Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's say you've been obsessing over every gram of food, spending hours analyzing your physique in the mirror and even saying no to social plans because they might derail your diet, and you found yourself constantly anxious about food and exercise, even feeling trapped by the number on the scale. If so, this episode's for you. Today, we're going to explore how to build an aesthetic physique without destroying your mental health. As I sit down with IFBB bikini pro and mental health advocate, lauren Conlon, we discuss the overlooked psychological costs of pursuing the perfect body, you'll discover how to break free from food-related anxiety, avoid obsessive behaviors and build an integrated approach to fitness that puts your well-being above all else. If you've been feeling trapped by rigid dieting or struggling with body image issues even if you've made progress, this episode will show you what you might be missing for a sustainable physique that you're mentally proud of. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:09

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm sitting down with the incredible Lauren Conlin to explore that fine line between building an aesthetic physique and maintaining mental health. Lauren is the host of the LocoFit Show podcast, owner of Redefine Healthy Brands and an IFBB bikini pro. She has a master's in exercise science and is currently pursuing another master's in clinical mental health counseling. Lauren has the practical and the academic experience where fitness and mental health overlap. Today you'll learn about the mental costs of constantly striving for an aesthetic ideal, especially in physique, sports and Instagram fitness culture. Lauren is going to help us understand challenges like food-related anxiety, disordered eating behaviors and obsessive tendencies that can develop when aesthetics are prioritized over well-being. And stick around, because toward the end of the episode, lauren will give you some first steps to finding a mentally healthier approach to your physique development.

Philip Pape: 2:08

Now, this has been recorded after we attempted to record three times and, due to tech issues, we finally got it right. So you're going to notice a few things at the beginning One that I am looking way up at above the camera if you're watching the video, which I corrected shortly later on, and then a few times where we joke about the fact that we had to re-record a few times and Lauren was awesome. I think you're going to love this episode regardless, so bear with us with the tech issues and dive right in and enjoy the show. Lauren, it's so great to have you. Welcome to the show.

Laurin Conlin: 2:38

I'm so happy to be here. And third time's the charm. We have had two tech issues.

Philip Pape: 2:44

Exactly Two tech issues. We're practicing our acting chops here.

Laurin Conlin: 2:47

Yeah, yeah, exactly, and really wanted to get warmed up for you guys and just really dive right into it. But no, thank you so much for having me on. I really really appreciate it and I'm super excited to dive into these topics.

Philip Pape: 2:57

Yeah, I'm excited too, because mental health is sometimes overlooked, often overlooked. There's such a spectrum of in dieting whether we're talking about macros or intuitive eating or the whole spectrum disordered behaviors and people doing things for an extreme or for a look or to go on Instagram or whatever. And you've had experience across that spectrum. Right, You've been a bikini pro, dieting down and going through all of that, and you've also been a coach who advocates for mental health and now you're going for that master's in mental health. So tell us a little bit about what took you to this point where mental health is so important, and then we can kind of dive in to help people understand it a little more.

Laurin Conlin: 3:37

Yeah, for sure, and it truly is one of those things where I feel like, even just 10 years ago, right, and that's always like my reference point, I don't know why, but 10 years ago, this magical time, whatever, yeah, 2014, yeah, yeah, seven and a half years ago, no, but like 10 years ago, like you were to say, mental health it would still not as popular as it is now.

Laurin Conlin: 3:58

Right, like now, like if I were talking to someone and I could say, hey, like I'm starting to notice some patterns or I'm starting to see X, y, z, and even just talking to people that I knew personally, right, having a therapist or going to therapy was not as common as it is now. Now I work with people who have either had a coach or a therapist or both, usually, like before they even get to me, right, so, like, the space is just very different and so I don't think that it's not quite as stigmatized. There are certainly certain populations where it is still more stigmatized than others. I don't want to make a blanket statement like that, but what's also happened in my mind is that a lot of people are like mental health is important, and then the conversation stops Like, okay, yay, everybody's aware now that it's important, but we're now just saying these things that really don't really mean a lot, because there's not any action or any help. Yeah, what do we do?

Philip Pape: 4:50

about it yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 4:51

Yeah, what are we going to do? Okay, yay, we know it's important. Okay, so now, what? Now what starts? What happens, you know, and that's really where I think not only the space in general needs to kind of pick that up, and therapists on the ground are certainly doing that right. It's not like they're not, I just think in societal sense, you know, we need to also understand, like, yeah, going to therapy is actually a lot of work and it's really important and we need to give people that time to do that.

Laurin Conlin: 5:15

And really, why I started to go down this path was so, back in 2014, I started my December 2nd 2014. Kidding, do your diary. I started my master's with Dr Bill Campbell's lab at USF and I wanted to do research on how different types of diets affect weight loss and weight regain. So I started looking at Because this was of personal interest to me as a coach and also as an athlete. I was competing at the time and so I was like you know, I'm seeing these things with myself, seeing these things with the same clients what's going on. This was also when ifom was very, very popular and starting to like really kick off, like in the space. Also when instagram was really like taking off for like fitness culture. So a lot of things were happening like all at once and it was absolutely one of those like right place, right time kind of moments. And thankfully I had dr campbell who was so gracious to be like sure, you can run this whole study. This sounds crazy, but go do it.

Laurin Conlin: 6:01

And so we did this 22-week study of a diet phase, of looking at a meal plan versus macros for a diet phase and then a post-diet follow-up, which was of utmost importance to me to look at does how we diet affect not just weight loss but weight regain? Because I was seeing that most of the issues were coming not from a diet but from the post-diet period with individuals. So we ran that study, we had some good findings and then really over the next few years I would say that I was able to continue to help people like learn about things, like tracking macros and being more flexible with that and kind of moving away from that like really really rigid mindset of like the meal plans and the really bad diet plans that were so rife that time, and especially with competitors. And what was interesting was that not just competitors were being put on these plans but like people who were reaching out to these big teams, like I want to look like this person. We're being put on the like three noodles and two prunes, you know meal plan bullshit. And I'm like this person isn't competing. You know what are they eating this? So we were coming out of that field like that space.

Laurin Conlin: 7:05

But then things started to change and then I started to notice that people really started having issues Like tracking was no longer the issue. They were able to understand that and do that. They learned this new technique, but now they couldn't stop, or now they didn't know what to do when they couldn't. Interesting, like well, this is really interesting because this is kind of the inverse of what I thought. But wow, this actually looks a lot like what I thought was rigid dieting, but this is supposed to be flexible. So then the whole construct kind of fell apart again and I was like all right, I need to start to figure out what is actually going on. And that's when I really realized that how we view food has nothing to do with the actual plan. It has to do with our mindset. Right, some plans inherently do have more flexibility than others, but our mindset around said plan is really what is flexible or rigid. And so this is kind of what really kicked off a lot of what I started to share in the space.

