Philip Pape: 0:01

You know what to do. You know the value of flexible nutrition, tracking your macros, following an effective training program and training hard in the gym. Yet you still aren't seeing the physical results you want, whether that's getting stronger, losing fat or building more muscle. If you're starting to wonder if maybe you're missing something, even if your nutrition and training plan look perfect on paper, what I'm about to share might challenge everything you believe about effort and results. Today I'm sitting down with someone who's not only transformed his own physique but has published over 1,900 podcast episodes about reaching the next level and been featured on nearly 3,000 shows to uncover why even the best evidence-based training and nutrition approach can fail without the right mindset and execution. You'll discover why level 5 effort will never get you level 10 results. How to honestly assess if you're really putting in the work and the framework for finally matching your effort to your goals.

Philip Pape: 1:03

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are answering the question why do most people fail to achieve their fitness goals? Is it a lack of information, the wrong plan or something else? My mentor, friend and returning guest, kevin Palmieri, is the founder and co-host of Next Level University, a global top 100 self-improvement podcast with over get this 1,900 episodes, and he's been a guest on over 3,000 other podcasts.

Philip Pape: 1:38

After realizing that even perfect plans fail without elite execution, kevin has built a framework for matching your effort level to your goals, whether that's in the gym, in the kitchen or in life. Today, you'll learn fail without elite execution. Kevin has built a framework for matching your effort level to your goals, whether that's in the gym, in the kitchen or in life. Today, you'll learn that having a plan and knowing what to do isn't enough if your effort doesn't match your ambitions. How to honestly assess where you're falling short and what's required to finally start putting in true level 10 effort with your nutrition and training. Kevin, my friend, so good we made this happen and that you are back on the show, philip, I appreciate that wonderful introduction so very much.

Kevin Palmieri: 2:10

I hope I can live up to the reputation you have created for me. That will be the goal. But I'm excited to chat. You're a wonderful human and any opportunity I get to chat with you is always a good time. So here we are.

Philip Pape: 2:20

Yeah, we know each other really well at this point through both friendship and mentorship and coaching, podcasting, a little bit of fitness. You came on episode 54 back. We were talking like gosh two years, maybe over a year ago now, and I like with the intros, I like to set the standard for what the guest brings, so as opposed to the other way around. So you're already there, man.

Lisa: 2:41

You're already there, all right I appreciate it.

Philip Pape: 2:44

You're already there. Now, besides being such a great guy, I wanted you on so that we could talk about wanting level 10 results but not being able to prioritize putting in the effort to get there, not not so much as judgment on people like not working hard enough, not enough willpower, but just the realities of life and balance and all of these things. So you host a podcast that has the phrase next level in it, and I think it's appropriate, but you know, none of us are perfect. None of us are all at that level 10 or where we might want to be. So, as a guy who has been in the bodybuilding game in the past and you're showing off your guns right now on the video and who also has a thriving business to run, is this something you struggle with right now?

Kevin Palmieri: 3:25

This whole thing started. Let's just cut to the chase. Let's just cut to the chase. Philip and I have a wonderful WhatsApp dialogue going on.

Kevin Palmieri: 3:32

He reached out to me one day and said hey, can I ask you a question? And I said yeah, of course. And he said as a business owner and somebody into self-improvement and what you do, what is your biggest struggle when it comes to fitness? And I said, honestly, the biggest struggle is understanding that I want 10 out of 10 level results, but I can't really put in level 10 effort. When I was bodybuilding, I was waking up and doing an hour of cardio, going home, eating, going, working out for an hour. All my life was essentially make food, eat food, work out, rest, and I was in really, really good shape and I won on stage and that's awesome. But that's not necessarily sustainable for where I am today. So I feel like I'm struggling with it less than I ever have, but I've also drastically adjusted my expectations for myself and I've also drastically adjusted my expectations for myself and I've also drastically adjusted the perception of myself, and that's I think. I'm not saying lower standards, I'm saying create more accurate understanding of standards based on circumstances.

Philip Pape: 4:40

Essentially, yeah, that makes sense. There's realistic expectations come to mind, but, like you said, without lowering the standards. It makes me think of a conversation I had with a friend about is there such a thing as good enough whether it's in fitness or any other pursuit, like if someone generally just wants to be healthy and look decent, not get on stage like you did. You know what is that effort level required and are they even achieving that? So I think I think we want to kind of hit on both sides of the equation for folks that are just struggling to do anything maybe and want to make progress sort of beginners, if you will and then those who are really busy. They know what to do, they have the information, they listen to this podcast, they know all about protein and everything else and they're like, eh, something's not quite clicking, so where do we take it from there, kevin?

Kevin Palmieri: 5:24

I would say if you're somebody who doesn't feel like you're doing anything and you're struggling, the first, the one word that matters more than anything, in my opinion, is sustainability. Nothing really matters if what you're doing isn't sustainable. The best diet regimen, the best exercise regimen, just doesn't matter. If it's not sustainable. You can start with really good intentions and you can start with high levels of motivation, but if it's not sustainable, you won't continue it. So sustainability for me is always the most important thing. I'll be very, very honest. We grew our business a ton last year.

Kevin Palmieri: 6:02

I also was out of the gym more than I had been in the last five years probably. When I was working my way back in, I went to a smaller gym that had less bodybuilders in it, because for me, it was more sustainable for me to go make my mistakes and look like a weakling there Again my standards, my words for me than it was at the home gym that I go to all the time. I wasn't prepared for that level of feedback yet. I just wasn't. I was essentially feeling like I was starting from zero.

