Philip Pape: 0:01

A 515-pound raw squat at 181 pounds body weight. That's the all-time world record for women. And my guest today hit that lift using a personalized version of the conjugate method, which many people have heard of, but may not understand why or how to apply it to their training. She also thinks D loads are one of the most misunderstood aspects of training, and most of you are doing them wrong. So we're gonna break down exactly how conjugate training works, what she does for recovery given the massive stress from her training, and how her nutrition shifts from off-season to meat day. Whether you compete or you just want to get stronger without overtraining, this one's for you. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Hape, and today I'm excited to be joined by Steph Mager, a power lifter who squatted 515 pounds raw at 181 pounds body weight, an all-time world record. She trains at Hellbent Barbell, right here in Connecticut. So we're in the same state. Funny story about how we connected, we'll get to that. And she uses a conjugate style system. If you guys are familiar with Westside, uh Louis Simmons and some of that, or even Andy Baker, who I've talked about. And she's competed across multiple federations, including USAPL, IPA, PLU. And we're gonna get into the conjugate method, what it actually is, how it differs from, say, a percentage-based or traditional split-based program, what a D-load should look like for lifters and strength athletes, how her nutrition changes between meat prep and off season, which could be relevant for anybody who's trying to use periodization, and what she's learned from bombing out of meats and coming back stronger. Steph, it's great to meet you and welcome to Wits and Weights.

Steph Mager: 1:54

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Philip Pape: 1:57

So there is a little funny story about how we met. Your mother is a healthcare professional who is helping me with my MRI. Yes. And somehow we got talking about powerlifting. She said, Well, my daughter is a power lifter and she has the world record for squad. I'm like, what? I gotta look that up and reach out to her. So, and I'm glad you didn't see like who's this creep contacting me.

Steph Mager: 2:18

Seems like she told me right away. She like called me and she's like, Oh my god, I have this networking thing that I'm just doing. I'm just talking. Like her thing is like she just likes to ask people what they do for a living, and then we'll bring us up, any of her children up in any conversation where it flows.

Philip Pape: 2:36

She's a great mom. That's looking and it led to this opportunity for both of us. So exactly. Yeah, so I mean, you're like, I would say among the elite now in terms of the world record. And I think what I'd like to know, most of my questions come from a selfish perspective because I know the listener is thinking the same thing, is what like what does it mean to train to win at that level versus just train for fun or train to get stronger? You know, are the what are the differences?

Steph Mager: 3:00

That's a good question. It's not really training to like win, it was more of like I have goals for every single meat that I do. And that's just something that I have as like an athlete mentality. I was a gymnast growing up. So all through, you know, middle school, high school, and I competed at the collegiate level for gymnastics. And it wasn't really thinking about winning, it's what we can do better from meet to meet. And I knew I was in the range of getting the world record. And the meet before, I actually didn't do my best. And it's just kind of like gauging where you're at and making goals for each and every meet that you do. I feel like I didn't fully answer that question, but no, no, you did.

Philip Pape: 3:46

And I'm glad you reframed, like you, you challenged me on how I worded it, which is great because I always ask the leading questions, and you're like, well, it's not really to win, it's to to beat myself and to get better and learn. Do you feel like if you went back in time, if you if you weren't in spitting distance of like actually being competitive, would it have made a difference?

Steph Mager: 4:03

I think, yeah, I think it would have. If I wasn't competitive and I didn't have that mindset, I think that is like the biggest thing you can have as an athlete, as like a competitor, is just mindset is over everything. And if I wasn't close or if I didn't have the eagerness and the ego that I have, I don't think I would have even tried or attempted. And I have tempted it twice.

Philip Pape: 4:28

So and the eagerness or ego, oh, I I like to pull on that string uh because you know, the word ego is an interesting one we can unpack. Eagerness, I could totally understand, like passion and desire. And, you know, some people when we talk about lifting weights to when people are trying to improve their fitness. One of the questions I get is like, well, how how do you get into lifting if you don't enjoy it? Right. Like, and I feel like there is an eagerness you have to have, even if it's cultivated. Did you love this from like the young, like really young age, or did you have to cultivate it?

Steph Mager: 4:58

Um, we didn't really do any of like like compound movements in college for gymnastics. It was mainly like calisthenics, like pull-ups, push-ups, dips, certain things like that, um, which makes sense, right? I wish we did a little bit more compound movements. I wish we squatted more. I wish we did certain things, but I kind of just got into it and I was just naturally strong. I worked at the edge and a couple people were like, oh, you should do a powerlifting meet. Like you're really strong. Like I was like squatting like 315, but I had like really terrible form. I like had no idea what I was doing. I was like, yeah, it's fine. I'm just lifting with the boys. Like, I don't know. It kind of just fell into my lab because I was a personal trainer. And then I lifted every day, and I just started to like it more and more. And I had these like goals. Okay, like if I can do three plates, I'm gonna do three and a quarter, and then okay, I want to do four plates. Like, there are certain things that like it just builds like goals for you, if that makes sense. Like I didn't love it at first, and then I was like, oh my god, I like this is great. Like, I'm good at it, and like I'm gonna continue to like take this home.

Philip Pape: 6:04

Okay, this is this is genius. Let me tell you why. You just said something, build goals for you. It builds goals for you. And what made what that made me think of is you know how so many people are trying to force their behavior change, they're trying to like force force a new habit as opposed to be a person who then the behavior is an expression of that. And and what you just said is like, you know, as you get better at it, because you're doing it, you're doing things that are achievable in the moment that maybe you fell into, like you said, uh, but then it you start to see the success as like evidence of your ability, and then you do it more and more, and now you start to believe it. Exactly, exactly, and then you put funnel that into a goal, which then pushes you even more. So you mentioned ego, though. I do want to touch on that piece of it. What do you mean by that?

Steph Mager: 6:48

So I feel like as soon as you get to like a higher level, you know, everyone says like if you lift heavy, like you're ego lifting, and it's not it's not that's not what I'm talking about. It's more of like the form of like I want to hit a certain number and I want to do it well enough where it's like I can not shut people up, but kind of do that and be like, hey, like listen, like I did it, like this is my number, and I achieved it. And it's more of like a like a proud statement rather than like ego. It's I'm not trying to be egotistical with it. I'm trying to be like, I'm bold and I'm gonna tell you how it is. And it just that's how I feel like my lifting comes across.