Laurin Conlin: 7:56

And again, this was at a time where now for a while, ifom was this kind of anti-movement to like the bro space, right, right, right, and really had to fight against all of that. But then it kind of got assimilated and everybody was like, yeah, yeah, tracking macros is the answer for everybody. Oh, my gosh. And then it was like hold on, no, that's not appropriate for everybody. You know what I mean. And then I started getting pushback for talking about let's not do this, like, let's add in more flexibility. And now it's like if you want to track anything now you have a disorder problem.

Laurin Conlin: 8:27

And it's like whoa, how, in the span of my 11 plus year career, have we seen all these evolutions? And it really is truly crazy and what it ultimately is doing is that it's just really not taking into consideration where is the client and where is the individual? How do we coach to them? Because I can't sit here and say one client is better than the other. It has to do with the client and where they're at. And that's really what my study taught me and also just working with a ton of people has taught me, but I think that we really lack that nuance in the space, especially right now. Good, oh my God, and it's just like horrible right now in the you know you mentioned, like the Instagram fitness culture, right? I mean that has completely changed everything and just the way information is disseminated is so different and how people perceive things and the clickbait and what you know is being driven to do well on social media is just really making a mockery of what people actually need.

Philip Pape: 9:20

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there that I want to touch on. First, you mentioned how the conversation has shifted and this is a really good time in history to really take it to that level you're talking about. I was thinking we just watched the Olympics a short while ago the whole Simone Biles discussion about when she left in the last Olympics for mental health reasons, and even then it was a little bit taboo. It was a little bit taboo. And you go further back than that, right, and you look at anything from the 90s, for example, and you're like, wow, anything that's at all just getting into the realm of it's up here. The issues up here is how was highly stigmatized, you know. So that has shifted.

Philip Pape: 9:56

And then, like you said, the macros approach and the intuitive eating and it's like these camps whether you get down to the obvious camps like the keto versus bioenergetic versus this, none of those things are. The problem is what you're saying, like how it's communicated might be, but let's, I guess let's help people understand why. Like, what is the root cause going on here? You said individualization. We understand that. That's almost like the, I'll say, maybe part of the solution. How do we get back to understanding where this all comes from. Maybe we could do it by looking at how someone has gone through a journey and has harmed their mental health in pursuit of like a physical or the perfect body.

Laurin Conlin: 10:35

Well, I think, first and foremost and this is not to fault any one person, because we all fall into this camp we want easy answers. We want direct answers, right Like when we are dealing or struggling with a problem. I have this issue, I want it solved. Someone explains this to me in a way that seems really, really easy. They don't maybe know that that sounds too good to be true. It just sounds great. So why would they not go for that?

Laurin Conlin: 10:59

When you hear a lot of people who are more science communicators oftentimes there's a lot of nuance they say they take 10 minutes to answer something. They say a lot of words and everybody gets kind of annoyed by that, right. And then you have people who come up and they say hey, eat this, don't eat that. Oh, my gosh, simplifies it for me. Well, that's too simple. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that certain foods are not maybe better in larger quantities or smaller quantities than others. Of course they are, but it's just not ever as simple as saying do this, don't do that, and what that ultimately does is then, you know, some person will say oh, this one thing is really bad, and that's where we get into those camp you said, like the keto camp or the vegan camp or the carnivore camp. Then we get the camps and it's like then people are more confused than ever and they feel even farther away from their solution or their goal than ever. And when people feel too far away from something, they're less likely to actually start to engage in it. If the goal is too easy, people don't wanna engage because they're like this isn't really much different than what I have or what I'm doing, not really interested. If it's too far away their goal pursuit, they just are not very interested in doing that because it feels so large and looming. And that's not to say that we can't have large goals, but we need to have something that is hey, this is a little bit of a stretch for me right now, but it's not so far away from what I have that I can't foresee myself doing this. That's the big picture. But, like, how can I actually overcome this current hurdle and barrier right now?

Laurin Conlin: 12:25

Well, I think that, like, just largely, it's that human desire to have things be concrete and direct. And I also think that it's just a byproduct currently of just like our society and our world we have so much information at all times that people are getting so overwhelmed and people are just tired. Like, life is just hard. There's a lot of things at us all the time. People are busier than ever, and I don't think this is not a fault for anyone, right? Like, I totally understand where people are coming from. Like, I think of myself in other fields, right, financial stuff. I don't love learning about that, not really my jam to understand that kind of stuff, right? So if someone paints it really clearly and really easily for me, well, okay, that sounds pretty good to me, right, but then I have to go. Okay, is that the right answer? And thankfully, I have people in my life who help with that nuance, right, but not everybody has that.

Laurin Conlin: 13:14

So, when it comes to nutrition, when someone is trying to overcome a lifetime of, maybe, poor eating habits and poor mindset around food, they hear someone say, hey, don't eat oats, they're bad for you, but make sure that you eat all of this. Oh, okay, well, I just won't eat oatmeal anymore. Now, I'm healthy. And it's not because they don't want to take the time to look into it, it's just because that's what's there and that's what seems right.

Laurin Conlin: 13:35

So that's where we get the confusion. One person says oats are good, one person says oats are bad, another person says they're going to give you cancer, another person says eat in moderation. And then you're like well, what is happening? So I think that that's really where a lot of the current confusion is. And then, in terms of like people's food and like their view and mental health, in terms of seeking kind of you know, different physiques, right, I think that there are, well to go, a lot of different ways. So I'm like is there a specific direction you want me to go with that? Do we want to talk, maybe on like competitors or lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 14:09

Yeah, you know what? Why don't we do this? Because you mentioned, people have a lifetime of eating habits and mindset around food and I'm like maybe we start there because a lot of this does start with your childhood and how you're raised and how I mean I think I've heard you talk about as young as eight years old having dieting, restricting with your food, and I have daughters that are 10 and 12. And that's like a super important thing I need to be aware of. My wife talks about when she was young, being shamed for, you know, being a little bit heavier at a certain age. I mean, do you mind sharing maybe what you remember from that age personally, but also how common it is? Is it for those behaviors to start that young and how that leads to this? That where we are today?

Laurin Conlin: 14:47

For sure, and I don't want to overstep any, I guess, boundaries in terms of research, so I'm not super familiar with like ages and all that kind of things, like I don't want to say anything in that, but I'll share my experience and also, just, you know, working with a lot of families, especially moms, so I did start to have, you know, restrictive behaviors around eating very young, and this was not due to my parents. They were not saying, oh, you're this, they were giving no supplemental messages to that. So I want to make sure that that's clear. They were not doing that, thankfully. But it was one of these just internalized things that I felt that I was bigger than other people that were around me, which was actually false, which is the hilarious part of how our minds can work sometimes. Right, I was probably an average size in comparison to my friend groups, but I only looked at the people who were smaller and said I'm bigger, so I need to be smaller, right? You know how that works and it was just one of those things where I'm someone who is have a little bit more obsessive behaviors around things. I get very hyper, fixated on things, and so it was a also kind of became a game of like, let me just eat less and oh, I got smaller. Okay, cool, you know it's not a tape measure. Oh, I got smaller. Okay, let me try this again and let me do more. And then let me add in like activity and let me just like run Cause I like running, cause I did like, let me run a lot and let me do a bunch of sit-ups. Then it becomes like I can't leave the house until I do this many sit-ups. I can't eat unless I have this many water bottles I can't like. It became these weird rituals that I developed which is very common for a lot of people who struggle with this. So it was kind of a combination of things for me and you know, at the time it was a few years that it got pretty bad.