Kevin Palmieri: 6:34

So sustainability is wildly important, and I think it's also the least sexy thing in the world, and that's why not a lot of people talk about it. A lot of people say, well, go exercise for two hours, take massive action, all that stuff. It works for some humans, but not for everyone. And I would say, on the other end, if you feel like you know all the stuff and you listen to this podcast and you have resources and you're not doing it, I think it's a real challenging conversation of core beliefs and core values and core aspirations. Would you rather go to the gym after work or would you rather be home with your family?

Kevin Palmieri: 7:14

That is a real, honest conversation that I think is important to have, because I don't think you can really balance everything. I think that's made up. I don't think it's real. I think what you're doing is juggling everything. So right now I'm here with Philip, I'm not spending time with my wife and I'm not making any money Right. So right now I'm doing this. The other areas of my life are technically falling slowly, but if I'm juggling three things, two of those balls are not getting caught right now, and I think of that from a fitness perspective too, for very busy human beings.

Philip Pape: 7:52

All right. So there's a lot of really good things. I want to pull on some threads. So what you ended with, with balance not being a thing I totally agree with. I've used the word integration or or whatever it is.

Philip Pape: 8:04

We joke that you're on this show today and you've got like back to back, uh, calendar, and all this stuff's not going to happen because of that, and you, like you said you have to evaluate should I do this or should I do this? Now, it's not always binary, right? Like sometimes that's an excuse where we're saying we're we're forcing ourselves into a binary decision when it it's not really, but I get it. So you also mentioned sustainability, which, yeah, it's a buzzword that becomes this unsexy thing like sleep. When I put out an episode on sleep, I'm like this is going to solve everybody's recovery and training needs and nobody listens to it because it says sleep. You got to say something like do this one thing for massive gains, all right, so let's talk about practical things.

Philip Pape: 8:47

You said you went to a different environment. The smaller gym, fewer bodybuilders. Actually reminded me of a meme I saw and if you saw this, arnold Schwarzenegger and it says like if you're going to wear gloves to the gym you might as well take your purse with you or something like that. It's you know, but anyway it reminded me of a discussion I just had with the founder of Boostcamp. He's on probably the episode before or after this one, I don't know. He said that they looked at data of lifters and their drop-off rates and they found that three days a week had a much smaller drop-off weight than four. And it's a great way to look at adherence and sustainability from a practical perspective is, if you're trying to do that four day a week program and you just can only get in three days, you're going to feel so frustrated, but if you do a two day a week program, it should be easy.

Philip Pape: 9:33

So let's talk about that, those standards then, for somebody trying to just get fit and again, you have a background in lifting. Let's target the folks that are in their forties or fifties. They have a family, they have a business or a job, kind of like you, but they, they need to go through that effort. That's probably a higher level effort than you right now, cause they're you're maintaining, I think hopefully they want to grow Well, right, cause certain things get detrained. I get it, um, just like you, not being with being with your family right now is getting detrained. Where do they start?

Kevin Palmieri: 10:11

And then we can talk about how you're not putting enough effort. We'll go from there. That's the hard thing is you start by not putting enough effort in. That's really the weird thing about all this, and I've been saying this so often on podcasts there is no one size fits all. I think most blanket statements are just wrong, because if it seems to work for everyone, it probably works for no one If we really think about it, because we're not factoring in the circumstances. So I would say you do the least amount humanly possible. That will give you any feeling of progress. That is the advice I would give.

Kevin Palmieri: 10:49

You and I were talking in the pre-chat before this and we were talking about the podcast and I said, oh, I didn't know, you started doing episodes every other week. And you said, yeah, that's what I was doing in the beginning. It would be really easy for me to look at that and say you're never going to win that way. I. I do seven episodes a week. Not good that I've been doing this a long time. This is like the thing that I do.

Kevin Palmieri: 11:10

I always tell clients I want you to do the minimum that you will actually stick with, because it's not about the gains or the results or the weight loss in the first week, that doesn't matter. It's not about that. It's about are you there two months later doing the thing at a high enough clip where you can actually get results? So I'm in this phase now, philip, of setting goals that are almost embarrassingly small, because when you start to get momentum, it's easier to go. It's easier to go to the gym or whatever your preferred preference. When it comes to go, it's easier to go to the gym or whatever your preferred preference. When it comes to exercises, it's easier to do it when you've been doing it longer. So that would be my advice. It might not be the best, most practical advice in the world, but I've just seen that work, more than almost anything else I've ever said to anyone, which makes it practical.

Philip Pape: 12:03

Which makes it very practical.

Philip Pape: 12:05

I mean, just to quote something you just said it starts with not enough effort. I think that's a really good reframe because people are trying to do enough for something but if they're doing zero, going from zero to one and you see this in a lot of paradigms I spoke with Dr Sarah Ballantyne. Her episode came out on the show and she said going from zero to one servings of vegetables a day is as effective as going from one to four when it comes to like longevity, right, we see this everywhere. So sitting on the couch to going to the gym one day a week is going to make a massive, a massive change. But something else he said was like you could almost do that. Find that minimum level and kind of not coast. But do that. Find that minimum level and kind of not coast, but do that for a while in a compound. So can you essentially half-ass your way to a great physique, right?

Kevin Palmieri: 12:51

I think you can half-ass your way to a better physique. Okay, good, but I don't think you're most likely going to be able to half-ass your way to your ideal physique Good way to put it. This is my thought process on it. So there's three steps. Sustainability is the first one. You do something sustainably to start. When sustainability becomes relatively easy, that means you're doing it consistently. So if you start sustainably, then you can act consistently. Then the third step is improvement.