Philip Pape: 7:28

Yeah, I think that I think that's great. I think, you know, we use the term external validation sometimes. I was chatting with a friend of mine the other day, and some people seem to be motivated by external validation as they go. Like they're doing it to please somebody. Others do it to please themselves, but then are proud of it and like shout it to the rooftops when they're done. Is that is that kind of what you're getting at?

Steph Mager: 7:49

Um, yeah, I mean, kind of, like, right? Like you, and that's exactly kind of how I felt. But it wasn't even for like everybody else. It was once you hit something like that extraordinary, I feel like people don't realize like you hit a world record and people are like, Are you gonna be in the Guinness World of Records? And I'm like, no, it's just like I wish, that would be cool. But it's an extraordinary feeling. You know, like you're you did it for yourself, and it's that's an internal, you know, validation that I needed. And like it's like an ego for myself. Like it's not like, yes, I posted it and I was very proud of myself. And I'm clapping for myself. Like a lot of I don't know if you saw, I'm gonna go into a tangent. I don't know if you saw the new rules for the new federation, like the very I am not an expert in those rules, trust me. Well, you can't like clap for yourself now and certain things like that. And I'm like, that's like so it's just like so backwards to me because like you should want to clap for yourself. Like you just did like 12 weeks of like prep plus whatever you did to build all of that.

Philip Pape: 8:50

So you can't even like like just involuntarily when you get a lift, be like, all right, you know, just a couple of things.

Steph Mager: 8:55

Like you can't you can't even clap. Like it like that's certain federation, but anyways, that's like the most popular savvy one. But um, hell no, I'm gonna clap for myself and I'm gonna be proud of what I did.

Philip Pape: 9:07

Yeah, we won't even get into like federation rules and and and like white white light white light rules and form rules on barbell, because there's a lot of criticism on some of that. And I get it, I get it. They're trying to be objective, but okay, so so this is a good, like we've we framed, you know, the mental side of it, and I think people are like, okay, Steph, let's talk about how you got there. Like, you know, what are the nuts and bolts of how you got there? And maybe we start with the your training programming and you know, talk about conjugate a little bit because I'm a big fan of that, the max effort, dynamic effort days. Um, one of my coaches is Andy Baker, who co-wrote uh practical programming, you know, the sequel to starting strength. And and he's a big fan of that. And then Louis Simmons and the West Side guys, that's like old school, you know, equipped lifters, you know, it was a whole different beast back then. And I know you personalize and you work with a coach. So let's start. How would you explain conjugate training in layman's terms to the listener?

Steph Mager: 9:59

Yeah, so it's different than obviously linear. Linear, you're progressing like week by week, and you're like you're changing a percent and you're going up and probably going down in reps. Um, conjugate, for an example, where I'm doing it right now, I'm rat pulling at like um like above my knee, like this week, and then the next week I'm going a little bit lower, and then eventually I'll pull from the ground. Like so week by week, like what we're doing is changing. It like the form of um the compound movement itself is changing a little bit, but there's certain like he does it in a way where it's conjugate but linear at the same time. So it's kind of a crossover, which I really enjoy, but I think it works better and like my body responds to it well. He'll throw in different movements week by week. So if we're doing like SSB, like safety squat bar, like the next week it might change or transition to something else the week later and attack a different muscle move or um muscle group. I did notice like your body, it's very taxing. It's very taxing on your body, but it helps build and I think it helps grow from a linear periodization. I think that's completely different because your body's already used to those kinds of movements and then just changing those movements week to week. I think you're just exposing yourself to more muscle growth. And I think it's super beneficial. I also train with a lot of equipped lifters as well, and they all do that similar. Um they do conjugate as well. And I'm with like thousand-pound squatters and I'm like side by side with them, which is like crazy to even say. And they're like benefiting from it too. So it's kind of wild to see, you know, people who do equipped lifting, and then I do raw lifting, and we have similar program, and obviously not the same, but we're both growing. So like I think it works either way.

Philip Pape: 11:59

All right. There's a couple things I want to ask about because just to simplify for the listener, the conjugate method, there's upper or lower upper max effort and lower upper dynamic effort. So it's a four-day split, right? Just so they know. Sorry. No, no, it's okay. It's okay. And we did do an episode a couple in the past about conjugate, so you guys can search the feed for that word and you'll probably find them. Uh, but what I like that you mentioned, so where I've seen one version of conjugate I've seen is kind of the traditional you rotate over like four, six, eight, ten weeks, whatever, through different variations of, let's say, the squat or the deadlift. What you're telling me is there might be one variation of the deadlift, in this case the rack pole, right? Again, which for the listener, just in case they're a little bit newer, is you have pins or spotter arms or pads or boxes or whatever, and and it's it's a partial range of motion uh deadlift from some height off the floor, right? And you're saying that you will do a certain height and then a lower height and then a lower height, and that's the way you rotate through instead of totally different variations of the deadlift.

Steph Mager: 12:58

Yes, yeah. So he'll go in, like these are just different weeks and splits and everything like that. But sometimes like that's just an example for what I have going on this week. Um, and that's kind of the end game of just um having more load at the top. But yeah, we do do a max effort and dynamic um effort as well just to get the volume in. But I've noticed that my body responds better to those max effort days.

Philip Pape: 13:27

Um honestly.

Steph Mager: 13:30

I mean, because I'm looking at it low reps.

Philip Pape: 13:33

Yeah, yeah.

Steph Mager: 13:34

Yeah. And low reps, it's either like you're doing a one RM, two RM, like a three RM, whatever it might might be, and you're just training at like a high intensity. So like those days before you're gonna have to eat better, like just really focus on what you're um doing for your body, like the night of, like a couple days before, um, and just mentally prepare um as well. And you can't have those two days back to back. So if you're doing a like a uh max effort bench day, you're not gonna want to do a max effort deadlift day, let's say the next day. Like you those have to be spaced out in the week. And a lot of times um people don't realize like, yes, there are two different body parts, but you're also like you're taxing your CNS to like the max. So like they have to be like completely like three, four days apart.

