, including fruit juice, and then they avoid PUFAs and they avoid most, I think, above-ground vegetables. There's always these interesting idiosyncrasies.

Philip Pape: 4:51

Now, at first glance, all of these seem like completely different diets, completely at odds, but if you lay them on top of each other, you're going to find a few areas where they agree, and so I want to highlight three of the I'll call positive areas that they agree first, and then three of the drawbacks or limitations. So, as far as the positives. All of them emphasize whole unprocessed foods Great, love it. All of them generally hate anything manufactured like industrial seed oils. Okay, that's when I start to have a little bit of pushback on, because you're starting to restrict, right. And then all of them generally recognize the importance of food quality, whether they come to it from an ancestral lens or some other lens. And then there are three. Let's just be nice and call them limitations.

Philip Pape: 5:33

And the first big one, as I've always talked about from the beginning of the show very early on, is they are highly restrictive in nature. All of these diets eliminate entire food groups or entire macronutrients, and then that makes them very difficult to sustain long-term. That is the key problem. If you're using it for a quick fix, it might make sense, but we don't want to eat that way. And the other thing is you may have nutritional deficiencies if you don't very carefully plan for that and really get obsessive about combining all the foods in the right way. The second big limitation and we know this from the research is the potential for disordered eating. Any strict rules and any kind of food fears or fear-mongering promoted by these diets can and likely will foster some sort of unhealthy relationship with food and eating.

Philip Pape: 6:23

So I posted something in threads the other day that said I'm enjoying my chemically laden I think. It was like oatmeal, peanut butter, eggs and banana for breakfast. I was being sarcastic. And then I gave a list of all the chemicals in bananas because, guess what? All food is chemical. That's what it is. It's organic, we eat it and therefore it's made of compounds. These are chemicals. And so I think somebody replied and said oh don't, you know, bananas have been genetically modified for years, so even those are blah, blah, blah. And I'm like dude, you just proved my point.

Philip Pape: 6:51

Like the fear mongering out there about you know what's in food, even even what we think of as natural foods, cause people to get so neurotic and just outright scared to death about food, even like real food, like fruit. It's insane. So that's the second one. And then the third one is the lack of flexibility, which I guess you can tie to the first one about food restriction. But what I'm talking about here is that these approaches don't account for you, for your individual things that you like, your preferences, cultural foods, social situations, and so they're even more challenging to adhere to in real life settings. And then you become the weird person saying you can't eat this, can't eat this, can't eat this, can't eat this. Life is miserable. We don't want life to be miserable. I'm sorry. You don't have to be miserable to hit your goals and have the best body composition ever and be happy.

Philip Pape: 7:38

So these limitations highlight why focusing solely on a macro like carbs, or adhering strictly to a named diet with very rigid rules misses the bigger picture of overall health. A healthy dietary pattern, sustainable and flexible nutrition that you can actually stick with still meet your goals. So why is there this big divide on carbs then? Because I still want to address the carb issue for Chris, and I think this gets to the heart of why focusing solely on carbs misses the point. So breaking it down.

Philip Pape: 8:11

Number one the individual variability. I mentioned this before. Our genetic makeup, our gut, microbiome, activity levels and health status all influence how we respond to different foods, and so what works for one person just may not work for the other. And that goes for things that do sometimes get demonized, like I've heard people influencers demonizing broccoli, which on its face, is silly, until you find out there are some people that have a bad reaction to broccoli and then you're like, okay, cool, it's not good for them. But to make generalized statements is where the problem is when it comes to how individualized we are. Number two context matters always.