Kevin Palmieri: 13:23

So when you lock in, I go to the gym let's just use the gym as an example. I go to the gym one time per week for 15 minutes, cool, awesome. And eventually you say that's sustainable, I'm doing it consistently. I've been doing it for two months. All right, I've done it back to back. Okay, maybe not a ton of time, but let's see. Do we think we could go one time a week for 30 minutes? Do we think we could go two times a week for 15 minutes? Both, all right, let's see. And then it gets to the point where that becomes easy. So yeah, I think it's a conversation about ideal versus realistic. Ideally, you would go to the gym the recommended amount of times, whatever that is for you. Realistically, it might take you three years to get there, okay, and that's. That's totally fine, because the majority of the amazing results you get are probably going to be in the first three years, anyway, because that's when you're changing all of your behaviors. So that, whatever that answer is, that's what I would say.

Philip Pape: 14:24

No, that's a simple framework Sustainability, consistency, improvement. The question people might say is what if that first step, even though it's sustainable, is not enough to show something meaningful for a long time?

Kevin Palmieri: 14:38

That's the hard part is again easier said than done. You have to measure the inputs as much, if not more, than the outputs when you're new to something, because the inputs are the thing that you're not doing. You're not doing the input, so you're definitely not going to get the, the output. There is a lag. There's a lag between input and then perceived result. So I would say it's test and then reevaluate. So if you feel like, if you feel like it's sustainable and you've done it and nothing is happening, then I would say all right, cool. How much more could we challenge ourselves? Would it be sustainable still to multiply the time? Let's just say add 50, so we're going to do 20 minutes instead of 15. Awesome, let's start there. I, that's kind of my, my thought process, because I think one of the big things that can happen is, if you push it too hard, too fast, you identify as the type of person who is not capable of doing it and then you just stop and then you lose, lose all the momentum. I'd rather have 50% momentum than zero.

Philip Pape: 15:48

Yeah, it makes perfect sense because the base of information that you're working from. This is where I think that is important, in that, when they listen to this podcast or read the Muscle and Strength Pyramids or hopefully find good, solid information, you can have at least a baseline level of confidence that the steps you're taking measured by the inputs, like you said, measured by the inputs, because the outputs aren't going to show up for a while. We'll eventually produce those outputs. The challenge is, if people don't know the right information to begin with and then they go down the wrong path I don't want to really get it too much into that today, because the premise is that we kind of have that information, what about somebody who's doing too much and stumbling, like you said, and then they have to dial it back? Do we dial it back all the way or do we? Is there a backward stare process to like decrement us down into a sustainable place?

Kevin Palmieri: 16:36

That's a great question. Usually, usually, that's not where I am with people. Usually it's the other way. Yeah, I would say it's probably. The word that comes to mind for me is simplify and optimize. So I guess we have to get specific on what the actual behaviors are that the people are practicing. But when you say they're doing too much, what do you mean?

Philip Pape: 16:59

Yeah, I'm thinking doing a lot of cardio or going to the gym seven days a week, thinking they need that level of volume for results. I guess what I'm implying is they're not getting results even with all that. Work is where I'm coming from.

Kevin Palmieri: 17:11

Yeah, I think that. So my argument for that would be if that is the behavior, then the awareness isn't high enough, because now there's a ton of data out there that suggests that is not the way to do it. And if you're doing that, maybe you're overtraining I know that's another buzzword in the industry but then maybe the awareness isn't enough. So that's kind of the thought when you're starting. It's as much about the mindset as it is the strategy and the work ethic. If you've already been doing it for a long time, give yourself two thumbs up and check the box.

Kevin Palmieri: 17:49

You're really good at the work ethic part, but the strategy and the mindset are off. So that's what you have to work on. It's the mindset and the strategy, not the work ethic. I think in the beginning it typically is the work ethic that people are afraid to put out there. So I would say it's probably a conversation of awareness more than anything else. You have to seek new information that proves to you that it's not. It proves to you that the reason you're not getting the results is not the strategy, but it is the strategy in a way, and then you can adjust accordingly.

Philip Pape: 18:25

Yeah, no, it makes sense Because people are I know folks that listen are sometimes fearful of dropping a bunch of work from their plate that they think is getting them fitness goals and then all of a sudden they're going to gain a bunch of weight, lose a bunch of muscle, whatever. Yeah, yeah. But look, if you're listening, if you're not getting the result doing that anyway, what is that telling you? Like, strip it back.

Kevin Palmieri: 18:45

What you feel like you're doing is you feel like you're doing optimal, like what I'm doing is optimal but realistically you're not getting any results. Yeah, so it's not going to work in the long run anyway, so we have to adjust something. It just also seems like the least logical thing to adjust. It's like well, why should I do less when more isn't getting me results? Completely understandable, but there are certain times where you're just not in the right, you're out of optimal. It just doesn't feel like it.

Philip Pape: 19:11

So now, once people get through that cycle and they start to build momentum and start to grow and up-level themselves, what separates those operating at a level 10, understanding that that goalpost can move right, From those that are kind of stuck at a five or six? They're not at a zero, they're at a five or six. What would you say differentiates those assuming it's not intentional? You know what I mean.

Kevin Palmieri: 19:34

Yeah, can you ref, can you reframe for me?

Philip Pape: 19:40

the question. The question yeah, please um, okay, yeah what distinguishes a level 10 person from a level 5 person in terms of?

Kevin Palmieri: 19:48

fitness specifically yeah sure fitness I would say honestly, probably flexibility. I think flexibility is a really big thing that a lot of people don't talk about it, but I would argue that my business partner is probably at a level 10 in terms of inputs, but he is also wildly flexible with what counts as a workout. So for him, walking the dog is something that he checks the box off and he's getting a workout. He started by doing 25 minutes of weight training seven days a week. He works out every day. I'm not saying that's what I don't aspire to, that that's what he aspires to. Then, when that became sustainable, he did 30. Then it went to 35. Then it went to 40. Then it went to 45. All of it was a moving target based on your own standards, paired with flexibility. So I would say that it's way more about your ability to show up than it is the results you get, because there's a lot of people that are in really good shape that well, they've just been doing it. I've been doing this so long. I can get away with things that maybe other people can't, so I'm not a good example of just do what I do. So I think flexibility is one, I think prioritization is is probably two, and then I man, more than ever, I would say, understanding and practicing the basic fundamentals, the principles.