Philip Pape: 14:22

So oh, that's interesting. Okay, great. Let's let's talk about that. Because you mentioned a few things about really being intentional preparing for these days, how you eat, how you sleep, right? Which is probably why like a Monday is a good day for some people. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly, yeah. So what are so you do up upper first or lower first for the max?

Steph Mager: 14:40

Um, usually I do upper and then because I I squat with the crew on Friday. So usually I do a max upper day on either Monday or Tuesday, um, usually Monday, and then Friday I'll do my max lower day, um, and then go from there. But the nights before, like I have to really prioritize my sleep, what I'm eating the night before, what I'm eating beforehand. Otherwise, you're not going to set yourself up for success there. And sometimes it really does show during those days. And then I get frustrated.

Philip Pape: 15:14

So yeah, yeah, it makes sense, right? Because like you said, it's so stressful taxing on the nervous system, and people don't realize that. I do like the split we're talking about, though, because I'm more familiar with like a traditional Monday, Tuesday max effort, and then Thursday, Friday dynamic, and the way you're doing it. Again, we're talking elite level, super heavy. You space those apart. So when do the dynamic effort days fall?

Steph Mager: 15:34

Yeah. So either I'll go Monday, Tuesday, so I'll go max effort, and then I'll do a dynamic like lower, and then Wednesday, Thursday, I'll be off. And then Friday, I'll do my another max effort day for my legs and go from there. And then Saturday or Sunday will be my other, my other day. Um so it it just is, I mean, obviously I travel for work. I I'm a gymnastics coach. So I really do have to like strategically place all these different days. Um, but yeah, he definitely does not want me to go back to back with max effort days just because like if I'm banging up my body on Monday, like I'm not gonna be prepared and ready to go for, you know, deadlift on or whatever I'm doing, squat the next day. It's just not gonna, it's not feasible. So you're just doing so much. And maybe a novice definitely could do that. I just definitely don't think that I could do that with just the weight that I'm moving.

Philip Pape: 16:29

Let's go on a tangent. You said a novice, right? And there's always confusion about how we define novice, beginner, early, intermediate, intermediate, advanced. And I know it's it's very dependent and sometimes it's lift dependent, even not even just your overall. What are your what are your thoughts on that?

Steph Mager: 16:44

Um, I yeah, I mean, I definitely think there's different categories. Um, novice meaning you're newer to the sport, you're newer to like one to two years in. Um intermediate, yeah, I think you've done a couple meets under your belt. If we're talking about powerlifting in general, not just like the average person that goes to the gym and is on a powerlifting split or whatever. Intermediate, I think you've done, you know, a couple meets you have under your belt. Advanced side would say that like you put, you know, years under your belt with powerlifting, you kind of have a good, you have experience, you know what you're doing. Not to say that you are handheld as a novice, like some certain things that I still need to be handheld. Um, but that's just, you know, I like to learn, I like to absorb whatever my coach is telling me and then making sure that I'm understanding his feedback. So when people say, yes, I'm an elite lifter, I I am, but I I still, there's so much, so much to learn. And then it's it's not a bad thing ever to be a novice or intermediate. And I think that's where people are like, they're intimidated or whatever. And it's like, there's so much things that I don't even know. And I wish like I just keep going because you know, Hellbent is great because you you learn something new every day. You know, you learn how to, you know, put someone into briefs, you learn how to hold a board, you learn how to, you know, properly do an overload. Like there's just certain things that I'm like, wow, like wouldn't have thought of that. So I've learned so much.

Philip Pape: 18:14

And that's what that's what it's about. I love I love that you said that, right? That wherever you are, wherever you are, listener in your journey, like you're both a novice and you're advanced at some things, and you're always gonna be learning. And and I like stuff you're I I could just sense your energy of like you could teach some of this stuff, but you have a humility of I don't know everything and I want to learn more, and I want to learn more, and it's great. And I'm not and I could also sense that you're not like closed-minded, like even when you've learned something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the only way there could be other ways to no, yeah.

Steph Mager: 18:41

I think there's so many ways. I think I think um if me and you were to work out, like we would if like you're taller than me, if you know, I don't know how tall you are, but like do you know what I'm saying? Like there are certain things that would be like nine and a quarter of your strength.

Philip Pape: 18:57

Let's go with that.

Steph Mager: 18:58

There would be things that were more beneficial and catered to me rather than you know, some things might look different in your program. And I think that's just how it's going to have to be for the person. It's for the lifter.

Philip Pape: 19:11

Yeah, that is true. It's highly personalized, which is one of the things you mentioned when we first connected is you know, how you you take what it is, but you've been successful at personalizing. And personalized isn't just like a coach saying, Here's a personal program. It's actually having to learn about you as you go and see how you react, right? And see how you uh respond. We we talked, we touched a little bit on the max effort stuff. I just want to talk about the dynamic effort really quick because there's confusion about the purpose of it, right? Is it to build like speed and power is to keep the volume in and just like maintain strength? Like, what are your thoughts on the main purpose of dynamic work?

Steph Mager: 19:45

I mean, I think it's more for like the volume purpose for sure. I I think it it could be go both ways, but like I look at as it as more volume and getting more reps done. Um making sure that I'm maintaining that same technique that I'm doing for the max effort. Like they go hand in hand. Right. Because like you want to make sure that your technique, yes, let's say we're benching like 135 or whatever, and we're doing it with good form, we're pausing, we're doing all that on like a dynamic day, and then max effort, they should really look this like very similar. So just making sure that we're staying with the same technique, and it's just to build more muscle, and I think speed and power for sure, but um, I think it's just more volume.

Philip Pape: 20:31

And that's important. I think sometimes volume is like a bad word for some rip people, even when you talk powerlifting, which is which is so weird because you see the best of the best, like know how to maximize that volume. And you know Alex Bromley? He's good uh he's got a YouTube channel, he's he's really nerdy kind of uh powerlifting guy. He's like a more strong man. He has a program called Bull Mastiff that I ran like last year, and the principle is lots and lots of exposure to the lifts and lots and lots of set-based progression, and you're almost you're almost always submaximal in the program until you peek out later on, as if you're if you're gonna do a meet, right? Just which I'm sure is similar to what you do. We could talk about peaking and tapering, but uh until I did that personally, I didn't realize the val how valued just the skill exposure is because it's neuromuscular, even if you're well past newbie gains, you still keep reinforcing that more and more. And I think some of the strength comes from your body's ability to just be efficient. Do you like what are your thoughts on that?