Laurin Conlin: 16:21

But then you know, my family my family, you know went to dietitians, went to a therapist. To be honest, I don't really remember a lot of those situations. I can kind of have a vague memory of the lady's office, but I don't really remember, and just remember the one thing the dietitian was asking about, you know, fruits and vegetables that I eat and whatever. And I remember telling her there was this yogurt that I would eat that, you know, and like the yogurts have, like the old yogurts had like the little pieces of fruit, I was like, yeah, I have that in there. And she was like that doesn't count. And I just remember that being like a funny thing. But like now I like think back on but I just, I mean, I became so obsessed. I still to this day know food labels, like I can't remember what I did yesterday, but I know food labels that I haven't eaten in years, you know.

Laurin Conlin: 16:58

So it just became this very interesting thing, thing for me and thankfully I was able to get help and move past that and view food in a healthy way.

Laurin Conlin: 17:06

But it was once I decided, hey, I want to do bodybuilding. I was only a few years removed from being anorexic and also having this exercise kind of bullshit, which I wasn't necessarily diagnosed with but definitely qualified, and I was like, no, no, no, I'm not starving myself, I have to still have some muscles, I can't just not eat at all. And everybody was like, okay, kind of a little worried, but it actually, you know, it definitely, more definitely had its periods, right, it's had its up and down moments, but it never restarted those, never restarted any kind of anorexic tendencies for me, thankfully. But there are a lot of people who get into competitive physique sports who have had a history of eating disorders or disordered eating, I mean the. The prevalence of that is, and I don't know the exact stat off the top of my head, but it is a very, very high number of individuals and it makes sense who's drawn to these types of things, right?

Philip Pape: 17:54

Is it because they're already doing it and or it just aligns with what they're doing, like to some extreme?

Laurin Conlin: 18:00

It kind of a lot of people and and the thing, eating disorders are tough because they are very misunderstood by a lot of people and it's really hard to really classify everyone and say everybody here, this who falls under, like this got it, there's nuance, like so, so tough, like why is someone dealing with this? Right? And I would say that in my experience and maybe this will change but at this current moment, september 20th, I truthfully believe that most eating disorders are stemming from non-food related issues and a lot of people are using food in a way, and for some people it is control, right. You always hear oh, anorexics are, you know, they have a lot of control issues and they're perfectionists and they have all these tendencies. There's another theory that it could be well. They are also typically very conscientious and have a higher level of disgust, sensitivity and disgust towards themselves. So a lot of times it's people who are really struggling internally, who don't know how to express that. So they turn to controlling their own environment and just trying to get smaller and smaller and smaller. And then you know there's also, of course, binge eating disorder and bulimia and a lot of times that is.

Laurin Conlin: 19:10

You know, I've worked with people who they've had that and you know they're working with me now not in an active phase by any means, but you know they are struggling with just emotions in general and they're using things like food and alcohol to cope, which then you're like, okay, well, is this now co-occurring with a substance issue?

Laurin Conlin: 19:26

For some people it is, other people it's not right. So it's so complicated and right now the current strategies are some are good, but I have worked with many people who have gone to different clinics or different specialty programs and some of the stuff that I'm hearing. I'm like, yeah, I really want to change this. I'm really hoping I can actually get into that once I'm practicing to actually maybe help make some adjustments to that for sure. But I would just say in general that people who are a little bit more extreme are drawn to body building, and people who, of course, have an extreme interest in what they look like and what they're eating or not eating are also drawn to body building. I would say that it also draws on people who not all, and when people have worth issues or self-confidence issues, they decide to maybe do this and they think, oh, this would be great. I'm really putting myself out there and challenging myself.

Philip Pape: 20:15

As a goal to hit as a drive-on, right.

Laurin Conlin: 20:18

I can't think of the worst thing to do and not to say that you shouldn't do it, but I'm very, very big on we need to be aware of what is happening, right. The one thing that is really tragic about physique sports is that it often gets glamorized, especially in the bikini division and especially in the men's physique division, sometimes classic, but I would say you know, mostly those are kind of the divisions, right. Most people are not waking up and saying, oh, I'm just gonna look like mr olympia, we're a female bodybuilder.

Philip Pape: 20:51

It's not accessible.

Laurin Conlin: 20:52

Yeah not really accessible to most people. But oh, those bikini girls. They look pretty normal, normal, whatever that means. Right, try to use the language that people use. It's not, and what has happened is that what looks to be like a normal size physique, what looks really glitzy and really glam and really fun, it has a lot of hormonal and metabolic and mental side effects. And that does not mean that nobody should do it. That does not mean that it's bodybuilding's fault. I'm very big on that. There's a lot of people who like to blame the physique world and the whole. No, it's not. It's just a byproduct of it.

Laurin Conlin: 21:29

And problem is you're dealing with a subjective judging for something that you've put a lot of objective time into improving, and what people think is that, oh well, I've worked really hard, I've been really hungry and I've been dedicated to this like I should do well. There is no reason that you should do well because you don't know who else is showing up. You don't know what other physiques are there. It's not like, if I do this, I'm gonna get. You know, I'm running this race and I'm gonna get faster. Right, I got faster, I did better, yay, that's not how it works. You could literally look significantly better your next season and place worse.

Philip Pape: 22:09

Yeah, depending on the competition and the judges.

Laurin Conlin: 22:10

Yeah, so, and that is just. I grew up riding horses and showing competitively, which was all subjective, very subjective. Of course there are certain ground rules you know you have, just like bodybuilding, right, like there are certain things that they're looking for, but it's very subjective and I was accustomed to that, I think, from a young age, and so it's not that I didn't struggle with that bodybuilding, but I think I struggle a little less than other people because of that, because I knew, like this is just kind of how those sports go, but a lot of people get into it and they don't realize that. And then what happens is there's always the next thing, right, it's this very strange thing that sucks you in, and I don't know all the exact mechanisms. Obviously, dopamine isn't right here, of course. It just kind of runs our life in general. But basically you work really, really hard, you are really dieted down. You've said no to a million things in your life. You get down to it, and then you feel amazing, and then you don't play straight ball, you get overlooked, you barely even get noticed, and then you're like, oh my God, what do I do? Should I do another show? Another show seems like the answer, because there's always. Well, you're just right there. Right, there's always. You just get a little leaner, just get a little of this. There's always that.