Kevin Palmieri: 21:11

Yeah, you talked about sleep. I used to be the guy who got four hours of sleep and I went. I just hopped up on NO Explode, I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to crank out a great workout. Now, when I get eight hours of sleep, everything is better, my workouts are better, my days are better, I drink more water because I'm awake. It doesn't seem like it attaches to everything, but it is the foundation of everything. So I would say it's the fundamentals that don't seem like they matter, that matter to everything else that's going to help you in the short and long run.

Philip Pape: 21:46

That's powerful, right, because there are people that want to jump to hey, I want to lose fat but you don't have the basics. And hey, that extra hour of sleep is just going to make it easy to lose fat, right, and guess what? You don't have to eat as few calories. Going back to the flexibility, this is a really good one because I've been thinking a lot about training. I consider myself like intermediate lifter, if you will, and I started with programs that were very simple, basic, you know, like boring, but basic, right, like a set of three by five squat type program which a lot of people do, and I think they're great.

Philip Pape: 22:17

Initially they're not flexible, other than maybe the amount you jump, you know, in weight session to session, um. But now I'm a huge fan of periodization, of base and peaking and undulation and like just really varying it up, not for its own sake, but because there's benefit to that um, to your body. So I think there's a literal flexibility and there's a metaphorical flexibility we're talking about. That is hugely important with fitness. So if you're listening, like, just this is for the people that are already at level five, trying to get to level 10, we already addressed going from zero to five. So it's kind of like you're periodizing your leveling right Start with the basics, the sustainability, and then move on to these others.

Kevin Palmieri: 22:57

Can I add a real quick thought? Yeah, yeah, please, please, this. I think this is what I'm trying to. I'm trying to get this to land in my own head so I can say it out loud. We had somebody on the podcast early on. Her name's Lori Harder and she said something that I'll never forget for as long as I'm alive. She said consistent 70% days are better than spotty 100% days, and that's essentially what I'm saying, is I'm thinking more about the trend line. So if you are doing a little bit better than you were doing at this point last week, it's never going to actually be 100%. So if you're getting closer to whatever your unique capability is, that is a win in my book. I don't aspire ever to get to that bodybuilding level again. It's never going to happen, but I do aspire to get closer and closer and closer and closer. So now it's not about me getting to optimal. It's, it's about me getting to realistic, based on the circumstances. The lifestyle and the effort I'm willing to put in Makes sense.

Philip Pape: 23:57

Yeah, and the idea of using the levels. This is just a uh what do?

Lisa: 24:01

you call it.

Philip Pape: 24:02

A stand-in because somebody who, like you, are you might be operating on level 10 for what you want today and it's a lot lower level 10 than before. So, yeah, I mean, as long as you're happy, as long as you're meeting where you want to meet. So here's what I wonder what do you think about the? When you look at the fitness industry, we look at all the um influencers. Oh boy, how many of them are putting in level 10 effort versus just really marketing. Well, what are your thoughts on that?

Kevin Palmieri: 24:28

Oh man.

Kevin Palmieri: 24:30

I mean one. I'm willing to bet. If you looked at the median age of most of these influencers, they're probably in their mid twenties. So there's something different about I remember the 20,. When I was in the mid twenties you could do anything and it kind of worked. I have worked out with some people in the fitness industry that have really big followings and what I will say is they have days where they record content and they have days where they really work out, and the workouts you see online are not usually their days where they're actually working out.

Philip Pape: 25:02

Yeah, yeah, that's a disconnect.

Kevin Palmieri: 25:05

Right or wrong? I'm not. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm not trying to throw smoke on anybody. I've done workouts with people that didn't get recorded and they were drastically different than the ones that got did. Uh, that that did get recorded. So I think they're probably closer to 10 than we realize. Because if it's your brand, you do we realize. Because if it's your brand, you do it right. If it's your brand, you, you live it. I probably have the privilege of consuming more self-improvement content than somebody else because it's quite literally my job. So when I was more in the fitness space, I was doing way more stuff associated with fitness. Yeah, makes sense, it was my job. I had to look good. That was kind of the thing I have to be good at base. I was doing way more stuff associated with fitness. Yeah, makes sense, it was my job. I had to look good. That was kind of the thing I have to be good at self-improvement. So I have to study it. So I would say they're probably up there. They just don't market that.

Philip Pape: 25:59

Yeah, it makes sense and it's not always a sign of a lack of ethics, because a good coach is going to coach people across a variety of programming styles and whatnot and maybe follow something different on their own. Okay, we talked about sustainability. When it comes to sustainability like let's say, you get to a level where you're training four days a week, you're, you're sleeping a lot, everything else One of the biggest challenges, like my clients face all the time, is life. Like life gets in the way, and that's kind of going back to the prioritization thing, not just on a weekly basis, but randomly right, like randomly, things come up. What do we do? Like knowing that chaos is going to happen, what's your approach to being ready for that and having that resilience or flexibility which you kind of alluded to already?

Kevin Palmieri: 26:40

I get it out of the way early. So, no matter what happens it, it never goes away. That's the first exercise for me is the first thing I do. It is the foundation of my oh okay, yeah, first first time of the day. Yeah, perfect, it's okay, awesome, unless something is burning down at six o'clock in the morning, which it usually isn't.

