Philip Pape: 0:00

Hello Wits and Weights listeners, I'm your host, philip Pape. Today I've got something special for you. It is a bonus episode featuring my recent appearance on your Diabetes Insider podcast with Ben Zeal. Now, ben was on the show, I was on his show. The episode we talked about on his show wasn't just limited to individuals with diabetes. It was really at a higher level, about blood sugar management and lifting.

Philip Pape: 0:25

Ben is a certified diabetes care and education specialist. He has type one diabetes, been living with it for over two decades, and so, yes, his show focuses on helping people with diabetes live their best lives through practical, science-based strategies, and he is very evidence based. I love it. When you check out his content or go to his Instagram, you'll see some counterintuitive things that nonetheless, are highly effective, and when he invited me on to talk about what's the number one habit for managing blood sugar and insulin resistance that we could nerd out on, I knew we were gonna have an amazing conversation. We absolutely did, and in this episode, you're going to discover what is that habit and, spoiler alert, it is strength training, why this beats cardio for metabolic health, the research on things like movement snacks for insulin sensitivity, and strategies and tips to build the habit of lifting into your routine, even if you've never done it before, even if you don't have diabetes. The principles we discuss apply to anyone who wants to optimize their metabolism, prevent insulin resistance, improve their health. The connection between lifting and metabolic health is incredibly powerful and we get into this from a practical standpoint but also nerd out on some of the science. And before we get to it.

Philip Pape: 1:38

If you enjoy this conversation and this podcast, you want to learn more from Ben. Check out his podcast, your Diabetes Insider. I'll include a link in the show notes and go ahead and follow that. But here we go. Here's my conversation with Ben Zeal on your Diabetes Insider.

Ben Tzeel: 1:53

What is going on? Welcome to this episode of the your Diabetes Insider podcast, where I've got my new friend here, who is a workout master, and I'm just excited to talk all things lifting training to make sure that you listening have better blood sugars as a person living with diabetes. What's going on, philip?

Philip Pape: 2:10

What's going on, man? And I'll add to that I want you to have fun. I want you to enjoy becoming a lifter, because it's fun.

Ben Tzeel: 2:15

I was gonna say lifting. I feel like it's something I talk about with people, we talk about with patients all the time where it's so critical to great blood sugars and people resist it all the time. Literally it's resistance training, but people resist the resistance training, even though from a diabetes standpoint it does so many amazing things. But I think, out of the gate, if someone's listening to this and they're thinking it seems really scary. I don't want to go into a gym, like what would be from your perspective. You know, as we'll dive into there first, then we'll circle back and kind of talk about your background too. But what would be your initial spot to send someone to say, hey, I want you to get into lifting, I want you to enjoy the process. Where would you start somebody out?

Philip Pape: 2:51

Yeah, I really would want to ask them like 20 questions to understand where that fear is coming from, because it could come from, you know, gym intimidation for females. You know, I see that a lot. It could come from a lack of confidence, a fear of injury a just, I see that a lot. It could come from a lack of confidence, a fear of injury, a just, I don't know what to train. Or hey, I've been to the gym for years and I don't get results. I hate it. Right, it's. Where does the fear come from? And then we dig in and say, ok, let's unlock the piece that will turn that around for you and help you not only reframe it but get the proof of the pudding by doing something for not too long of a period and getting the measurable results that tell you this thing works. And I think I'm going to keep doing this.

Ben Tzeel: 3:28

Well, and before we go in even deeper, tell people just your background. So then I was like, wait, he's talking about lift, he knows this stuff. But who is this guy? Tell a little bit about you and your background. So people are like, okay, I got it.

Philip Pape: 3:39

Sure man, I'm just a lifting enthusiast who loves this stuff, and it just happened to translate into other passions like podcasting and coaching and educating and teaching. So I'm my background is in engineering. I'm a very data analytical nerd type of guy, software engineering specifically and so I love how things come together and how to measure and systems based thinking, and I think the body lends itself really well to that kind of approach. And about five years ago, after 15, 20 years of doing all the things that don't work, I started to really get into what we call evidence-based fitness, evidence-based training. One of the most impactful books for me actually was the Muscle and Strength Pyramids by Dr Eric Helms and Andy Morgan, and then I found starting strength and then I found like Alan Aragon and Dr Bill Campbell and all those guys and it kind of led to a rabbit hole where they're all connected on podcasts and YouTube and everything and books where during the pandemic I started to learn a lot about proper strength training and then later on nutrition and then the podcast came out of that because I was so excited to say, man, you guys, you ever heard of this stuff?

Philip Pape: 4:49

Like this stuff works. People, you know I've been keto and intermittent fasting and like high reps at the gym and nothing's ever worked for me. And all of a sudden I found something that worked. Let me share it. And then, like six months later, someone said you got to be my coach. Like do you do that? I said I don't know what you're talking about. Let me go figure that out. And so I went and became a coach and so I've been doing that for like three or four years.

Ben Tzeel: 5:10

I was going to say the names you're dropping. First of all, I've got memory lane going on and second of all, I spent the time way back like Alan Aragon, I think I found in stuff when Lane Norton was coming out initially. I'm reading his stuff. This is part of for people listening, this is part of what led me to become a dietician and then eventually go into diabetes, because I'm learning all this stuff about lifting and nutrition and then I'm realizing this all has to apply to people with diabetes too.

Ben Tzeel: 5:35

And so you're naming these names and I'm over here just like holy smokes, this is just absolutely insane and so much fun and I'm just like there's so many things we could do. And then, with your engineer brain, I'm like so much offline I want to talk about. But besides that, you obviously were like, hey, I need to figure out the body of the system. I've got these names, I've got this nutrition background, I've got this exercise and training background and it obviously shaped you to where you are right now. But with the training going back to the initial stuff, with people getting into the gym, they're like, hey, I'm struggling.