Laurin Conlin: 23:24

So then what happens is people do another show and then becomes this much more narrow focus of like I have to compete and like do better. And it's really, really tough to see that and I've seen it happen to people and it's really hard because, like anything in life, someone has to like recognize that that's what's happening and they have to want to not be doing those things right. But you see a lot of people following that way and I would say that most of the time just becomes this kind of like hole that you almost like can't dig yourself out of, kind of like almost it's not like an addiction. I don't want to say that it's like, oh, it's like an addiction, but you know it could be likened to that. I would say it can follow along the lines of a behavioral addiction, almost right, and it's so niche that we're never, probably ever, going to get data on this, ever say, like what's actually going on, because there's way bigger fish to fry in the world and I know that, for you know, research and funding and all of that.

Laurin Conlin: 24:16

There's some people who do stuff like this. You know, dr campbell, of course, focuses on physique enhancement. You know, people like dr eric helms focus on things like that as well. So there's a lot of people who are interested in these kinds of things. But it is a very unique subset of things. That happens because it's not just the physiological stuff, it's also the psychological stuff.

Laurin Conlin: 24:34

And then you have this. There's always this like power differential, of like you're being judged by someone and you need to like improve and do better here, you know. So there's always like I'm playing catch up, almost because I have to. You know, like does that make sense? It's really insidious for a lot of people, especially if they're not prepared. And that's where it's when people who decide that they want to compete and they want to turn pro and they fully understand all this like I'm so in it, I'm going to push you as hard as you want. But people are like yeah, I just want to do a bucket list thing, maybe do a show. How about we just get pretty lean, lean and like maybe do a photo shoot, see how you feel before we like enter this like danger zone?

Philip Pape: 25:16

That's a totally different level of leanness. Yeah, so I want to pull on that string. I almost think of like three buckets of people. You have those who are ready for it mentally ready it could be a lot of fun, really no concerns from your perspective. Mental, you know, from a mental health perspective. Then you have people like you said, or a casual maybe they also don't have any issues going on, but they're also not right for it because they're doing it for the wrong reasons. And then you have people who are not ready for it.

Philip Pape: 25:37

Now, obviously, the scope of this show and the scope of my practice is not medical, dealing with eating disorders or any of that. We're not trying to diagnose or help anybody with that specifically on this show. But we do want people to be aware from a self-reflective perspective where they might fall on the spectrum. And so you talked about something like informed consent for people who want to get into bodybuilding and physique sports to understand the risks. Can we bucketize it that way and help people understand like, yes, if you're in this category, you could be ready, or if not, here's some warning or red flags.

Laurin Conlin: 26:10

Yeah, I always just like to ask. When I get a new client who wants to get on a call to work with me and they say that they're interested in competing, my first question is always right what is the reason that's?

Philip Pape: 26:21

a good first question for anything we pursue in life, isn't it yes?

Laurin Conlin: 26:26

And it's not to be judgmental, it's not to be any of those but I really need to understand what are the motivations behind you competing this year? Right, and for some people they've never competed. So that's really the main group that I'm trying to like understand, right, see if they really get a grasp of that. Someone's competed before. Generally they already, even if they've done one show, kind of have an idea, right. But when someone's never done something and they've only to your term, probably, like Instagram fitness, they've only followed people on Instagram or YouTube and they've seen show day vlog and you know all this stuff. And you see the top few Olympians, like they look great all year and that's what they're doing.

Philip Pape: 27:00

Like it's amazing, like especially bikini. It's so sparkly and like, yeah, you're right, the glitz and glam, the lighting, everything yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 27:07

Yeah, and for a handful of those top girls like that is their life and that's amazing, like I'm so happy for them, you know. But we have to put into perspective that that's not most people and I think what's hard is that you brought up Simone Biles earlier. I know there's not many adult gymnasts so maybe it's not a great example now, but most people don't watch the Olympics and are like I'm going to, I'm someone bios. Most people aren't playing recreational basketball and they're like I'm going to join the NBA. We kind of have these understandings that we're not going to do that most likely. But with bodybuilding there's no barrier to entry. Anybody can join as long as you could pay, and it's just like well, maybe I can and some people can. That's the thing. Some people can, some people.

Laurin Conlin: 27:51

I've worked with people who have literally trained weights for a few years, like lifted weights just for a few years, and you're like and you know they're older and you're like how do you have this physique? Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. You have all this potential. You have the perfect structure. You have all this. No, you can't start at any point, but to have this like overly romanticized idea about it, like right now, you know I have posing clients that I work with too, who aren't necessarily my actual clients, and you know it's so common when you know we're practicing posing, you're just so tired, just like whatever. And I was talking to my one girl and you know she's competed before so she knows what this feels like. But she also has a business to run and I'm like, hey, just a reminder. You were because I was like hey, are you gonna do another show or you're just doing this one. She's like I don't know, just really really run down, like this is a reminder that this is, you're doing this for fun. You're doing this as something as a learning experience. You wanted to beat your last season, which you already have with your current physique, but you have other responsibilities. So it's okay if you only want to do one show and remember that. You know, and it's.

Laurin Conlin: 28:50

I think it's just an important conversation that we have with ourselves of how much is this impacting my life. You know my career, my finances. You know people I work with a lot of people who have kids. You know like there's a lot of different factors that we have to like weave into this right, and how important are those? So I would say what are the motivations behind the key to, and based on what someone says, I will kind of start to gear the conversation maybe in a different way, and especially for a new person. Most new people and this is going to generalize, but majority of new clients are not going to have enough new to bodybuilding are not going to have enough muscle to compete. They're just not. That's important.

Laurin Conlin: 29:27

If you want to compete, we can get on stage, probably this time next year. How does that sound? They're like oh my God, what. And I'm like yeah, you said you really wanted to do this. How does that sound? They're like well, I was told I could do it.

Laurin Conlin: 29:40

You know, 10 week prep or 12 week prep. Okay, you could, we could diet down your current physique. 12 weeks is it's probably not long enough, but we could. And you're not going to have enough muscle and you're probably just going to get kind of thin and not really have the shape that you're looking for. And to get that lean in 12 weeks we're going to have to do some stuff that probably isn't super great for you long-term and then you're going to probably be in a worse spot three months later after the show. So if that's something that you want to do, I'm not the coach, but go ahead. And that's always kind of that litmus test and I always say, hey, it could be less than a year, that would be amazing, but we need at least a few months to build and at least a few months to diet and realistically that's going to be about a year.

Laurin Conlin: 30:20

You know, unless someone has. Maybe they've already competed and they've taken a bunch of time off and they've just kind of been like, you know, they've been on like maintenance mode, right, like I've even thought about maybe I'll compete next year. I'm so crazy. But yeah, back in school before I do my practicums, like why did I do this? Yeah, I'm like, well, I've been in maintenance mode for a long time, you know, and but I know that once I started actually training hard again, that's a different story. You know what I mean. It's not like I've not been doing this.

Heather: 30:46

Hello, my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace.

Heather: 30:49

Just six days after I started this cut, my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana, turkey.