Philip Pape: 8:51

Ketogenic diet might be beneficial for someone with certain neurological conditions. We know it's great for people with epilepsy. It might be beneficial for someone who just really hates all carbs, which I don't know. If that person exists, but you know, if you claim to be, I would love to hear it, not claim to be. I didn't mean to gaslight you out there if you hate carbs, but I haven't met the person. I'm going to lose some followers with that, maybe, but I think they're the people that wouldn't be following the show anyway. But even though it can be beneficial for some and you can lose weight and you can XYZ, and it can give you some results, it doesn't mean it's optimal for everyone. That's it right. Any one diet or a strategy I use with a client is great for that client and may not be great for almost any other client. Same thing for you when you're evaluating an approach, coming up with a personalized approach. So, similarly, a moderate to high carb diet, which I'm a huge fan of. For people who care about performance, endurance, strength, being athletic, building muscle, right, it's great for all those people. But it could be problematic for someone with, I don't know, insulin resistance, right? Who's diabetic, for example? Not that people who are diabetic like type 1 diabetes not that they can't eat carbs. But you don't necessarily want to just slam right into a high carb diet, especially when you're not accounting for the timing of when those carbs are eaten, whether macros are in balance, whether they're active, whether they're lifting weights, et cetera, right, so, yeah, a low carb diet could be indicated for someone.

Philip Pape: 10:14

The third thing here is that these things get freaking, oversimplified, right, nutrition is nuanced, and I say that knowing that on this show, I try to simplify is nuanced, and I say that knowing that on this show, I try to simplify, but I try not to oversimplify it. I may do it, okay, I admit it, we're all humans. But I'm talking about like statements carbs are bad or carbs are essential, right, and I know I did a muscle or a muscle. I did an episode called more carbs, more muscle. And, effectively, if I had summed it up in one sentence, I would have said carbs are essential, but I didn't say that. That's the point, I didn't just say it that way. I said, let's get into all the details about why this could be helpful in this context. And so these oversimplifications ignore again the vast differences between, say, types of carbs, how they interact with other nutrients, with individual physiology, with your meal timing, with what the heck you're doing on a daily basis Are you lifting weights or not?

Philip Pape: 11:10

And then the fourth thing here is cherry picking evidence, and we're all guilty of this. I've done it myself, and I realize that if I'm trying to answer a question and then I have a hypothesis in my head, and then I go to try to find studies that support the hypothesis, ah, I've just broken the chain and gone down the cherry picking route. It's very hard as a human being, right? There are logical fallacies that come up all the time in our heads and when we interact, and any camp can point to studies supporting their views. But science is about the totality of evidence, the strength, the proportion of the evidence, the recency of it, in some cases, not any one single study. So how do we navigate this without you having to become an expert in reading studies?

Philip Pape: 11:51

And so I'm going to give you a few strategies that I learned when I did my PhD, which, by the way, is not in nutrition science. It was in organization and management, with a specialization in leadership that's a mouthful In talking to experts on the show, in talking to fellow coaches, in talking to other researchers. Here are some strategies. If I were to sum it up in this episode, the first one is be skeptical of just about everything, but especially the oversimplified, absolutist claims A nutrient is always bad or this is the key to health for everyone. That is a red flag.

Philip Pape: 12:26

Number two consider the source. Is the person giving advice qualified to do so? Not necessarily a piece of paper or credential, but some sort of verifiable expertise, time in the trenches, experience, whatever. And do they have conflicts of interest? Are they selling you something? All of us coaches are selling something. The thing is to do it in an authentic way that completely aligns, where what you're selling also provides the benefit that you're delivering on and you're not selling something else. And then bait and switch into the reality of it. And then, number three, look for the nuance we talked about things being in context to be nuanced. Any good advice and this is why I like podcasts instead of reels and short form, which I do those things, I do, those things, I do them, but that's where I get all the trolls, because they don't have the full picture, and so on this show, I can go on and on and on, and if you don't like my voice you can just stop or unfollow. And so good advice acknowledges complexity, it acknowledges individuality and differences between people.