Ben Tzeel: 6:02

You find out what that fear is or what that concern is, and let's just say, like we've talked to patients, we're like I don't even want to go into a gym. What would be a reasonable starting point for someone who's hey, I know I have diabetes, I know I need to do something to strengthen my body. What could somebody do? That would be super straightforward. That'd be a very easy starting point to start seeing quick wins. Man, it's not a friend.

Ben Tzeel: 6:22

I know an element of like training, lifting, periodization, and we're just like well, we got to go, we got to start small and then build our way out.

Philip Pape: 6:29

Yeah, I always like to meet people where they're at, so I do get this question all the time and that's why it's such a hard question because I know there's not a one size fits all answer Literally every day. You and I used to be kind of a dick about it and have my dogma and have my like this is how you do it. You gotta go do starting strength three by five. Pick up a barbell, like that is effective and it is effective, it's a great tool, but you may not have access to it, you may have gym intimidation, you may have a history of back problems, and the list goes on. So the question again is what is your goal? Like I have to start there. What is your goal? Are you asking me for a reason? Do you know the reason? Like, why do you think this is the right thing to do? And in your population it might be? For because I heard you say it helps with insulin sensitivity, right? Is that enough of a driver for you? It might be. It might be life-changing, right? If that medical issue, but you're still not going to believe it until you see it. So I I'm going to be again.

Philip Pape: 7:24

I have to ask questions of you when you can ask yourself, like, do you have a gym nearby or do you know what you're doing when you go there, like, do you understand the equipment and what to do If not? Personal trainer, a coach? Like, just start there right off the bat. You have to find a good one. Reach out to Ben, reach out to me, we'll point point you do a good one if it's not us, and use that to learn about the skill of lifting. It is a skill. It's like any skill. If you're going to pick up an instrument and learn a clarinet, like, where do you start? I don't know, probably find a teacher.

Ben Tzeel: 7:52

Yeah Well, I joke with people with diabetes. Right, it's the same. It's the same thing of hey, you get diagnosed, you don't know where you're starting at, there goes my camera and there it comes back. There, you don't know where you're starting at with the with diabetes, that you have to find somebody who does know. And if your doctor says, hey, you need to do this for lifting, you need to start getting some strength training in the adaptation of the body, and how important it is, it's just remarkable.

Ben Tzeel: 8:12

Like and I know you'll appreciate this given your data background there's a patient I can think of vividly, where he usually lifts four days a week. You know pretty active guy, you know late twenties, and his blood sugars were doing pretty solid. And he had one week, just one week, where he did not lift any weights at all. And this is just to illustrate for people from a blood sugar standpoint no weights, his average blood sugar went up 25 points. Everything else was the same, food was the same, sleep was the same, normal day to day, but just no lifting. And that was the difference.

Ben Tzeel: 8:38

And I'm like holy cow 25 points, almost an entire A1C point, and in that case, from a long-term diabetes perspective, that's enough to put somebody potentially at a much higher risk of long-term complication just from not doing something that it can doesn't have to take forever. So I think, from an efficiency standpoint, a lot of people get intimidated. I got to be in the gym for hours at a time. Everybody says I have to be there for 90 minutes or two hours, and I don't have that. I barely have 35 minutes. You know, what could someone do to become more efficient? So they kind of just if they get over that, that first hump of I'm going to try this, then how can I be in and out and efficient, make sure my body's safe at the same time?

Philip Pape: 9:13

Yeah, and that's a good one, because it goes to the question of when people say, can I start with bands or body weight or dumbbells, like if I had those at home, and to the topic of exercise snacks and being efficient from a very minimalist standpoint. And so I can go one of two directions there. One direction is, if you've got some basic equipment at home, you can probably do some movement patterns that will load you up with resistance and challenge your body enough to get the stimulus that you're looking for. That will start to inch down your blood sugar and all the other things. But you're going to outgrow them pretty quickly, but at least it gets you a taste for that. And then you can say what do I need next, at home or in the gym?

Philip Pape: 9:50

If you're going to a gym and you don't have a home gym because that's another hack we should get into for efficiency a big hack it's you can lift two or three days a week and I was looking at the insulin research as well and like one to two sessions a week is almost enough to give you a stimulus, but you also have to create consistency in a routine around it. So I do like the idea of like Monday, wednesday, friday, every week, for example, for 45 minutes 30 to 45 minutes and you could do three lifts in a moderate rep range and get all the intensity, volume and frequency you need as a beginner for the next six to 12 months to make massive progress and get what you need as a beginner for the next six to 12 months to make massive progress and get what you need. So just the premise that you even have to spend that much time is busted when you realize there's an efficient, minimalist way to do it that gets you the result.

Ben Tzeel: 10:33

And I feel like people are. So, oh my God, I have to be there and do 15 exercises Like no, just pick the ones that are the best bang for your buck, that are going to give you the most results from. Again, we always talk insulin sensitivity, but what's going to do that the most? Your compound lifts, right. Your squats technically. Your deadlifts right, things that are using multiple joints, which we can get into that in a second too, but those types of lifts are going to do a lot more than I'm going to stand here and do a bunch of bicep curls, which everybody thinks of when they think about the gym, especially when they don't go too often.

Philip Pape: 11:00

Yeah, I take it for granted, but I have to, like you, hammer home that message about compound lifts, movement patterns. It comes down to what do humans do with their bodies in real space, like with gravity on earth? And it's we bend to pick things up, that's the deadlift. We squat, we push, we pull right, and we pull in a couple of different ways, you know overhead and pushing vertically. So what accomplishes that efficiently? That uses the most muscle mass, that uses the most natural range of motion, and that's, like you said, the big compound lifts. Ideally with a barbell. And I say that because barbell is very safe, it's symmetrical, it's easy to load progressively and you can have spotter arms and things like that to make it safe, even if you're by yourself. You know a lot of people get intimidated like, oh my God, a barbell sounds like hardcore power lifter. You know I'm going to go do the machine, but you're going to save time, you're going to be able to load it, you're going to be able to progress session after session easily by doing those lifts.