Kevin Palmieri: 26:56

I'm, I'm going to do that immediately. I would say it's the flexibility to say you know, it's the flexibility to say you know, I really wanted to go weight train today, but what I'm going to do is I'm going to go outside and play with the kids for 30 minutes and burn some calories doing that. Or I know and again I know it's not one-to-one, but I know I didn't have time to exercise today, but I do know we're going to be mulching this weekend, so I'm going to be lifting a lot of stuff and I'm going to be moving around. It's that it's not the one or zero, it's maybe we get a half point today because we did something differently than we wouldn't have. That's usually where my mind goes.

Kevin Palmieri: 27:34

I think doing it as a like a pillar of a morning or a night routine is probably the best. But again, easy for the ultimate cat dad to say because I don't have. I don't have real children, so it's a little bit different, but that's what I would say. I would probably ask you that. I would probably turn the tables on you and say well, as someone who does have a family and children, what keeps you consistent?

Philip Pape: 27:56

Yeah, it's funny, the working out of the morning thing actually, I've been talking about a lot lately, including with regards to sleep, because it can improve your sleep to work out in the morning. Yeah, I'd like to say, just prioritize the one or two things you have to do that you are going to do. That is sacrosanct for you in your week. I can't imagine not training when, like I can't if I'm not on vacation.

Lisa: 28:16

I'm going to train, I'm going to.

Philip Pape: 28:17

God damn it. I'm going to find a way to train, but the problem with that is then maybe something else actually gets? You know, yeah, so, um, I guess the right answer that I would say is it's going to depend on the person, their schedule, their lifestyle, their like you said, circumstances and what works for you.

Philip Pape: 28:33

I think there's not. It's often an excuse, and so there's reframing involved. But we also have to meet people where they're at like. If you have a night shift job where you get five hours of sleep I'm not going to be the 20 year old influencer it's like, well, you need eight, you just need eight hours, like finding. And there's literally no way they're going to do it unless they change their job. And I'm not in here trying to, you know, change economic policy and get you a new job. Yeah, so right, so you got to do. But you better eat a lot more food hardly be dieting and you better work out maybe two or three days a week rather than five, because you need more. You know what I mean. So you have to make all those trade-offs.

Kevin Palmieri: 29:10

Yeah, well, that's the hard thing is there is a trade-off. So maybe you talk to your partner and you say, hey, I know things were a little haywire today. Is there any way I can sneak away for 30 minutes? I want to try to get a quick lift in, or whatever it is. I think that's a really big piece of it too is just having honest conversations with the people around you. If somebody understands how much something means to you, they're going to try to help you find a way to get that need met.

Kevin Palmieri: 29:36

Now, that can't always be it. If the kids are throwing up or whatever. Some days you're probably going to have to miss it. But I think that's the hard thing is to your point. Sometimes that's going to be the truth. Your circumstances, yes, we can overcome and work through circumstances, but not always. Sometimes circumstances dictate our reality and I'm never going to be one of those people who says, well, you know what, so you don't have any money or you don't have anywhere to live, it doesn't matter, go sell this and eventually you'll have a penthouse. Yeah, no, that's not the way I like to talk about it. Some days the circumstances will win. I think we just have to be honest and do our best to try to make sure the circumstances don't win sequentially, because that's when things get off. So just because today went off the rails, it doesn't mean tomorrow we can't try to have a more aligned, specific, intentional day.

Philip Pape: 30:29

You alluded to something really powerful there and that's communication, and I don't want to let that one go because don't take this the wrong way You're a lot like my wife in that you are like an empath in a way, and I've heard you and Alan talk about this on your show the different personality traits and strengths and whatnot. You seem emotionally connected to people in a way. Not a lot of folks are, and maybe you've developed that. But especially when it comes to men, men often have time, difficulty, being vulnerable and sharing, and that's something I've worked on.

Philip Pape: 30:58

Myself like to say that I'm kind of cold and calm and collected about things, which can be a strength when I'm like receiving, as a vessel, someone else's venting, like it just brushes off me, but it could be a downside when I don't respond or act like I'm listening Right. So communication could be the thing you're missing If you're listening to this, when everything seems to not be working with that balance and it could just just be someone else is kind of either holding you back, intentionally or not. You know. It could be a roommate who's sabotaging your eating patterns by putting candy on the counter or something simple like that.

Philip Pape: 31:33

You just have to talk to them. Easier said than done, it's a skill, but you talk about it all the time on your show because you cover much more than fitness and I think it's worth people to be aware of that. Right, it's not just these strategic things.

Kevin Palmieri: 31:45

No, there's a. Really. Essentially, what we're talking about is we're talking about identifying and adjusting resistance. That's all. That's all it really is and and environment and you use that word earlier, before I brought it up. Environment does create resistance, and one of the reasons environments create resistance is because of the people in the environment.

Kevin Palmieri: 32:04

So the last thing you're going to want to do is I'll give this as an example my wife and I have a practice where, if something is coming up and there is a conflict maybe I have a podcast scheduled or I'm supposed to do something I'll say on a scale of zero to 10, how important is this to you? If it's a 10, I reschedule whatever I have going on. If it's a five, we have a conversation and I say look for me, the thing that I'm doing is like a nine and a half. Is that okay? She said, yeah, absolutely. That's something you could do with fitness. Oh, I know, babe, I know we're supposed to have date night tonight. Is there any way that we can do it 40 minutes later so I can get a quick workout in? That's a completely different day. So flexibility not only falls on you, it also falls on the people around you, if they're willing to partake in the things that you value.