Heather: 30:56

As I tried to process the stress and trauma, my first instinct was to say, oh, you've been through something hard, this is not a good time. But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day, and not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body, but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months. Here I am on the other side of eight weeks, got my kids through all the things that we have been through, and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did, and I got a new PR on my bench press. I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish, but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful. Thank you, philip no-transcript.

Philip Pape: 32:20

Listeners listen closely.

Philip Pape: 32:21

That's most people listening probably.

Laurin Conlin: 32:23

It's most people. I rarely at this point and it's probably also like at this point. Like I, you know, I'm getting older, so the people who I work with are also getting older too. I don't really usually have people who are like 18 reaching out to me to work with me. Not really like my target demo, you know anymore. So when I'm working with you know a 45 year old mom she has in that case, had kids, so possibly had kids has most likely been through multiple diets, if not years and years of dieting. May or may not have competed right.

Laurin Conlin: 32:51

So we have all of these different things coming at us in terms of we have the previous experiences and mindsets from, maybe, coaches that they've had plans that they've followed and then also just like their own perceptions too, and then everything else. So we can't just say like, yeah, you're going to be ready for 12 weeks and you would think that that kind of stuff would go away, but it hasn't, because there's still people who like prey on that and they're like, no, I can get you ready. And then again people's perceptions and they have there are a lot of coaches that prey on that. I can't stand people who just haven't, haven't really seen. I'm like actually just go to a show and also this is another part and a half people who've never competed and I'm like no-transcript. Think, if people are interested in this kind of thing, that we have to really understand their motivations and we have to understand are they willing to look at the big picture? Because I'm not interested at this point to work with people. If they're going to come out of working with me and be worse, like that is like, of course, opposite of my. It doesn't matter to me if I never work with someone again for a pro card or this. That's an added amazing bonus. Yay, but that's never my goal or my intention.

Laurin Conlin: 34:19

How can I leave someone better? And that doesn't mean that competing is ever easy. So I do want to make sure that that's clear. It doesn't matter how great the approach is, whether it's me or any of the other coaches that I know who are fantastic at this. It doesn't matter how great the approach is, whether it's me or any of the other coaches that I know who are fantastic at this. It doesn't make the process any easier. It doesn't make the physiological adaptations any easier. It doesn't make the psychological adaptations easier. It might make it a little better, but it's still just going to be really hard. You can have the best coach in the world and, as a female, if you're getting a 10% body fat, you're not going to feel okay. Things are going to get a little weird for a little while. Right, just how it's going to happen.

Laurin Conlin: 34:54

But how are we keeping someone in this for too long? Are we not paying attention to, maybe, some of the signs and symptoms that they are falling into a not so great place? Right, either mentally or physically? Like, do we need to pull out of prep? Like, there's a lot of different things here that I think some coaches are not focusing on. Thankfully, there are so many amazing coaches now who are interested in this kind of stuff, and I mean, I know so many of them. So it's like there is just a plethora of not great practices that are happening. And then, of course, add in, you know, peds, if someone wants to do that which, again, totally like, that is your choice, your perspective, but it can be very, very short sighted for some people. I think that if someone wants to do that, my personal opinion would be try to do this, naturally, at least for a season, or at least for some period of time to see what you can actually do.

Philip Pape: 35:46

Yeah, I think that's great. Put on the training wheels right and just try to get lean in general and don't worry about all the specific stuff, which is a whole extra layer. Yeah, yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 35:54

Let's not even dabble in that, because you might find that you did a show and you're like I never want to do this ever again, and this is so like just not in congruency with my life. And now you've realized that, like you've taken all of these drugs that could have long-term side effects that people don't like to talk about and I'm not an expert in that, so I'm not going to speak on it, but I do know that there are many things that people take that can affect one long-term. So it's not just like an easy thing to be like, yeah, well, I'm just going to just add that into it. It'll make it easier, yes, in the short term, but you really need to know am I doing this for the long term? If I'm working with a client who has been doing this for several years and they want to then add that in, that is their prerogative, that's their decision.

Laurin Conlin: 36:36

This is not a quick rush to do something like that, and I think that it's really important to also have that discussion with people. But it's kind of this. You know, I think we've made huge strides in the space, but there is still that mindset of like, oh, if you're doing a bodybuilding show like you just have to take drugs and diet, you know, and eat boiled chicken. It's like no, that's through the whole other world.

Philip Pape: 36:58

Yeah yeah, yeah, no, I guess people listening I don't know how many are interested in competing, but a lot of what you're talking about and the principles apply anyway universally.

Philip Pape: 37:08

I mean one thing you mentioned just kind of quickly, but it is important and we love talking about it here is spending some time building muscle first, no matter what, and the vast majority of my female clients I don't do shows or anything, I don't have that experience I gently try to nudge them toward, you know, their own realization that they might really enjoy the process of adding muscle.

Philip Pape: 37:28

And, by the way, you know, look at somebody like Lauren Collins, super strong, you know or Steph Gaudreau, or you know all these in the space you feel great, you eat a lot, right, there's so many like positives, and then it gives you a better base to go from that and then be a very informed like we talked about informed consent, but that could simply be even just lifestyle, lean kind of.

Philip Pape: 37:45

Look at the process that's involved. And, like you said, there's a dieting piece, right, there's a fat loss phase here at some point. And so, if we want to then segue into the mental side of like, where's that line between food awareness and food obsession? Because you and I, either on the first, second attempt or this attempt at recording this podcast early on, so I don't know if the listener heard this. You were kind of talking about that spectrum and the history of like. If it fits your macros to where we are today, we don't have to repeat all that, but basically like, where's that line so that we can have a healthier relationship with food, especially with the history that many people have?

Laurin Conlin: 38:20

I think it was second one, but I'm not sure I know either way, currently there is this new trend I would say it not new, but newer where, again, this is not everybody in the space, but there is a handful of people in the space who are basically saying that if you're tracking any of your food, that it's disorder. Having any kind of physique related goals is disordered in nature and essentially it seems to me like it's the intuitive eating and health at every size. Movement has degenerated, not for everybody, but for some individuals, and how they're sharing their message. They're saying you know, this is a disorder, this is bad for you. You should just be able to eat whatever you want and really just honor that and this and that. And my biggest beef with this is that Pun intended, sorry. Yeah, my biggest beef with this is that most of the people that I've seen sharing these messages the irony is not lost on me that they all have years and years and years of experience tracking their food and being aware of their food and anyone who has ever gone through a period of tracking food. I'm not even talking about weighing it out, I'm just talking about anything like any awareness of food that sticks with you. You don't lose that right. So it's not lost on me that a lot of the people who have all this knowledge are now the ones saying just don't do this at all, but that's really unfair to the person who.

Laurin Conlin: 39:44

Taking it all the way back to the beginning of this episode, these habits and behaviors start early in our life, right, I didn't grow up, I grew up with, clearly, an eating disorder, so my experience was a little different than most people. But let's take the example of someone who grows up in a family who doesn't know about the constituents of healthy eating. They're relying on fast food and convenience foods, and that is how they grew up. That is all that they know, right? So for them to try to overcome those habits and behaviors, they're going to have to learn quite a bit of knowledge around food and what's in that and portions, and so for us to just say to that person you know, just eat whatever you want, just eat what makes you feel good, is really harmful messaging, in my opinion. Do I think that everybody can get to a space where they're intuitive? I call it intuitive-ish. Yeah, I like that Intuitive-ish. I think that that is absolutely appropriate for most people.