Ben Tzeel: 11:54

Agree, totally, I think people from like to your point from a barbells are scary, dumbbells are scary.

Ben Tzeel: 12:00

They're also missing that when you're doing this, even if you're doing, for example, hey, I'm doing some sort of you know, bench press with a dumbbell, well, you're getting your chest, but you're also getting all the shoulder stabilizers and those little muscles are so hard to work outside of that. So again that bang for your buck. And the more muscles you're recruiting, technically diabetes wise, the more you're going to be saying, hey, I'm now sensitized, not just for the next 24 hours, but some people get benefits up to 72 hours and, like what you were saying with the research, if it's that big of an increase, why would you not do it to basically say I'm going to keep my blood sugar better by spending 30 minutes a few times a week. You could probably do 30 minutes without even thinking about it. You're probably scrolling on your phone for at least 30 minutes a day, if not longer. I think the average person spending four or five hours on their phone or on TV per day and I'm over here like I would lose my mind at that point.

Philip Pape: 12:44

Yeah, it is crazy that. So I can think of a client that I've been working with for a short time now who is pretty jacked on his own and yet he's been inefficient at getting there and after like 10 years of lifting we now have him stripping back to just four days. So for him he was going seven days a week, just four days doing a very simple I'll call it like a power building style program with waves. It gets a little more complicated for him versus a beginner, but he is like man. I never knew that you could actually like push harder and harder over time like this. Even though he had been able to build muscle all these years slowly, now he's like, okay, I understand what this means to actually load it up efficiently for my time and have the time to recover because he was missing that. He was missing the rest in between and that's where everything responds and the stimulus occurs.

Ben Tzeel: 13:35

Well, what do you think then for supersets like given efficiency, because some people are like, hey, I've got 30 minutes, I want to get in. You know you said three, but maybe I want to get in five exercises. What if I went one exercise right to the next and then rested for a little bit?

Philip Pape: 13:48

I actually I used to be against them until I found that their science for there's some, there's a study from 2014, I think and then literally last year, the mass team you know Eric Helms and those guys put together a really nice review of like a meta analysis sort of deal and they showed that for isolation and accessory type lifts, supersets have the same outcome as not supersetting for hypertrophy. So you can save a ton of time with supersets when it comes to smaller lifts, especially when you're doing antagonist supersets, so like biceps, triceps, right or quad tams and I actually love that as a hack, not for everything. So if you're doing like six lifts for the day and your first two are big compound lifts, you wouldn't superset those, but then you can superset your four smaller lifts. So I actually am a fan of those and I didn't used to be.

Ben Tzeel: 14:34

I was the exact same boat as you. I used to be like ew, why would I super? That sounds terrible. And then about, I think it was about four or five years ago I actually you probably know who Eric Cressy the name, yeah yeah. So I'd been following him since I was in high school because he did all the baseball stuff and that was my come up and so eventually I was like I'm going to just work with someone on their team while it's COVID. You know, I have access to a barbell, but that's like I have some plates and barbells to see what I can do. And he had everything programmed in like A1, b1, or not A1, b1, a1, a2, a3, or like B1, b2. So it was all like tri-sets or super sets and I'm like this is really weird. And I started doing it and I realized I kind of like this. Everything got so much shorter and so much more efficient.

Philip Pape: 15:22

I'm like I can be for those hacks all the time. In fact, the program I'm running right now is by Jeffrey Verdi of Schofield. It's called the Wayjacked Machine. It's actually for beginners, but I'm tweaking it a little bit like to challenge myself, because it does two things. It just does top set back off set, which means you're doing two sets instead of three. Most people think I got to do three sets, like that's the magic number, but you can actually go super heavy, modest rep range, like, say, four to six or six to eight, and then the second set. You drop the weight a little bit, crank up the reps and then you do a third AMRAP 15 seconds later. So you did so it's. It still ends up being two sets, but the AMRAP makes you go to failure. Right and you and by doing supersets, 45 minutes in and out for what would normally take 70 or 80 minutes.

Ben Tzeel: 16:15

I was that last AMRAP set and if someone's listening you're like what's an AMRAP? Amrap is as many reps as possible, so whatever you got left in the tank, you are just going and there's a ton of different methodologies for different types of reps. But that sounds brutal. It is, it is.

Philip Pape: 16:39

It's brutal but also is a good learning tool. So if you're listening and you're like I don't know what RPE 10 is, even for a little movement like a bicep curl, do your bicep curls and go to failure, then stop, then count 10 seconds and then get more to failure and you'll be like, oh wow, I could probably do if you could do like two more, you probably did it right. But if you do like eight more, that shows you weren't even close to failure.

Ben Tzeel: 16:52

That's the value and for failure. If you're listening, it's like what is failure? So, whether again, this could be related to bands, this could be body weight, this could be whatever is. When you're doing an exercise and you do it so many times that you effectively cannot do another one, you physically cannot do a complete rep of another one and to train to that point, of course, from a metabolic damage perspective, ideally you're gonna really get to the edge of what your muscle can do, and it should allow your muscle to then adapt better, grow better and then ultimately grow more, which, for again, people with diabetes.

Ben Tzeel: 17:19

Just having muscle mass at baseline is amazing because, of course, the lifting, the active lifting itself, is going to help from an insulin sensitivity standpoint, but then living with just more muscle in general will also make you more insulin sensitive at baseline because muscle is a more metabolically active tissue. So when the doctor's saying, hey, go, do some weights, and they're not telling you what to do or how many times to go or anything like that, just something is going to help you, because by getting stronger it doesn't matter how old you are. We've had patients that are in their seventies who are literally rock climbing and doing all sorts of crazy work while living with diabetes, doing amazing because they're able to say, hey, I've got more muscle in my body. My blood sugar, I think our A1C is like 5.7. Like that's almost non-diabetes range. So it is possible. It doesn't matter how old you are, it doesn't matter what you're doing with diabetes.