Kevin Palmieri: 32:57

But that's why I go back to the core values and the core beliefs. Core value for me is fitness. It is a core, freaking value. I love it. A core belief for me is I am a better man when I'm in better shape. I'm more fulfilled, I have more self-trust. I just am. I just. I have more to give, I have more to pour from. I believe that if I go to the gym, I'll be a better partner. So that's all in my head Anytime I'm making the decisions, or asking for grace when I need it, which I do often the other day.

Philip Pape: 33:44

Okay, she was with my daughters and I was a half hour away from recording a podcast with a guest a guest who we had rescheduled twice is a pretty big name. And going through my head is what do I do, right? Do I drop everything to fix the flat? Do I tell her just wait for an hour and a half, which you know? That's not the answer, or it was their middle ground. There was a middle ground. She understood. She's like why don't you just come pick us up, bring us back home, cause it was 10 minutes away? Fortunately, we did that, left the car. Later on, she drove me. I fixed the flat, no big deal.

Philip Pape: 34:10

But again you're right, you have to communicate. So that's important. It is, it's very important. Yeah, I want to address the kind of the other extreme of this, which is you alluded to your bodybuilding experience in the past and getting on stage Like what's the uncomfortable truth that people have to know for something like that? I mean, you know, getting shredded, whatever, even if they don't want to go on stage, but they want this quote unquote extreme level of fitness that most people, you know, they don't want to hear it, they don't want to know if they need to know it because you've been through there and they need to reconcile with that, so that maybe that's not the goal that they really want, or maybe it is it is the only goal, okay, if you want to get show ready, stage ready and you want to have a chance at at winning, so there's.

Kevin Palmieri: 34:50

So this is something I always say too. I think one of the most dangerous things in the world is seeing somebody on stage that and I'm putting this in quotes for those just listening that doesn't look like they belong on stage, when in reality they lost 150 pounds to have the confidence to step on stage. Good for you, that's potentially a different story, but if you're going on stage with the intentions of winning for me, I traded in everything else. I traded in. My mental health went absolutely down the can. I already had some mental health stuff. So it wasn't just that. My relationship was terrible and I had a super supportive partner, but I just had nothing to give. I was anxious all the time. I was a control freak because I had to know when can I get my next meal? Is there a microwave there? People didn't like me very much because we went to weddings and I brought my meals.

Kevin Palmieri: 35:42

People don't like that when you don't eat the $200 meal that they paid for understandably so yes I just think, unfortunately and maybe not everybody, but unfortunately I think it turns you into a relatively selfish human being, because not only are you not getting almost any of your dietary needs met, but you're quite literally putting your body into a state of flea, like your body needs more than you're giving it all the time.

Kevin Palmieri: 36:09

Yeah, your, your body's just trying to survive, so you're probably not going to be the best partner and and all that. I've met some bodybuilders who it almost doesn't even seem to affect. They're just like, they're just totally normal. But I think they're just cut from a different cloth. That maybe I wasn't. So it's that it's. I think it's more mental than it is physical. The physical part wasn't. Honestly, it wasn't that bad. The mental piece of the, of thinking of okay, it's 148 in 12 minutes I can eat. How many grams of rice do I have? How many grams of egg whites do I have? That is just. It's very, very, very constricting.

Kevin Palmieri: 36:48

And I definitely afterwards had a mild eating disorder for a couple months and I didn't realize it at the time, but my hormones were so messed up. I remember one day I was traveling for work and we went out to get breakfast and I was like, oh, it's nice. This is probably two weeks after my show and I got. I said, is there any way you can do a banana split? And they're like it's like eight o'clock, sir, can you? Maybe you can just put them on the pancakes. I'm like, yeah, we can do that for you, and I ate so much. I almost couldn't go to work that day because of how bad it was. So, yeah, there's a downside of getting to that point and I would really sit down and and get familiar with what you might have to give up. There's a lot of comfort that you have to give up to get that level of shredded and, honestly, it's not.

Lisa: 37:36

It's not worth it for 99.9 percent of people yeah hi, my name is l and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful little app called Macrofactor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense.

Lisa: 38:15

And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me, so thank you.

Philip Pape: 38:23

Yeah, that's the key. I mean, I've had a few other guests on the show or coaches in that space and it's the same thing. It's a very cautious lens on. First you need to be filtered out and be the 0.1% remaining who it's truly appropriate for, and then you have to filter out any obsessions, eating disorders and you get to the very, very tiny slice and you know again. I've met folks like Dr Eric Helms. We all know him and he's been successful as a natural bodybuilder, but he has a mental fortitude like no other you know he has a very special and it's like all it's his profession.

Philip Pape: 38:53

You know he studies it, so there's there's kind of an alignment there. Yeah, I think it's important for people to know that, because even what I've seen from clients and myself and you've probably experienced this is even a mild level of dieting and trying to get lean starts to pressure you toward that direction just a bit and you got to question why you're doing this. You really have to question it, because you can get to a plenty good enough physique, well above that point, without having to push it. Yeah, um, it's super important. I mean, I just went back to a bulking phase cause I'm like, I'm done, like this dieting thing I never, I never super enjoy it.

Philip Pape: 39:29

You know it works. You know how to do it. It's mental, Like you said, it's all mental. It's a body doesn't want to be there.

Kevin Palmieri: 39:34

Do you?

Philip Pape: 39:35

struggle with bulking. Do I struggle with bulking? Yeah, do you why? Because I'm a skinny, skinny guy.

Kevin Palmieri: 39:41

No, no, no, no. I mean mentally. Do you struggle with it mentally?

Philip Pape: 39:43

Yeah, no, I love bulking, do you? Do you? Have you found that side? I don't like it, you don't like it. No, I.