Steph Mager: 21:28

Yeah, I mean, we're you know, I I think you're like you're you hit the nail on the head there. Like, I just think that's like totally accurate. You're you want to make sure that you're hitting, you know, volume. You can't just hit max effort days and expect growth. That's especially for a female, like we've learned, and um, there's been a lot of studies with um volume for bench. Um, and my coach has kind of like digged a little bit deeper into that, where we usually, if I'm on an off season, I might do five days where I Three upper days and two lower days just to hit a little bit more and gain a little bit more strength, especially like triceps and back. But just the more volume you're doing and the more exposure to like the technique, the compound movement itself, like the better you are going to be and you're setting yourself up for success on those next ever days.

Philip Pape: 22:20

And do you use uh like accommodating resistance or do you more just do it with the the set sets and rep scheme? Like do you use chains and bands? Sorry. I love to use the big words. Yeah, I'm like the technical terms, I know. I know.

Steph Mager: 22:35

Um yeah, no, we use chains, um, chains, bands, um, we do deficits, we do, we do like every everything you know, West Side has done. We do that. Um, like right now, I'm going into like just recently I hit um with 80 pounds of chains. We do that on per bench. Um trying to think what else I do. Yeah, I'm using like the Mars bars today. Like there's just certain things that um, you know, it's terrible torture, but it's fine. Um yeah, I think those help with just like the overload at the top. Um, a lot of people sometimes are against that. I personally think that it's helped me, especially going into prep. Um, and we do a lot of reverse bands um as well going into prep and in prep as well. So if we're doing like a max, you I think it's three or four weeks out, we do um like what we were supposed to hit at the meet. So if I was supposed to hit 515, I would hit it with a reverse band just for a little bit less um strain. Um, so you're not killing your CNF.

Philip Pape: 23:45

And that's and that's where the bands hanging from the top. Yeah, yeah.

Steph Mager: 23:49

I mean, they really don't take that much off, you know, because you're it's a band with 500 pounds on it. You know what I'm saying? Like it's like a little micro band, like the little orange ones. Like they're really not doing much, but it gives you a little bit of leeway. Uh yeah, and at the top, like it's giving you the most. So once you hit it at the bottom, it's it you can't feel anything.

Philip Pape: 24:10

So that's interesting. And what would you recommend to people who have either a home gym or a you know, kind of a typical gym where they maybe don't have all the bells and whistles for dynamic? Like what's you know, should should they should they use the tempo, like just slow eccentric expenses?

Steph Mager: 24:26

I mean, yeah, tempo, pause squats. I think I I think tempo is a great, great one. Um, just to build up that. It's very similar. Um, a lot of the time I honestly bought my own bands when I went to like the edge and stuff, and you can just buy that off of the lead. And I did that. So I and you can usually hook them up just fine with any other bench. Um, but I think tempo, pausing, um, and a lot of these gyms don't have like specialty bars, so like you won't have like the duffalo bar or anything like that. But you can still do heavy overloads at the top, even if you're just holding, like if you're benching and you're, you know, let's say you're 225 bencher, if you you know, overload 285, 275 at the top and just do heavy holds. That's a good one too that I've done. Um, and same thing with you're doing like back squat heavy holds as well.

Philip Pape: 25:19

Nice, nice. No, this is good because uh we we we always want to give people options because otherwise they'll make excuses like, oh, I have to, you know, Steph said this is the way you do it, right? And I don't know. Yeah, right.

Steph Mager: 25:28

No, yeah, there's definitely like you've got you gotta get creative.

Philip Pape: 25:31

Yeah.

Steph Mager: 25:32

Um, and you know, especially with like if I'm going on, you know, travel, travel gyms and I'm going down to Vegas this weekend. Um, so it's like, how am I gonna get my my lift done if it's not my home gym? Um, you gotta get creative. So certain things like that, I'll I'll ask my coach and be like, and he usually is the brainst behind it, and he's like, okay, do this instead, or like, let's sub this for this. So if I don't have like an SSB, like I'll I'll be doing something else, probably a front squat, whatever.

Philip Pape: 26:02

Yeah, and I encourage everyone listening. If you have a it's good to have a training partner, if you don't have a coach, having a training partner who's kind of right around your level of knowledge, who can like challenge you to think creatively, right? I've got a I've got a friend we could message each other and he's like, Okay, I got a pec deck revert, and I'm doing reverse rear delts. I'm like, well, try it this way, you know? And okay, you know.

Steph Mager: 26:22

Absolutely. I think well, it just makes it easier, and you're like, oh yeah, I wouldn't have thought of that. Like, okay, and maybe I can add this. So it just it it makes it easier because I mean, he'll he can just come up with things on the fly, and I'm like, I don't know how you thought of that.

Philip Pape: 26:36

I know, I know.

Steph Mager: 26:37

Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 26:39

All right, so I know D-loads is one thing we wanted to talk about as well that you know have a lot of misunderstanding around it. And maybe just start maybe we start by what aren't people doing wrong with D loads, and then how do you use D-Loads?

Steph Mager: 26:52

Yeah. Okay, so my D load I think looks a little bit different than a f a regular power lifting person. Um, I think it's just I it works better for me, so I don't touch a barbell during a D load. I don't do any like thing that's like he wants to completely like make sure that my CNS is recovered. So when I do go back, and I think that's when I go go back to lifting the next week, I think that goes hand in hand with like those max effort days. Like he wants to make sure that I'm prioritizing how I feel, how my body's, you know, handling all of this stress. But that's that's my way of deloading. I think a lot of deloads I've seen, people are still struggling and doing like 75%, 80% of their max and calling it a D load. And I'm like, I don't know what we're doing here. Um, like you're still you're you're still struggling. Like that's it, you're you're not doing what your body needs you to do. If you continuously stress and stress and tax your body repeatedly for, you know, eight weeks, however long your program is for, like there's you're doing yourself a disservice, basically. And by week seven or eight, like the end of your program, you're really not gonna see a lot of change because you didn't have you know a fresh CNS to like be like, okay, like a D-load supposed to help you, and you're supposed to like it's like it's not like a band-aid, but it's something to help you get prepared for the next week to come. And a lot of people abuse their D-loads and don't take it seriously. And I'm like, no, it's it's like I love my D-Load week. I'm like, let's go. I can I don't feel you know, sometimes I do feel still sore because the program changes in itself. So it's if I'm not doing barbell movement, I'm still pushing heavy weights, just more dumbbell. So I still feel a little bit sore, but it's not a sore where I'm not squatting 500 pounds.