Ben Tzeel: 18:03

Highly recommend getting into the lifting and I want to really just go all in on the nerdy stuff because I feel like I never get to talk about this stuff and it's fun, and there are going to be people that are like wow, this is amazing. So, with methodology, your favorite split for lifting. I'd be very curious what you prefer and then what you've seen, because obviously everyone's got their own philosophy and if we're going for efficiency for a split, what would be your top choice?

Philip Pape: 18:26

Yeah, if you're a beginner, there's no question that three day full body is where it's at because of the efficiency and the frequency. Don't confuse that, though, with like a more advanced three day full body where you're doing different lifts each day. You're literally doing the same kinds of lifts almost every session and going up like you're squatting every session and going up in weight every session. Because you can. I can't do that. I can't go five pounds on my squat Monday, wednesday, friday. I would love to, but it's not going to happen. So once you get to that intermediate level, I just love the classic four day upper lower. I really do. However, that's you asked for a split, and I guess the question could be asked differently, in that the same split can have like five different approaches to progression with that split Right. So upper lower for me would be, you know, upper body Monday, lower body Tuesday, and then Wednesday, thursday, the same thing. A very simple approach for intermediates in that sense would be to use the four main lifts to use to focus on, like squat on Monday, deadlift on Thursday, or that's lower, but you know what I mean. Tuesday, friday and then Monday, thursday. You could do bench and an overhead press, for example, and then have all your development and accessory work support that. But I also like mixing it up, like today I did legs and arms and you know another day I might do back and arms right. Like it's kind of a weird overlap between the days, depending on what's recoverable, so like your biceps can recover literally the next day. So if you're trying to specialize and get bigger guns, you might do it three days. You might do bicep work three of those days. So upper lower is great. Push-fall legs I'm less a fan of just because it gets a little more complicated to get the right level of frequency in there for most people. But if it's well-written it's fine.

Philip Pape: 20:03

And then one of my favorite splits of all time that's a four-day is called the conjugate method, the west side barbell method by Louis Simmons, and this is a method used by guys on gear that were massive power lifters that will never be in their world. I love the history of this stuff though, man, it's fun to talk about. But their adapted method is pretty simple. You've got two max effort days and two dynamic effort days, and on the max effort days you are maxing out one of the main lifts every single week, but you're rotating for like six weeks between the variance of the lift.

Philip Pape: 20:35

You can't max out your back squat Monday for six weeks in a row. You just can't. That's too systemically fatiguing. But you can max out your back squat, then you can max out your front squat, then you max out your box squat, then you can max out your you know squat and the body's perceives that as enough variation that it's not nearly as fatiguing and it's more recoverable. It's fascinating. So you do that Monday, tuesday is like lower upper, I think, kind of the opposite, I believe. And then Thursday, friday is dynamic effort, where you focus on speed and volume. So then you're doing like 10 sets of two far sub maximally, like 65% or 70% of a bench press. Anyway, I'm getting into weeds, but like those are my favorite splits and yet there are a million more that work effectively.

Ben Tzeel: 21:18

And that's the thing that's important, to mention it really out of the goal, right, you could pick the three full body ones. If you're just listening to this, you're like I'm just trying to get into a true routine, but there's really no wrong answer, except for training the same thing consecutively, because rest is so important, and, to your point, with what you like. I love four days upper lower, and for me, I'll throw cardio in there, which I feel like we should probably address at some point, because cardio is kind of a big deal, which I don't like it, but I have to do it right. So, with rest though, because while we're on that topic, rest and your body, you know not frying your nervous system effectively what would you say from a rest perspective If someone's like, hey, I'm starting out, or I've been at this for a while?

Ben Tzeel: 21:59

Like, do you typically recommend, like, a deload week for people to be more chill? Do you recommend, just straight up, not training certain days of the week or, you know, certain weeks of the year? I've heard of people doing 10 weeks in a row and taking a week off.

Philip Pape: 22:18

Like what have you found to be, in your experience, the best from a recovery standpoint? I think the question is what benefits your recovery the most? And is it your training program? Because I think sleep and food actually go up above that and we often go to training modifications. In fact, the idea of a deload again.

Philip Pape: 22:28

I used to be a fan of deloads. I'm less and less so, the more I realize you can intelligently program to avoid them altogether and to kind of build in the recovery, either through waves or resets or what have you, which are kind of like deloads, but without calling them that and without like half-assing your intensity that week right, which a lot of people do during deloads. So you keep the muscle mass, you keep the stimulus, but you still get recoverability. But I seriously do think people don't eat enough and they don't sleep enough, and I would look at that first. If the assumption is, hey, eating at least my maintenance calories, I'm eating plenty of carbs, I am getting six and a half to seven hours of sleep at least, because, let's be honest, most people are not getting their eight hours Then I would say okay, if your low back is getting really fatigued or your shoulder is starting to bother you.

Philip Pape: 23:17

Is that why you're asking Are you feeling sore? Are you feeling like every session is a burn? You shouldn't feel like things are burning and things are sore all the time. You should feel pretty good getting into the next session if you're recovered and if you're not, that's telling you there's either.

Philip Pape: 23:34

Probably too much volume, I want to say. But it could be that your form is bad on a certain lift, you know, start to get that tendonitis because you know your grip is wrong on your squat, like little things like that. We were joking about physical therapy before the call and, like those guys are the masters at understanding biomechanics and a lot of people have little things that are off, it's not a big deal usually because the human body is great at adapting, but if it's enough out of sync, you know, if you're constantly knees too far forward on your squats and then you start getting achy knees, there's probably a connection there and that's going to hold you back and also impede your recovery because it's just sapping resources, it's stressing you out, it's giving you inflammation, all of that stuff.