Kevin Palmieri: 40:00

Tell me more about and I don't mean it in that way. I was always the guy who had abs, even in high school. I was telling my wife this the other day. I said in high school on the baseball forums, people were accusing me of steroids in high school and I didn't know what the hell I was doing when I was exercising. I had no clue. I have really good genetics, so I've kind of always had abs and for me abs equal successful, that's what everybody's going for. So there's that piece of me right now who I'm bulking. I was 182 today and as I creep towards 185 at five foot six, five foot five, depending on the day, I start to look more and more like a meatball. And there's a piece of me that doesn't like that very much when I'm used to being shredded and vascular and all that. So I understand both. Yeah, alan, my business partner, six foot two, tall and lanky his words, not mine. He doesn't like being lean because for him it reminds him of when he was tall and lanky.

Philip Pape: 40:54

It's very interesting. It's very interesting because, yeah, these thoughts go through my head all the time and again. Anybody following a plan to change a body composition has to wrestle with both sides of the equation. I actually thought you were originally talking about the discomfort of the food side of things, but you're talking about getting fluffy. I actually did a whole podcast episode like why I'm getting fluffy before I get jacked, or something like that. Like a while back, uh, laying it out there because you're right, you have to embrace the other positives about getting bigger and forget that abs are even a, are even, are even a measure. They're not because the abs are gone pretty quickly.

Kevin Palmieri: 41:32

Yeah, and it's not about now, it's about next year.

Philip Pape: 41:37

Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri: 41:37

It's like right, what you're doing right now is not about right now, it's about next year, when yeah, it's like right, what you're doing right now is not about right now, it's about next year, when you do whatever you decide to do. That's what I keep telling myself. I don't just go lift heavy and eat food and stay high on protein and build muscle and then, when you diet down what you do every year, you'll look better. It just doesn't feel like it yet.

Philip Pape: 41:58

Yeah, there's different standards of look, of course, and also if you're in a relationship or what your goals are in life. I'm not trying to chase girls or anything. I've got my, my wife loves me whatever I look like, and some women like bigger guys too. But you know, two more thoughts come to mind on that.

Philip Pape: 42:13

One is that the when you look at bigger guys like powerlifters I'll say modern day powerlifters, not classic powerlifters who really packed on the weight there's this thought that if you can really pack on that muscle and train at that level for a long time and not even worry about cutting, you can vastly change your body composition and just be this bigger, leaner guy and then cut down to much higher weight and have abs, but you're the big, stocky, bulky with muscle type of guy. It takes time though. It takes like a good three to six years probably at least, of solid training to get there. The other thing is just recently the bulking recommendations were updated based on the science, like three new studies that came out that show that we can put on a lot more lean tissue than we thought at an aggressive rate of bulking. So you're going to have a bunch of people dreamer bulking now who maybe go too aggressive, and then they experience what you're talking about.

Kevin Palmieri: 43:07

I'm trying to do like a quarter pound a week Quarter pound a week, which is definitely on the lean end.

Philip Pape: 43:14

Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri: 43:15

I'm trying to do it relative and again, I know my body very well. There's a lot of stuff that goes into it. I respond really well to just a little bit of extra food because I'm so used to being in a deficit. I never bulked before.

Philip Pape: 43:30

I think I bulked one time in my life I didn't know what I was doing. Oh, even as a bodybuilder, you didn't go through an off season to do that. That was the first time.

Kevin Palmieri: 43:37

I ever bulked. I see Yep to do that. That was the first time I ever bolt. I see Yep, I wasn't show ready before I started, but I already had a six pack. I was in really good shape. Then I went and got a coach. Then I dieted down. I lost like 15 pounds and I lost a ton of muscle. Then I bolt and I was like, whoa, this is interesting, I'm super strong and I still have abs, somehow. That was so. That's, it's relatively new. I mean, that was only about six or seven years ago and yeah, and you know what people?

Philip Pape: 44:05

people have never experienced a bulk in that stand. A lot of women fall in that category, just to be totally honest, you've seen it with clients.

Philip Pape: 44:11

I'm of the mind now to encourage more and more folks to be open to it, and if you could time it right, you know, during the winter for example, yeah, it helps. But what I think a lot of people do is they cycle, they cut in bulk too frequently and it just they kind of don't go anywhere and that's almost like staying at your level five. When you're trying to get a level 10, you have to push through something. So actually, good segue to like how do you do that? If you're now you've reached some type of level 10, let's say you got your initial goal in your first year or two of training Does that become your new level five? How do we reassess?

Kevin Palmieri: 44:45

our goals to really keep pushing where we want to go. Yeah, I think as you become more competent, you become less okay with okay. So I think as you become more competent and you see what you're capable of, your average just increases. But I also think you and here's the this is why it's layered but I also think you're willing to let yourself go below your standard, because you also know you can get back above it. There's something about having the belief to essentially look to a degree the way you want. If you have the awareness, you have the work ethic and you have the strategy, it's way easier to do what we're talking about specifically when it comes to bulking. But when you feel like you're in control, I think that's when you can set another goal.

Kevin Palmieri: 45:34

It's almost like in the beginning. The first time I ever got in a car with my mom, I remember thinking to myself how do you drive the car so well? This seems impossible. Like I don't understand. I have taken this for granted. Eventually I got my license and I became a good driver and then I was able to do things that I could never do, like I could talk on the phone. I'm not saying to do this, but I could talk on the phone and drive. Cool, that became sustainable. I told my wife.

Kevin Palmieri: 45:58

Eventually I want to learn how to drift cars. That is something I've always wanted to do. Then that will become sustainable for me and it won't be that much of a challenge anymore. So me driving in a fast car might be boring Again maybe not the best example, but trying to create visualization with it. So, yeah, that as you become more competent, I think that you become in more control and when you have more belief, you're able to take bigger chances. Yeah, so if you have a level seven belief seven out of 10, and your own unique ability to create the physique you want, you might set a level nine goal, which for you is I'm going to look the best I ever have and maybe I'm ready to do a photo shoot or something. So yeah, I think as you build belief, your ability to set goals increases, because it's not as scary as it used to be. That's huge.