Laurin Conlin: 40:43

I am not sitting here tracking my macros. There's no point in me doing that now right For my life, my goals? I don't do that. But, as we've discussed for the past, since I was eight years old, I've had an awareness of what's in food. I haven't lost that. I still meal prep, I still portion foods out. I still know wow, I was kind of low on this today. Maybe I should have a protein shake. Wow, I missed this meal. It's just, and it's not an obsession, it's just a it's awareness. Okay, this is awareness of what is allowing me to be a healthy, optimal, functioning person. Right and physique aside, health. Eating certain ways influences our health directly. Like there's like, no, there's quite literally zero debate on that. So I think there's a lot of principles about intuitive eating that I appreciate and that I like, but I think that a lot of people in the social media space have created this conversation around diets don't work. That's my favorite one. Intentional weight loss doesn't work, not true?

Philip Pape: 41:36

Energy balance doesn't work. Calories in, calories out doesn't work. Intentional dieting works.

Laurin Conlin: 41:43

What didn't work was how that diet was approached and what we did before that diet and what we did after that diet. So that's what we need to change. It's not that calorie deficits are really bad for us. It's that, and actually quite the contrary. But that's a whole different segment, so I'm not going to get into that.

Philip Pape: 41:57

And whether the diet's even the diet for you. Yeah, exactly.

Laurin Conlin: 42:01

So all diets are bad. Any tracking and it's so funny because at the start of my career it was okay, oh, like, were you know any kind of flexibility with diets and food choices was looked at like a monster, like, oh my gosh, like going against the bro diets and you know all of the books that you have, all the diets that everybody you know, magazines, all that kind of stuff, right, like having any kind of flexibility, you can eat whatever you want, just measure it out. That was like this whole big thing and then, like we talked about kind of in the beginning, then I started to realize, well, that actually kind of does have some of the problems, not because of the diet, but because of people's mindset around it. And then now we're at this weird space too. So I feel like it's just like it's continued to and I think that it's just a byproduct of social media and how we said.

Laurin Conlin: 42:45

You know, I think a lot of times people want quick answers, so we want things that are very concrete. This is good, this is bad. It rarely is that what is helpful. So food awareness, I think, is something that is incredibly important, and this again is irrespective of your physique goals, obviously, if you're more specific physique goals, you need more good awareness. That's pretty obvious. But I think that even just having a healthy body and focusing on our health and longevity, having food awareness is incredibly important for that as well. So all of those things Now, food obsession can certainly happen.

Laurin Conlin: 43:22

And why does that happen? Kind of alluded to and this is again not just categorized, diagnosed eating disorders, because a lot more people fall into disordered eating, which is kind of this big broad umbrella term. It's kind of like when you have stomach pain, you go to the doctor like you have IBS and you're like thanks, appreciate it. Or with women, they're like we don't really know. Hey, you're like cool, that really didn't help at all. So, and also, you're too young for it to be hormones. Sorry, yeah, oh no, you look fine. Why do you get your? Okay, yeah, that's totally how it works, right, but so with see, now I got you, I'm trying.

Philip Pape: 43:58

No, no, it's okay yeah, with disordered eating.

Laurin Conlin: 44:02

What does that mean it? Right, like I don't even know if anybody has it a perfect characterization of what that is, but let's just say food obsession, right. And the common thing that I see with clients so we'll speak on that is when people who have learned about tracking macros and have really been able to integrate that now no longer can not track, right, they feel like everything falls apart. When they can't, they're dependent on it. Yeah, everything falls apart. When they can't, they're dependent on it. Yeah, okay, they become dependent on the three numbers and not the food. And this is really where I started to see some of the issues, because I'm like, okay, this doesn't make sense. The people who have allegedly the most food experience right, because they've been weighing their foods, they've been doing all this stuff they should be able to now eyeball these things pretty easily. Why is this not happening?

Laurin Conlin: 44:52

And there is this connection for a multitude of reasons. It could be a control thing, it could be. Everything in my life is like falling apart. I just really want to be able to focus on this, or it becomes something just don't trust themselves, right, maybe they were overweight before and finally they found something that like makes them feel good and they're like I want to stick to this, like I want to clutch to this so tightly. I never want to go back to where I was before I can understand that.

Laurin Conlin: 45:07

Right, there's also just people who just like their personality, right, they're very whether it's okay or conscientious, or meticulous, like they, just that suits them. So for me to tell someone who's very, very numbers based, yeah, we'll just like, eat whatever you want. They're like meltdown ensues, like what is happening. So again, that's where we have to say what are personality traits. But then also it could just be like an emotional reaction, right, like I am trying to suppress other emotions, so I'm using you know, now I'm having these issues with food and it's not just a tracking thing. This could also now be like food obsessions could be, you know, insert x, food right. Or just always constantly having this food noise, or always wanting something new, or feeling like they have to snack, like whenever someone says I feel like I have to do this, I have to do X you know right, and maybe even it goes beyond.

Philip Pape: 45:52

Food is almost what you're implying, and it's not the food, yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 45:56

It's never really like the food. Well, once this happens, then everything kind of falls apart. Okay, well, food is the outcome, but that's not really the driving factor and you driving factor. And I will say that as coaches, it's not necessarily our goal to figure those things out. We can help highlight that for clients because that work needs to be done anyway. That needs to become conscious for people.

Laurin Conlin: 46:18

A lot of times food issues are subconscious For most individuals. They've operated with that for so long and they have no reason. They're not really thinking about why that's happening until they really really reflect on it. And then they're like wow, okay, because of this one situation, like for a whole life. This is how I've viewed things. Or you know another really common one when people go to events and they're not able to like say no to certain foods, right, it's really easy to be like, just say no. What's so hard about that? And I definitely took that stance for a really long time Like just develop the skills to like say no, and for some people that is appropriate. That is what they need, because they've never done that before and they need to learn.

Philip Pape: 46:56

Yes, a strategy to process and move forward. Yes, not even necessarily need to unravel the root cause in that context. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't do.

Laurin Conlin: 47:08

Sometimes you don't, yep, and then other people there's a lot more there as to why that's happening, right, and then. So that's where we again have to say, okay, maybe. Hey, now I'm going into territory where this isn't necessarily like my scope any longer, right, and I often get this question because I do talk about mental health. You know quite a bit. I have for several years. A lot of coaches are like well, how do I know, or am I always going to know? You don't always know right away, right, if you are working with someone, you might not know and they might not know either, right. And then also things change. Things change people's lives, where then events happen. And then they're like oh my gosh, now this got uncovered and I didn't even know this was here and now, because of this event, then this happened and now we're dealing with this thing, right, so coaching is very dynamic and that's why I think it's so frustrating that people try to make it so straightforward. It's oversimplify, yep, yep, yeah. And it's like why are we trying to oversimplify something that is complicated and doesn't need to be complicated, because we're trying to confuse people, but it needs to be complicated so that we are taking in the entire person and what is going on in their life and really take a holistic approach. I know that word misused sometimes, so I'm like I need a better word, but I think it's coming around in a more positive light again, so I'm going to stick with it.