Philip Pape: 29:01

Okay, I love this, right? Because it is true there's a lot of confusion about D loads. For some people, it's like, okay, I'm gonna drop everything by 10% load. Okay, but you're still doing everything. Or I cut out some exercises or cut out some movements, or go down from four days to two days, or whatever. And and and granted, if it's less than you were doing before, it is some less stress, but it may not be enough to over to recover everything from the accumulation of fatigue. I like that you said I don't touch a barbell, I do some heavy dumbbell work, and people abuse their deloads. Like right there, you just hit on all the myths of D-Loads. So, what does it look like for somebody, just the average person principle-wise, they don't have to be like give specific protocol, but like if they're doing traditional powerlifting style or strength style lifting, what would they change to during a deload for lifting? But and then also maybe for their lifestyle and or nutrition.

Steph Mager: 29:50

Yeah, I mean, I think the you're saying what would what does it tip?

Philip Pape: 29:55

What are your principles? What are your rules of a good deal d a good deload for somebody?

Steph Mager: 29:59

Well, I think it should be 60% is like the highest. I'm almost positive that's what it is, and lower. And I'm not seeing that being relayed on the social media platforms that I follow. So a lot of people kind of just go into the gym and I think coaches get confused or they are. I think a lot of it has to do with not with ego lifting, but if they're trying to hit a max, let's say by the end of the program, they're trying to hit like a 600-pound squat or whatever, and they're just increasing their number. So I think a lot of that is just miscommunication between athlete and coach, where they're um not doing the numbers they're being prescribed. And maybe that's where like the D-load is like not being translated well, and they're doing a heavier D load than the coach anticipated it. But that's that's my hope is that they're like they're not being like the coach isn't providing them with like a 75% or 80% um deload. I think personally that the way that I do it, I think it's the best way for my body could be, you know, like my husband has like still does deloads, he's a power lifter as well, but he still trains with a barbell. That's like the very typical um way to do it. And you just go down to a certain percentage. And I think your your nutrition does change, I think, during that time. Um, it's kind of like a recovery, but you're still I I personally eat a little bit more during that time. And amen.

Philip Pape: 31:38

That's uh listen up, people. It's not the time to be dieting more just because you're taking off a little bit of a break. You gotta recover. Yes.

Steph Mager: 31:46

Yeah, you have to recover. And um, so yeah, my maintenance calories is like at 2,000 or something like that. I try to up it a little bit. I up my protein. I'm really more focused on, you know, my water intake during this time. And like instead of switching it over to powerlifting, you know, on the lifting side, I'm more focused and geared towards what I'm eating, what I'm putting in my body, how I'm stretching, how I'm like the just mobility at that, at the end, at the core of it all.

Philip Pape: 32:14

So and do you do you do any more of anything? Like, do you do more walking or anything like that?

Steph Mager: 32:19

Yeah, we he does, yeah. He makes me do um, yeah. Uh he makes me do a stare master like three times um during that week. So certain things like that. Yeah, a little bit. And then the when I say heavy dumbbells, it's not like I'm not doing for like max effort. It's usually like for 10s, like it's like, you know, three by ten, you know, during that time, but enough where I'm like kind of straining at 10, but not like I'm not just using 20s. Do you know what I'm saying?

Philip Pape: 32:48

So like of course, yeah, and you're still hitting that um sub-max, but still heavy load. Yeah, yeah.

Steph Mager: 32:53

Right.

Philip Pape: 32:54

Yeah, cool. No, no, that's good. It's funny because I I'll be recording an episode, a solo episode about D loads. I think it'll come out around the time this comes out. Um, and and uh probably address our conversation here because you know, you're obviously you're a pro at this and you're trying to recover maybe more than some because you are constantly peaking and you're not just trying to slow roll it like many, like many of us might be. And it's important to understand that because myths are like uh how do I eat? I I know some people complain who who have like not body image issues, but like that could be weird changes during a deal of the week. Like, do you notice anything with your fluid retention or your physique or anything like that, or do you not care about that stuff?

Steph Mager: 33:32

Um, I don't really see a huge difference with any of that. Maybe I like I feel a little bit different and I just think that your bot your body's constantly changing, I feel like, especially in how especially for me at least. Maybe I feel a little bit more bloated during a D-load week, but that's because I'm just trying to, you know, pound in as much water as I possibly can and just to recover. But I'm not really like analyzing it, you know, every day. I just am like, this is this is the step to be successful and the next week I'll feel better. So yeah, I try to kind of ignore that um and just kind of know that it's it's the process of the process.

Philip Pape: 34:14

Yeah. And do you uh program in the D loads or are they dependent kind of on certain biofeedback or like how you feel or anything?

Steph Mager: 34:22

He's I mean, he still programs what I'm supposed to be doing. I definitely if there's something that's like hurting me more, or if I'm like really, like really abused, like something's like really not feeling great, he says, okay, like let's nix that and let's sub zit for this. Like we just kind of it's basically communicating with your coach and just kind of figuring out what you know works best. So I think feedback between one another is like oh in open communication is like super beneficial.

Philip Pape: 34:53

Cool. And is there um because some people say, you know, only use a D load when you think you need it, but then I think that's sometimes too late, you know? So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steph Mager: 35:02

No, no, no. It's definitely programmed in. Um usually the D load is like every four weeks or um, usually, and I usually get one in every eight week span. So like usually the fourth week is my D-load week. Same with meet prep as well. Like we'll have a you know, a D-load week going into meet prep in meat prep as well. So before I get into meet prep, it's usually the week before, and then during meat prep, there's at least one or two.

Philip Pape: 35:29

Cool. So when you back when you reverse engineer from the meat all the way back, is there a certain set of uh a couple different cycles in there, like building the volume and then peaking? Uh, how does that look like for you?