Jenny: 13:30

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement for all of our health. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 14:16

The last thing here is to focus on I'll call it, the fundamentals or the principles. You know, despite all these debates, there is broad agreement on some universal things, like eating mostly whole foods is better than eating a bunch of ultra processed foods. Like eating fruits and vegetables caveat, some people think fruits are bad still, but I think that's ridiculous. But again, maybe that's me giving an absolutist claim. So fair point. But I think people agree vegetables, at least very few. Well, maybe the carnivore people say that oh man, you see what kind of trap you can get into. On this, adequate protein, I hope, is maybe broad agreement. It definitely the science supports it. So there might be people saying that you can live a long life on low protein, based on some inadequate rat studies. I did a whole episode on that nonsense. And then you know, staying hydrated, right, like simple things like that, universal things as well as energy balance and the value of muscle mass and so on. So there's overlap, but we have to be careful on the corners. And then, of course, I want you to experiment and listen to your body, because guess what the best evidence is? Your evidence N equals one sample size of one right. Does the way you're eating. Does your diet help you feel great, perform well, get those reps in the gym, recover without feeling massively sore, getting the sleep you want right? Do you achieve your health goals eating the way you're eating, and can you do that the rest of your life? Eat that way.

Philip Pape: 15:39

Now I've gone on so many tangents, but I think it's worthwhile here to do that because I feel strongly about this. This is the philosophy of this whole show and how we work with clients, and I want to address some specific points from Chris's question. So, chris, hopefully you're still listening. The first one is carbs for menopausal women, because she gave me a lot more detail in her email that I didn't share, but she mentioned that her doctor said menopausal women don't need carbs. This is like the new carb myth that needs to die. It's not just that carbs are bad, but somehow, once you hit menopause, or even sometimes pre-menopause, carbs are bad for you in that context. So it's not, oh, we love carbs, unless you're a menopausal woman. This is another nonsense, oversimplification, because hormonal changes sure, they affect your metabolism, they affect your belly fat, they affect everything. Great, carbs still play the same role, they still do the same thing. They still give you energy. They can help regulate your mood. Sometimes they help with those hormones, they're great for gut health, they're great for energy performance, and on and on and on.

Philip Pape: 16:40

Now you're going to find that I do have a carb bias in this episode, even though I said carbs aren't the issue. The way I'm going to defend that is to suggest that I think cutting out carbs is the problem when done indiscriminately, whereas including carbs at some level and having a balanced approach seems more reasonable to me. It doesn't mean you have to be high carb, is my point. Carbs are still playing an important role. You don't have to cut them out, and so the quality might matter, adjusting the quantity based on what you actually need, like if you're in a dieting phase, if you're in a calorie deficit, you're not going to need that many carbs, nor do you want that many, because you need a lot of protein, you need enough fat and your calories are low. So, guess what? The carbs end up being 150, 100, in some cases, 50 grams. Guess what? Now we're kind of in keto territory, not because keto is so hot, but because that's what the data is telling we need right now.

Philip Pape: 17:29

The second one you mentioned was keto for weight loss. So, yes, keto can help you lose weight, because what it does is it cuts out so many foods and you're eating almost all whole foods that you can't possibly eat enough to even be at maintenance calories relative to how you were eating before, so you're going to lose weight. It's still the fundamental principle of energy balance for weight loss and that can be achieved on any diet. It can be achieved on an all-pizza diet. It's not the best way to go, just like keto is not the best way to go. How about a balanced approach that you enjoy that works for you? I think that's all I need to say on that one.

Philip Pape: 18:05

Then we have fruit and fruit juice. The demonization of fruit. That is unfounded. Okay, there is no evidence to support that. So when people talk about that, it's ridiculous. Whole fruits are one of the best foods we have, and I can't tell you how many clients that I've met who that is the thing that they haven't been eating. And as soon as I say, well, why don't we just have some fruit? They're like my God, yeah, you're right, and a lot of them. Yeah, I know you say we should eat fruit. I've just been demonizing it for years. But whole fruits provide fiber, vitamins, a bunch of compounds that you don't even see on the nutrition label. They fill you up, they hydrate you, they're sweet and delicious, so they're great for sweet cravings. You know what I'm trying to say.