Philip Pape: 46:46

That's huge, and you can build that belief even with a fairly sustainable level of maintenance. Where I'm going with that is when somebody learns that they can control their body composition, even if they don't lose or gain. Even that's powerful, because so many people feel like they have no control at all. Right, like they just I'm going to gain weight constantly because age and everything else. I think that's super powerful. And I'm also thinking of self-determination theory, which has three components agency right, the ability to make your own choice. Relatedness like there's community. And competence right, and that's what you're getting at. Is that confidence that if I do this input, I'm going to produce this output. I've done it, so now I can go this other direction. That's kind of crazy to most people, like bulking. It's exactly what I'm thinking. I'm like I can gain 30 pounds knowing I could lose 40 if I had to. Yeah, so super powerful and liberating.

Kevin Palmieri: 47:33

I can imagine, like you said, I think for females specifically, bulking is hard, because if you don't and again, I'm not saying this, this is a fact but if you don't know how you got to where you got in terms of your leanness and the way your figure is, the last thing you want to do is lose that, because if it seems like it happened by accident, the last thing you're going to do is do something to the opposite front on purpose. Yes, so it makes it makes. It makes total sense.

Philip Pape: 47:58

I can completely understand if you, if you could dip your toes a little bit into the fat loss side of the equation, be like okay, I see how this works, but I don't like dieting, so let's, we've proven it.

Lisa: 48:07

Now let's go the other way Of course that happens a lot.

Philip Pape: 48:10

That happens a lot. You know, my goal with every client is to convince them to stop dieting after they start dieting.

Kevin Palmieri: 48:16

I respect it and you have. You have far more experience and feet on the ground in that than I do, for sure.

Philip Pape: 48:23

Oh man, this has been great. This has been a fun conversation, like pulling on so many threads for folks.

Kevin Palmieri: 48:27

I've enjoyed it.

Philip Pape: 48:28

I learned a lot. It's been fun. So you know what's coming my. My last question is just is there a question you wish I had asked that we didn't cover today, and if so, what would your answer be?

Kevin Palmieri: 48:37

Yeah. What is the honest truth about consistency that you're afraid to share but you think would be valuable? That would be the question. So when I was messing up in the gym and I wasn't very consistent for lack of better phrasing I did what we call the $100 habit. I went to my wife and I gave her a $100 bill and I said if I don't go to the gym for seven days in a row, I want you to rip this up in front of me. And she said there's no way I'm going to do that. And I said it's already done in my head. The pain of me seeing you rip up $100 in front of me is far greater than the pain of me going to the gym for the next seven days. It worked so well. If I just had we, it's a commitment device. That's what it's called. It's called commitment device. If I always had a commitment device, I would never miss.

Kevin Palmieri: 49:27

I think we're afraid to put ourselves under that pressure though I'm not saying you should necessarily but the reason when you're doing a bodybuilding show you don't miss is because you know you're getting on stage in your undies and you're either going to suffer now or you're going to get on stage and say, darn, I really, I really wish this went differently. So creating some level of necessity and some level of pressure could be positive. Just make sure you're doing it in the right amount, based on where you are. I knew I could go to the gym seven times. It's six minutes away. I make my own schedule. Get your ass together, kev. For you it might be three times, it might be one time, it might be if I don't pull my workout clothes out of the basement, like I've been saying I'm going to do.

Kevin Palmieri: 50:10

We don't get to go on date night this week, something like that right or if I don't get my running shoes out, I'm going to have to donate to a cause I don't believe in. That's one that works really, really, really well. So, yeah, something like that is usually pretty beneficial.

Philip Pape: 50:24

That's a recurring theme actually that I've heard from experts who talk about, you know, motivation being driven by more commitment than anything else, some sort of commitment, and I was just thinking, like this bulking phase I'm going through, I really want to put together a whole story and videos and show that I got from here to there and pushed all my lifts up and it's kind of a commitment to. I've got to stick with this crazy volume on my legs that is killing me to get there. Okay, cause I know so. Anyway, if you're listening, like, take what Kevin's saying and come up with a commitment device. It could be a date on the calendar that something's happening and there's no judgment, right. I mean it could be going to the beach and wanting to look good on the beach. It could be a wedding photo shoot or, like you said, any day-to-day, week-to-week commitment. So good, one man.

Philip Pape: 51:10

I appreciate it very much. I appreciate it very much. All right, man. So it's been a lot of fun, as always. I want people to be able to find you the best place. I know you're all over the place. I'll give them your private cell phone and they can call you.

Lisa: 51:21

But give me a reality.

Philip Pape: 51:23

Where do you want them to reach out?

Kevin Palmieri: 51:24

to. I just give out my email. My email is Kevin at next level universe dot com. If you have questions about anything, feel free to to reach out. Anything I could do to add value I yeah, I don't know what specifically it would be, because you know Philip's the the fitness engineer for sure. But you want to talk about podcasting or mindset or habits, whatever, I'm happy, I'm always a message away.

Philip Pape: 51:46

I'd love to chat Kevin's modest. He uh undersells himself, but I'll sell. I'll sell him for you guys. He's a great guy. He's a kind person too, A very good person, Um, and I genuinely mean that. So great to know you, Great to have you on here. I'm so glad we did this. Thanks for coming on Like.

Kevin Palmieri: 52:01

I appreciate you having me You're wonderful and anything I can do to add value, you know I'm always down. Talk soon, buddy.