Steph Mager: 35:42

So he yeah, he has a whole we have a usually it's a 10-week meat prep, and it's we I follow the same ones that like the equip lifters are using right now. So like, and obviously it works, right? Like the system works. And so we do like a what do they call it? Um basically you're just doing like a it's called a circumax, and you're doing like heavy overloads, you're doing um, and every week it looks a little bit different. You're either going heavier, you're reducing band tension, you're and then you're eventually going into like openers, and then like last final warm-up, and then a deload, kind of just doing mobility, and then you're at meat.

Philip Pape: 36:27

Okay, yeah, just as easy as that, and then you get a world record.

Steph Mager: 36:30

And then you get a world record. No, uh no, it just, I mean, I've been doing that kind of that style for I don't know, I've been with him for three or four years now. So I think every meet it looks a little bit different. There are certain things that he's like, okay, like you benefit a little bit more from like deficit deadlifts than you do from the floor. And honestly, the last meet prep I've I did only did deficits to like just help build it and be faster off the floor. And I didn't even, I think maybe at my opener I used, I didn't use the deficit, but there are certain things that I use that was a little bit different from like other athletes and other clients that he had.

Philip Pape: 37:10

So and that's the personalization, right? You find out what helps you move. Um, and that you know, encourage the listener, right, to be able to finally understand your body, but also look at the numbers, right? I know Steph, you're you're bigot probably into measuring everything and understanding, you know, how things progress. I mean, how did you determine that specific one, for example, that you responded better to the deficits?

Steph Mager: 37:33

I mean, they're just they're just faster off the floor. Um, he even said he was like, wow, you're like, it's weird that you're like so good at like in a deficit then. And I'm like, everyone says that. Um, but off the floor, I think that it's just like a little bit harder. You have to be a little bit more patient rather than deficits, like it's just a little bit easier. I can get into the position a little bit better. But like rack pulls, I'm like terrible at. And like people would think that's like easier for you know anybody because you have more overload. You're already like, you're already above the above the knee, like you have to stand up with it. And it's like, nope, it's not that simple for me. I'd rather just take it lower than it has to be.

Philip Pape: 38:13

I know I've seen that. I've seen some people where their rack pull can't even exceed their deadlift. And I don't know if you know, and people, oh no, that's not possible. It should, because here are the biomechanics, and it's like you said, overloading. Everybody's biology is a little different, your ratios are different, where you're stronger is different, right?

Steph Mager: 38:27

Yeah. So I think he just kind of sees what works, what doesn't, um, how I respond better to it. Even when I so I didn't do my best meet, I think it was six weeks before, and I was planning to hit the world record at that meet, and I obviously didn't, I didn't do very well at that meet. Um, and I signed up that night for the one in October. And the way that he programmed, he was like, Okay, we're gonna change this, we're gonna change. Like, I don't like, I don't think we did a lot of reverse band stuff. He wanted me to just like make sure that I was hitting like a raw squat without any bands, just so I could kind of mentally and physically feel what 500 pounds feels like on my back and just like hit it and be confident. So I think there are certain things that we did in those six weeks where it was like, okay, let's let's game change, let's like fix what's you know, what's the issue and let's go and attack it.

Philip Pape: 39:26

So attack it. All right. And as you're attacking all this stuff, you need to fuel to do that attacking. I think that's a segue into nutrition because I think where we can start maybe start from stuff is like what your schedule looks like, periodization, like what you know, you have your meat, you have the 10-week prep. Is it is your off-season right before that? And you meet you do like three meets a year, or how many meets a year do you use?

Steph Mager: 39:49

Usually I only do one meeting. Oh, just one meet a year. Okay. Yeah. Sometimes I mean more novice lifters will do more. My body can only really handle one meet. Um, you're just building so much. And if whenever you really feel strong enough for you, you're like, okay, like I I'm at my strongest peak, I can I can handle it. And usually I compete around September, October. For some reason, that's where my body feels like the most strong. Um, you're coming, you're coming off of like summer where you're, you know, I feel like in the summer, especially for for women, I think we lean out a little bit and you're eating more fruits for more vegetables. Everything is a little bit more, it's just easier. I feel like in the summer or the winter, it's kind of the opposite, especially with the holidays, we're we're not um as mindful, I guess. Um, food's everywhere.

Philip Pape: 40:38

Yeah, it's a good time to bulk.

Steph Mager: 40:40

So it's a great time to bulk, yeah. Um, but yeah, no, I mainly focus on um, especially when it comes to nutrition, at eating over 185 grams of protein a day. And that's like my main, if I'm not really I eat basically the same thing every day just to keep it easy. Um, I know that's boring, but it's what it what's what works. And if we're just maintaining like it's just super easy, and then I cut back on like certain certain things going into meat season. So if I am, let's say if I'm 184 or 185, like I know how to easily transition that to 181. So I'm I can weigh in and it not be a problem. So yeah, usually in the summer though, I'm it's not a problem. Usually I'm weighing at 175, anyways. Um but the more that I eat and like especially protein, the more full I am anyways. So and I don't ever have a problem with feeling hungry or wanting to I I don't know, I'm not trying to cheat or doing anything like crazy. It's not like I'm I'm not against like eating ice cream any other day, like whatever. It's just being mindful of like, okay, where are we at with my protein? And like that's my main concern. I'm not concerned with like the calories as much until we're in meat prep. Yeah. And then it's just mostly like how, how am I benefiting myself every day? How am I setting myself up for success every day? If especially if I don't hit what I'm supposed to hit for my protein goals, like I I feel like I'm doing myself like a disservice because I'm not growing my muscle. I'm not, you know, that's just how I feel.

Philip Pape: 42:25

And it makes sense. And and at your weight, like, so funny thing is, I'm I'm about your weight, but with way less, you know, muscle and strength. Uh but hey, I'm 45. I started this when I was 40, I'm working on it. Um but and and I try to get around 180 protein a day, too. And we talk about the target of like, you know, 0.701 grams per pound is kind of your minimum for most people. And the so two questions I have that came to mind. One is you mentioned hunger. We just did a whole series on hunger, and the most recent, one of the most recent episodes was about how strength training helps with your hunger signals, and also having muscle mass helps with your hunger signals. Do you find that that is partly what's going on here because you're athlete an athlete? Yeah.