Philip Pape: 18:44

Now, fruit juice specifically. This is the weird one about one of those diets that say you should drink a bunch of fruit juice. I mean, it's just a more concentrated version of the fruit in terms of the sugars and super calorie dense, and you're eliminating a whole bunch of the good stuff in the fruit, like the fiber, and in some cases you know the pectins or you know different compounds in skin. If you're getting rid of the skin, depending on what fruit we're talking about, does that mean you have to eliminate fruit juice? Of course not. If you want to enjoy it in moderation, go for it. You know what we did for our kids. They didn't have fruit juice until they were quite a bit older. When they were young, they mainly had water and milk and things like that, but we just watered it down significantly, and if you don't get used to having that high level of sugar, then it's cool. And I noticed that there are name brands of fruit juice that are sold now, especially the ones marketed at kids that actually do have much lower sugar concentration. So it's simple, things like that.

Philip Pape: 19:39

Now, if someone's claiming that you should drink fruit juice and you should drink it like pure full-on calorie dense, that's kind of what I have a problem with, because again it's saying that there's this magic thing, this thing you have to do. But if you just enjoy it and it fits in your plan and it gives you energy and it works with your carbs and calorie macros, I mean fruit juice could be a great pre and post workout, why not? Then we get to vegetables. Okay, both above ground and below ground vegetables are highly nutritional. I don't know why you have to discriminate against one or the other, unless you have specific issues with those specific digestive issues, specific allergies. There's no reason to avoid leafy greens or cruciferous veggies, I don't know.

Philip Pape: 20:17

Just, I shake my head at some of this stuff. Do you get the message, the big message here? So if you're listening to this podcast and you're like low carb all the way, intermittent fasting all the way, something like that, and I'm making you mad, I want you to lean into that anger and ask yourself why that makes you mad. What is it that you're taking personal that I'm offending in you, because the reframe, the flip on that is maybe, just maybe, I have more options at my disposal for a healthy diet than I thought and that's empowering, and maybe, just maybe, I should experiment with that and not let other people tell me what my body can handle. Let me figure that out, all right. So I do want to cap this episode off on why I love carbs for certain contexts, because it is kind of a carb episode and I agree, carbs are not the problem, right, it's all the other things that I mentioned. But for those curious, especially those looking to build muscle and improve performance, moderate to high carb intake can be incredibly beneficial, and I wanted to say that to assuage your fears of carbs, if you've been beaten down by the message that carbs are bad somehow. So I just want to break down the evidence of can carbs be beneficial for certain people, of course.

Philip Pape: 21:29

Number one muscle growth. The first one is related to muscle growth. Research shows clearly that, for example, bodybuilders in a caloric surplus will gain significantly more lean mass on a moderate to high carb diet when compared to a lower keto diet period. They've done this over and over again and it's clear as much as like five times the increase. We're talking about trained bodybuilders, not even just newbies. Okay, so that's muscle growth. Then we have performance Carbohydrate, which is tied with glycogen, glucose right Enhances your both endurance and also the available intensity in high intensity exercise, and I don't just mean cardio, I actually mean lifting weights. You can experiment this for yourself Train fasted, don't have any carbs for dinner the night before, and then work out in the morning.

Philip Pape: 22:11

Then, a couple of days later, have dinner that has carbs and then have carbs for your pre-workout, like, really load up on carbs. See if there's a difference. If you tell me, hey, I didn't notice a difference or I did better fasted, then heck, there's your data. Like train fast, that's fine, that's cool, I have no problem with it. Number three and, by the way, you know, people are going to see this video on YouTube and I'm going to get some troll comments and it will be people that didn't listen to this point.

Philip Pape: 22:35

Number three is recovery. Carbs play a crucial role in post-training recovery. So I just talked about eating beforehand as a pre-workout, but after you work out, it replenishes the muscle glycogen. It enhances muscle protein synthesis when combined with protein, because carbs are anti-catabolic, that means they prevent breakdown of muscle tissue. That is so powerful. That's such a great reason to latch on to how carbs might be helpful if you're not getting as many carbs right now.

Philip Pape: 23:01

Number four is hormone function. We don't talk about that a lot, but adequate carb intake has been shown to support, for example, thyroid function and leptin levels, which then regulates your metabolism and your appetite. Oh, are you saying that higher carbs may actually help my metabolism and make me fuller? Because I heard that carbs. You know you get so hungry when you eat carbs. Well, yeah, maybe when you eat pizza and donuts, but I don't know about you.