Laurin Conlin: 48:18

So people can develop food obsessions for a lot of different reasons and I think, as someone who you know say, if any coach is listening right, you're going to want to start to look for changes in language around some of the things that they're sharing with you. That's usually my first indicator is, and that you know that starts with you need to make sure you're asking the right questions, you know, to your clients. But then if you start to notice that they're maybe sharing some language that isn't normal, or they're just sharing, they're really carping on certain things. They're like they brought this up like three times in the past two weeks Like that's not normal for them. You know, because if someone has an off week, you don't need to jump on their throat.

Laurin Conlin: 48:55

Do you have an eating disorder? Like you know, we don't need to like over catastrophize either, right? So sometimes it's like, hey, somebody had an off week just not feeling it, or this is coming on, but I take it out of it After a few weeks kind of been seeing this trend. Just want to put that out there. How are you feeling about it? Do you notice this Right? One of my favorite things to do with clients and sometimes I like this, sometimes I don't is I need you to reflect on X, y, z and then get back to me next week with your responses, right, yeah, yeah On the head.

Philip Pape: 49:24

It resonated with that so hard.

Laurin Conlin: 49:26

And because I'm not going to put words in your mouth because I really don't know what's going on. You know yourself better than the coach does. Yeah, and this is where you know some people don't like that coaching approach. Other people do. I feel like it is the best for the long-term change, and not just the coaches, I mean, the clients don't like that. Just tell them what I will gotta do the tape. So sometimes I'll be like, hey, yeah, these are some things we gotta do. There's some things we gotta not do. This is something that I don't know currently.

Laurin Conlin: 49:56

Like I use that example of you know, like a holiday, like you know a day off and you know party or whatever and this food, and I just you know I couldn't stay on traffic. And then I'm just like, well, that could be 57 different things. I'm getting a little feedback from you as to eternally why that happened, right. And then you know, usually when people do that, they're like, oh my gosh, I didn't even realize, like what. I really sat down and thought about it. Like I really didn't even realize, like this is actually what that was. And it's not always going to be that easy, right, sometimes it's going to be like months of trying to figure that out with a client Especially if there are multiple triggers, you know that they're sensitive to.

Laurin Conlin: 50:27

Exactly. And again, people have a lot of shit going on, so it's not like everybody. It's just, like you know, we're not working with clients who generally have like ample time to be sitting around and doing this, but this is really important work and that's how we always tie it back Like listen, I don't want you to keep falling into these patterns. So we need to start to look at this and for anyone anyone listening, who's not a coach, who's just doing this on their own and they're like well, maybe I feel like I'm kind of being pulled towards that that's where just any kind of reflective exercise is so important and anytime you kind of notice something you know be like okay, well, that was maybe not characteristic of me, right?

Laurin Conlin: 51:00

I haven't done that before I didn't act like that. Just take note of it. That happens again. Okay, let me kind of reflect, you know, on this and that's why I just I'm really big on reflective practices and I don't think that even I think a lot of times people think you need to sit down and have a whole reason. You're going to journal or do a whole thing. Sometimes, if you do it consistently, the things will come up, I promise.

Philip Pape: 51:18

Yeah, and I want to interject because you continue to hit on the self-awareness piece and that's like if anybody who knows about emotional intelligence, which is something I got into 20 or so years ago I'm old now but in my career, as I was trying to manage other people and I'm like I don't really even get people because I don't get myself and one of the first exercises is figure out who you are and what you're saying is just awareness, whether it's food, your behavior, a trigger why you want to do this physique competition sit down for two minutes with a piece of paper and just write it down can be game changing.

Laurin Conlin: 51:53

So I love that.

Philip Pape: 51:54

Yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 51:55

It's so simple it seems like it wouldn't help. You know, and we touched on a little bit and I said, sometimes when goals are too similar to what you're already doing, people don't want to do them. So they think like, what is the two or five minute journal session gonna do for me? Like that doesn't seem like it's gonna highlight much promise.

Laurin Conlin: 52:11

If you do it consistently, it will really really start to like some of the hardest times in my life when I was navigating a lot of like personal growth and changes, I was journaling a lot and it was really the first time that I like dedicated to doing it and I mean it helped so much because you just start to see these patterns. And that is really where a good coach can help step in and kind of be that intermediary right, because as a coach I'm going to be able to bring those things to your awareness that you maybe wouldn't have seen. And then you know we can kind of say like, oh, okay, now I notice. I notice every Thursday we kind of have an issue what's going on either Wednesday or Thursday that maybe is causing this right when someone could just be on autopilot and not realize that every Thursday shit goes awry.

Philip Pape: 52:57

So that's where having someone in your life can really really help, as that kind of outside influence, Absolutely amplifies it and it gives you that extra support around you to kind of flex into that. It's funny that you mentioned journal and that's a trigger word for me, because I've always said that like I'm not a big journaler, right, and I've had clients that are like, don't tell me to journal, Are you telling me to journal? I'm like no, no, we're not going to journal. What I want you to do is log a note in your food log, in your workout log. I want you to write a note and it's like, oh cool, Okay, I'll do that Language is everything, because every word has a connotation.

Laurin Conlin: 53:29

You know you could tell like me journaling. I'm like, oh my God, I love journaling, yeah, I'll tell someone else journaling. And they're like, yeah, not for me. That was me with meditation a few years ago. I was like so convinced I was like I'm not a meditator, it's woo, it's clearly I'm a little over the place, right, and that's just my natural state and I accepted that about myself and it's super fine, it is a strength in some areas.

Laurin Conlin: 53:50

But I was like I'm never gonna meditate. You know, I can't sit still, I can't sit at all this stuff. And that was the reason I couldn't do. It was because I convinced myself otherwise. And then finally I got tired of my own shit and I was like you know what, I'm gonna try. This seems like a lot of people who have their shit together like to meditate and it works pretty well for them. So maybe they're onto something. So let me check it out. And I eventually started to really dedicate more to it and have been able to get a lot out of it. But it is so funny because for years I was just like no no, no, yeah, it's just.

Philip Pape: 54:20

Sometimes it's just a hard thing you've got to do, you know. You just got to choose to do it and then try it. I know we're short on time because of our three times a charm recording, but what I want to end with is you're going for this master's in clinical mental health counseling. You just gave people some actionable things to try and hopefully open people's mind to realize there is a lot of flexibility, even when we say flexible dieting. Alan Aragon was on the show and his definition was your approach is flexible. That's what I mean. He doesn't mean just if it fits your macros. Dr Eric Helms was on and he's like I don't track anymore, but I tracked for 20 years, so you adapt. How do you see in helping people in the future in a way that maybe a lot of fitness coaches like you are not doing, and that's why you're going after this degree.