Steph Mager: 43:06

Yeah, I'm sure. I'm I can't like I ate probably at like nine or ten this morning. I had probably 50 to 60 grams in my breakfast alone, and I'm like, I'm ready to go. I'm gonna probably fuel up, have like a yogurt um and something before the gym today, but like I'm not like overly hungry. I'm not like, oh my God, like I I could eat, but I'm not, I'm not starving to the point where I don't know, I like I need food. And I think that just comes alone with like fueling your body right. If you're fueling it with like fast food and things that aren't very nutritious, like I think that it's very easier, it's easy to be more hungry. And that's just how your body I think works. If you're eating full and nutrient dense foods, you're you're setting yourself up for success, but you're also like your body handles it better.

Philip Pape: 43:55

And how have you noticed your metabolism change? Like, so you're 28, is that right? And so let's say from the time you were 18 to now, have you noticed?

Steph Mager: 44:03

Oh my god, it's so much different.

Philip Pape: 44:05

How is it different?

Steph Mager: 44:07

Um, I think as an athlete, I think, especially when I was 18, like I was eating whatever I wanted and I just thought it was like fine. I was like, I'm gonna burn it off. Like I would eat like Nutella and a banana before practice. And I was like, yeah, this is fine. Um, and I but I would eat like a lot. And um I think once I was like 22, I was like, wow, like I'm not, I'm not handling this well. I'm very tired or like going into practice. I was, I I felt like I was crashing like during practice. Um and I was like, okay, like I have to change what I'm eating. And as soon as I changed a little bit of what I was eating, I didn't feel as tired. I felt like I was I had more energy. I my skin looked better. There, there's so many benefits to eating better and healthier that I wish I, you know, realized when I was an athlete in college, because probably would have helped. But um, you know, especially like the dining hall food there, like there's just, you know, certain things that I couldn't even, I couldn't buy food if I wanted to. So um it was limited, but I could have made like healthier choices. So I wasn't crashing out during practice. So are you saying that now that you're eating better being older, your metabolism seems more efficient or um, I I think my metabolism obviously slows like slowed down. Like I think it's harder for me to get back on track. I think that's just women in general. I think if we we hold on to like a lot, like a lot of fat, and especially after the holidays, I think it's really hard for our bodies to like continuously work the way that they used to when we were younger. So it's it's definitely hard. So I that's why I eat the same thing every day. So I don't have to worry about that. Um and it's just I've noticed that my metabolism works better the way if I'm just at this the same maintenance calories and I'm doing everything the same. Um, otherwise, if I kind of change that, I do notice a little bit more fat or I notice like the, you know, my weights going up, certain things like that. And even though I am lifting heavy, uh, it's not a huge difference, but I I notice it. So I think it's still hard, but it's not something that you can't dial back, you know.

Philip Pape: 46:20

So yeah, no, we want to be realistic about it. And I know there's a lot of listeners, especially women who they've they've done a lot of dieting, right, in their life and and probably haven't had the same exact trajectory as you. Maybe they want to get into lifting and building muscle. And I'm and I ask these questions to kind of balance like the benefits of it as well as the realities of it, right? And it's you still have to be intentional and strike, it's not like it solves every problem, but you still have to Right, yeah.

Steph Mager: 46:44

I mean, lifting's not gonna solve all your problems. Like you can't eat like a McDonald's cheeseburger and then go lift 400 pounds and expect to be like skinny and fit or have abs or whatever. It's really about what you're eating in the kitchen and how you're setting yourself up, and it actually helps you lift better as well. So it kind of goes hand in hand.

Philip Pape: 47:04

That and that's important, right? Going back to the identity thing we started with, it's like you eat well because you want to and it feels good and like helps you. It's not that you're forcing yourself very miserable, and like you said, you can still enjoy indulgences like like flexibility. Yep.

Steph Mager: 47:18

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 47:19

So then what about your periodization? Like you mentioned, you mainly focus on protein and then you kind of maintain your weight. Do you do intentional building or cutting phases at all, or is it just kind of in that window?

Steph Mager: 47:30

Um, it's I'm mostly in that window of where if I'm I'm not really bulking or cutting, I feel like I'm I like a maintenance, and then if I have to cut a little bit, May, June, July is kind of the time where one of those months I'll you know be more focused in on, okay, let's cut back here. There's a little bit like and it's not like a huge cutback, which like a lot of people, like if you're at a 2,000, you know, maintenance calorie, some people think you have to make these major jumps and go and cut down to 1,500. That's not how that's not realistic. And you're you're hurting yourself by doing that. So it's just small, like very small, um, like 50 to 100 calories a week is what we're working with if we're chipping things away. And that might look like just reducing the amount of rice intake at lunch or dinner, just certain things like that. So yeah, I would say my resting weight is usually 185. And then going into meat season, if I'm if I'm heavier than I'm, you know, anticipating, I'll definitely be a little bit more um just measuring a little bit better and being more focused and dialed into what I'm eating so that you know it reflects that I'm I'm losing a little bit more each week. And after just doing those small little tweaks, it works.

Philip Pape: 48:53

And then for the listener, if we put this on your calendar, you're saying you do that around the summer months and then your meets usually in the fall. So now you're set up to kind of maintain or even slightly build and support your peaking, right?

Steph Mager: 49:06

So exactly. And that's and that's the main thing too. It's not like I'm not rushing and I'm not doing this in a in a crazy way.

Philip Pape: 49:12

Water water cuts and stuff like that, right? Yeah.

Steph Mager: 49:14

And and people do do that. And it's but certain people who I've I've noticed if you're water cutting, you know, 10 to 15 pounds, like I was at a I was at a meet in Chicago and we're on weigh-ins. I just had like a burrito bowl before I before I weighed in because I was at 175. So I'm like, I can handle this. Like I I have like six pounds. I'll eat a burrito. I'm ready to go. There's people shaking, there's people looking like pale. And like John Hack was there, and he was like, you couldn't even recognize like him at all. Like, even my husband was like, who, like, he does not look like well at all. And then the refeed he did, so like, you know, there was you know, IV bags and like the lobby and stuff. It was crazy. It was wild. I was like, I can't believe this is real life right now. But I'm like glad it really can deteriorate performance too. Like if you're taking all of that weight off and then you know, refeeding the next day, it can alter how you're, you know, you perform. And I don't want to even, you know, think about that. So I I just make sure that I'm, you know, doing it week by week, losing whatever I need to, the four or five pounds that might alter my performance. So uh week to week I just make sure that I'm prioritizing it in May, June, or July. And so I guess I'm set for September.