Philip Pape: 23:30

If I eat like vegetables and potatoes and you know brown rice, I mean they're pretty darn filling for as little calories as they have. Tastes good too, and they mix well with stuff. And then regulating your metabolism as well, I mean that's awesome. So when the menopausal woman on low carb thing comes up, question it. Then we have gut health, which I'm becoming more and more aware and a fan of discussing, because the best way to improve your gut microbiome is fiber, having a lot of fiber, have a lot diversity of fiber, and guess where fiber is? It's in carb-rich foods. So kind of opening your ability to eat fruit and vegetables and starches or not starches grains, so I mean you can tolerate them, especially whole grains. All of those have tons of fiber. There you go. Now you support your gut health as well.

Philip Pape: 24:22

Then we have things like satiety and adherence to your diet, because now fiber, which is in carb sources, also increases your feelings of fullness, potentially improving long-term adherence to your diet. Long-term, you know, happiness that I don't have to be miserable while I'm on my diet. And the last thing about carbs is cognitive function. So, interestingly, here and the keto people aren't going to like this one either. Actually, when I did paleo, I remember learning this the brain is the biggest hog for glucose, right? We know this. The brain preferentially uses glucose for fuel and that could impact your cognitive performance, your mood, and the argument goes well. But it only needs so much and your body can produce it. Therefore, because carbs are not essential, you don't need to consume them. You're good to go. I don't know about you. I don't want to be at the bare minimum Like. I want to flood my body with what it needs and then some so that I can perform. Take care of that brain and then take care of the muscles. Take care of the body. Eat the amount of carbs you need is what it comes down to. Carbs aren't inherently good or bad, right, they are a tool that, when used appropriately, can support your health, your performance, your physique goals. So, as we wrap up, let's recap, as always, the main points. Number one the debate over carbs misses the big picture of diet quality and individual needs. Number two be wary, always be wary of claims, claims, claims, absolutist claims, oversimplified claims. People that are in the grocery store fear-mongering over the ingredients on a package, because the truth is usually a lot more nuanced. Number three consider context and personal factors when you evaluate advice, and we're talking about you yourself, your own context. Number four focus on fundamentals, like whole foods, getting enough protein and fiber. You can just start there. You don't even have to track your food. Number five experiment, experiment, experiment. Find what works. Add the carbs in, take the carbs out, see what happens. And the last thing is prioritize always sustainability over anything short-term. If you think with sustainability in mind, you'll also get the short-term result probably more efficiently and quickly, and you'll be able to keep going that way for the rest of your life.

Philip Pape: 26:37

Okay, so this was a passionate one for me, because nutrition should not be a source of stress or anxiety, like if you're getting angry on social media and trolling, and like posting comments about why this diet is better than this. That's stressful, Like I feel bad for you. I think nutrition is a positive thing that should support your health, that should support your performance and the enjoyment of life, and you should enjoy food. And if your current approach isn't doing that, it's okay to make changes. And I want to thank Chris again for inspiring this episode because her question was very thoughtful, very detailed and if you're struggling with similar confusion nutrition confusion even someone like her who, by the way, listens to the show, she's very well educated, she knows what the heck she's talking about and, if anything, she is a victim, like I am, of being so curious that you can overthink things because of the massive amount of information. So if you're struggling with something like that, I hope today's episode has given you some clarity and tools to move forward. I hope it hasn't added to the confusion.

Philip Pape: 27:41

But one way to simplify it is go to get my nutrition guide, because it's very simple and it's not that long my nutrition 101 for body composition guide. Use the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free and in that guide you're going to learn the basics of macros, how to master your macros and the calories for the different phases fat loss, muscle gain, health. How to structure your workout nutrition, your meal timing for performance and recovery, and then just the overall philosophy of sustainability and, you know, not depriving yourself or cutting out the foods you love. Again, that's it. Click the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free to download a copy of my Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting some weights, and remember, when it comes to nutrition, the best approach and the amount of carbs is the one that works for you. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.