Ben Tzeel: 24:14

Well, and I was going to say with the sleep aspect, whenever people ask what's the number one thing that's most underrated for blood sugars, I always say sleep, like blood sugars alone, and then that'll send you on a roller coaster where the recovery from the workouts aren't going to be as good because your blood sugar is probably running higher, because you're insulin resistant now, and then everything's moving slower, the nutrients aren't getting where they need to go to help you recover faster, and then everybody's always like oh, I just want to have my numbers. Good, but sleep. Literally I feel like sleep and then eating enough, and I would say from our practice, 90% of people are not eating enough. Yes, I mean yes, and I don't think I'm sure you've seen the same thing where just people and I would imagine your more general population versus diabetes, but they think, oh, less is better, I'll lose weight better, but that's just not the case.

Philip Pape: 25:02

Yeah, they're either not eating enough or I have quite a bit of clients who they're eating enough and their macros are skewed for what they need for recovery. Like some people love their protein. I mean, usually people don't get enough protein, but a lot of guys, especially up in the 220, 250, 300 grams of protein, but a lot of guys, especially up in the 220, 250, 300 grams of protein I'm like, okay, dude, you've got 300 grams of protein and 120 grams of carbs. Let's balance that a little more and still see what happens. And I know you're afraid of gaining weight and you guess what? You're going to gain some scale weight because you're going to have more glycogen and intracellular fluid and got content from the carbs. So it's not fat. You're going to gain that. Let's just accept it. But tell me how you feel once you do that. And invariably it's like, oh my God, within two days I'm like, wow, I'm getting more reps, I'm feeling better, like all of a sudden the 3 pm energy crash is gone. And that translates to what you asked about, which is recovery and your ability to perform in the gym. So you mentioned cardio. You know like doing too much cardio can impede recovery, but also people aren't doing enough recovery focused movement, and I don't just mean walking phantasm you talk about it all the time, I'm sure.

Philip Pape: 26:07

Yes, a study that I just came across. It's from 2022. And I did a podcast about it coming out very soon. It might be out by the time this is out on walking snacks, getting up for two minutes every 30 minutes, and they compared that to being sedentary across a like seven and a half hour window. So like sitting all day versus walking every half hour, versus 15 body weight squats every half hour. And the most impactful positive change was the walking. And what they found is sitting, compared to an average person, reduces muscle protein synthesis, reduces blood volume, increases insulin resistance from the sitting alone, like it has a net effect, right. Conversely, adding in the walking has a net opposite effect, like beyond the baseline, of increasing muscle protein synthesis massively. So there's some fascinating mechanisms, ben, related to mTOR right, which is the signaling pathway for muscle building, muscle protein synthesis, for the blood flow, for the insulin sensitivity. All of it just from breaking up your sitting, like that is an easy hack for people to do.

Ben Tzeel: 27:13

So I need to just make sure I understand. So you're saying two minutes of walking per half hour of sitting. Effectively, that's it and that was wow. So just doing the math on that, I'm just doing this. So it's four minutes per hour compared to seven hours of just straight sitting. So we're talking like half an hour total of walking.

Ben Tzeel: 27:28

Yes, so if someone is, if you are listening to this and you are hearing that all you've got to do is just get off your butt every now and then and that there was positive impacts on, yes, your ability to recover muscle wise, but also your blood sugars will be better just by virtue of walking for two minutes every half hour 28 minutes than having a two minute timer and just saying, hey, let's go if it's possible for at work, because we talk about OK, after a meal, are you going to walk or are you just going to walk in general to hit a certain number of steps and we've talked about a lot of times on here you sit on an airplane, you can't move for three hours, your blood sugar rises because you can't move or you're in a car. This solves a lot.

Philip Pape: 28:09

And I just text to do the study. Yeah, it's by more at all, 2022. It's like shocking. It's shocking 47% average increase in myofibrillar protein synthesis from adding in those super easy snacks. And I actually downloaded, and I downloaded an app called Step Stand Up from the app store like two weeks ago after I learned about this and I'm doing it myself now more because it's just that powerful.

Ben Tzeel: 28:32

That's what I feel. Like that, if there's any takeaway, if there's only one takeaway, I think it has to be that because that's going to help blood sugar and your muscle. If you don't do that, I don't know what to tell you. Like you're literally just not doing yourself any favors, Cause it's also not like you're walking, it's not like, oh, every 30 same time. It's so important to know, because this is any anyone listening to this could do this, whether you're seven years old or whether you're 77 years old. Like that is just wild.

Ben Tzeel: 29:03

And piecing all of this together with you know my discussion about the patient earlier who didn't train for a week and his blood sugars went up. And with this you're going to be resistant If you don't stand up. Just get up and just move just a teeny little bit. And then also, I would imagine you know recovery wise, it's going to help because of the I always call it MPS, but muscle protein synthesis, at least what I say. And everyone's like what are you talking about? And I'm like, oh, sorry. And you bring up mTOR. I'm like rapid myosin, yes, yes, of all my grants, oh, but yeah. But so back to, I guess, if we go to cardio just in general as a topic, we kind of glossed over it before. I don't love cardio. Some people love cardio and they're blessed and I'm grateful for them.

Philip Pape: 29:39

I'm with you, man, I'm with you. I don't like like just metronomic cardio.

Ben Tzeel: 29:43

Yeah, I'm just like, and some people say, oh, I do cardio because I walk, and that's fair, but I feel like doing some sort of you know, moderate to vigorous cardio once a week diabetes or not, I feel like is at least going to be important, because we do want our hearts strong. So, from what you've seen, what you've personally experienced, what tends to be A your favorite, but then B what you find most effective for duration.