Laurin Conlin: 55:04

Yeah. So I pretty much realized that I could get people up to a certain point and then I no longer have the skills to do that. I don't have the training, I don't have the licensure and I know that there's a lot of people who operate in a world where they don't care about those things, but I do. It's important to me, and especially when people are talking about very, very intensive things like currently anybody is allowed to share anything with me. That's on them. I'm not trying to extract that information right, they're just shit. But when we start to unravel and really hit the wall of like, oh okay, I have these eating behaviors because of this, you know, childhood trauma and this assault in these different situations, I don't have the tools currently to do that. And not to say that I need to do that for every client, because I don't. But I just have a very deep interest in this and I just felt like there was a way that I could really help bridge both of the worlds, because in the mental health world it's becoming more. You know, people are, of course, focusing on health behaviors, but it's not really taught to most. I mean, honestly, our coursework is very full. I don't know Like I mean just the master program alone is so intensive, like in terms of hours and like coursework and practical hours. So it's not to say that it was the fault, like we need to add in some nutrition classes, like if it's not relevant, right? But there's a lot of people in that space who aren't talking about that. Just like in health and fitness space, more people are talking about mental health, but are they actually able to help clients fully integrate in that way? Not necessarily. So I really wanted to be able to be a bridge for both, and that was because obviously physical health affects mental health and vice versa. So I really want to be able to hopefully bridge that for some people.

Laurin Conlin: 56:40

And I don't know what the current trajectory will look like. You know, because by the time I'm done, it'll be about five years. So it's one of those things where you know because by the time I'm done, it'll be about five years. So it's one of those things where Because you just started, right, you literally just started, yeah, I just started. And then the master's itself is about two and a half years. And then after, because in the master's program I'm also doing in our program, doing 900 supervised hours also within that and then when I graduate I have to then do another 1500 hours over at least, like between two to five years, and then I can sit for my licensure exam. In that period I can take on individuals, but I will still be working towards a license, so people just have to be aware of that. But then in about five years, give or take, I'll be fully licensed, so and that's the fastest process that you can do.

Laurin Conlin: 57:24

So that is one of those things where you know during my internship hours I don't know where I'm going to.

Laurin Conlin: 57:29

Necessarily, you know work and do all that Like I'm keeping my options open, and so I'm sure, like even in my first month, I've learned so much because there really is so much nuance into the field.

Laurin Conlin: 57:40

So I don't know exactly what I'll be doing, but I do envision kind of bringing both together and also being a resource for a lot of other coaches that I know in the space who want to send their clients to therapists. But maybe some of the therapists don't necessarily understand some of the coach stuff that we do deal with in a normal way, right, which I know, for some people could maybe look disordered if they are not aware of it. But we know again, there's a very big difference of food awareness versus, you know, an eating disorder but someone who hasn't necessarily been exposed to, that they might be like I'm not too sure and this sounds like this, so want to maybe be that person within the space as well for those clients, cause that is a big feedback that I get from people who have gone to therapists, especially if they are the nurse or in that kind of space it's. It is a little misunderstood, which no fault to anyone, because how would you know unless you're in that?

Philip Pape: 58:29

No, a hundred percent, I mean, I think, that's weird I think the fact that you said you're already learning a ton. I could see you bringing that you know to your social media and your podcast and stuff like that. But even to enhance coaching practice right, even without the entering into the scope of being licensed, I'm sure there's an untapped area for coaches of just more on awareness and understanding.

Laurin Conlin: 58:49

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've already learned things in this month that I have been able to apply to clients. And then I also do run a coaching mentorship program and I've already adjusted. One of the weeks I added different stuff that I learned to the lecture. You know what I mean. So it's one of those things where I'm like I'm already, I'm super excited for that. I honestly didn't I knew I would be able to help clients like currently, like that I'm working with, with what I'm learning, but now I'm actually seeing a lot of applications also to the coaches that I help mentor as well. So I'm like, oh okay, this will be good.

Philip Pape: 59:23

So it's all going to be a big learning, eye-opening experience. Well, and if you're not too busy in a few months, maybe we get you back on. You can like share some of that I love to come back on. We had so many topics so I'm more than happy to come back on for part two anytime is there anything just to wrap up, anything you wish I had asked or anything you wanted to leave with?

Laurin Conlin: 59:39

no, I just I really appreciate the conversation. I love all the directions that it went. I love that you care about these types of topics because they are so important but they sometimes get under discussed because the very concrete, flashy things are more exciting to talk about. You know how much protein to get? It's like let's move on.

Laurin Conlin: 59:59

This new thing came out or this whatever and I'm not against those kinds of things at all but I really think that in order to help more people, we need to really kind of take a step back and look at, like, what is like the big picture of, like how we're thinking and why we're doing things. And if I can help encourage anyone as an individual or as a coach to be able to, you know, look at things from that perspective and that lens, then I feel like I've done my job.

Philip Pape: 1:00:24

Awesome. Yeah, I mean behavior change and psychology is the root of. I know me personally. When I talk to more and more clients, it's like just lay it on me. They'll be like am I telling you too much? I'm like, no, this is going to help you, so just lay it on me and I'll help where I can. It's all about the up here, all right? So where can listeners learn more about you, lauren?

Laurin Conlin: 1:00:42

Yeah, so my Instagram, I would say, post primarily there. So, just at Lauren Conlin, l-a-u-r-i-n, c-o-n-l-i-n. I also just started documenting again on YouTube. So back in the day I used to do YouTube videos and I'm coming back just with going back to school and I'm navigating a business and relationships and all this different stuff and going to school. Here's some things I'm learning, here's how I'm doing stuff.

Laurin Conlin: 1:01:06

So that's back on my YouTube, just my full name as well, taking a little pause on the podcast because of all this, but the Logo Fit Show does have over 300 episodes, so there's plenty of information on there and I have great guests. We actually have also a mental health counselor who I typically do episodes with as well, so we have that in there as well. And then the other coaches on the team and, yeah, so it's pretty much like the main places. And then, of course, our website, redefine Healthy Brands, if anyone is interested in one-on-one coaching for their lifestyle or competition. And then, lastly, I don't know when this is coming out, but I am running my third round of my coaching mentorship the Art and Science of Coaching. So that will be starting on October 7th. So if anyone's interested in that, feel free to send a message or an email and I can shoot you more info.

Philip Pape: 1:01:53

I'm sure there are coaches that listen to the show as well, because I know, as a coach, I like other coaches shows, so we'll put all of that in the show notes. Lots of fun. This will be out in a few weeks from when we record it, so whoever, but when you're listening to it, you've just traveled in time and you've got it right now, and thank you so much for taking the time, even after repeating three times.

Laurin Conlin: 1:02:11

Of course, third time was the charm. It was great. Thank you so much, lauren.