Philip Pape: 50:39

Yeah, I'm glad you're doing it the right way, because we do hear a lot of stories these days, like both in powerlifting and in uh physique, you know, competitors with like sodium manipulation and you know, deaths from people like just putting their body to the extreme limit that's not healthy. It's good that you do it that way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so I I did want to ask you right before we wrap up, is like I'm sure you've had some difficult times, and you know, you've talked about bombing out of a meat. Like, I guess what what's the hardest moment you had, but then also what did you learn from it?

Steph Mager: 51:10

I would say the hardest moment I had uh was not hitting the world record the first time, and that was in September. So that was, I don't know, six months ago now. I I oh I was I was a mess. I was crying, I was, but I was I wasn't mad about how I did. It was it was more like I built this up in my head, like, oh, I I had it, you know, I was so confident I was gonna hit it. And I think it needed to happen because, you know, there are certain things in training that I could have done better. I wasn't prioritizing certain things, um, like sleep and how I was eating. There was a lot of mental warfare going on in my head as well. And I constantly kept thinking, like, what if this happens? What if that happens? What if I let this person down? And I think once I shifted how I was feeling and being like, okay, I failed, like it, it just wasn't there that day. I signed up that day and I said, I'm not finished. There's I'm going to get it. And, you know, I had this conversation with my coach and he was like, Are you sure? Like, is this something that you like? He's like, I don't know if it's a great idea, you know, to, you know, go from one meet and then six weeks later, like go into another. He's like, but if you're if you're sure, then I said, I'm 100% sure. I'm 100% locked in. And I was like, you just like I was dialed in. I I showed up to the gym on time. I I didn't leave until I was finished. Like there were certain things that I was just, I was hungry for to win. And that's I think, you know, losing and feeling some, not something being taken away from me, but like there was a opportunity that I didn't I didn't hit. And I kind of left it out there for others to take. And I was like, no, like that's mine, I'm gonna take it. And so just being dialed in, I think, and that locked in for those six weeks, I think just made me more competitive. And um I definitely learned a lot from that experience. And I am going to take what I learned and build it for the next, you know, world record or um the next attempt.

Philip Pape: 53:21

So I think that's awesome because when you said six months ago, the listeners like, oh, that's that's nothing, right? It's only six months ago, right? And and yet it was this devastating moment. And I think I think of the the analogy of like when you fall on your face, you're still moving forward or something, or like you know, failing forward, I think you you call it. Uh the idea that you're just you're hungry. And even though you said you do one meat a year, I like that you're like, no, this this time I'm doing the second one as soon as I can, because I can't wait, right?

Steph Mager: 53:47

Yeah, I I was I was so dead set. I was like, nope, like you're not taking this away from me. I'm signing up. I just knew I had it within me, and it was just like a like a mental game for myself. And I think losing and and failing just taught me how to be more resilient and to come back.

Philip Pape: 54:06

So resilient, yeah. And I bet just doing all the hard things you do every day, also making resilient stuff. We we are inspired by that. So, anybody listening, like, think about some of these lessons, you know, not just doing the hard things, but maybe setting for yourself a goal, setting for yourself up if it is competitive and if it's a meet, but even if it's just something else that's like, all right, now I gotta make it happen, right? Six weeks from now, ten weeks from now, whatever it is, as as long as it's not like unrealistic extreme, you know, like trying to lose 50 pounds or something.

Steph Mager: 54:33

Yeah, exactly.

Philip Pape: 54:35

All right, so this has been awesome. I I always like to ask this of some of our guests, and that is, is there anything you wish I had asked? And if so, what's your answer?

Steph Mager: 54:44

I don't think there's anything specific that I think you do. I think we kind of hit on all of the topics. I think maybe the only thing is having an athlete mindset going into like a sport like powerlifting, let's say bodybuilding or anything like that. I think just having that mentality kind of drives the sport a little bit harder. So, you know, my coach is was a former baseball player, I was a gymnast. There are certain mentalities that, you know, coexist from how we played as an athlete, and we're like, okay, we're gonna take that same mindset and like of winning and of just prioritizing the sport itself. And I think that's like a little bit different compared to someone that didn't have that growing up. But you can still have that same mindset. It's just a little bit harder because I think there's things that we've learned as like athletes and growing up and like just failures and all of those things, um, failures, winnings that have can kind of just made us successful and just who we are as athletes. So I think that just the mindset thing.

Philip Pape: 55:57

The mindset thing of being an athlete. So if somebody isn't doesn't have the athlete background, like you said, is any thoughts on how they could start to cultivate that?

Steph Mager: 56:05

Yeah, I mean, I think um being in a group setting. So especially in like the gym, if like you have someone that is like you rely on like a gym partner, a coach, I think just being in a group setting is like the best thing that you can rely on one another, you can push each other. You're there for each other when you know one's having a great day, you're not having a great day, you kind of lift each other out and you equal each other out. Um, I always lift with either my coach or like the team, and like we just cultivate this energy to make sure we're pushing each other harder.

Philip Pape: 56:38

I love that. Uh, no truer words have been spoken. I mean, guys, I wouldn't be where I am without coaches, mentors, teachers, um, therapists, uh, doctors, like like the whole team behind you, training partners, groups, Facebook groups, whatever, seek it out. Be among people that are like eager and have a positive ego, like Steph. Yes. Bring it full circle for whatever your goal is. So, all right, love it. So, Steph, uh, where can people find you, look you up, or reach out to you?

Steph Mager: 57:08

Yeah, they can look me up on my Instagram. It's um Steph M Fit. Yeah, but I mean, I Facebook doesn't have, I'm not like as updated on my Facebook, but um my Instagram for sure.

Philip Pape: 57:22

At Stephm.fit. And with that, Steph, this has been awesome. Like it was a surprise even meeting you, so it was great to have you on the show to talk about your training. And I'm wishing you the best with everything to come. I know you're gonna continue to be successful.

Steph Mager: 57:37

Thank you so much for having me.