Philip Pape: 30:03

Yeah, my new favorite that I think is highly effective for lifters is sprinting, and we can talk about the protocol. I actually stole it right from Brad Kearns, who co-wrote a book with Mark Sisson called Born to Walk. Talking about which was like a counter to born to run and the idea that we actually are designed to walk and most people shouldn't be running unless they are in it for competitive reasons, and they really learn how to run properly with their feet and the right foot, and all that Because otherwise we know it's the highest and one of the highest injury, if not the highest injury sports other than like soccer. By the way, lifting is the lowest injury sport, just to throw that out there. So here's the thing I used to run a lot. I used to train for like half marathons. I didn't actually compete in them, but I would get to long mileage week after week and I remember the shin splints and I remember the hunger and I remember like it not helping my body composition or weight in any way, and we see that all the time. So, conversely, we know that walking is tremendously valuable and we can make walking harder, and so my first step for your audience is like baby steps, you know, if you're already walking, how do you make that harder? So it's kind of a form of cardio that helps your VO2 max and your heart rate, and I would add rucking. I would add a rucksack to the mix. Right Weighted vests are all the rage now in the menopause crowd, for whatever reason on social media, but I like just as classic backpack on the back. Inclines walking faster. All of that is going to. You know, burn a little more calories, increase your heart rate more, get you closer to that zone too.

Philip Pape: 31:26

If that's important to you, I will say like just getting 10 to 12 or 10K ish, seven to 10 K steps a day, plus lifting, is enough to have superb cardiovascular health. Like that is enough to have a be in the elite not the elite, but like being the 5%. But if you want that like elite level sprinting or anything that has a concentric but not an eccentric movement in the cardio method is very recoverable. So what I mean by that is running has an eccentric because you're constantly slamming on the ground and loading against gravity and you're tearing muscle fibers and and and and. A bike, an assault bike, a prowler, push a prowler or sled, pull swimming, you know anything that's like you're pushing but not nothing's coming back at you, right? You're not doing burpees, you're not doing CrossFit, and apologies, if you love all that stuff, there's a place for it, but seriously it can mess with your recovery. So anything like that could be great.

Philip Pape: 32:22

But I like sprinting, and sprinting not just on flat ground but even using a bike once or twice a week. The protocol looks like this it's 10 to 20 seconds all out, six times the recovery, four to eight sets. That's it Simple. So if you can do a minute, if you can do 10 seconds which is going to be hard the first time you do it 10 seconds, you rest at least a minute. You try to get four to eight sets. You're probably only going to get like four or five the first time. Next time you do it now you get to. And that's a fantastic guy. He did a whole episode with Brad on that topic and I did my own later on sprinting. It's awesome.

Ben Tzeel: 33:04

Tell me, have you tried a wind gate bike? No, what is that? Oh my God, I don't know if they make them anymore. So way back in the day this is. I don't think I've ever even talked about selling remotely.

Ben Tzeel: 33:12

Closest way back, I used to do exercise, science, research when I was an undergrad and they had one you described where you're pedaling really fast but then they like I don't know if it'd be another person or someone, but we like push this thing and then this stack of weights just falls and it makes your resistance on the bike like 40 times harder than it was before and they can measure your like power output and all sorts of other stuff. It was insane Cause like you think, oh, I'm pedaling, and then suddenly boom, now just make it the maximum effort you've ever had to go while there's weight there. It was miserable. It was like miserable but also amazing at the same time for people who love this stuff, like us, because I'm like this is so cool, yet also so weird. But it made me really happy when you're like I do intervals or, like you know, sprint intervals, so I'm like that's the only cardio I can tolerate, because otherwise I go nut like yeah no, I hear you, man like.

Philip Pape: 33:59

I even did a vo2 max test and I hated it because they make you just keep running and running until failure. I'm like this is not what I want to do.

Ben Tzeel: 34:07

Can we be done, please Like I.

Philip Pape: 34:10

Mental it's mental.

Ben Tzeel: 34:12

Yeah, incline walking, I think, is a great one for people, or if you live in a hilly area, which I certainly don't, but you know, incline walking Fantastic, incline walking, fantastic. And then I for me, like, I'll personally do intervals, I'll do treadmill I don't love it, but I'll go slight climb, but I'll go a minute on, a minute off, just because I want to try to stretch a little more. And then I'll only do like, like you said, I think you, you said four to like six sets. I go up to, I think, eight total and I'm like that's good, I'm good at that. I'll go fast for one, I'll go chill for another, and, and then I did it, I'm good, I did my cardio for the week. I can incline walk the rest of the time and I'm good. It's just.

Ben Tzeel: 34:46

And I think having that is important, I think because from especially again, diabetes wise, because there's a propensity of, hey, you could be at risk for certain cardiovascular things you do want to make sure your heart is as strong as possible and lifting, lifting for you. But having that really specific, hey, I go harder intensity once a week. Or maybe you play basketball, maybe do something, some sort of sport, some sort of I'm raising my heart rate up during this concerted short time frame is more than what most people will get and, honestly, it's all you need. Everyone thinks, oh, it's be an hour run. No, you don't do shit for an hour.

Philip Pape: 35:15

No, I would add to that like track, track what you care about, like, obviously, here the diabetes world. You're tracking a lot of metrics, but even day-to-day metrics with your wearables, because VO2 max is not something that the average person can track. But what can you track? You can track your resting heart rate. That's a very nice, really high proxy indicator of your heart health, to be honest. And here's an interesting story.

Philip Pape: 35:37

So I remember a guy, jerry, who's a longtime lifter, lots of muscle mass. If you saw him you'd be like I wouldn't want to be even thinking of starting a fight with this guy. Right, like just big guy, big beard, gentle as a bear, as teddy bear, that kind of persona. Right, he was a lawyer and he sat down all day and he got 3,000 steps a day. So we started working together.

Philip Pape: 35:56

I said, man, this is like low-hanging fruit, let's crank that up. He's committed, right, long-time lifter, he knows how to just do it, what I tell him to do, but not every client's like that. And he cranked it up to 8,000 steps and within weeks his heart rate dropped by 15 beats a minute his resting heart rate, because it was hovering around the 70s or almost 80. It wasn't great and he had excess body weight to lose. But he hadn't even done that yet. Later on we lost body fat and then everything else improved even further. But just the walking man like got him down to you know like 50, 55 for a big guy with extra weight and muscle.

Ben Tzeel: 36:29

Yeah, Well, and walking to that point too, I don't think I ever tracked it until COVID hit and I realized I'm like I don't go anywhere, how many steps am I getting? And I, you know, you carry your phone everywhere with you and I look I'm at like 2,400 steps, and so I started getting really religious with it at that point. So then I started setting the bar a little higher and a little higher. Now you know, I'm probably averaging close to nine or 10,000, which is great.

Ben Tzeel: 36:51

But just that little teeny tweak can, in combination with getting, ironically I'd start putting like my computer most of the time up, and so I'd have one of those standing desks and so I would bat, plus the steps, I lost probably like six pounds just from that, nothing else. And I'm like and it's not like I'm putting all this effort in or craziness in, and it's. I think that's something people need to remember is it doesn't have to be difficult, it's just little teeny things that you're adjusting and just like diabetes, you tweak a little bit here, you're tweaking a little bit there, and suddenly you look up and your average blood sugar is 130 and you're feeling great, your A1C is great and your heart rate's great. And your doctor says why are you even here, like you're good man?

Philip Pape: 37:27

Yeah, I think two fun facts about that in. You know the component of metabolism that we call NEAT, right, non-exercise activity thermogenesis is walking is a big part of that. There's a landmark study that was done I can't remember the guy that was done, I can't remember the guy's name, is a weird name, starts with an F, but a landmark study that showed a 2000 calorie difference or variance between the most sedentary individuals and the most active individuals. Everything else controlled, like these weren't even lifters Okay, these are, you know, you sit at a desk all day versus you're a shop clerk, versus you're in construction. And they found something like an 800 calorie jump for the shop clerks, shop clerks, and then another 1200 calorie jump for the construction workers, just from their jobs, right, just from moving all day. And so it shows you how powerful that lever is.

Philip Pape: 38:13

That's one fun fact, just to show you how much control you have over it. The other fun fact is that during fat loss, right when you're trying to lose weight, or maybe you're doing it accidentally we unconsciously reduce all of that, like people don't realize how much you reduce it, and you can kind of tell a step count. But it's not all. It's. The story isn't all in the step count, because some of it is the lots more sitting, lots less fidgeting, you know, and then all the cascade of negative effects that come from that we just alluded to with the two minute snack things. So if you are in a calorie deficit and trying to lose fat, like, consciously and intentionally, incorporate movement, because that'll be a game changer.

Ben Tzeel: 38:46

Well, and I think to your point where you're saying things just kind of shut down that you don't expect. It goes back to the sleep thing again, where I tell people I'm like sleep is important for blood sugar and they're like, well, why? I'm like you're more insulin resistant. But if you dig deeper into that, it goes back to subconsciously you don't want to be moving because you're tired, so you're sitting more, so you're sitting more. Therefore, you're going to get more resistant. You know, like you said now, imagine you're in a deficit and you didn't sleep well. Well then that's just double the fun. And I think you've probably seen the study where the people that are the interrupted sleep in a deficit versus the people that slept through. Oh yeah, the amount of muscle you lose versus the amount of fat you lose If you don't sleep well or you get horrible sleep while you're in a deficit, you're going to lose predominantly muscle. And that, to me, just that. That changed a lot for me. When I read that I was like holy smokes, this is terrible.

Philip Pape: 39:33

Yeah, actually, on that note, the two minute exercise snacks also led to greater lean mass preservation. But what you're talking about with sleep man, tell me if you know all the links I'm sure you do with the diabetes research. But in addition to the lean mass loss, what you said, two other things. One is it ramps up your hunger hormones just because your body is like, okay, you have so many resources, you're depriving me here, I'm going to make up for it over here. You need to eat, and that's one. And then the visceral fat storage. Even all things equal, if you're both like in two groups that gain weight during that are gaining weight and one is sleep deprived, they're going to store that fat in their visceral, you know dangerous abdominal fat. And then that ties into insulin as well and inflammatory markers too in the blood.

Ben Tzeel: 40:17

Yeah Well, and then once those inflammatory markers come in, if you're type two listening well, then your insulin signal is going to be kaput, or at least a lot less effective than it usually is. And if you're type one, then it's like, okay, the insulin's there, but it's not going to work as effectively. So, either way, it's just an absolute shit sandwich, to say it really nicely. So like, sleep is so important and no one gets why I say it. But this is why, man, this is wild. I'm loving this stuff and I also love that we can just nerd out and go in this major depth on these rabbit holes with all these different protocols, and I'm like we're probably just scratching the surface of what we could be doing.

Philip Pape: 40:47

Oh, just scratching the surface. So many mechanisms under there, man.

Ben Tzeel: 40:49

I was going to say, and then I'm over here, I'm just like we could go all the way down into the biochem stuff too, and start doing that wrong thing.

Philip Pape: 41:02

man, all the haters are going to come out.

Ben Tzeel: 41:03

Well, I was going to say I'm over here.

Ben Tzeel: 41:05

I'm like do I do it or do I not? Or do I save it for another one? Then part of me is like I almost wanted to save it for another one. We can just go super, have a nerd edition episode, or we're just only science and nothing. They'll be like this is the greatest thing ever. But what would you say? I feel like wrapping up wise. What would you say is probably like the big takeaway outside of the snacks I think the walking snacks is. That, to me, was just absolutely massive. But what would you say? Biggest takeaway for someone who's listening, who's saying, hey, I love all this stuff, I want to get you know, I'm started, I want to get really into it. I want to go from that first level to that second level that, hey, I'm actually enjoying this, I'm strong, I see the returns. What would you say is the biggest thing that they're going to need to do to get that jump to happen?

Philip Pape: 41:50

Okay, so clarify, we're saying not beginners, we're saying people who are dabbling.

Ben Tzeel: 41:55

They listened. They're like I'm super motivated, I love this. They start going. Now they're going three times a week. They've done it for three months Like I want to get to that next level. They're starting to see some of the returns but they haven't seen like that huge jump yet. What's going to help them make that jump?

Philip Pape: 42:07

Yeah, I think they got to tie it to something that is super meaningful for them, and I say that because the vast majority of people can't lift for a long time. For its own sake, I think, like I think not everybody is a lifter, let lifter. Let's just be honest. They're not just in it. I am like I could just lift and not care why. I just love doing it. But if you have whether it's a sport or for physique reasons or for your health reasons, like with diabetes, you guys have a great why. Right, you have the blood markers you can track over time.

Philip Pape: 42:35

I would start there, because that's going to lead to the next question of okay, how do I? What kind of training program should I look for? How can I it up? I'm a big fan of like not sticking with one thing for a huge amount of time. I don't want to program hop, but like I'm not going to go longer than, say, 12 to 24 weeks before I look for a different approach, if only to get the variety and the variance and the stimulus to kind of, you know, strengthen up those weak muscles and give me a little bit of different exposure to movement patterns and help with my skill and all that fun stuff. So look at it as like a lifelong process of learning and personal growth. And then follow my podcast. That's what I'm going to say. To do is follow my podcast, man. You'll learn a lot that way too.

Ben Tzeel: 43:16

That was going to be. My next thing is when people want to learn more and go into the weeds on this stuff and they're like Ben I love diabetes, but I need to listen to something else too. Where what is? I mean, it's obviously on the screen, but if someone's listening to this instead of watching it, what is the podcast and where can they find it?

Philip Pape: 43:31

Yeah, it's called Wits and Weights. It's on all platforms. I'm sure we'll include a link and I can even throw you some of the cool episodes we referred to here about like sprinting and whatnot. What you're going to find is two things. You're going to find a whole library that can feel overwhelming of really good stuff, and so I want you to reach out to me and say, philip man, you've got 400 episodes. Where do I even begin? And I'll ask you a question to give you an episode. And then, secondly, you're going to hear episodes where I just nerd out on stuff that I feel like no one's going to care about, but I care about, and then people say that was my favorite episode, like I just did one about the argument that calories aren't real. Have you ever heard this argument, ben?

Philip Pape: 44:04

I don't know if I have now See, it's a tease this argument and I get them on like YouTube and stuff occasionally. They're like well, calories are just an abstract measure, like we don't eat calories. We eat food and like, okay, I had to do an episode about that and so it gets all into like the history of engineering and science and why we measure things, and like the proxies for you know energy and horsepower, and like kilowatts and all this stuff and how that led to us learning about calories and why calories are so important today and a huge game changer if you can understand how many calories you burn, which is a mystery to so many people. Ben, it's a mystery. Oh yeah, that's like the number one unknown people have is I don't really know how many calories I burn. Are you telling me that's important? Yes, it's important. So, anyway, that's a diatribe on like what you're going to find on my show.

Ben Tzeel: 44:48

I was going to say that that conversation. I'm over here just like people don't know that a calorie is. You know when you burn and it, you know, turns the water up. One. And then second, I'm like I don't think people realize that calories on a label are really a thousand.

Philip Pape: 45:03

I don't think Kilocalories, capital calories.

Ben Tzeel: 45:06

Yeah, it's just oh, man yeah.

Philip Pape: 45:09

You know what it is Because we can do a whole separate episode about myths. What it is if people are frustrated. If you're frustrated, you've tried to say, lose weight and people told you need to be in a calorie deficit. You're like I am in a calorie deficit and I'm not losing weight. You just now, in your head, violated the principle that calories matter. Yeah, but in reality that's not the problem. The problem is you actually don't know how many calories you burn and you don't know how many calories you're eating most likely too.

Ben Tzeel: 45:32

And metabolism is probably in the toilet and there's oh man, that'll be where we need to do another.

Philip Pape: 45:37

Yeah.

Ben Tzeel: 45:37

We need to do a myth one. We need to do a fat fat loss one. Those are fun, man. Those are fun, so much fun. But no, I'm so grateful, philip, to have you on here. I'm going to say, yeah, I was like, cause my dad gum camera, there we go. I'm so excited that we got to do this.

Philip Pape: 45:52

This has been amazing, definitely need to do another one of these. This is so fun, and that was my conversation with Ben Zeal from your diabetes insider podcast. We had such a blast nerding out about strength training, metabolic health, all the fascinating research on movement and blood sugar management that is applicable to everyone. If you want to dive deeper into his content, check out his podcast, your Diabetes Insider, in your app or click the link in the show notes. I think a lot of his insights are really valuable for anyone who's trying to manage your blood sugar better.

Philip Pape: 46:21

And speaking of metabolic health, I just released a new video on YouTube that perfectly complements today's conversation.

Philip Pape: 46:28

It is all about how to stop prediabetes and insulin resistance without cutting carbs.

Philip Pape: 46:33

It is based on the longer episode that came out, and I now have a YouTube channel with shorter videos that get right to the point in about five to 10 minutes, if that is your thing, if you have a short attention span, which I do or just looking for a quick hit reminder refresher where I break down evidence-based strategies that work for whatever it is in this case, reversing pre-diabetes, and then the role of strength training and nutrition strategies to optimize your training, your metabolism, without having to give up entire food groups like carbs.

Philip Pape: 47:05

So find that video on my YouTube channel using the link in the show notes. You can search for my channel, wits and Weights, on YouTube, but easiest thing is to tap that link in the show notes. If you're not subscribed yet, please do so. It's going to help us out. It'll get you notifications of more of these short form visual style videos that compliment the podcast and, of course, help others find the videos as well. So use the link in the show notes to go find that video and stay tuned. Follow the podcast to catch Monday's episode. I'll talk to you then.